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Long Range Inties viable?

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Ammy Azimuth	Posted - 2010.01.06 22:22:00 - [1] I was wondering how well long range inties perform. I'm mostly looking at the turret based ships cause looking at the crow's dps chart on eft. And its horrendous with any frigate going anywhere decently fast. It ends up with like 20-30 dps which is pathetic. So I tried looking at the beam sader, and arty claw, and the rail ranis. The beam sader seems to have issues with fitting any sort of tank cause you run out of cpu and all sorts of crap. But you get a nice falloff range and good tracking. Arty claw was interesting, but the rail ranis had the most damage and had the most tank able to fit a medium shield extender and 125mm rails. The one I'm really thinking if its possible is the beam sader. And while the ranis has nice effhp and dps its the slowest of the long range inties. Wondering about tactics as well. I'm sure manual pilotting is the best, but how well does a long range inty do with Keep at range, and overheatted mwd? This is the rail ranis fit i gots. [Taranis, New Setup 1] Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core //can do standard micro aux core and pg4 instead Tracking Enhancer II Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters J5 Prototype Warp Disruptor I Medium Shield Extender II 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge S [empty high slot] Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I Warrior II x2 [Crusader, New Setup 2] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Faint Warp Disruptor I Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard S Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard S Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard S Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard S Small Energy Collision Accelerator I Small Energy Collision Accelerator I [Claw, New Setup 1] Tracking Enhancer II Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Faint Warp Disruptor I 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion S [empty high slot] Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I Thoughts? Claw looks better on paper compared to crusader but the slow fire rate is not good at the speeds these ships will be operating. And the damage drops off fairly steadily as well.
Dyphorus	Posted - 2010.01.06 22:29:00 - [2] Something else you don't mention, but really need to consider with beams/rails/arties on an inty is tracking. Orbiting at 5+ km/s, even at 15-20 km makes for fairly high transversal.
Ammy Azimuth	Posted - 2010.01.06 22:34:00 - [3] Yea I took into consideration tracking. Crusader gets the most with the 2 tracking enhancers, and you'd be reducing transversal with keep at range or manual piloting. Orbiting is going to get you killed by an overheated inty trying to get you into scram range. They do the old, burn away, and then overheat in opposite direction to screw you over and then you die horribly.
Tozmeister Digital Fury Corporation	Posted - 2010.01.07 09:44:00 - [4] Before you dismiss missile ships on the grounds that EFT says they're rubbish you do know EFT is broken as far as missile damage calculations go, right? pr0 tip: never take anything EFT says as gospel, always go test it. Even if you can only test on SiSi. Also, if your going to use artys on an inty use 250's and high tracking ammo (DU or Titanium Sabot). Peak DPS means nothing if you can't track for toffee. +++????+++Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start+++
Kessiaan Minmatar Final Agony	Posted - 2010.01.07 13:26:00 - [5] For solo pvp my personal favorite long-range interceptor is the Crow, simply because it has no tracking issues. The Crusader is popular is well. Afterburning rail Taranis is very good... in deadspaces. I've never found a rail fit I'm really happy with for general purpose pvp though with it.
Michael Turate	Posted - 2010.01.07 13:41:00 - [6] Totally agree with the point about EFT, it's a great tool but it isn't gospel. Some of its dps calculations can give you the impression that a fit is worthless but the self same fit can actually perform well in real combat.
Swearte Widfarend Gallente Aurora Security Art of Defiance	Posted - 2010.01.07 17:08:00 - [7] Better Rail Ranis fit: [Taranis, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Small Inefficient Armor Repair Unit Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters J5 Prototype Warp Disruptor I X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge S Small Nosferatu I (offline heat sink) Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Warrior/Hobgoblin II x2 96 DPS/225 Volley default EFT info. Need to do an accurate DPS graph though.
Ammy Azimuth	Posted - 2010.01.07 17:26:00 - [8] How's EFT's missile damage calculations broken? The damage mitigation isn't correct with regards to explosion velocity? So how would you setup a crow or crusader?
Raimo Gam3rs For Lif3	Posted - 2010.01.07 17:35:00 - [9] [Crusader, Raimo's Crusader] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Gistii B-Type 1MN MicroWarpdrive Warp Disruptor II Dual Light Pulse Laser II,Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II,Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II,Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II,Scorch S Small Energy Collision Accelerator I Small Energy Locus Coordinator II I have nearly 400 kills with this or a similar Sader fit, a lot of them solo, often outnumbered - and I've said it before :P That being said, these days I feel it's a bit meh with all the new faction frigs about, minny boost and all... Also, I run mostly in 0.0 ATM, most of said kills were in empire in a HG snake clone which definitely helps with the inherent troubles of rolling with a 15km optimal kiter with no tank... Tracking on it is godlike though. Without snakes you could try switching one Nano to OD and/ or dropping the collision rig for an aux thruster (T2 preferably ;) ) If you don't want to pony for T2 locus I highly recommend going 2x T1 Locus even with the 2 TE's, lows then 1x nano+1 OD (or 2 OD's but agility is the lifeblood of this fit TBH). ____________________________________________________________
Ammy Azimuth	Posted - 2010.01.07 17:43:00 - [10] Do you just use keep at range with 15km? Or do you manually fly going that freaking fast? Cause thats serious twitch game play.
Raimo Gam3rs For Lif3	Posted - 2010.01.07 17:53:00 - [11] Originally by: Ammy Azimuth Do you just use keep at range with 15km? Or do you manually fly going that freaking fast? Cause thats serious twitch game play. The tracking is good enough for hitting frig hulls in a straight 15k orbit (or an orbit that lands me at around 15 most of the time), the flying for me is a combination of said orbit, keep at range at 14,7k and lots of manual corrections but mostly to avoid drifting in to my target's gangmembers scram range if the target is slow and/or to hold on for dear life if it's, say, a Ranis or Claw. Many people will tell you that a competent Ranis pilot will land a scram on me and while it is indeed very much possible I've found out even without snakes that starting the fight with overloaded MWD and a wider orbit (I usually use the preset 15km orbit for this) lets me land some hits when they try to catch me to soften them a bit, then deoverheat my MWD and go to the normal fighting range risking a scram, I've usually managed to make enough damage to let me finish them before they finish me even if they did land said scram (which is not always btw) :P ____________________________________________________________
Ammy Azimuth	Posted - 2010.01.07 17:59:00 - [12] Edited by: Ammy Azimuth on 07/01/2010 17:59:49 So the orbit break trick doesn't work as well as advertised by ranis pilots? Wouldn't keep at range be more useful as it won't be prone to that trick or does the constant acceleration and slow downing make you more succeptible to getting caught? Btw, whats the need for the deadspace mwd? Only difference is sig radius bloom is less than normal. Does that make that big a difference?
Raimo Gam3rs For Lif3	Posted - 2010.01.07 18:08:00 - [13] Originally by: Ammy Azimuth Edited by: Ammy Azimuth on 07/01/2010 17:59:49 So the orbit break trick doesn't work as well as advertised by ranis pilots? Wouldn't keep at range be more useful as it won't be prone to that trick or does the constant acceleration and slow downing make you more succeptible to getting caught? Btw, whats the need for the deadspace mwd? Only difference is sig radius bloom is less than normal. Does that make that big a difference? It often works, but the tactic I described makes it a lot harder and can postpone it. Keep at range reacts way too slow tbh, and if you're fast you can manually correct your orbit (taking advantage of the speed/ inertia you already have) to counter their move when you spot it anyway. Gisti MWD is only for Cap reasons and essential at that, without it the Sader caps out way too soon for even attempting a kill of any Cruiser, tanky AF or failfit BC. ____________________________________________________________
Ammy Azimuth	Posted - 2010.01.07 18:18:00 - [14] Oh and the 15km optimal keeps you out of neut range right? And wow taking out battlecruisers in a crusader? Didn't know you could take stuff out that large. How's your experience with a crow?
Raimo Gam3rs For Lif3	Posted - 2010.01.07 18:43:00 - [15] Edited by: Raimo on 07/01/2010 18:49:04 Originally by: Ammy Azimuth Oh and the 15km optimal keeps you out of neut range right? And wow taking out battlecruisers in a crusader? Didn't know you could take stuff out that large. How's your experience with a crow? Med neut range yes. A good neut Domi pilot will murder you though. Yeah "buffer" tanked /notanked/ tripletanked/ noobfitted BCs (Even BS I guess) without friends far enough from a gate or station (lol) and small frig gangs are killable :P Never flown a crow myself, pre speed nerf it was nice AFAIK but lately it has just always been an "easy kill" for me in most frig hulls I fly. (If I can catch 'em that is ) ____________________________________________________________
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.01.07 18:54:00 - [16] Crow has low dps and awful damage projection to frig hulls /even with tp and crash/, you wont even come close to saders 130-150dps.
Ammy Azimuth	Posted - 2010.01.07 19:02:00 - [17] Others above when they replied said that eft missile damage calculations is incorrect, and thus the crow is not as bad as previously thought. And raimos if you're able to stay outside of scram range with only 5km buffer, a crow should be able to do so with 10km buffer much easier. Crow could probably be faster since it doesn't need the optimal modules. What do you think?
Raimo Gam3rs For Lif3	Posted - 2010.01.07 19:15:00 - [18] Originally by: Ammy Azimuth What do you think? Yep, I've met uncatchable crows though the HG set + surprise overheat has helped nail some that 1st seemed like ones. But a smart nanocrow can indeed flee, otoh it is in my humble opinion quite awful at least solo. (Tho with the "never flew one" disclaimer) Though in packs they can be somewhat effective (read very annoying) against slower targets, I'll grant you that. ____________________________________________________________
Ammy Azimuth	Posted - 2010.01.07 19:32:00 - [19] How often have you died to those uncatchable crow? Or can you escape easily with an overheated mwd?
Raimo Gam3rs For Lif3	Posted - 2010.01.07 21:33:00 - [20] Originally by: Ammy Azimuth How often have you died to those uncatchable crow? Or can you escape easily with an overheated mwd? 1v1 I'd say never, ones in gangs with scrams have helped down me I'm sure... But most nanocrows don't have scrams so it's just a case of breaking their point (inverse of what the ranis pilots do, overheated MWD usually is enough tho) and warping off... Tho I usually prefer to kill them with the overheated approach option ;) ____________________________________________________________
Ammy Azimuth	Posted - 2010.01.07 23:37:00 - [21] Edited by: Ammy Azimuth on 07/01/2010 23:38:03 Can't that be said about your warp disruptor crusader fit? They could break out of your warp disruptor as well. Or is it just cause crow's damage is so slow and consistent people know when to get out easier compared to your crusader? And btw, thanks for all this useful info raimo.
Dalts	Posted - 2010.01.08 00:58:00 - [22] hello, some nice crusader fits already so i'll not post mine as very similar, nice in both pulse and beam setups. However, do take a long hard look at the slicer as well, its rather awesome and can pull off the pulse fitting with a much bigger safety buffer range due to bonuses and lows.
Ammy Azimuth	Posted - 2010.01.08 01:45:00 - [23] I have looked at the slicer. Crazy range with pulse's however you don't get the reduced sig bloom from a mwd which I like very much on the inties, and you cant reach the speeds inties get. But besides that the slicer is a kiting doom machine.
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2010.01.08 05:48:00 - [24] EFT warrior-ing: [Crow, Simple] Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Ballistic Control System II Small C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I Faint Warp Disruptor I Federation Navy 1MN MicroWarpdrive Standard Missile Launcher II, Bloodclaw Fury Light Missile Standard Missile Launcher II, Bloodclaw Fury Light Missile Standard Missile Launcher II, Bloodclaw Fury Light Missile [empty high slot] Small Auxiliary Thrusters I Small Auxiliary Thrusters I
Raimo Gam3rs For Lif3	Posted - 2010.01.08 07:13:00 - [25] Originally by: Ammy Azimuth Edited by: Ammy Azimuth on 07/01/2010 23:38:03 Can't that be said about your warp disruptor crusader fit? They could break out of your warp disruptor as well. Or is it just cause crow's damage is so slow and consistent people know when to get out easier compared to your crusader? And btw, thanks for all this useful info raimo. NP, I'm somewhat "over" my nanosader craze atm so I don't mind talking about it... Oh, the tactic against crows is "approach", with overheated MWD if they seem fast/ good, so I end up on top of them giving me more time to shooty if they're trying to burn off. Switch to Fac MF when sub 5k if needed/ you have the time, the fits like the one posted above this post will usually melt faster that they can react with their MWD overload getaway. Of course they do stand a high chance of GTFO if they're awake and decent though... ____________________________________________________________
Justin Depunani Caldari Decimus Corp	Posted - 2010.01.08 16:19:00 - [26] I personally love the Malediction. Faster than the Crow and still shoots missiles.
Ammy Azimuth	Posted - 2010.01.08 17:16:00 - [27] And shoot rockets? Malediction gets no damage bonus to normal standard missiles.
Caliglia	Posted - 2010.01.08 17:18:00 - [28] it seems to me none of you talk about overheating your scrams and webs witch both will add extra range to them and make that 15 km a minimum range to fight at. i find the rains tho slow is so deadly up close with blaster and get a great amount of HP with the use of just 1 dmg control that it is the most deadly interceptor in the game. i like the sader with beams and tech 2 long range ammo gives me a 20 km range at that fare out it seems to me that tracking stop bing a problem even at max speed tho the trick with fist pushing twords the attacker to only turn around and overhead away to break the point is a big problem. allso i find the crow to have great agility but so slow speed that even with all the speed mods you can put on it it has problems keeping up with amaar and minmatar ships so mostly you end up really close to your taget and thats bad in a crap tanked ship the problem with the missiles is that they loss alot of dps at high speeds and no amount of rigs can help that when the speeds are over 4 -5 times explotion velosity so even tho crows have great range and nice wollys they fire to slow and have to little impact to be efective solo how ever in larger groups with both point scrams and webs in large numbers tagets will die fast heck even a small groupe of 3 should be abel to disable and speed nerf any one to the point there missiles hit for max dps. on a side note i dit manage to out manuver a claw in my crow around a station doing manualyorbit around set station but i was to bissy trying to out run him to get any real hit in and he offcourse just docked up . meby crows are good in astroid fields or some where there is some objects one can use as obsticals for ones enermys. cali.
Ammy Azimuth	Posted - 2010.01.08 18:00:00 - [29] Edited by: Ammy Azimuth on 08/01/2010 18:01:11 Most ranis are dual propped to range control once inside scram. It's the most versatile. And overheated scram on there only gets you 10.8km. Not many people use classic ranis anymore with mwd, scram, and web. Overheated web gets 13km not a 15km range. And I wondered about crow damage as well, but others say eft dps on missiles is broken so I have to try in game to test. Lots of close range inties are tanked or dps fitted more now and not built for speed. Therefore the crow doesn't have to waste slots on that as it can just mod for speed, thus being faster.
yani dumyat Minmatar Pixie Cats	Posted - 2010.01.08 21:42:00 - [30] I've flown the crow a lot and would say that while it's not the best interceptor in the game it is defiantly one of the most fun. Target choice is mainly T1 frigs, AF's and cruisers but unless you're very good at manual piloting other interceptors are a no go area. As a rule of thumb i'd say don't attack anything that can get within 1,000m/s of your top speed until you know what you're doing, once you're comfortable you can start to reduce the speed buffer but things get very difficult once your target can get within a few hundred m/s of your own speed. Try as much as possible to fight at belts and planets to prevent people deagressing, small gangs will often follow you to a planet if you target them at a gate then warp to somewhere really obvious, ie a planet that has no clutter near it so they can see exactly where you went. Planets are preferable to belts as there's less stuff to bump in to. Have your default 'warp to' set to a number that doesn't appear on the drop down list, this means no one will land on top of you. My default orbit is set to 13.5 km which gives a stable orbit of 18km ish, never use a named disruptor because you need that extra 4km range from the T2 to keep point. Orbit is only ever used against cruisers or AB frigates though can be a useful alternative to the approach button when manual piloting. My 'keep at range' is set to 1,000,000km so it works as a 'move away from' button. The faster manually piloted frigate fights are a set of turns where your opponent will try to either get you into scram range or get out of disruptor range, agility and reaction speed are everything in this situation and learning to face your screen in the correct direction so you are prepared before your enemy makes his turn is the key skill that will win you fights. You won't always get it right however so if your opponent does something unexpected use the approach/keep at range buttons to start your ship turning before rotating your screen and double clicking in space to correct your flight path. Against gangs try to draw any frigates 60km+ away from bigger ships to keep the drones off you but watch out for likely sniper ships like the zealot etc and watch out for frigates getting 150km from the gang to provide a warp to. Always approach or move away from the main gang in a zig zag pattern. Once in and about the enemy gang try to manually orbit the whole gang to lower transversal against as many pilots as possible while killing drones, passing through the center of the gang will usually get you killed. Vs a group of 3 cruisers you want to keep a single cruiser tackled without dropping transversal or getting to the middle of their gang and having an overloadad scram hit you, to do this draw an imaginary sphere round the cruisers and consider this as a no go zone. Now draw a line from the center of the sphere to your target cruiser and fly in a circle round that point. Diagram here cos i suck at explaining this. The red X is the target cruiser and your aim is to follow the circumference of the blue circle. Sorry for the wall of text but the crow is not like other interceptors so takes a bit of time to get your head round, it sucks at brawling and you'll loose a ton of them before you can fly it properly but what it lacks in tank n gank it makes up for with a near unique ability to take on multiple targets. [Crow, attempt xx] Overdrive Injector System II Ballistic Control System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Warp Disruptor II Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Standard Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Standard Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Standard Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile [empty high slot] Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I Small Low Friction Nozzle Joints I _________________________________________________ Lifeboat ----> + Human

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