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Milena Lanordes
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Posted - 2009.12.31 00:12:00 -
[61]
I'm not posting much, but i'm reading MD regulary. To me Ji's audit looks just fine. If there is no proof of the 30 bil satane/sextrader claimed he made, what else are you expecting Ji to report? If it was made on another account, it's not Ji's fault if the OP didn't hand him out the right API.
But however there's something really weird about satane's/sextrader's contract history. If you take a look at his and his corps history in game, you won't find much transactions during the last few days. But if you take a look at the pics he provided (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1240144&page=4#93), there are a lot.
So either it's photoshopped (doesn't looks like to me, but i'm no expert at these kind of things) or there's some bug.
I searched through the contracts manually and there are indeed some buy and sell orders from him as he claimed. And these are no private contracts, so they must show up in his contracts history. But they don't.
Feel free to take a look on your own if you don't believe me.
Maybe it's that what caused wrong numbers in Ji's audit? Could be a possibility, but maybe i'm just wrong.
But please note, i'm not saying this isn't a scam. Tbh i can't tell if it is one or not.
The only thing i can tell for sure is, sextrader did a lot trading in last spring. I can tell this because he was my competitor at this time and i kept an eye on him.
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Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
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Posted - 2009.12.31 14:29:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Ji Sama on 31/12/2009 14:31:10
 Quote:
Edited by: Ji Sama on 29/12/2009 02:38:47
I can see all his current contracts, buy and sell.
His total NAV incl. contracts, is below 2B ISK.
25% of this NAV comes from selling 2 PLEX's
EDIT: When I say his, I am talking about the CORP and Santane!
Total NAV incl contracts on the time of the audit was between 1.5B and 2B
As stated 25% of that NAV is from selling 2 PLEX, 20%+/- was from investments and loans issued here in december.
I don't know if people expect me to correct the OP!
But the OP states that he had more than 2.1B up in contracts and that was simply not true, as I manually calculated the contract orders in real time.
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The AEther
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.12.31 16:33:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Milena Lanordes
I searched through the contracts manually and there are indeed some buy and sell orders from him as he claimed. And these are no private contracts, so they must show up in his contracts history. But they don't.
Feel free to take a look on your own if you don't believe me.
Maybe it's that what caused wrong numbers in Ji's audit? Could be a possibility, but maybe i'm just wrong.
It's a known bug. Happens to older characters with a lot of contract history. Beyond a certain point their most recent contracts stop showing to the public, but the owner of the character can pull them up up no problem and take a screenshot. However, all of the contracts transactions, all of the broker fees, taxes, deposits, bids, and claims, etc. get registered in wallet journal so this bug should not have interfered in any way with the audit.
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satane
Amarr
EVE Corporation49487
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Posted - 2009.12.31 22:12:00 -
[64]
Apologese I didnt read its correctly but obvously there is a bug,
When you didnt find the 2.1bil on contracts did you only look at contracts issued by me what about my corperation buy orders?
sex
Signature graphics that may only contain your character name, corporation logo, corporation or personal slogan or other text that is directly related to your in-game persona, or content directly related to Eve Online. All content must be in good taste. Applebabe |
Katiana Swan
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Posted - 2009.12.31 22:46:00 -
[65]
After careful consideration I will be investing 40m
I have read all associated threads and have watched the 12 minute film uploaded by Satane. It clearly shows hundreds if not thousands of contracts. At first I thought it may be doctored however these contracts were continuously issued over a 9 month period almost daily.
Satane has been nothing but accomodating in trying to get the information out even going so far to upload the film. I dot believe the audit was incorrect just that it wasn't able to be completed sufficiently due to a bug on ccp's side.
I would be happy to start a trial account and join satanes Corp to verify the contracts were legitimate if he gave me permission to do so. I would be able to study individual contracts in much more detail to ensure they were legitimate, but this isn't a requirement of my investing. I believe this would clear up some inconsistencies and questions raised but is up to satane.
I do believe satane did have 30b at one point and that it was used to purchase a 30b character. I would recommend satane activate this character and post here with it to confirm it is his. Further, we could check the our purchased characters API to confirm it did recieve 30b as payment as well as who the funds were recieved from.
To me it looks like satane is trying to get back in the contracts game after losing a large portion of his operations capital after purchasing the character.
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taylor04
Caldari
Galactic Spanning Federation
Intergalactic Mining and Production
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Posted - 2010.01.01 00:29:00 -
[66]
Confirming that this is my main my other character is sextrader (satane) i hope this clrs a few more thing up for you
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Awesome Trader
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Posted - 2010.01.01 00:41:00 -
[67]
And this is my alt trader i bought him with,
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F90OEX
F9X
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.01.01 21:58:00 -
[68]
Originally by: The AEther
Originally by: Milena Lanordes
I searched through the contracts manually and there are indeed some buy and sell orders from him as he claimed. And these are no private contracts, so they must show up in his contracts history. But they don't.
Feel free to take a look on your own if you don't believe me.
Maybe it's that what caused wrong numbers in Ji's audit? Could be a possibility, but maybe i'm just wrong.
It's a known bug. Happens to older characters with a lot of contract history. Beyond a certain point their most recent contracts stop showing to the public, but the owner of the character can pull them up up no problem and take a screenshot.
This is correct, CCP have never done anything about it. Contract history is bugged. I first noticed it when I would get convo's from people asking how come it shows the last public contract I did was months ago. Fact is I did 20+ public contracts that very day. It is a +1year old problem
"older characters with a lot of contract history"
This is the key = buggy contract history
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.01.01 22:00:00 -
[69]
Edited by: RAW23 on 01/01/2010 22:05:49
nvm
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satane
Amarr
EVE Corporation49487
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Posted - 2010.01.01 22:05:00 -
[70]
we live together so shouldnt be a problem but i guess it may be so i wont be letting him use the account :)
Thanks f9 for verifiying the contract bug
Remember if you buy in now you can still recieve youre 5% this sunday 00:00,
-sex
Signature graphics that may only contain your character name, corporation logo, corporation or personal slogan or other text that is directly related to your in-game persona, or content directly related to Eve Online. All content must be in good taste. Applebabe |
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Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.01.01 22:21:00 -
[71]
Originally by: satane
Thanks f9 for verifiying the contract bug
The contract bug does not explain the missing wallet entries though!!! Where are those at?
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satane
Amarr
EVE Corporation49487
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Posted - 2010.01.01 22:27:00 -
[72]
I cant go back to the beggining of this year on my wallet ji sama cannot see any transaction from the beggining of the year but in the video its clearly show me dealing with loads of contracts now when you set up contracts and buy orders there will be dedction in youre wallet for tax etc, but still i cannot see them and ji sama didnt either
so This clearly shows that there is a BUG maybe its becouse ive been inactive for a while? tbh i dont know,
-sex
Signature graphics that may only contain your character name, corporation logo, corporation or personal slogan or other text that is directly related to your in-game persona, or content directly related to Eve Online. All content must be in good taste. Applebabe |
Katiana Swan
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Posted - 2010.01.02 05:03:00 -
[73]
Hi Satane I have wired 40m for shares as was advised. Looking forward to seeing how you go, best of luck.
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Cygwin Gaad
Caldari
The Element Syndicate
Black Mesa Project
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Posted - 2010.01.02 07:36:00 -
[74]
lurking in a dodgy thread.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.01.02 08:47:00 -
[75]
Quote:
My gawd one public audit and you turned into VV
Try wasting half a day on something as fun as detail accounting and that something can potentially one shot your credibility in change of next to nothing and then you become a defensive granny.
Quote:
I tried to remain humble, I tried to post my reservations.
But being called a liar, ****es me off, MD should know this about now.
Welcome to the job, spend more weeks like this and you'll see why I could not really get the "free" auditing concept (ball breaking and for free?).
Plus being it labelled / defined / believed as "cheap and quick" you'll be accused of having rushed it. People associate free == crap even if it would be not the case.
Quote:
I cant go back to the beggining of this year on my wallet ji sama cannot see any transaction from the beggining of the year but in the video its clearly show me dealing with loads of contracts now when you set up contracts and buy orders there will be dedction in youre wallet for tax etc, but still i cannot see them and ji sama didnt either
so This clearly shows that there is a BUG maybe its becouse ive been inactive for a while? tbh i dont know,
You got this problem, where it's you who need to provide tangible and accountable proof of your statements.
What maybe you have not got or been said by anyone is: either you spit the tangible and accountable proof or no money.
You can roll around all you want but the terse truth is just that.
Like in RL no one cares if there are bugs or anything. Petition CCP or whatever about the missing wallet entries (since contracts are a known and ignored bug so no luck there) THEN start a bond. Otherwise all you get are broken bones.
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Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and
http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Katiana Swan
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Posted - 2010.01.02 09:23:00 -
[76]
As I said earlier, I have confirmed hundreds if not thousands of contracts directly with an alt in his corporation. I couldn't find any that looked dodgy and they ranged from caldari navy cruise missile launchers to caldari navy ravens and bhalgorns. I wouldn't hesitate to value even 2 pages of those contracts at probably 5 billion isk and there were probably a good 40 pages of contract data.
If Satane wants to pay me in shares and people actually want this data I would be happy to calculate a month (chosen by the people) of total WTB contracts filled. This won't show profit but it will show satanes capital movement.
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satane
Amarr
EVE Corporation49487
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Posted - 2010.01.02 10:25:00 -
[77]
Thanks Kar Isk recieved and shares sent,
Also i Have petition ccp about my missing wallet entries,
-sex
Signature graphics that may only contain your character name, corporation logo, corporation or personal slogan or other text that is directly related to your in-game persona, or content directly related to Eve Online. All content must be in good taste. Applebabe |
Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2010.01.02 15:50:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Katiana Swan
As I said earlier, I have confirmed hundreds if not thousands of contracts directly with an alt in his corporation. I couldn't find any that looked dodgy and they ranged from caldari navy cruise missile launchers to caldari navy ravens and bhalgorns. I wouldn't hesitate to value even 2 pages of those contracts at probably 5 billion isk and there were probably a good 40 pages of contract data.
If Satane wants to pay me in shares and people actually want this data I would be happy to calculate a month (chosen by the people) of total WTB contracts filled. This won't show profit but it will show satanes capital movement.
According to eve-search this is your 13th post. Congratulations.
And most of them were in the two threads where you were asking for isk.
I'm going to go out on a limb and call you an alt.
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Cista2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2010.01.02 16:19:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Kalrand
I'm going to go out on a limb and call you an alt.
lmao.
This thread resembles less a discussion of a business proposal than a shark feeding frenzy. Like in the Davramm thread, anyone that says anything that goes against the "informed opinion" of the likes of Kwint Sommer and Cosmoray, and apparently, Kalrand, will have their arms chewed off.
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Buy / sell Jidsale shares here |
Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.01.02 16:24:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Katiana Swan
As I said earlier, I have confirmed hundreds if not thousands of contracts directly with an alt in his corporation. I couldn't find any that looked dodgy and they ranged from caldari navy cruise missile launchers to caldari navy ravens and bhalgorns. I wouldn't hesitate to value even 2 pages of those contracts at probably 5 billion isk and there were probably a good 40 pages of contract data.
If Satane wants to pay me in shares and people actually want this data I would be happy to calculate a month (chosen by the people) of total WTB contracts filled. This won't show profit but it will show satanes capital movement.
According to eve-search this is your 13th post. Congratulations.
And most of them were in the two threads where you were asking for isk.
I'm going to go out on a limb and call you an alt.
Nah, Katiana has been a stand up guy, and actually it was me that encouraged him in a chat to come forth after he put someone in satane's corp to try to verify what he said.
Take Katiana's word or not, but I'll venture out on a limb to say she's not a satane alt. 
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Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2010.01.02 16:31:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Dretzle Omega
Take Katiana's word or not, but I'll venture out on a limb to say she's not a satane alt.
Oh, I don't think its one of satane's alts. I do think it's an experienced character's MD alt.
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Mme Pinkerton
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.01.02 16:50:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Kalrand
Oh, I don't think its one of satane's alts. I do think it's an experienced character's MD alt.
Didn't you get the memo that (s)he is set to complete MD's triumvirate of auditors?
MD likes her, don't spoil the fun.
on a more serious note - her methodology may look a little "old school" - putting an alt in the investee's corp (for w/e purpose) and payment in shares haven't been common in MD during the last few months, but it is nothing that couldn't be the independent product of a bright mind.
Some people learn very fast and maybe she isn't an alt at all (in my experience many of the older players vastly overestimate the amount of time you actually need to get a grip of game mechanics).
Only thing I find noteworthy about her is that from her very first post she got the way of dealing with MD perfectly right (+ her approach of public API disclosure is a very bold one) and seems to go pretty straight towards assuming the role of an auditor.
and btw, according to eve-search she has way more than 13 posts, don't know where you got that number from.
--
"The public may not fully understand precisely what auditors do or how we do it, but they care that we exist because it provides them the confidence they so badly need and want." |
Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.01.02 17:03:00 -
[83]
Meh, doesn't matter.  By the way, Katiana, getting called an alt is a good thing. It means you must be doing something right, and/or have reason to be publicly defamed.
According to some, I'm a Riethe alt and an MD scammer wannabe and Akita T is a dev/GM alt.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.01.02 18:26:00 -
[84]
Coincidentally, after some of my first posts in MD, someone called me a "scammer alt" as well.
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Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and
http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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SetrakDark
Caldari
DarkCorp Technology and Finance
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Posted - 2010.01.02 18:38:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Coincidentally, after some of my first posts in MD, someone called me a "scammer alt" as well.
And then you "scammed" all our hearts.
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Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2010.01.02 20:17:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
and btw, according to eve-search she has way more than 13 posts, don't know where you got that number from.
Huh. The search I ran before only pulled up a handful. Odd.
I've just noticed a burst of posts, and anything associated with satene has been a circle of alts, posting, and random voices popping in to "verify" things.
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F90OEX
F9X
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.01.02 21:19:00 -
[87]
Just putting it out there, some have asked me IF I was willing to endorse and standby satane/sex-trader's (ST) since I assume they have an interest in investing.
IF its the same guy, (ST) was always trading when I was. When I was selling 400-600 Navy Raven's every month ST was always the next competitor behind me, why it shows less sales for him I have no idea. Since I had complete control over this market I knew it inside out. After he reached his goal, and I was still trading, he stopped.
But I cannot endorse him, he is a cool cat and when he has the ISK he can get into the CNR pool, just because again during the time he was trading ( at my request) he would make the effort in keeping the price where I wanted it + he knows how the "game" works , but having said that I have NO control over what he does with the Isk received from his investors.
Only people I will endorse or 101% guarantee is the people who use my name for the services that I provide. Since if it goes belly up, with the assets I have your Isk would be returned. Unfortunately this is the only way it works 99.9% of the time.
G/L satane/ ST
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Katiana Swan
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Posted - 2010.01.02 22:02:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Katiana Swan on 02/01/2010 22:04:57
Thanks guys, i'm touched 
I know I have been persistent here in this thread. My persistence has nothing to do with whether people should invest or not. It's simply trying to make people see the hard facts. The facts are available, post 1 shows a film uploaded by Satane that goes for over 11 minutes. It would be impossible to doctor, it shows tons and tons of contracts. I then also verified the same data directly through being in the corporation.
Think about this for a second. Most of the red flags from Ji Sama have been proven otherwise or a bug has been proven to exist.
Quote:
RED FLAG: This is an ALT account.
Op already advised who the main is, and I even had him activate that account to confirm
Quote:
RED FLAG: No disclosure of main character/account.
Op already advised who the main is, and I even had him activate that account to confirm
Quote:
RED FLAG: Account owner is a character trader.
For my IPO I purchased a freighter alt. Does this make me a character trader or put a red flag against my name?
Quote:
RED FLAG: account owner is showing the behavioural patterns of a step stone scammer.
Not a fact, it's an opinion, should not have been present in an audit without verifying precisely what a step-stone scammer is
Quote:
RED FLAG: 1000 transactions in 11 months.
Bug causing thousands of contracts to not show. Proven in-game and on film, post 1
Quote:
RED FLAG: Apparently the account owner took a 300M ISK loan just recently.
Ok, fair enough.
Quote:
RED FLAG: Account owner already took in investments to the tune of 240M ISK
As above, if it's a red flag so be it.
Quote:
RED FLAG: If the account owner is really worth 30B ISK, I canĘt find any traces of them.
Timeline from looking in satanaes corp transactions
* Massive amounts of contracts between Jan 16, 2008 and early June (probably 60-100b worth if not more).
* Has advised us he purchased a character in June, a pvp character. Has been checked and while a thread exists, and we have confirmed satane owns the character we were unable to confirm that he didn indeed pay 30b for the character back in June as none of this data can be found (his personal data seems all messed up for these characters). I believe he currrently has petitions open with CCP
Quote:
RED FLAG: Total Contract Revenue over 11 months = 7.2B
This is just plain wrong, sorry Ji. You used the tools available to you out of game, but by viewing the film or joining the corp of satane you would see how wrong this is. Satane probably dealt wih 7.2b in contracts every day or two.
Quote:
RED FLAG: These numbers indicate that the account owner is running at red numbers
I done some very basic checking on profit analysis. If you watch the film it shows who satane is selling contracts too. While you can't verify satanes contract history in game, you can see who he sold too and check contract info on that person. When doing so it does show satanes contracts. In regards to profit, I checked around 30 contracts and all of them were positive. His average buy on Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher is 27-30m and average sell was 37-43. Seems positive to me but was unwilling to verify everything (note: thousands of contracts)
Quote:
RED FLAG: Apparently sells at a loss for no known reason (could be trying to cover tracks)
Incorrect.
--
So we break this down. Of all the red flags posted by Ji, the only correct ones are that the OP had a few loans before he came here, he has done some character and gtc trading in the past and that while satane is a trade alt, his main has been verified publically in this forum thread.
--
If you were to read the above part it doesn't look as bad as color coding a pile of bits of speculation and failed research data as fact.
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Hippopotamus Rex
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Posted - 2010.01.02 23:25:00 -
[89]
I disagree. The red flags were/are correct. And they were the result of a poorly presented offering.
Red flags are warnings, not declarations of scammage. Satane certainly seems less risky now that you have explained a lot more and did so much research, but it doesn't eliminate the risk entirely.
It is and Alt account. We assume Taylor04 is her main. There is no proof, as of yet, that Taylor04 was purchased for 30b. But yes, it does seem that the volume of trading has been confirmed (through the video) - although I haven't see it myself.
The biggest "red flag" for me though, is why was this stuff not disclosed when Ji first brought it up and why is Katiana the one doing it?
Is this definitely a scam? No. But i wouldn't rule it out just yet. Heck, the real ST could have quit Eve already and this is his brother scamming you all with his hold character - or it could all be legit. But either way, I thing Ji's audit was accurate and useful.
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satane
Amarr
EVE Corporation49487
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Posted - 2010.01.02 23:52:00 -
[90]
Evening guys,
Thanks for all the replies and a special thanks to f9 for verifying that i did do a lot of trading in the past and to ji sama for auditing me in the first place,
And Katiana Swan he/she was willing to look into my corp and my history a bit more and for that i thank you,
Note: i Only have access to this account no one else and after reading eula i only have access on my main now, even though i wont really be using him just wanted him for the post,
Ill Be paying dividends early this week at around 00:00 Tonight if youre buying in before this, it may take up to a week for buy backs,
-sex
Signature graphics that may only contain your character name, corporation logo, corporation or personal slogan or other text that is directly related to your in-game persona, or content directly related to Eve Online. All content must be in good taste. Applebabe |
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