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Armour Hardeners...I don't get it.

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Spyh	Posted - 2004.11.20 17:03:00 - [1] Okay, I have a Thorax. It's armour has 35% stock resistance to thermal damage. So I put on a thermal armour hardener which is supposed to boost it by 50%. So I'm expecting to see that my resistance has gone up to 85%, but instead it goes up only to 67.5%. So I think to myself, well, maybe it meant 50% of your current value or .5 x 35% = 17.5% which would give me 52.5%, but clearly that doesn't add up either. Someone want to explain the math here to me? Thanks
Spyh	Posted - 2004.11.20 17:03:00 - [2] Okay, I have a Thorax. It's armour has 35% stock resistance to thermal damage. So I put on a thermal armour hardener which is supposed to boost it by 50%. So I'm expecting to see that my resistance has gone up to 85%, but instead it goes up only to 67.5%. So I think to myself, well, maybe it meant 50% of your current value or .5 x 35% = 17.5% which would give me 52.5%, but clearly that doesn't add up either. Someone want to explain the math here to me? Thanks
kebab v2	Posted - 2004.11.20 17:06:00 - [3] its .5 x 65% = 67.5% you see
kebab v2	Posted - 2004.11.20 17:06:00 - [4] its .5 x 65% = 67.5% you see
Daerkannon Shimmerscale	Posted - 2004.11.20 17:07:00 - [5] You were almost on the right track. It's 50% of your unresisted damage. In this case 50% of the remaining 65% thermal resistance, or 32.5%. 35% + 32.5% = 67.5%
Daerkannon Shimmerscale	Posted - 2004.11.20 17:07:00 - [6] You were almost on the right track. It's 50% of your unresisted damage. In this case 50% of the remaining 65% thermal resistance, or 32.5%. 35% + 32.5% = 67.5%
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.11.20 17:10:00 - [7] It reduces the damage you take by 50% so 50% of 100%-current resists. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.11.20 17:10:00 - [8] It reduces the damage you take by 50% so 50% of 100%-current resists. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2004.11.20 17:17:00 - [9] If it didn't you would see a lot of invulnerable Scorpions around __________ Capacitor research
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2004.11.20 17:17:00 - [10] If it didn't you would see a lot of invulnerable Scorpions around __________ Capacitor research
Athlete	Posted - 2004.11.20 17:25:00 - [11] Now I get it; I'm a little embarrased I didn't see that. Thanks folks. One more thing though...do we know how the penalties for stacking these modules work? KOZKAOS
Athlete	Posted - 2004.11.20 17:25:00 - [12] Now I get it; I'm a little embarrased I didn't see that. Thanks folks. One more thing though...do we know how the penalties for stacking these modules work? KOZKAOS
Waagaa Ktlehr	Posted - 2004.11.20 18:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Athlete Now I get it; I'm a little embarrased I didn't see that. Thanks folks. One more thing though...do we know how the penalties for stacking these modules work? I don't think they have a stacking nerf, so then it would be like this for two: y = x + (1 - x) * 0.5 z = y + (1 - y) * 0.5 z gives you your resist after the 2nd hardener ------------------------------------------ I am a love machine, feeding my fantasy, give me a kiss or three, have fun!
Waagaa Ktlehr	Posted - 2004.11.20 18:56:00 - [14] Originally by: Athlete Now I get it; I'm a little embarrased I didn't see that. Thanks folks. One more thing though...do we know how the penalties for stacking these modules work? I don't think they have a stacking nerf, so then it would be like this for two: y = x + (1 - x) * 0.5 z = y + (1 - y) * 0.5 z gives you your resist after the 2nd hardener ------------------------------------------ I am a love machine, feeding my fantasy, give me a kiss or three, have fun!
Noriath	Posted - 2004.11.20 19:18:00 - [15] Pretty much the Calculation involved in figuring out how big your resist is is the penulty already. What is added to your resist by a 50% hardener is: .5(100 - (present resist)) So let's say you have 20% resist on somthing, you add one hardener, half of the unresisted damage is gone, so now the resist is 60%, you add ontherone, half of the unresisted damage, makes it 80%, then 90%, 95%, 97.5%... Fact is, even though your resists will keep getting higher, they will never reach 100. It's safe to say that the return on more then 2 hardeners of the same type is neglegable, and you're better off installing another module.
Noriath	Posted - 2004.11.20 19:18:00 - [16] Pretty much the Calculation involved in figuring out how big your resist is is the penulty already. What is added to your resist by a 50% hardener is: .5(100 - (present resist)) So let's say you have 20% resist on somthing, you add one hardener, half of the unresisted damage is gone, so now the resist is 60%, you add ontherone, half of the unresisted damage, makes it 80%, then 90%, 95%, 97.5%... Fact is, even though your resists will keep getting higher, they will never reach 100. It's safe to say that the return on more then 2 hardeners of the same type is neglegable, and you're better off installing another module.
Noriath	Posted - 2004.11.20 19:18:00 - [17] Edited by: Noriath on 20/11/2004 19:20:47 Double post
Noriath	Posted - 2004.11.20 19:18:00 - [18] Edited by: Noriath on 20/11/2004 19:20:47 Double post
Waagaa Ktlehr	Posted - 2004.11.20 20:27:00 - [19] Edited by: Waagaa Ktlehr on 20/11/2004 20:30:51 Yeah, so your resist (r) for any given default resist (x) with n hardeners will be: r = 100 - (0.5 ^ n) * (100 - x) yay :) ------------------------------------------ I am a love machine, feeding my fantasy, give me a kiss or three, have fun!
Waagaa Ktlehr	Posted - 2004.11.20 20:27:00 - [20] Edited by: Waagaa Ktlehr on 20/11/2004 20:30:51 Yeah, so your resist (r) for any given default resist (x) with n hardeners will be: r = 100 - (0.5 ^ n) * (100 - x) yay :) ------------------------------------------ I am a love machine, feeding my fantasy, give me a kiss or three, have fun!
Ebedar	Posted - 2004.11.20 20:31:00 - [21] Working out damage resistance with hardeners. My life in pictures:
Ebedar	Posted - 2004.11.20 20:31:00 - [22] Working out damage resistance with hardeners. My life in pictures:
Waagaa Ktlehr	Posted - 2004.11.20 20:55:00 - [23] Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr Edited by: Waagaa Ktlehr on 20/11/2004 20:30:51 Yeah, so your resist (r) for any given default resist (x) with n hardeners will be: r = 100 - (0.5 ^ n) * (100 - x) yay :) Which would make it, if stacking penalty is also effecting these modules: r = 100 - 0.5^n * (1 / n)^0.25 * (100 - x) ------------------------------------------ I am a love machine, feeding my fantasy, give me a kiss or three, have fun!
Waagaa Ktlehr	Posted - 2004.11.20 20:55:00 - [24] Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr Edited by: Waagaa Ktlehr on 20/11/2004 20:30:51 Yeah, so your resist (r) for any given default resist (x) with n hardeners will be: r = 100 - (0.5 ^ n) * (100 - x) yay :) Which would make it, if stacking penalty is also effecting these modules: r = 100 - 0.5^n * (1 / n)^0.25 * (100 - x) ------------------------------------------ I am a love machine, feeding my fantasy, give me a kiss or three, have fun!
Tyrrax Thorrk	Posted - 2004.11.20 22:42:00 - [25] There is a stacking penalty on them. http://eve.klaki.net/
Tyrrax Thorrk	Posted - 2004.11.20 22:42:00 - [26] There is a stacking penalty on them. http://eve.klaki.net/
Side Liner	Posted - 2004.11.22 16:32:00 - [27] The stacking debate regarding armour hardeners continues... ain't it nice to see that the college education and hard work paid off in school Now what other game world could encourage such an academic debate... The Department for Education here in the UK could learn a lot...matrices anyone? - I never could get the hang of them hence I can just about manage 2+2=5
Side Liner	Posted - 2004.11.22 16:32:00 - [28] The stacking debate regarding armour hardeners continues... ain't it nice to see that the college education and hard work paid off in school Now what other game world could encourage such an academic debate... The Department for Education here in the UK could learn a lot...matrices anyone? - I never could get the hang of them hence I can just about manage 2+2=5
babyblue	Posted - 2004.11.23 02:18:00 - [29] It ****es me off that I need a degree in math to work out what all these modules do. I do have a degree in computer science but that doesn't seem to help.
babyblue	Posted - 2004.11.23 02:18:00 - [30] It ****es me off that I need a degree in math to work out what all these modules do. I do have a degree in computer science but that doesn't seem to help.
Weirda	Posted - 2004.11.23 02:45:00 - [31] Originally by: babyblue It ****es me off that I need a degree in math to work out what all these modules do. I do have a degree in computer science but that doesn't seem to help. Sigh... Back in Weirda's day we actually had to take engineering/engineering calculus to get computer degrees... now it just like an ATM machine... Computer Science has become a bit of a misnomer/oxymoron... -- Thread Killer <END TRANSMISSION>
Weirda	Posted - 2004.11.23 02:45:00 - [32] Originally by: babyblue It ****es me off that I need a degree in math to work out what all these modules do. I do have a degree in computer science but that doesn't seem to help. Sigh... Back in Weirda's day we actually had to take engineering/engineering calculus to get computer degrees... now it just like an ATM machine... Computer Science has become a bit of a misnomer/oxymoron... -- Thread Killer <END TRANSMISSION>
theRaptor	Posted - 2004.11.23 06:06:00 - [33] Originally by: Weirda Originally by: babyblue It ****es me off that I need a degree in math to work out what all these modules do. I do have a degree in computer science but that doesn't seem to help. Sigh... Back in Weirda's day we actually had to take engineering/engineering calculus to get computer degrees... now it just like an ATM machine... Computer Science has become a bit of a misnomer/oxymoron... I am still young and doing my degree in Information Techonology, and it is a lot less maths heavy then most Computer Science degrees (which here in Australia mostly have a common first year with Engineering degrees). But I have still done my share of Tertiary level maths, and most EVE stuff is high school level at best. --------------------------------------------------
theRaptor	Posted - 2004.11.23 06:06:00 - [34] Originally by: Weirda Originally by: babyblue It ****es me off that I need a degree in math to work out what all these modules do. I do have a degree in computer science but that doesn't seem to help. Sigh... Back in Weirda's day we actually had to take engineering/engineering calculus to get computer degrees... now it just like an ATM machine... Computer Science has become a bit of a misnomer/oxymoron... I am still young and doing my degree in Information Techonology, and it is a lot less maths heavy then most Computer Science degrees (which here in Australia mostly have a common first year with Engineering degrees). But I have still done my share of Tertiary level maths, and most EVE stuff is high school level at best. --------------------------------------------------
kessah	Posted - 2004.11.23 09:57:00 - [35] yay :) r = 100 - 0.5^n * (1 / n)^0.25 * (100 - x) yes yes very clever u can do GCSE maths.... no need to show off -------------------------------------------------------- Im Your Huckleberry ;-)
kessah	Posted - 2004.11.23 09:57:00 - [36] yay :) r = 100 - 0.5^n * (1 / n)^0.25 * (100 - x) yes yes very clever u can do GCSE maths.... no need to show off -------------------------------------------------------- Im Your Huckleberry ;-)
Qutsemnie	Posted - 2004.11.24 10:50:00 - [37] You really dont need a degree in math cause there is a simple rule. An armor hardener will always reduce your damage recieved without it by the amount that it says in percentage on the hardener. [provided you dont stack two of the same type] Thats it. Wasnt hard! Its intuitive. But the people in the middle range that know the equation to pull off that simple intuitive sentence might not realize their complicated equation and that simple intuitive sentence are saying the same thing =) Your next task isnt to get caught up in what resist is lowest but to detirmin what damage your recieving is the highest and mount that hardener.
Qutsemnie	Posted - 2004.11.24 10:50:00 - [38] You really dont need a degree in math cause there is a simple rule. An armor hardener will always reduce your damage recieved without it by the amount that it says in percentage on the hardener. [provided you dont stack two of the same type] Thats it. Wasnt hard! Its intuitive. But the people in the middle range that know the equation to pull off that simple intuitive sentence might not realize their complicated equation and that simple intuitive sentence are saying the same thing =) Your next task isnt to get caught up in what resist is lowest but to detirmin what damage your recieving is the highest and mount that hardener.
deadbilly	Posted - 2004.11.24 16:31:00 - [39] Hey Waagaa... Love the sig.. awwww cwute [c-bare bites fingers off]
deadbilly	Posted - 2004.11.24 16:31:00 - [40] Hey Waagaa... Love the sig.. awwww cwute [c-bare bites fingers off]
grendels arm	Posted - 2004.11.24 18:41:00 - [41] Edited by: grendels arm on 24/11/2004 18:43:47 This game isn't realistic. Real space travel isn't as complicated as you guys discussing this crap.
grendels arm	Posted - 2004.11.24 18:41:00 - [42] Edited by: grendels arm on 24/11/2004 18:43:47 This game isn't realistic. Real space travel isn't as complicated as you guys discussing this crap.
Darkwolf	Posted - 2004.11.24 22:43:00 - [43] Originally by: Qutsemnie You really dont need a degree in math cause there is a simple rule. An armor hardener will always reduce your damage recieved without it by the amount that it says in percentage on the hardener. [provided you dont stack two of the same type] And if you do, then your assumption above goes straight out the window. The easiest way to calculate it is to turn all your resistances into vulnerabilities, and then calculate stacking in the normal way (the formula above was wrong, btw). Total modifier = (mod1mod2...modn)^((1/n)^0.25) The brackets are really important So, let's say you have a 60% base resist to EM, and you fit a 50% EM hardener and a 20% nano plating. Base vuln: 1-0.6 = 0.4 Hardener: 1-0.5 = 0.5 Plating: 1-0.2 = 0.8 Total modifier: (0.50.8)^((1/2)^0.25) = 0.4627 Total vuln: 0.4 * 0.4627 = 0.185 Total resist: 1-0.185 = 0.815 = 81.5% When applying only ONE hardener, yes, it's easy - the hardener halves the damage you take, so you simply add half of the value that you need to get to 100% to your resist. But with multiple modules, it gets more... complex.
Darkwolf	Posted - 2004.11.24 22:43:00 - [44] Originally by: Qutsemnie You really dont need a degree in math cause there is a simple rule. An armor hardener will always reduce your damage recieved without it by the amount that it says in percentage on the hardener. [provided you dont stack two of the same type] And if you do, then your assumption above goes straight out the window. The easiest way to calculate it is to turn all your resistances into vulnerabilities, and then calculate stacking in the normal way (the formula above was wrong, btw). Total modifier = (mod1mod2...modn)^((1/n)^0.25) The brackets are really important So, let's say you have a 60% base resist to EM, and you fit a 50% EM hardener and a 20% nano plating. Base vuln: 1-0.6 = 0.4 Hardener: 1-0.5 = 0.5 Plating: 1-0.2 = 0.8 Total modifier: (0.50.8)^((1/2)^0.25) = 0.4627 Total vuln: 0.4 * 0.4627 = 0.185 Total resist: 1-0.185 = 0.815 = 81.5% When applying only ONE hardener, yes, it's easy - the hardener halves the damage you take, so you simply add half of the value that you need to get to 100% to your resist. But with multiple modules, it gets more... complex.

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