Originally by: masternerdguy

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Edited by: masternerdguy on 09/01/2010 05:56:38
Hulkageddon is the kind of thing that makes EVE a fun game. In most MMOs everyone is safe to make money in their little world.....

NOT IN EVE

EVE has real risk and I like that. Hulkageddon is the stuff CCP loves, lets be honest. It builds publicity.

Did you know the average mining Hulk is fitted for almost 300m? Its terrifying. Especially with how inneficient and uneeded mining is to EVE's economy.

Mining on one's own as a noobie hulk often produces less isk/hour than a level 3 mission. With good mining skill support, you still make less than a level 4. Also, mining is the most unsafe profit generator you can do in hi sec.

It is not hard to gank a hulk. Here's how:
You need a battleship that can drop out an alpha damage of about 3,000. This will melt most mining barges. Hulks are a bit tricky, since they have good resists and can tank. So take 2 BS for them.

1. To clarify, no miners! Your not special and you do not support EVE's economy. Almost all manufacturing is done with refined mission loot. Why? Because you can get large quantities of rare ores in total safety! For a miner to do it they have to go to low or null sec!

2. Everyone seems to think Hulkageddon is mean....it really isnt especially with how avoidable it is. Just don't mine without support. And no, an orca fitted for max profit is not support. Effective mining ops employ hired thugs in their corps flying dominixes to bring the pain on gankers.

3. IF you don't like it, you have the power to stop it. All you have to do is unite and defend yourselves. But instead your willing to let yourselves get ganked 1 by 1.

Defense:
I really posted this to tell you how to defend urselves.
1. dont mine alone
2. fit your ship for tank not max cargo capacity.
3. carry combat drones.
4. RR fleet mates are your friends.
5. mine in obscure places.

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Originally by: Konoch

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When the prices of ships and modules go so high that you cant fit your pretty little HAC for less than it costs for a CNR dont ***** to me. Hulkageddon is pointless dumb and will make prices skyrocket throughout all of eve. Hulks will hit 400 million. Most ships will likely double in price if the current rate of killing continues and POS's will shut down across eve because ice mining is probably going to be the most effected from everything thats happened already. 612 exhumers at last count. Congrats boys you're hitting the supply lines for the entire game now you get to see a glimpse of the future of real life.

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Originally by: masternerdguy

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most mins come from missions.

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Originally by: De'Veldrin

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Originally by: masternerdguy

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most mins come from missions.

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40% is not most. It's not even half.
It is some, or at best, a lot.

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Originally by: Bane Loppknow

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I would like to point out that using combat drones on a suicide ganker in highsec is a very bad idea. Concord WILL pop them, all you need to do is survive long enough. By siccing your drones on them, all you've done is make it perfectly legal for anyone in their corp to come shoot you.

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Originally by: Konoch

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When the prices of ships and modules go so high that you cant fit your pretty little HAC for less than it costs for a CNR dont ***** to me. Hulkageddon is pointless dumb and will make prices skyrocket throughout all of eve. Hulks will hit 400 million. Most ships will likely double in price if the current rate of killing continues and POS's will shut down across eve because ice mining is probably going to be the most effected from everything thats happened already. 612 exhumers at last count. Congrats boys you're hitting the supply lines for the entire game now you get to see a glimpse of the future of real life.

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Originally by: masternerdguy

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Originally by: De'Veldrin

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Originally by: masternerdguy

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most mins come from missions.

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40% is not most. It's not even half.
It is some, or at best, a lot.

---

lol 40%......hahahahaah
Ok 40%, but lets take something into consideration.

Where do you get morphite in hi sec?
How about zydrine?

Exactly. All the GOOD minerals come from missions. So what if you can provide 9 trillion veldspar if thats all you can provide.

Not to mention missions provide salvage for rig building.

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Originally by: Tzarus

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Originally by: masternerdguy

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Originally by: De'Veldrin

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Originally by: masternerdguy

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most mins come from missions.

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40% is not most. It's not even half.
It is some, or at best, a lot.

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lol 40%......hahahahaah
Ok 40%, but lets take something into consideration.

Where do you get morphite in hi sec?
How about zydrine?

Exactly. All the GOOD minerals come from missions. So what if you can provide 9 trillion veldspar if thats all you can provide.

Not to mention missions provide salvage for rig building.

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I heard this "rumor" once and again that L4s yield more minerals that a maxed Hulk.

Now you even say that MR yield 40% of the total market minerals.

where did you get this data from?

Any link would be welcome.

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Originally by: Tzarus

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Any link would be welcome.

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Originally by: CCP Chronotis

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Posted - 2009.02.04

To give more precise data as the 40% was a figure I used as an overall average was 'of the top of my head' during the meeting taken from the data below.

This was the one month split for all items reprocessed measured mid-august to mid-september 2008.

|| Mineral || Ore% || Loot% || Drone Compounds% ||
||-----------||------||-------||------------------||
|| Tritanium || 46% || 43% || 11% ||
|| Pyerite || 29% || 60% || 10% ||
|| Mexallon || 30% || 59% || 11% ||
|| Isogen || 21% || 56% || 23% ||
|| Nocxium || 18% || 32% || 51% ||
|| Zydrine || 43% || 18% || 40% ||
|| Megacyte || 44% || 39% || 16% ||
|| Morphite || 77% || 1% || 22% ||

* Ore is minerals from the asteroid ores
* loot is modules, ships, charges, drones for example.
* drone compounds are loot items from rogue drones

However, whatever conclusion you draw from those stats, be careful as it does not tell you much really such as how many people were mining or running missions. The number of people running missions is massive compared to number of miners and the source per person much lower overall however it is a large diffuse source. It is a similar story for anytime a player encounters the rogue drones.

The ongoing discussion we are having internally is really around the point of to what degree a specialist profession like mining should be adversely affected by another career path where this forms only one part of their total reward/income pool.

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Originally by: Akita T

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Edited by: Akita T on 09/01/2010 07:18:38

Originally by: Tzarus

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Any link would be welcome.

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http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=989786&page=2#46 (Linkage)

Originally by: CCP Chronotis

---

Posted - 2009.02.04

To give more precise data as the 40% was a figure I used as an overall average was 'of the top of my head' during the meeting taken from the data below.

This was the one month split for all items reprocessed measured mid-august to mid-september 2008.

|| Mineral || Ore% || Loot% || Drone Compounds% ||
||-----------||------||-------||------------------||
|| Tritanium || 46% || 43% || 11% ||
|| Pyerite || 29% || 60% || 10% ||
|| Mexallon || 30% || 59% || 11% ||
|| Isogen || 21% || 56% || 23% ||
|| Nocxium || 18% || 32% || 51% ||
|| Zydrine || 43% || 18% || 40% ||
|| Megacyte || 44% || 39% || 16% ||
|| Morphite || 77% || 1% || 22% ||

* Ore is minerals from the asteroid ores
* loot is modules, ships, charges, drones for example.
* drone compounds are loot items from rogue drones

However, whatever conclusion you draw from those stats, be careful as it does not tell you much really such as how many people were mining or running missions. The number of people running missions is massive compared to number of miners and the source per person much lower overall however it is a large diffuse source. It is a similar story for anytime a player encounters the rogue drones.

The ongoing discussion we are having internally is really around the point of to what degree a specialist profession like mining should be adversely affected by another career path where this forms only one part of their total reward/income pool.

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Dev post good enough for ya' ?

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Originally by: cyclobs

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sooo, we're not allowed to make money... but you are? :S

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Originally by: masternerdguy

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Originally by: cyclobs

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sooo, we're not allowed to make money... but you are? :S

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nobody is stopping you from making isk.
We deal with ninja looters.

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Originally by: cyclobs

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Originally by: masternerdguy

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Originally by: cyclobs

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sooo, we're not allowed to make money... but you are? :S

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nobody is stopping you from making isk.
We deal with ninja looters.

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yeah but they're not costing you 300+ mil a mission

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Originally by: masternerdguy

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if you agress em and they come back in a pvp ship they can. ITs a growingly popular method.

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Originally by: masternerdguy

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Originally by: Akita T

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Edited by: Akita T on 09/01/2010 07:18:38

Originally by: Tzarus

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Any link would be welcome.

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http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=989786&page=2#46 (Linkage)

Originally by: CCP Chronotis

---

Posted - 2009.02.04

To give more precise data as the 40% was a figure I used as an overall average was 'of the top of my head' during the meeting taken from the data below.

This was the one month split for all items reprocessed measured mid-august to mid-september 2008.

|| Mineral || Ore% || Loot% || Drone Compounds% ||
||-----------||------||-------||------------------||
|| Tritanium || 46% || 43% || 11% ||
|| Pyerite || 29% || 60% || 10% ||
|| Mexallon || 30% || 59% || 11% ||
|| Isogen || 21% || 56% || 23% ||
|| Nocxium || 18% || 32% || 51% ||
|| Zydrine || 43% || 18% || 40% ||
|| Megacyte || 44% || 39% || 16% ||
|| Morphite || 77% || 1% || 22% ||

* Ore is minerals from the asteroid ores
* loot is modules, ships, charges, drones for example.
* drone compounds are loot items from rogue drones

However, whatever conclusion you draw from those stats, be careful as it does not tell you much really such as how many people were mining or running missions. The number of people running missions is massive compared to number of miners and the source per person much lower overall however it is a large diffuse source. It is a similar story for anytime a player encounters the rogue drones.

The ongoing discussion we are having internally is really around the point of to what degree a specialist profession like mining should be adversely affected by another career path where this forms only one part of their total reward/income pool.

---

Dev post good enough for ya' ?

---

if ya read this little line:

"However, whatever conclusion you draw from those stats, be careful as it does not tell you much really such as how many people were mining or running missions. The number of people running missions is massive compared to number of miners and the source per person much lower overall however it is a large diffuse source."

That means CCP divided the total ore income from missions by the amount of people running missions for their chart.

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Originally by: Mathis LeBanc

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&threadID

Originally by: masternerdguy

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Originally by: Akita T

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Edited by: Akita T on 09/01/2010 07:18:38

Originally by: Tzarus

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Any link would be welcome.

---

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=989786&page=2#46 (Linkage)

Originally by: CCP Chronotis

---

Posted - 2009.02.04

To give more precise data as the 40% was a figure I used as an overall average was 'of the top of my head' during the meeting taken from the data below.

This was the one month split for all items reprocessed measured mid-august to mid-september 2008.

|| Mineral || Ore% || Loot% || Drone Compounds% ||
||-----------||------||-------||------------------||
|| Tritanium || 46% || 43% || 11% ||
|| Pyerite || 29% || 60% || 10% ||
|| Mexallon || 30% || 59% || 11% ||
|| Isogen || 21% || 56% || 23% ||
|| Nocxium || 18% || 32% || 51% ||
|| Zydrine || 43% || 18% || 40% ||
|| Megacyte || 44% || 39% || 16% ||
|| Morphite || 77% || 1% || 22% ||

* Ore is minerals from the asteroid ores
* loot is modules, ships, charges, drones for example.
* drone compounds are loot items from rogue drones

However, whatever conclusion you draw from those stats, be careful as it does not tell you much really such as how many people were mining or running missions. The number of people running missions is massive compared to number of miners and the source per person much lower overall however it is a large diffuse source. It is a similar story for anytime a player encounters the rogue drones.

The ongoing discussion we are having internally is really around the point of to what degree a specialist profession like mining should be adversely affected by another career path where this forms only one part of their total reward/income pool.

---

Dev post good enough for ya' ?

---

if ya read this little line:

"However, whatever conclusion you draw from those stats, be careful as it does not tell you much really such as how many people were mining or running missions. The number of people running missions is massive compared to number of miners and the source per person much lower overall however it is a large diffuse source."

That means CCP divided the total ore income from missions by the amount of people running missions for their chart.

---

No...in fact that that statement actually helps the argument of the miner. Miners still put up numbers like 40% even though they have considerably less people contributing than with missions. It states nothing about any number being divided having anything to do with any piece of data on that chart. In fact it states the exact opposite of what you said.

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Originally by: Lord Windu

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Yeah Hulkageddon really needed another thread.

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Originally by: genette devo

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you would think smart miners would love hulkageddon,
it isn't exactly hard to avoid a suicide gank if you pay attention,
let the pirates kill the macros and afk guys and help your relative position

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Originally by: Qarthy

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Edited by: Qarthy on 09/01/2010 07:58:35
I think CCP should stop the payouts of insurance for being blow to hell by Concord or self destructing. Would put an end to suicide ganking and insurance scams.

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Originally by: Qarthy

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Edited by: Qarthy on 09/01/2010 07:58:35
I think CCP should stop the payouts of insurance for being blow to hell by Concord or self destructing. Would put an end to suicide ganking and insurance scams.


Still thinks it's stupid that you get paid insurance for getting killed by the cops.

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Originally by: Imweasel09

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That doesn't change the fact that most of the minerals on the market (with 1 exception) are coming from missions

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Originally by: Akita T

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Dev post good enough for ya' ?

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Originally by: Elena Laskova

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On the matter of risk vs reward:

As currently implemented, suicide ganking is *free*. So it's predictable (no risk), and there's no cost. According to the "Holy Commandments of EvE" that means the appropriate reward is zero, and suicide gankers are carebears.

Consaider the other side. Mining takes time. The necessary defense force for a miner has to be there all the time. This means hiring mercs on an hourly basis who are strong enough to block gankers isn't cost-effective. Conclusion: miners take much higher risks than suicide gankers, and therefore according to the "Holy Commandments" are due two things:

* A reward over and above the ISK from selling ore.
* Recognition by the player base that miners are PvPers.

The only way to change this would be to make it *practical* for miners to arrange to defend themselves. And since EvE is an economic smulation, not a combat game, that means that they can make a reasonable return on their time grinding mining time *after* paying for other players to grind guard duty.

Obviously the easy answer is to stop insurance for suicide gankers. Obviously the suicide gankers (who seem to represent a majority of EvE players) are lobbying against this.

But that means the suicide gankers have de facto admitted they are carebears, and that the miners are PvPers.

EvE is certainly different: most of the brave talk comes from avid risk-avoiders, and the people focusing solely on economic activities are the real PvPers.


PS: If the suicide-gankers didn't get an insurance payout, I'd be in favor of it. Ditto suicide-killing mission runners. But zero-risk free ganking in highSec is just crazy.

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Originally by: salva dore

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Cloak should not be AFK solution.
What do you think?

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Originally by: AFK Cloaker

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Originally by: Helicity Boson

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Let me just state for the record that I find it completely stupid that such large percentages of minerals originate in missions (and the drone regions).

It's bizarre, counter intuitive, and in my opinion, bad for producers and miners alike.

I think they should greatly reduce the number of T1 and low meta items that drop off mission rats, for the dual purposes of reducing l4 income a bit, and increasing the importance of miners in the game.

I also think the game is WELL PAST DUE, for improvements to the *gameplay* of mining, both to make it harder to mine AFK efficiently, and to make it less boring to do so.

Mining should have a gameplay element that is engaging and requires attention, so it's not just a matter of turning on lasers and coming back 10 minutes later, that is not good gamepley design at all.

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Originally by: Helicity Boson

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Let me just state for the record that I find it completely stupid that such large percentages of minerals originate in missions (and the drone regions).

It's bizarre, counter intuitive, and in my opinion, bad for producers and miners alike.

I think they should greatly reduce the number of T1 and low meta items that drop off mission rats, for the dual purposes of reducing l4 income a bit, and increasing the importance of miners in the game.

I also think the game is WELL PAST DUE, for improvements to the *gameplay* of mining, both to make it harder to mine AFK efficiently, and to make it less boring to do so.

Mining should have a gameplay element that is engaging and requires attention, so it's not just a matter of turning on lasers and coming back 10 minutes later, that is not good gamepley design at all.

---

Originally by: Helicity Boson

---

Let me just state for the record that I find it completely stupid that such large percentages of minerals originate in missions (and the drone regions).

It's bizarre, counter intuitive, and in my opinion, bad for producers and miners alike.

I think they should greatly reduce the number of T1 and low meta items that drop off mission rats, for the dual purposes of reducing l4 income a bit, and increasing the importance of miners in the game.

I also think the game is WELL PAST DUE, for improvements to the *gameplay* of mining, both to make it harder to mine AFK efficiently, and to make it less boring to do so.

Mining should have a gameplay element that is engaging and requires attention, so it's not just a matter of turning on lasers and coming back 10 minutes later, that is not good gamepley design at all.

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Originally by: Elena Laskova

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Edited by: Elena Laskova on 09/01/2010 14:51:15

There's an other way to look at it:

Mining in highSec is never going to be exciting. Design for it to be a semi-AFK activity. For example, the occasional interruptions to deter macro-miners would be ok, but nothing to stop using an alt to mine while doing something else. Make the basic rewards for highSec mining appropriate for semi-AFK. You could even look for a way to make mining pay better of you're in the ship (though it might difficult to find something that doesn't halp macro miners).

I wish I didn't get all these low meta-level T1 drops from missions. It would be much better if they were be made and sold at a profit by beginner industrialists. For L4 missions, I'd be happy with fewer module drops from small ships, but only good ones (T2 or M4+). This would make mining a little more important, but no MR will care - this is a win-win scenario. I

A change something like that should be good for miners, good for industrialists, and harmless for mission runners. Or am I missing something important?

BTW - I think T2 BP's are a mess - IMO more T2 drops, including in highSec L4's, would be a good start to fixing it.

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Originally by: masternerdguy

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Edited by: masternerdguy on 09/01/2010 05:56:38
Hulkageddon is the kind of thing that makes EVE a fun game. In most MMOs everyone is safe to make money in their little world.....

NOT IN EVE

EVE has real risk and I like that. Hulkageddon is the stuff CCP loves, lets be honest. It builds publicity.

Did you know the average mining Hulk is fitted for almost 300m? Its terrifying. Especially with how inneficient and uneeded mining is to EVE's economy.

Mining on one's own as a noobie hulk often produces less isk/hour than a level 3 mission. With good mining skill support, you still make less than a level 4. Also, mining is the most unsafe profit generator you can do in hi sec.

It is not hard to gank a hulk. Here's how:
You need a battleship that can drop out an alpha damage of about 3,000. This will melt most mining barges. Hulks are a bit tricky, since they have good resists and can tank. So take 2 BS for them.

1. To clarify, no miners! Your not special and you do not support EVE's economy. Almost all manufacturing is done with refined mission loot. Why? Because you can get large quantities of rare ores in total safety! For a miner to do it they have to go to low or null sec!

2. Everyone seems to think Hulkageddon is mean....it really isnt especially with how avoidable it is. Just don't mine without support. And no, an orca fitted for max profit is not support. Effective mining ops employ hired thugs in their corps flying dominixes to bring the pain on gankers.

3. IF you don't like it, you have the power to stop it. All you have to do is unite and defend yourselves. But instead your willing to let yourselves get ganked 1 by 1.

Defense:
I really posted this to tell you how to defend urselves.
1. dont mine alone
2. fit your ship for tank not max cargo capacity.
3. carry combat drones.
4. RR fleet mates are your friends.
5. mine in obscure places.

---

Originally by: Helicity Boson

---

You're not understanding that the risk vs. reward for l4 missions in high sec is seriously out of whack. Higher rewards requiring team work and risk will ultimately make the game better for everyone, even more so if some pvp is sprinkled into it, because at it's core eve is designed to be a player versus player game.

Not a solo grind fest, you can play great single player games like freelancer for that, and the play experience will be /better/ than running l4s solo in a noob corp.

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Originally by: Elena Laskova

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This is a mining/suicideGank thread.

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Originally by: Helicity Boson

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Originally by: Elena Laskova

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This is a mining/suicideGank thread.

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You don't know who I am, do you?

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Originally by: masternerdguy

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Defense:
I really posted this to tell you how to defend urselves.
1. dont mine alone
2. fit your ship for tank not max cargo capacity.
3. carry combat drones.
4. RR fleet mates are your friends.
5. mine in obscure places.

---

Originally by: masternerdguy

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Originally by: De'Veldrin

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Originally by: masternerdguy

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most mins come from missions.

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40% is not most. It's not even half.
It is some, or at best, a lot.

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lol 40%......hahahahaah
Ok 40%, but lets take something into consideration.

Where do you get morphite in hi sec?
How about zydrine?

Exactly. All the GOOD minerals come from missions. So what if you can provide 9 trillion veldspar if thats all you can provide.

Not to mention missions provide salvage for rig building.

---

Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: genette devo

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you would think smart miners would love hulkageddon,
it isn't exactly hard to avoid a suicide gank if you pay attention,
let the pirates kill the macros and afk guys and help your relative position

---

One of the defining characteristics of 'carebears' is that they're unable (or unwilling) to accept the principle of comparative advantage.

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Originally by: RootEmerger

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Edited by: RootEmerger on 09/01/2010 18:16:55

Originally by: masternerdguy

---

Defense:
I really posted this to tell you how to defend urselves.
1. dont mine alone
2. fit your ship for tank not max cargo capacity.
3. carry combat drones.
4. RR fleet mates are your friends.
5. mine in obscure places.

---

so... please explain how a miner, that's not doing as much isk as any lv4 missioneer as you are saying, can afford to pay a gang of rr dominix to just be near him all the time to hold his hand and do nothing when they could be doing the same l4 or whathever?

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Originally by: Helicity Boson

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Originally by: Elena Laskova

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This is a mining/suicideGank thread.

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You don't know who I am, do you?

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Originally by: Enoch Thered

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Mechanics (and devs) that allow things like Hulkageddon is the reason EVE Online is the only MMO I play. There's less interaction with players in other games, and any interaction is tainted by there always being a GM holding their hand and coddling them if you decide you're not their friend any more.

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Originally by: Elena Laskova

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Hulkageddon: cool idea
Pretend-Pvpers waiting until highSec ganking in a BS is free: It's EvE PvP, but it's not combat /kek

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Originally by: soren tores

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Edited by: soren tores on 09/01/2010 20:05:44

Originally by: masternerdguy

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Edited by: masternerdguy on 09/01/2010 05:56:38
Hulkageddon is the kind of thing that makes EVE a fun game. In most MMOs everyone is safe to make money in their little world.....

NOT IN EVE

EVE has real risk and I like that. Hulkageddon is the stuff CCP loves, lets be honest. It builds publicity.

Did you know the average mining Hulk is fitted for almost 300m? Its terrifying. Especially with how inneficient and uneeded mining is to EVE's economy.

Mining on one's own as a noobie hulk often produces less isk/hour than a level 3 mission. With good mining skill support, you still make less than a level 4. Also, mining is the most unsafe profit generator you can do in hi sec.

It is not hard to gank a hulk. Here's how:
You need a battleship that can drop out an alpha damage of about 3,000. This will melt most mining barges. Hulks are a bit tricky, since they have good resists and can tank. So take 2 BS for them.

1. To clarify, no miners! Your not special and you do not support EVE's economy. Almost all manufacturing is done with refined mission loot. Why? Because you can get large quantities of rare ores in total safety! For a miner to do it they have to go to low or null sec!

2. Everyone seems to think Hulkageddon is mean....it really isnt especially with how avoidable it is. Just don't mine without support. And no, an orca fitted for max profit is not support. Effective mining ops employ hired thugs in their corps flying dominixes to bring the pain on gankers.

3. IF you don't like it, you have the power to stop it. All you have to do is unite and defend yourselves. But instead your willing to let yourselves get ganked 1 by 1.

Defense:
I really posted this to tell you how to defend urselves.
1. dont mine alone
2. fit your ship for tank not max cargo capacity.
3. carry combat drones.
4. RR fleet mates are your friends.
5. mine in obscure places.

---

you sir are talking rectal mumbo jumbo, there is no way mission loot can cover the vast ammount of base minerals needed for the daily manufacturing in eve without mining support. and since when has 40% been most?

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Originally by: Tuyook

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I think the latest gank attempt on my mining crew crashed the servers =)
perfect timing too, managed to dock right before node crash. not before i looted the concordokkened ravens tho =)

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Originally by: WolfSchwarzMond

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Edited by: WolfSchwarzMond on 10/01/2010 14:00:03
Ok lets forget the whole where minerals come from thing for a minute.

The fact is if you get sucide ganked you weren't paying attention!! I've watched the Hulkageddion channel. Miners your being Laughed at cause your not playing INTELLIGENTLY!!! Your leaving yourself wide open to attack.
Common Errors as quoted by the Gankers themselves.
1 Failure to align.
2 Not watching Local.
3 AFK.
4 Bot or Macro Miners.
5 Sitting in the middle of the rocks where you can't warp.
6 Same locations over and over and over GANKER> Well, if they're dumb enough to hang around an obviously targeted system, I won't loose any sleep over them.

And I agree the insurance scam is BS, and needs to be fixed.
Wake UP people use the tools the game gives you.

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Originally by: Mistah Ewedynao

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Helcity I owe you an apology I think.
You seem more thoughtful and brighter than I thought.

Macro miners seem to be tolerated by CCP. My main has turned in/reported to CCP 3 different pairs who operate in the same region 23/7 year round. He makes lots of pick up runs on buy orders on a daily basis, and see's these same BOT's online ALWAYS...same systems always there.

CCP responded with some Mumbo Jumbo about they can't discuss their actions with other players, but they will investigate and closed the petitions.

End result??? All 3 pairs of maco's are still operating.....23/7.

May just gank em myself.

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Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker

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Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat!

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Originally by: Mistah Ewedynao

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Well Slade I am unemployed and have been for a couple of months, too much time on my hands.

Yeah me persaonnly, I see them all the time, same system for each pair. Have even probed them, attempted convo's, local chat. BTW, a couple of them have 1M isk fee's for convo attempts.

They are bots...period.

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Originally by: masternerdguy

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1. To clarify, no miners! Your not special and you do not support EVE's economy. Almost all manufacturing is done with refined mission loot. Why? Because you can get large quantities of rare ores in total safety! For a miner to do it they have to go to low or null sec!

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Originally by: Germaldi's Mum

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lose the miners and half of eve subscribership disappears

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Originally by: Germaldi's Mum

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the mining career path DOES however need to be fixed by reducing the minerals gained from reprocessing modules by at least 75%

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Originally by: Domestic Abuse

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Originally by: Germaldi's Mum

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the mining career path DOES however need to be fixed by reducing the minerals gained from reprocessing modules by at least 75%

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this probably would rock the foundations of the game though.

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Originally by: masternerdguy

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Originally by: Domestic Abuse

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Originally by: Germaldi's Mum

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the mining career path DOES however need to be fixed by reducing the minerals gained from reprocessing modules by at least 75%

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this probably would rock the foundations of the game though.

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definately....where would high end minerals come from?

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: masternerdguy

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Originally by: Domestic Abuse

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Originally by: Germaldi's Mum

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the mining career path DOES however need to be fixed by reducing the minerals gained from reprocessing modules by at least 75%

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this probably would rock the foundations of the game though.

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definately....where would high end minerals come from?

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0.0, W-space and drone space...?

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Originally by: masternerdguy

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oh totally! I mean lets analyze that...

WH space: pirate infested, intermittently available.
0.0: "Hey fellow goons, lets ship minerals to hi sec!" --eh no
Drone Space: "Hey fellow Solarfleetites, lets ship minerals to hi sec" -- eeh no!

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Quote:

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This would inflate the cost of t2 ships about 2x. T1 would also be inflated, probably worse tho tbh.

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Originally by: Alarci

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Why i Think you are absolutely wrong with supporting ingame terrorism.
Yes terrorism that whats hulkagedon is, praying on the defenseless and innocent because they are too scared to fight someone who can fight back, If this was RL those organising it would be hunted down and ending up in some dark secret compound on a waterboard.

For any industrialist supporting this . In RL what comes to mind are blooddiamonds.

Yes this is a game, this is a mmo , this is a sandbox, you can be what ever you like
But abusing a exploit just so you can grief others, that is something ccp should look into

Take this example, In the system i and my corp hang out is this 2 month old player , he is a member of a npc corp, but he is well liked by my people. For the past 2 months while he was training for his huk he worked hard ( mining)to save up the money to buy his hulk, he finally had the skills and the money to buy one, so proud he was ....till a hulkwhat ever started and a terrorist found him in a belt, rest you can imagine what happened.
While that griefer maybe lost little or nothing because of insurancefraud, our 2 month old player lost just about everything he has been working for in the last 2 months .

This is a exploit and should be stopped by removing insurancepayouts when you get concorded
This will not stop suicide ganks i am sure, if you are hauling 200mil isk worth of goods in a industrial hauler you deserved to be suicide gank.

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Originally by: Alarci

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Yes terrorism that whats hulkagedon is, praying on the defenseless and innocent because they are too scared to fight someone who can fight back

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Quote:

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But abusing a exploit just so you can grief others, that is something ccp should look into

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Quote:

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Take this example, In the system i and my corp hang out is this 2 month old player , he is a member of a npc corp, but he is well liked by my people. For the past 2 months while he was training for his huk he worked hard ( mining)to save up the money to buy his hulk, he finally had the skills and the money to buy one, so proud he was ....till a hulkwhat ever started and a terrorist found him in a belt, rest you can imagine what happened.

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Originally by: necrosia demora

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let me get this right. you support this because mining is pointless due to the fact you can get more mins from mission.

WHAT A LOAD OF C***.

we all know this is just a greifer campeign funded and promoted by 0.0 corps with the goal of boosting prices. afterall who are the only ones out there mining and profiting from this at the moment while this cowards pvp is going on.

no wonder eve is dying a slow death

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Originally by: Imbosol Norand

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There needs to be some risk to the high sec ganker, remove insurance on concord deaths, and award the ganked with a retribution ticket, which can be bought and sold to mercs who want to hunt down high sec gankers. Retribution ticket would allow the holders fleet to hunt down and pod kill any ganker without concord interference in any sec anywhere in the game. When the gankers start getting ganked for their actions and it starts costing their wallets, then we might see a lot less griefing tanking place.

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Originally by: Amaron Ghant

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Originally by: necrosia demora

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let me get this right. you support this because mining is pointless due to the fact you can get more mins from mission.

WHAT A LOAD OF C***.

we all know this is just a greifer campeign funded and promoted by 0.0 corps with the goal of boosting prices. afterall who are the only ones out there mining and profiting from this at the moment while this cowards pvp is going on.

no wonder eve is dying a slow death

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Must be plate tectonic slow then because i've not noticed this slow death of which you speak and I've been playing since 2003

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Originally by: Imbosol Norand

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There needs to be some risk to the high sec ganker

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Originally by: Helicity Boson

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Edited by: Helicity Boson on 11/01/2010 08:07:10
put high end minerals in low sec.

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Originally by: WolfSchwarzMond

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Edited by: WolfSchwarzMond on 10/01/2010 14:00:03
Ok lets forget the whole where minerals come from thing for a minute.

The fact is if you get sucide ganked you weren't paying attention!! I've watched the Hulkageddion channel. Miners your being Laughed at cause your not playing INTELLIGENTLY!!! Your leaving yourself wide open to attack.
Common Errors as quoted by the Gankers themselves.
1 Failure to align.
2 Not watching Local.
3 AFK.
4 Bot or Macro Miners.
5 Sitting in the middle of the rocks where you can't warp.
6 Same locations over and over and over GANKER> Well, if they're dumb enough to hang around an obviously targeted system, I won't loose any sleep over them.

And I agree the insurance scam is BS, and needs to be fixed.
Wake UP people use the tools the game gives you.

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Originally by: Bhattran

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Problem with your argument is it does not address miners using containers, or miners with an orca. Allign as it has been described means moving at least 3/4 max speed, the only way to do this with the two issues I've mentioned is impractical due to moving out of range of the asteroids you are mining or your drop off point, can or orca.

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Originally by: Helicity Boson

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Or people could, you know, not be stupid, get a clue, watch local, tank their ships and generally play the game better.

and there would be almost no griefing at all \o/

But it's easier to cry like a baby and hope CCP saves you, I agree.

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Originally by: Imbosol Norand

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This alone will not stop griefing, all it will do is take some victims out of the picture. An absence of victims does not make for an absence of perpetrators and the only sure fire way to change the culture of griefing is to make it hurt their wallets and to make perpetrators targets to all.

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Quote:

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The mantra that everyone keeps preaching is "Risk verses Reward", and in a game that's primarily focused on economic risk, high sec ganking needs to have an economic risk for the perpetrators of such acts, something that is not currently there because insurance on concord kills makes it a break even situation at worst.

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Originally by: Tippia

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Originally by: Bhattran

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Problem with your argument is it does not address miners using containers, or miners with an orca. Allign as it has been described means moving at least 3/4 max speed, the only way to do this with the two issues I've mentioned is impractical due to moving out of range of the asteroids you are mining or your drop off point, can or orca.

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How does it cause issues with an Orca? The thing has 70km/1kps tractors and can collect cans from all over the place, should you want to keep your hulks (and/or the Orca itself) on the move. It can also readily field a 300k EHP tank, so it'll require a fair bit of effort to gank.

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Originally by: Bhattran

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Mining can be done on the move but it doesn't change that using containers or a support ship orca/industrial means you are limiting your ability to mine when being aligned=moving(safest).

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Originally by: Typhado3

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hulkageddon is a rediculous sign of how broken insurance is.

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Originally by: Typhado3

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hulkageddon is a rediculous sign of how broken insurance is.

It's the cheap risk free version of pvp for empire. You can make plenty of money doing it and they never seem to run out of targets, puts low sec pirating to shame. It's on the same level as lvl 4 missions in empire imo.

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Originally by: Tippia

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Second of all, the reason there is no risk is because the victims have removed it by creating such an overabundance of minerals and selling them at (well) below their actual worth. They are the ones that can put it back by simply stop doing that.

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Originally by: Tippia

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As for retribution, you can already do that. Tradeable killrights is, as mentioned, a good idea for a number of other reasons, but for this particular one, there are already mechanics available in the game that lets you get revenge. It's (once again) just that the victims don't, for some reasons. If that's anything to go by, tradeable killrights won't change anything since they would still rely on the victims actually taking action.

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Originally by: genette devo

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you would think smart miners would love hulkageddon,
it isn't exactly hard to avoid a suicide gank if you pay attention,
let the pirates kill the macros and afk guys and help your relative position

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Originally by: Imbosol Norand

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That sounds to me like broken game mechanics, with insurance not following the fluctuations of the market with is central to this game and something that can be fixed.

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Quote:

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Unless of course you think that the victim had it coming because they wore a short skirt.

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Quote:

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Not all players want to PK. Not all players are skilled at PK.

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Originally by: Qarthy

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Edited by: Qarthy on 09/01/2010 07:58:35
I think CCP should stop the payouts of insurance for being blow to hell by Concord or self destructing. Would put an end to suicide ganking and insurance scams.


Still thinks it's stupid that you get paid insurance for getting killed by the cops.

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Originally by: Dragonmede

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But, blocking Insurance payouts for criminal activity would be good as well.

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Originally by: Ivan Desinovich

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i love hulkageddon, Trit is pushing 6isk per right now.

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Originally by: Ivan Desinovich

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i love hulkageddon, Trit is pushing 6isk per right now.

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Originally by: Dead Fetus

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Im not sure all of you realize this but here's the general facts:

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Quote:

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1. Missioners do not generate as much minerals as a minor, more isk maybe.

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Quote:

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When your in 0.0 mining, you DON'T mine veld. Only merxicot or some other high end ore

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Quote:

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When your in high-sec mining, you ONLY mine low end ore ie: veldspar.

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Quote:

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2. Not sure if you realize but most ships require more low end ore then high end ores to build so prices will rise for your "pvp" ships.

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Quote:

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3. Hulkageddon players will find some sorta excuse the justify their actions even if its clearly stupid.

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Originally by: Taran Seikar

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I'm curious and don't have the time to read through all the chronicles at the moment.

Whats the ingame explanation for getting the Concordoken?

I mean sure, in game terms it makes sense. You break the rules, you get punished for it by the police force. But why is the only possible punishment instant death without a trial or anything?

Immagine theres a psyco out there shooting randomly at passing cars. Now instead of sending out police officers to catch and imprisonate the guy, it's official policy to explode him with a laser guided missile and act as if nothing serious happened.

Now immagine you are frustrated and kick the car of your ex-wife. Boom - laser guided missile to the face.

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Originally by: Helicity Boson

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Originally by: Elena Laskova

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This is a mining/suicideGank thread.

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You don't know who I am, do you?

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Originally by: Fergus McRae

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Originally by: Helicity Boson

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Originally by: Elena Laskova

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This is a mining/suicideGank thread.

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You don't know who I am, do you?

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I don't know who you are... but then, the real question is why should I, or anyone, care?

I mean, and I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but why should it matter who you are? Seems to me we're just folks posting on a game forum... Are you the POTUS or something?

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Originally by: Rolk Anderson

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Words cannot describe the hatred I feel for you Zeredek.

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Originally by: Professor Tarantula

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Hulkageddon appears to be much like armageddon, you hear lots of people saying it's happening, and getting all excited, but when you really look around you see no evidence of it happening.

They're welcome to make it an everyday (non)event as far as i'm concerned.

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Quote:

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I'm pretty sure CONCORD only does this to capsuleers. CONCORD law is about the only law that applies to us, and they don't want capsuleer wars in high-sec unless the war is registered and the fee paid, so they don't mess around. If a capsuleers makes an unprovoked attack against another capsuleer, they lose their ship.

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Originally by: Taran Seikar

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Quote:

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I'm pretty sure CONCORD only does this to capsuleers. CONCORD law is about the only law that applies to us, and they don't want capsuleer wars in high-sec unless the war is registered and the fee paid, so they don't mess around. If a capsuleers makes an unprovoked attack against another capsuleer, they lose their ship.

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That's still pretty cold hearted. I mean they are killing thousands of innocent people when they blow up a playership and the one guy who actually controls the whole thing and was solely responsible gets away with the (practically nonexistant) financial loss. Well and the emotional scarring of leading thousands to their death I guess, but if you look at the actual Capsuleers (the Players) You will have to look pretty hard to find anybody wo gives a flying **** about that.

Ships should cost more for suicide gankers, because word gets around that no one ever comes back

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Originally by: Fergus McRae

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They killed millions of people on the Death Star as well. Not the first one, but the one they destroyed in Return of the Jedi, the one that was still being built by the millions of plumbers, electricians, mechanics, carpenters, welders and so on...

Of course, when asked this question George Lucas said that it was being built by Geonoshans, and they don't matter 'cause they're just bugs... which is just insane, if you think about it, not to mention racist beyond belief.

Anyway...

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Originally by: masternerdguy

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Originally by: Konoch

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When the prices of ships and modules go so high that you cant fit your pretty little HAC for less than it costs for a CNR dont ***** to me. Hulkageddon is pointless dumb and will make prices skyrocket throughout all of eve. Hulks will hit 400 million. Most ships will likely double in price if the current rate of killing continues and POS's will shut down across eve because ice mining is probably going to be the most effected from everything thats happened already. 612 exhumers at last count. Congrats boys you're hitting the supply lines for the entire game now you get to see a glimpse of the future of real life.

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Miners are not the source of all minerals most mins come from missions.

I cannot stress this enough.
Also, most ships are NOT made at ship assembly arrays in POSes.
Also needs stress.

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Originally by: Taran Seikar

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Originally by: Fergus McRae

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They killed millions of people on the Death Star as well. Not the first one, but the one they destroyed in Return of the Jedi, the one that was still being built by the millions of plumbers, electricians, mechanics, carpenters, welders and so on...

Of course, when asked this question George Lucas said that it was being built by Geonoshans, and they don't matter 'cause they're just bugs... which is just insane, if you think about it, not to mention racist beyond belief.

Anyway...

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Wow, you're right. I never thought about that.

Also, all the destroyed Death Star parts rain down on Endor to end Ewok life as we knew it.

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Originally by: Ambein Flambein

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Originally by: Imweasel09

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That doesn't change the fact that most of the minerals on the market (with 1 exception) are coming from missions

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4/8 is not most

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Originally by: necrosia demora

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what a load of rubbish u supporters of hulkadeden speak. you talk about people being stupid for flying hulks or that it doesnt hurt a miner to loose one or even they should fit tank and all their problems go away. CRAP CRAP more CRAP.this is the way it is.these ganktards are just targetting hulks cos they are the most expensive untank capableable ships in eve. if this is not an exploit then there are serious issues with this game. there is no pvp when you have no chance or options to fight bk not to mention how stupid it is that a few mil ship can take out a few hundred mil ship within seconds. you dont see a single bs taking out a rorquel now do you and winning within a few seconds. people, mostly pirates always go on about risk versus reward mostly because the reward is almost always in their favour yet ganking is just pirate reward.

people moan that missions are too profitable yet you gank miners because they cant fight bk. how about you do a missionageddon. then you can have fun fighting someone who is capable of fighting bk. you wont because your all a bunch of cowards.

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Originally by: Imbosol Norand

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Well it is easier to pick on someone who is weak and then blame them for being weak than it is to pick on someone who has guns. It is just the normal school yard bully mentality, i would not pick on the fat kid if he was not fat, weak and unable to run away like the guys on the football team who would kick my ass.

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Originally by: Qarthy

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Edited by: Qarthy on 09/01/2010 07:58:35
I think CCP should stop the payouts of insurance for being blow to hell by Concord or self destructing. Would put an end to suicide ganking and insurance scams.


Still thinks it's stupid that you get paid insurance for getting killed by the cops.

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Originally by: Helicity Boson

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Originally by: Imbosol Norand

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Well it is easier to pick on someone who is weak and then blame them for being weak than it is to pick on someone who has guns. It is just the normal school yard bully mentality, i would not pick on the fat kid if he was not fat, weak and unable to run away like the guys on the football team who would kick my ass.

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in reality, in eve, you pick on the ones too stupid and lazy to learn enough about the game to avoid it. Handily, these also tend to be the types that whine and cry the most, it's like having your cake and eating it too!

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Originally by: necrosia demora

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what a load of rubbish u supporters of hulkadeden speak. you talk about people being stupid for flying hulks or that it doesnt hurt a miner to loose one or even they should fit tank and all their problems go away. CRAP CRAP more CRAP.this is the way it is.these ganktards are just targetting hulks cos they are the most expensive untank capableable ships in eve. if this is not an exploit then there are serious issues with this game. there is no pvp when you have no chance or options to fight bk not to mention how stupid it is that a few mil ship can take out a few hundred mil ship within seconds. you dont see a single bs taking out a rorquel now do you and winning within a few seconds. people, mostly pirates always go on about risk versus reward mostly because the reward is almost always in their favour yet ganking is just pirate reward.

people moan that missions are too profitable yet you gank miners because they cant fight bk. how about you do a missionageddon. then you can have fun fighting someone who is capable of fighting bk. you wont because your all a bunch of cowards.

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Quote:

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Hulkageddon is the kind of thing that makes EVE a fun game.

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Originally by: Helicity Boson

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Let me just state for the record that I find it completely stupid that such large percentages of minerals originate in missions (and the drone regions).

It's bizarre, counter intuitive, and in my opinion, bad for producers and miners alike.

I think they should greatly reduce the number of T1 and low meta items that drop off mission rats, for the dual purposes of reducing l4 income a bit, and increasing the importance of miners in the game.

I also think the game is WELL PAST DUE, for improvements to the *gameplay* of mining, both to make it harder to mine AFK efficiently, and to make it less boring to do so.

Mining should have a gameplay element that is engaging and requires attention, so it's not just a matter of turning on lasers and coming back 10 minutes later, that is not good gamepley design at all.

You're not understanding that the risk vs. reward for l4 missions in high sec is seriously out of whack. Higher rewards requiring team work and risk will ultimately make the game better for everyone, even more so if some pvp is sprinkled into it, because at it's core eve is designed to be a player versus player game.

Not a solo grind fest, you can play great single player games like freelancer for that, and the play experience will be /better/ than running l4s solo in a noob corp.

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Originally by: Akita T

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Edited by: Akita T on 09/01/2010 07:18:38

Originally by: Tzarus

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Any link would be welcome.

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http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=989786&page=2#46 (Linkage)

Originally by: CCP Chronotis

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Posted - 2009.02.04

To give more precise data as the 40% was a figure I used as an overall average was 'of the top of my head' during the meeting taken from the data below.

This was the one month split for all items reprocessed measured mid-august to mid-september 2008.

|| Mineral || Ore% || Loot% || Drone Compounds% ||
||-----------||------||-------||------------------||
|| Tritanium || 46% || 43% || 11% ||
|| Pyerite || 29% || 60% || 10% ||
|| Mexallon || 30% || 59% || 11% ||
|| Isogen || 21% || 56% || 23% ||
|| Nocxium || 18% || 32% || 51% ||
|| Zydrine || 43% || 18% || 40% ||
|| Megacyte || 44% || 39% || 16% ||
|| Morphite || 77% || 1% || 22% ||

* Ore is minerals from the asteroid ores
* loot is modules, ships, charges, drones for example.
* drone compounds are loot items from rogue drones

However, whatever conclusion you draw from those stats, be careful as it does not tell you much really such as how many people were mining or running missions. The number of people running missions is massive compared to number of miners and the source per person much lower overall however it is a large diffuse source. It is a similar story for anytime a player encounters the rogue drones.

The ongoing discussion we are having internally is really around the point of to what degree a specialist profession like mining should be adversely affected by another career path where this forms only one part of their total reward/income pool.

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Dev post good enough for ya' ?

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Originally by: masternerdguy

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2. Everyone seems to think Hulkageddon is mean....it really isnt especially with how avoidable it is. Just don't mine without support. And no, an orca fitted for max profit is not support. Effective mining ops employ hired thugs in their corps flying dominixes to bring the pain on gankers.


Well, i have hulks on both accounts and support Hulk o Mania:) It helps the economy of miners in the long run and hulk builders in the short run.Not to mention cleaning out a lot of bots. So to those of you whining try thinking a bit. Park you hulk and ice miner and wait till the smoke clears. Not only will mineral prices rise but hulk prices will go down to more normal levels in a bit..

The garbage theory about missioners making more on minerals is ludicrous to say the least.

Merc

Quote:

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But what for the future?

We have a taskforce (Named TaskForce Doughnut!) which is dedicated to looking over these changes and proposing plans for the future. We have already started work on the above, but the future holds more changes.

In addition, the highly requested feature of removal of insurance in CONCORD related events will be implemented in the near future.

The CONCORD changes and Security penalty will be hitting TQ this fall, with Empyrean Age 1.1.

Be safe out there!

CCP Fear

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Quote:

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Disclaimer: All mentioned above contains my opinion and is therefore an absolute truth (for me anyway, my universe, muhahaha.....ok, done

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Originally by: Deviana Sevidon

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My recommendation, gradually remove Insurance. Every player gets an Insurance Budget assigned and after this has been used up, no more ship insurance. Maybe you can still leave the basic payout for uninsured ships in, or remove insurance alltogether.

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Originally by: Tason Hyena

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Mr. Kidd, it's a game. Also paragraph breaks are your friend.

Seriously, if this bugs you so much, just take some time off, work on your missions, do some fun PvP with frigates, maybe just pop in to chat while you rediscover other games. If you are going to post detailed psychlogical analysis of player mindsets using your amazing psychic powers while your temples throb with righteous anger, it is getting time to kick back and relax a bit.

Does it suck? Yeah, despite the justifications, I think people are pretty much ganking for lulz. So either get over it, go organize a raid against them, go counter it by not being a target, and save your blood pressure.

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Quote:

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Hulkageddon is the kind of thing that makes EVE a fun game.

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Originally by: Ana Vyr

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Quote:

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Hulkageddon is the kind of thing that makes EVE a fun game.

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Fun for who? I sure didn't have any fun docking my exhumer.

I just think it's pretty sad when the most fun you can have in PvP amounts to letting CONCORD blow up your own ship so you can gank an exhumer. CCP seems to think this is good gameplay though, so carry on.

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Originally by: necrosia demora

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people moan that missions are too profitable yet you gank miners because they cant fight bk. how about you do a missionageddon. then you can have fun fighting someone who is capable of fighting bk. you wont because your all a bunch of cowards.

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Originally by: Tason Hyena

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Mr. Kidd, it's a game. Also paragraph breaks are your friend.

Seriously, if this bugs you so much, just take some time off, work on your missions, do some fun PvP with frigates, maybe just pop in to chat while you rediscover other games. If you are going to post detailed psychlogical analysis of player mindsets using your amazing psychic powers while your temples throb with righteous anger, it is getting time to kick back and relax a bit.

Does it suck? Yeah, despite the justifications, I think people are pretty much ganking for lulz. So either get over it, go organize a raid against them, go counter it by not being a target, and save your blood pressure.

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Originally by: masternerdguy

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That means CCP divided the total ore income from missions by the amount of people running missions for their chart.

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Originally by: Psiri

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Nerf empire lvl IV missions and ore, boost lowsec and force people into there. Nerf suicide ganking into oblivion.

Tadaaa... the game wouldn't suck so much anymore.

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Originally by: Akita T

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Dev post good enough for ya' ?

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Originally by: Psiri

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Nerf empire lvl IV missions and ore, boost lowsec and force people into there. Nerf suicide ganking into oblivion.

Tadaaa... the game wouldn't suck so much anymore.

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