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Hurricane Carter
0ccam's Razor
AN EYE F0R AN EYE
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Posted - 2010.01.20 14:01:00 -
[1]
Right...
I know this'll probably get flamed to hell and back by the "NERF CLOAKZ !!!!!!!" crowd but here goes anyways.
A few months ago CCP decided that Bombers (Stealth Bombers) could not operate proper without getting a Covert Ops Cloaking device for christmas from Santa CCP. This was something that the EVE community as a whole pretty much has been proclaiming for a while and after a long time, CCP "saw the light" and granted us bomber pilots our cloaks.
needless to say that is all ancient history and I don't think anyone DOESN'T like the new stealth bombers, they are awsome  .
Which leads me to the following point,
eventhough Stealth Bombers are now more awsome then ever, they still, in my opinion, require a decent platform to "launch" from. Yes there are gates, titanbridges or just being in a system before your enemy, but comming in through gates is:
- Risky
- Gives Away position & numbers
- results in a turky shoot with good support on a gate.
Comming in through a Titan Bridge is:
- Risky since you have a big "COME GANK ME !!!!!" sign in local in the form of a cyno beacon
- a bit overkill if you just want to move in a few bombers to harass an enemy fleet
and the last "option", comming in through a jumpbridge is the same as a gate, its fairly easely camped, and is normally one of the first things a attacking force will knock out.
To this end the Black Ops was created it seems, with its Covert Ops Jump portal, it lends itsself extremely well to portalling in recon/bomber gangs but unfortionatly this still leaves both the recons and / or the stealthbombers with very little support besides the occasional blockade runner full of bombs / ammo.
Now right now you CAN use your Black ops battleships (from here on in reffered to as "BOBS") aggresively and offensivly, but since they cannot enter the field of strife without getting spotted, and since their cloaked speed is laughable as it is, even with their speed buff while cloaked (or the Panther's speed modifier on the BO Skill) you will still, 99% of the time get zero'd in on by ceptors / assault frigates / dictors who go "OOOHH SHINEY !!!!" and burn straight for your last known position.
Now, this is "acceptable" in such a way that its a expensive ship PVP is all about risk vs reward, but its a bit daft that a ship which is completely builth for the black ops concept, much like Stealth Bombers are and Cloaked Recons are, can not warped cloaked.
So its very simple,
I ask CCP to grant the BOBS the ability to fit a Covert Ops cloaking Device which will enable us BOBS pilots to actually use our ships a bit more since we will have better choice of when / how we will engage.
Now before people go "BUT YOU WILL BE UNKILLABLE !!!!!!!!!" consider this:
Right now BOBS never get fielded unless your almost 100% sure you'll decimate the opponent anyways. "Normally" BOBS are used as mobile jumpbridges for SB's and remain safe for the rest of the duration.
So this will not grant the PVP'rs LESS kill vs Black Ops, or put the black ops pilots at less risk then they are now, but it will actually make sure BOBS get used MORE and get used more OFFENSIVELY, thus giving more oppertunities for them to be ganked / killed / omgwtfbbq'd by whoever they are engaging.
its a win/win scenario really with no drawbacks for the "non cloakiez"
Thoughts, ideas, suggestions ?
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Hurricane Carter
0ccam's Razor
AN EYE F0R AN EYE
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Posted - 2010.01.22 11:28:00 -
[2]
Bump for great justice !! ? :D
No one have any feedback on this ? Bit hard to believe |
Millsy1
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Posted - 2010.01.22 18:19:00 -
[3]
I think you know where I stand on this, but I would actually love a "cloak" that didn't make it invisible to probes or overview, but removed you from local. :). That would really be fun, and fitting with the idea of bobs
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
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Posted - 2010.01.22 18:35:00 -
[4]
1) Thiz ider haz nevar ben sugjested befour...
2) Seeing people in Local? Make Local work like WHs. No one is visible until they speak.
3) I do agree, Black Ops is the big daddy of sneaky ships... but can't play with the archetypal Cloak?
There is no sense in sending a Black Ops along for the ride. It can easily transport troops from High to Low/Null, but is screwed trying to make it back to safety on its own. Unless everyone is dead, you're just running gates in a BS. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.01.23 15:49:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 23/01/2010 15:49:37
 Originally by: Marcus Gideon
1) There is no sense in sending a Black Ops along for the ride. It can easily transport troops from High to Low/Null, but is screwed trying to make it back to safety on its own. Unless everyone is dead, you're just running gates in a BS.
This is exactly what needs to be addressed in order for the BO to become worthwhile, which incidentally is what my brain-fart last night was about 
Introduce high-slot modules simulating characteristics of other ships. Needs full fitting services of a station to online or make them huge to restrict carrying them around everywhere.
Example Redeemer modules:
Logistics; Gains range and capacitor bonus for using Armour RR and energy transfers - Guardian simulation.
Command; Bonus to fitting gang-links and gets a miniature maintenance array able to hold 55-60k m3 (enough for interdictor or two frigs). Also allows in-space fitting - Carrier simulation.
Recon; Gains bonus to neutralizer/nosferatu and TD's and a probing bonus (fitting or strength) - CovOps simulation.
Etc.
Same sort of thing can be done to the others. Would give them a reason to jump with the gang and can provide valuable support in hostile space.
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William Caldon
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.01.23 16:10:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 23/01/2010 15:49:37
Originally by: Marcus Gideon
1) There is no sense in sending a Black Ops along for the ride. It can easily transport troops from High to Low/Null, but is screwed trying to make it back to safety on its own. Unless everyone is dead, you're just running gates in a BS.
This is exactly what needs to be addressed in order for the BO to become worthwhile, which incidentally is what my brain-fart last night was about
Introduce high-slot modules simulating characteristics of other ships. Needs full fitting services of a station to online or make them huge to restrict carrying them around everywhere.
Example Redeemer modules:
Logistics; Gains range and capacitor bonus for using Armour RR and energy transfers - Guardian simulation.
Command; Bonus to fitting gang-links and gets a miniature maintenance array able to hold 55-60k m3 (enough for interdictor or two frigs). Also allows in-space fitting - Carrier simulation.
Recon; Gains bonus to neutralizer/nosferatu and TD's and a probing bonus (fitting or strength) - CovOps simulation.
Etc.
Same sort of thing can be done to the others. Would give them a reason to jump with the gang and can provide valuable support in hostile space.
Black OPs need something more than that, that's just unoriginal and uninteresting.
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Mike C
Caldari
Ipuvaepe Industries
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Posted - 2010.01.23 16:58:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Mike C on 23/01/2010 17:04:18
/signed for my Redeemer, my Widow, and my alt's Sin.
Always thought bobs should have a 50km¦ or 100km¦ ship bay (one frig, two frigs/one cruiser respectively) restricted to JH2.
Originally by: Mike C
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Durzel
Originally by: Sphit Ker
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Ardetia
The Flying Tigers
United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.23 17:09:00 -
[8]
right now, ie. widows, are an economic disaster waiting to happen to anyone who spends time training for it and accidentally purchases one
what is it, 800m after fitted? for a ship that is more or less completely useless
i also have to add:
ecm burst should be a highslot, like smartbombs, freeing up for more ecm or an actual tank on a BATTLESHIP
The Flying Tigers are recruiting! |
Mike C
Caldari
Ipuvaepe Industries
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Posted - 2010.01.23 17:25:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Mike C on 23/01/2010 17:26:00
nearly 800m before fit. Closer to a 1b after fit, but aye. Only thing they're good for is solo ganking and baiting can flippers (have an alt sit in a bantam JC mining into the widow's can, and uncloak + ecm + scram + web + tp + torp the flipper)
EDIT: Oh and playing mini-titan behind POS shields with the portal, which does actually help sometimes.
Originally by: Mike C
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Durzel
Originally by: Sphit Ker
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Meeko Atari
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Posted - 2010.01.23 17:41:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Meeko Atari on 23/01/2010 17:41:11
Originally by: Ardetia
right now, ie. widows, are an economic disaster waiting to happen to anyone who spends time training for it and accidentally purchases one
what is it, 800m after fitted? for a ship that is more or less completely useless
i also have to add:
ecm burst should be a highslot, like smartbombs, freeing up for more ecm or an actual tank on a BATTLESHIP
Or possibly allow the Widow to have the same range that the Scorpion has, its only 20x more expensive with less ECM range than a T1 Blackbird
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Hurricane Carter
0ccam's Razor
AN EYE F0R AN EYE
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Posted - 2010.01.24 12:19:00 -
[11]
perhaps as a added "do want" feature:
Allow Cov Ops cyno's to be popped in Hisec space (so > 0.5 since some people classify 0.1-->0.4 as hisec as well).
This'd actually allow for BOBS to make it home "safe" again AND would give them a use in Hisec Warfare as well, where you could run a neutral alt through a system with Wartargets, then have'm pop a cov ops cyno on the system "behind" said system so a gang could box a system in and camp it in without needing to give away your shiptypes & numbers by actually running your gang through the system where the Wartargets are in ...
That might be wishfull thinking mind you, but it'd be nice to have none the less, and whats the worst thing you are going to do with that ? Bridge Bombers & recons through...
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Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
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Posted - 2010.01.24 12:40:00 -
[12]
If it lowers the CPU usage I'm all for it. Actually, all Black Ops just need a ton more CPU. Why an electronics platform be so CPU limited?
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The Eve Client - A Love Story - The single biggest fix CCP ever did to Eve. Keep it up! |
Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.01.24 13:01:00 -
[13]
Wouldn't Black Ops battleships being able to use CovOps cloak obsolete Recon ships to a certain extent?
I mean if you can jump into a WH in a Black Ops BS, scan someone down, land on them cloaked and unleash 800 DPS+ wouldn't that be a bit overpowered? (yes I realise covops non-prober Proteus isn't far off that but it's an exceptional case)
Just adding Covert Ops cloaking ability to the ship allows it to do far more than what you've suggested.
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King Rothgar
Imperial Slave Hunter Society
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Posted - 2010.01.24 13:26:00 -
[14]
You greatly overestimate the capabilities of the BO's hulls, they are closer to a t1 BC in terms of tank and dps than a normal BS.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.24 13:35:00 -
[15]
They need to be at least as good in a straight up fight as their t1 counterparts. Increased jump/bridge range is also good imo. But fgor the love of god dont give it a freaking cov ops cloak. It is pretty much becoming the standard solution, when in doubt give it a cov ops cloak. We dont need battleships that can warp cloaked.
Being able to bridge ships arouns is a very strong advantage that besides the black ops can only be done by titans, stop underestimating it. Giving it a cov ops cloak will mainly result in them being solo pwnmobiles, while they are supposed to be support for covert ops gangs.
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Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.01.24 14:44:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Schmell on 24/01/2010 14:44:24
Increase jump range and give them damned t2 resists so they could tank better for their price.
But covops cloak is fine too 
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Hurricane Carter
0ccam's Razor
AN EYE F0R AN EYE
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Posted - 2010.01.24 15:25:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Hurricane Carter on 24/01/2010 15:30:55
Originally by: Furb Killer
They need to be at least as good in a straight up fight as their t1 counterparts. Increased jump/bridge range is also good imo. But fgor the love of god dont give it a freaking cov ops cloak. It is pretty much becoming the standard solution, when in doubt give it a cov ops cloak. We dont need battleships that can warp cloaked.
Being able to bridge ships arouns is a very strong advantage that besides the black ops can only be done by titans, stop underestimating it. Giving it a cov ops cloak will mainly result in them being solo pwnmobiles, while they are supposed to be support for covert ops gangs.
and alternatively, NOT giving it a cov ops cloak like it is now, will result on it only being used as a billion isk (fittings) Jumpbridge with crappy fuel consumption, or used on "omgwtfbqq" hotdrops where you outnumber said opponent 20 to 1.
Also, a BLACK OPS ship, which is foccused on BLACK OPS work, NOT having a cov ops cloak is .... well dumb tbh
EDIT:
More range on its own jumpdrive wouldn't be bad neither. not talking nber amounts but.... lets say 6 AU's with cal V or something would be nice
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Veldsparmonster
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Posted - 2010.01.24 15:44:00 -
[18]
Personally, I think the most interesting bit of letting Black Ops fit covert ops cloaks would be the fact that it would mean you could replace the cloaked velocity bonus with something interesting. 
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Millsy1
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Posted - 2010.01.25 16:55:00 -
[19]
There are so many ways they could improve the black ops ships.
Some have already been agreed on by CSM.
They could put some effort in and make it really fit it's name.
Does anyone have a link to where they showed how many black ops there are in game?
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12433412
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.25 17:49:00 -
[20]
/signed
i'll sign this again and again as i don't understand why BO should be the only part of a BO gang that cannot use a cov ops cloak (thus not being able to warp with gang mates)
124
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Beware of what you want, it might want you more! |
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Rajere
No Trademark
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Posted - 2010.01.25 19:15:00 -
[21]
I just want more DPS. T2 resists would be nice also.
The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp
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NOTR
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Offduty Guard
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Posted - 2010.01.25 19:18:00 -
[22]
Oh for f's sake...
Give the BOBS ship the ability to use the cov ops cloak. Do not "Change" the physics of the game at all. If you really wanted to give the cloak complaining noobs, something to be happy about. Make the ship visible like it is to the person flying the ship. That way, people will still be able to see cloaked ships. However, the amount of time people will spend looking in space for the smallest change, a bend or change in the light from a star will cause them to loose interest, or go nuts. I wouldn't see a huge problem to it, you wouldn't be able to see the ships hardly anyways unless you positioned your camera RIGHT on top of the ship. And it would shut these people the hell up. "But i can't see them!!!" Now you can, just look harder, we are out there somewhere....
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Diavolo Delloro
Ghost Militia
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Posted - 2010.01.26 06:56:00 -
[23]
Please? I want to use my redeemer that is collecting dust over a year now.
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Marlona Sky
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.01.26 08:00:00 -
[24]
I really don't want to see black ops be able to warp cloaked. There is a dozen other things they can do to make them worth flying more like some of the ones mentioned above.
- while cloaked you disappear from local
- increase the speed more while cloaked?
- put the HP to be at least where their tier 1 hull is at
I will admit that I do not have anywhere close to the experience as most with the black ops. Probably because I feel like 'something' is missing. I just don't want another warpy-cloaky ship. CCP already said that a battleship that could warp cloaked would be over powered which I agree. Keep the ideas rolling in though.
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Hurricane Carter
0ccam's Razor
AN EYE F0R AN EYE
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Posted - 2010.01.26 09:32:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Marlona Sky
- while cloaked you disappear from local
- increase the speed more while cloaked?
- put the HP to be at least where their tier 1 hull is at
1) Nice but will never happen / be usefull unless you give that to RECON / Stealth bombers as well, who will be the main bulk of the DPS fleet that accompanies any odd Black ops for a "roam".
(I think ALL cov ops cloak / Black Ops ships should have that feature tbh but...)
2) You'd need to "up" the speed a lot tbh before it starts being worth it to do that. And then you need to ask yourself "is a Cloaked battleship going 1km/sec + across the grid really that good a idea ?" (hint: Answer is no)
3) Yhea, that'd be nice but still wouldn't solve the "problem" with BOBS.
I'll reiterate the "problems" that BOBS have:
1) You cannot enter a fight "stealthy", and entering a fight, then cloaking makes a big "GANK ME, I'M EXPENSIVE" sign appear on the hostiles overview who'll be more then happy to ablige. So you "need" to be able to get on grid cloaked and then strike when the time is right or you'll just get wtfganked
2) Very short range on their personal jumpdrives. This seriusly should be upped to the likes of 5.5 at level 4 skills and then 6-> 6.5 at level V in my eyes, because the most stupid jumps in eve at times are already 5.21 LY or something (jumpplanner) which puts a cal IV BOBS right now out of work straight off.
3) Bridging takes a LOT of fuel ! fuel consumption either needs to go down with skill or just baseline reduced a hell of a lot. (or bigger fuel bay....)
4) No tank to speak of. Be it EHP fit or be it tank fit, these puppies just don't "tank" well and most of them (my panther for instance) if you want to be semi effective with it, you need to buffertank it and then rely on a buddy BOBS to RR with you, but 1 RR on either BOBS is not going to do a whole lot. So either a tanking (active) buff or a EHP buff (T2 resists !!!) is defenitly needed for it to be able to compete.
I'd even go so far as to say that, if a BOBS could tank proper the cov ops cloak wouldn't matter so much because then the BOBS could rep a bunch of damage and actually BAIT the hostiles so that the high levels of dps from the stealth bombers can finish the opponent. But, right now there is not enough tank on a BOBS to do it or justify it.
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Millsy1
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Posted - 2010.01.26 18:33:00 -
[26]
The big question... Is CCP taking any serious thought to this right now?
They seem to have their hands full with the huge lag issues, and all the other balancing issues.
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Hurricane Carter
0ccam's Razor
AN EYE F0R AN EYE
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Posted - 2010.02.14 18:58:00 -
[27]
Ba-BUMP
Support it for great Black Ops Justice :D
No seriusly, we need a cov ops cloak on Black Ops
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EdTeach
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Posted - 2010.02.14 21:04:00 -
[28]
Edited by: EdTeach on 14/02/2010 21:06:14
/signed
Now, I haven't been playing all that long, but once I saw Black Ops... I wanted one.
Until I saw the no covert ops.
Now it's just my opinion, but it seems that there is some sort of disconnect here. The ship's entire existance is based on stealth, but it cannot fit the module that is the benchmark of stealth in EVE. Lot of training and isk involved to have the abilities to bring in other covert ops ships, but its very presense screams "Bombers in system" if it decloaks and is scanned/probed.
Has there ever been any posting by CCP on why this ship is hamstrung in its basic role? Is there a balance issue I am not aware of? The one I can up with is if Black Ops fit covert ops cloak ... then another Black Ops can jump through a covert portal, leading to dasiy-chaining deep into space. Fuel usage is the limiting factor here, along with the use of Blockade Runners for fuel.
On my part, I would happily give up 75m3 of drone bay to house the cpu needed to fit the covert ops cloak if that is needed. If a ships is "black ops' it will not want to advertise its presense by launching drones anyway.
On the fuel/range debate ...
Keep fuel use high... this means you need more Black Ops if you want more ships in-system. I believe if Black Ops can fit covert ops cloaks there will be more Black Ops out there, so that problem is self-correcting.
Give the jump range a tweak up. Let 'em loose to do their thing instead of hamstringing them.
I have never been a fan of arbitrary nerfing/boosting of a game item in any game. These things require thought, testing and careful adjustments over time. "Fixing" too many things at once on an item or items can lead to a cascade effect of new problems in my experience(Homeworld Cataclysm comes to mind).
The fuel bays were the latest foray into Black Ops. Once that settles out in CCP-land, I feel confident that other Black Ops areas will be addressed, but it should be addressed in the next content update in a measured manner all the same.
Nerf the drone bay to 'make room' for more cpu banks and let the Black Ops fit a covert cloak.
Then in the next update after that the range/fuel issues can be addressed or not as the usage of the ship goes up.
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.02.14 23:42:00 -
[29]
The same argument can be used for pretty much any ship in the game.
Why not give support ships a covops cloak since they cannot effectively fight for themselves?
Why not give inties a covops cloak so they can zip in undetected and snare someone?
Why not give command ships a covops cloak so they can use more command modules instead of requiring one mother of a tank?
Why not give Freighters a covops cloak since they are slow and easy targets as well as easy to pop because they have no tank?
There is a line that needs to be drawn at how many ships in game have this cloak or you may as well allow every ship to use it. How soon before we see Covert Ops Titans?
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Rogerano
Minmatar
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.02.15 00:31:00 -
[30]
No to everything in this useless thread except allowing the fitment of cov-ops cloak.
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Not happy with something in EVE? An emo whine will doubtless help your cause. |
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