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Matting
NQX Innovations HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.01.29 04:06:00 -
[1]
As I get older in the game I found that my and other corp mates clone costs are getting fairly high. This seems okay when flying something big but when flying cheap frigs or cruisers my pod cost (without any implants) is more than the loss from the ship.
I propose a change to the current clone costs to make it level out as you get older.
Current Costs
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1001/currentclonecost.png
Proposed Costs
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1001/proposedclonecost.png
The idea for this is that after you reach around 20-30 million SP generally you have a lot of support skills at 4-5 and can fly T2 ships or T2 fitted BS. From that SP range you either spec in your race for caps, sub caps or cross train in sub BS ships.
I didnĘt realise how extreme the costs get after the 42m clone in the current system and while it is a great isk sink. It does discourage me from doing more 0.0 roams as my clone would probably cost more than my cheap frig/cruiser after insurance is factored in. I feel the cost of your clone should relate to your plugs as you get older not just your older you are better.
For example: We have two PVP pilots in cruisers, one around 40m sp and one around 95m sp. The characters have maybe a 5% difference in character skills and would come down to player skill/tactics and implants. The 95m SP player might be able to fly all 4 races and multiple caps but does that impact on real pvp performance enough to warrant a 25 million isk different in clone costs? I donĘt think so and please have your say. My graph is not exactly how I want it as I wanted a higher increase around 20-30M sp as I wanted to keep clones under 1M isk until around 10m SP as I remember what itĘs like being a poor newbie.
My graph is LOG((SP in mill)+0.2)*1.9
I donĘt pvp currently that much and currently doing so in low-sec when I get a chance so I donĘt replace my pod that often. This change would hopefully encourage people to make more risks and that the pod risk is more in the implants you choose not based on your age.
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Matting
NQX Innovations HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.01.29 04:13:00 -
[2]
I support my own idea after I've patiently waited for 5 mins.
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2010.01.29 10:22:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Franga on 29/01/2010 10:22:28 I, Franga, from the same corporation and alliance as Matting, support this idea.
However, I wish it known that even if I wasn't in the same corporation and alliance as Matting, I would still support this idea.
EDIT: I, Franga, from the same corporation and alliance as Matting, forgot to click the 'support' button when posting.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2010.01.29 11:47:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Franga Edited by: Franga on 29/01/2010 10:22:28 I, Franga, from the same corporation and alliance as Matting, support this idea.
However, I wish it known that even if I wasn't in the same corporation and alliance as Matting, I would still support this idea.
EDIT: I, Franga, from the same corporation and alliance as Matting, forgot to click the 'support' button when posting.
Smooth post
As for the idea in the OP, it might be good idea with some alterations. The cost should be somewhat larger at the high end and the increase shouldn't be so sudden in the low SP range. But I agree that the increase in clone cost seems a bit too steep. It isn't cripling, but being an old character should't mean your frigate/cruiser roams keep getting financially significantly more demanding, although the actual equipment you use doesn't change in any way. The loss should be based on the hardware you use, not your SP count.
As for reducing the ISK sink, I admit that might be an issue, I would still prefer that the sink be relocated away from the actual clone loss to other areas. Dare I mention slightly reduced insurance payment to balance it. Since you lose just the ship much more often than your pod, the decrease in payment percentages wouldn't need to be significant. I don't really care how it is balanced though.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.01.29 13:32:00 -
[5]
Not supported.
The argument that your pod costs more to replace than your ship at higher skill point levels is disingenuous. You specifically mention T1 frigate/cruiser roams so let's look at that specifically.
Currently, the most expensive Minmatar Frigate on the regional market where I am is the Rifter, weighing in at 160,000 ISK. The most expensive Cruiser is the Rupture at 4.9 million.
A full set of +2 Attribute implants which are, let's be honest, pretty cheap as implants go, will run you about 12 million ISK (they're averaging about 2.5 million ISk each where I am). That's 2.5 times as much as the Rupture and about 78 times as expensive than the Rifter. Even with fittings, unless you're including rigs and/or officer mods, you'd have a hard time hitting 12 million with the Rifter, though you could probably exceed it with the Rupture. And let's be honest, if you're fitting officer mods, your clone is really the least of your expenses.
Additionally, your suggested scale would reduce the isk sink for older characters by close to 90% at the 100 million skill point mark, while increasing the cost at the 5 million mark by nearly 1000%. So you move the ISK sink away from the area it's really needed, tht being precisely those older characters who generally have the most liquid assets and place it squarely on the people least able to to keep up with it.
--Vel
Forum Mom: Spanking the snot out of little brats. |
Wyke Mossari
Gallente Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.01.29 14:00:00 -
[6]
Strongly Opposed.
This harms new players who have few paths to make the isk for clones and rewards well established character that have many paths to make the isk for clones.
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2010.01.29 14:12:00 -
[7]
Originally by: De'Veldrin The argument that your pod costs more to replace than your ship at higher skill point levels is disingenuous. You specifically mention T1 frigate/cruiser roams so let's look at that specifically.
(Poster then rambles a bunch of figures and seems to use faction/officer fitted ruptures as his argument support)
Saying it's disingenuous is really rude and hurtful.
It also misses the point. My clones cost 20mil a pop clean. Using your idea of plugging it with +2s means it now costs 32mil. What the OP is suggesting is that having a 32mil clone to fly a 3-5mil rifter discourages him from roaming more in null-sec where the chance of being podded is far, far higher.
Lets say that you want to go out and have some cheap fun (because you don't have the time to sit and pour over market figures and trade or run missions and grind or whatever other time sink to make money) and you've got 5 x 5mil rifters fit. So 25mil of hardware. You're going to null-sec and get podded at least 3 of those times and lose the rifter all 5 times.
That's 25mil hardware you've lost but 66mil worth of clones. The night has cost you 89mil for 5 cheap ships and all I wanted to do was have a go at a few ceptors and then die to the eventual blob at a gate. As a rule, I'm not a big fan of throwing away nearly 90mil just because I feel like soloing and that prohibits me from going to null-sec, something CCP would like to see more of.
Quote: Additionally, your suggested scale would reduce the isk sink for older characters by close to 90% at the 100 million skill point mark.
But remember, we're all flying around in officer fitted ruptures. We're sinking enough ISK anyway. Seriously though, have a look at the graphs again and look at the OPs arguments. There isn't a huge amount of difference (SP effectiveness wise) between a 20-30mil player and a 70-100mil SP player.
Going back to your rifter/clone idea (but without the +2s). It costs the lower SP player maybe 26mil (5 x rifter, 3 x 100k clone). The higher SP player around 80 (5 x rifer, 3 x 20mil ISK clone). Srsly, 55mil ISK difference?
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2010.01.29 14:36:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
Strongly Opposed.
This harms new players who have few paths to make the isk for clones and rewards well established character that have many paths to make the isk for clones.
A new player has to raise 40k for a clone, if that. That's harmful?
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.01.29 15:22:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Franga Saying it's disingenuous is really rude and hurtful.
I thought that was nicer than saying that if you can't save your pod by the time you have 20 million skillpoints, you're an idiot. Lesser of two evils, my good man, lesser of two evils.
Eve is a game of choice and consequence. If you have enough skill points that your clone is a cost consideration (and I mean a real one, not a lol-cost) then you (should) have been playing the game long enough to accurately evaluate the real costs of the activities you are about to undertake and make your choices appropriately. You want the choice without the (potential) consequences, and that is something I will never support. --Vel
Forum Mom: Spanking the snot out of little brats. |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2010.01.29 15:44:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 29/01/2010 15:45:16
Originally by: Franga
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
Strongly Opposed.
This harms new players who have few paths to make the isk for clones and rewards well established character that have many paths to make the isk for clones.
A new player has to raise 40k for a clone, if that. That's harmful?
40K? Your throwing a fit over 40k?
Dude.... I make that in 2 minutes and your throwing a fit over 40k!!?!
Not supporting. Bloody hell... of all the stupid reasons. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2010.01.29 16:11:00 -
[11]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Franga Saying it's disingenuous is really rude and hurtful.
I thought that was nicer than saying that if you can't save your pod by the time you have 20 million skillpoints, you're an idiot. Lesser of two evils, my good man, lesser of two evils.
Eve is a game of choice and consequence. If you have enough skill points that your clone is a cost consideration (and I mean a real one, not a lol-cost) then you (should) have been playing the game long enough to accurately evaluate the real costs of the activities you are about to undertake and make your choices appropriately. You want the choice without the (potential) consequences, and that is something I will never support.
We know how to save our pods thank you very much, but in 0.0 there are AOE warp scramblers that you can't escape and even if you escape you have a very risky road ahead to get to your new ship. If your opponent wants you podded, you will be podded. Dying isn't the issue it is that the minimum cost of podding gets increased too much. This reduces your options you have as a player based just on your SP count.
You talk about consequenses for my choices, but my only alternatives are to live with increased costs, never set foot in 0.0 or stop training my characters. Why would you want to force those choices on people? How would allowing old characters to have low cost PvP fun be a bad thing for the game? To achieve this they will have to fly weaker ships and don't have any advantages over newer players flying the same ships. Why would you want to exclude them from having low cost fun in cheap ships because of the amount of SP they have? It is the exact same choice a newer player can take, so should we remove the option from them too, since it is just a way to avoid potential consequenses?
As you can see what we ask is for the same options to remain open to us as older characters as we had as newbs. The numbers in the OP are a bit silly, but why is the idea that the cost level should be decided by the tools/items you use instead your age bad? If anything it would actually give you the option to be casual about your losses, if you choose to limit yourself in the equipment you use.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2010.01.29 16:57:00 -
[12]
Poor excuse.
I live in 0.0 with said risks and know all to well what happens out here.
The costs are justified due to the sheer abilities you would have at that kind of SP count.
That and you can make that ISK VERY EASILY out here.
You would know that if you DID live out here.
Otherwise your not doing it right. : O P
Hell I've made more ISK out here in 0.0 than I would in high sec.... that says something. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Laedy
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Posted - 2010.01.29 17:47:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Drake Draconis Poor excuse.
I live in 0.0 with said risks and know all to well what happens out here.
The costs are justified due to the sheer abilities you would have at that kind of SP count.
That and you can make that ISK VERY EASILY out here.
You would know that if you DID live out here.
Otherwise your not doing it right. : O P
Hell I've made more ISK out here in 0.0 than I would in high sec.... that says something.
It's pretty easy to live and make ISK in 0.0, and to generally be a carebear/ratter and avoid getting podded.
The point is, if you're actually pvp'ing in 0.0 as a higher SP character (taking risks/jumping into gate camps and bubbles - not just carebearing), the frequent podding/upgrading clones can end up costing too much for it to be worth it for some people.
If I owned a 90 mil SP plus character and I wanted to fly T1 frigs in 0.0 (or for some reason didn't have enough isk to keep updating 20-30mil ISK clones) I would probably just end up making a new character/alt to fly frigs with.
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2010.01.29 22:53:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Drake Draconis Edited by: Drake Draconis on 29/01/2010 15:45:16
Originally by: Franga
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
Strongly Opposed.
This harms new players who have few paths to make the isk for clones and rewards well established character that have many paths to make the isk for clones.
A new player has to raise 40k for a clone, if that. That's harmful?
40K? Your throwing a fit over 40k?
Dude.... I make that in 2 minutes and your throwing a fit over 40k!!?!
Not supporting. Bloody hell... of all the stupid reasons.
Excellent job on not reading the OP. Well done.
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2010.01.29 23:06:00 -
[15]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Franga Saying it's disingenuous is really rude and hurtful.
I thought that was nicer than saying that if you can't save your pod by the time you have 20 million skillpoints, you're an idiot.
Please explain how I get my pod away from a HIC or warp bubble. And again, missing the point. WE don't mind losing our pod, we mind paying 20-30mil per loss.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2010.01.29 23:09:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 29/01/2010 23:09:52 Go talk to Goonswarm and PL and all those other bigshots and ask them how they do it.
They will all tell you the same thing.. they go rat... mine.... build.... just like everyone else.
You PVP... you don't make money.... that's your problem... not mine. You wana get down and dirty about cost? What about the ship? The Mods? The Insurance?
clones are nothing to that.
You have no business PVP'ing if you can't afford to replace your clone to begin with. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2010.01.29 23:28:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Drake Draconis Poor excuse.
I live in 0.0 with said risks and know all to well what happens out here.
The costs are justified due to the sheer abilities you would have at that kind of SP count.
That and you can make that ISK VERY EASILY out here.
You would know that if you DID live out here.
Otherwise your not doing it right. : O P
Hell I've made more ISK out here in 0.0 than I would in high sec.... that says something.
I'm just using the same criteria to evaluate the idea(the current medical clone cost) as all the new ideas we have here. The fact that this was implemented a long time ago doesn't make it any better. I agree in that you can make the isk relatively easily, but that is besides the point to a degree. There should be increased cost to a point, but I think it should be either capped there or stop the rediculously high rate of increase.
The point is while the system does allow you to have increased ability, taking advantage of it is always tied to different kind of items. You have the same exact ability in those cheap ships as a guy whose clone cost pittance compared to yours. If you want to utilize your increased ability, you will need to utilize expensive gear/ships/implants. The loss and cost of them should be the primary risk associated with death. A cap on the cost also future proofs the system. Now we have a decent amount of people well over 100 mil and EVE shows no signs of dying soon. For them it's 30 mil ISK per podding now and it will only get worse without any real benefit to the game or is there some reason to believe people will like grinding money more when they get so much SP? Not to mention not everyone is rich and would like an option to keep the cost of losses to a minimum.
What will things look 5 years from now when that is what a large portion of the players could have to pay and it is double to triple that to the most skilled. The real problem I have with it, and I know I'm repeating what I already said here, is that there is no good way to mitigate/reduce this cost. You are forced to pay it as a penalty for training your character too long. A minimum of 30, 65 or 90 mil loss for flying a T1 frigate with no advantages over younger pilots just because you kept training a single character. How does this make sense in any way?
I'll repeat again that what the OP proposed is just too little, but what reason is there to keep raising the clone cost indefinitely? Why not a system where it is capped for example @30 mil ISK at 120 mil SP mark. After that your clone can hold infinite amount of SP and that is it. No more upgrading your clone, just buying a new one after being podded. If you feel it is just too little for you, you will have the option to increase the risk and cost of death as high as you want, but are not forced to do that by an unavoidable game mechanic, that punishes having a high SP character. Just because it was one of the earlier mechanics and ISK sinks CCP thought of doesn't mean it isn't open to review.
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2010.01.29 23:30:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Drake Draconis Edited by: Drake Draconis on 29/01/2010 23:09:52 Go talk to Goonswarm and PL and all those other bigshots and ask them how they do it.
They will all tell you the same thing.. they go rat... mine.... build.... just like everyone else.
You PVP... you don't make money.... that's your problem... not mine. You wana get down and dirty about cost? What about the ship? The Mods? The Insurance?
clones are nothing to that.
You have no business PVP'ing if you can't afford to replace your clone to begin with.
Drake is an expert and well placed to comment on PVP.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2010.01.29 23:32:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 29/01/2010 23:37:33 Edited by: Drake Draconis on 29/01/2010 23:33:51 Edited by: Drake Draconis on 29/01/2010 23:32:56 The way I see it... someone who has played that long will not have an issue when it comes to making ISK... and will be smart enough to gauge the risks and not be so gutsy.
With time comes experience... and experience is the thing that allows you to succeed with practice. So yes... I tend to agree its a bit of a sour taste but then I don't take risks to the point of ended up upside down financially either. ---------
Quote:
Drake is an expert and well placed to comment on PVP.
Do I look like I give a #### what you think when it comes to killboards?
Yay... you saw I've been podded what... twice in my entire time I've played this game?
Gee... lost some ships over the lifespan of playing EVE... gee golly wizz.
What does that mean? Means I'm cautious... careful... obviously I'm industry. Killed a few as well.
Good for you.... gold star for you.... now go away and let the grown ups talk.
*Oh yes... battle-clicic is the holy grail and authority on anyone's PVP skill yay!* ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Xialis
NQX Innovations HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.01.30 03:28:00 -
[20]
I, Xialis, being for the same corp and alliance as the OP, support this proposal.
We all want more PVP, but if high clone costs are keeping people from saying 'what the heck I'll go join that fleet' for fear of losing a 30mil+ clone because they don't see 30mil of benefit from the fight. Effectively lowering the number of people pvping in a pvp game.
High sp chars in low ability ships don't have much advantage over low sp chars in the same ships, so why should they be force to grind up much more isk to fight in those same ships? This grind also keeps people from fighting as they are too busy grinding up some isk.
Yes, you can make heaps of money in 0.0 but you have to actually be doing that, making money, not PVPing.
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Matting
NQX Innovations HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.01.30 05:40:00 -
[21]
Thanks for the support and mostly friendly discussion.
I think Destination SkillQueue and Xialis explained the cost/performance better than I did. Why be wasting more time making money for your clone when the benefits are so low.
Also I understand my proposed graph wasn't friendly to younger players and I wasn't happy with it. I have now revised my numbers a bit and made a beter looking graph that makes the higher end higher and cheaper for the younger players. My costs are based around that the first clone is at 1M skill points and should be fairly cheap.
New proposed costs
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1001/proposedclonecostv2.png
The costs I've mentioned are just ones I'm using to demonstrate. My proposal is really about changing the cost to benefit ratio at high SP.
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PrimaryIS
NQX Innovations HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.01.30 06:24:00 -
[22]
Strongly supported.
Players are already risking implants and their ship, it doesn't make much sense for older players to be penalized just because they have more SP.
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vvendel
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Posted - 2010.01.30 07:08:00 -
[23]
Originally by: PrimaryIS Strongly supported.
Players are already risking implants and their ship, it doesn't make much sense for older players to be penalized just because they have more SP.
Isn't that the idea? If you are flying a class of ship way lower than your SP would normally dictate or you are highly diversified across a wide spread of things then you should indeed have a steep financial drawback for flying around in smaller things meant for lower SP players. Yeah you can make that choice just like everyone else... except if you do make that choice you are taking up a slot a younger player could be using so why not pay a cost for that right. Elsewise go start an alt or let someone with less SP in your roam spot.
This game does not need anything added to help out older higher SP characters financially. They already run the show. Let new guys gain some footholds here or you will end up with an indestructible glass ceiling.
Re-balance the sink? If the sink is still there why even bother? It's alot of busy work to make the game cater to your personal play patterns and style more. This is not a "pleases many" idea.... so far it's mostly just a "pleases this corp/alliance idea". Knock it down.
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Daco Cutter
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2010.01.30 08:59:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Daco Cutter on 30/01/2010 09:01:46 I'm am in full support of this, granted i am a fellow corpie of the OP but if you really have a look at the proposed changes they make sence.
It is no wonder when people start getting up higher in SP they ditch 0.0 because it is too easy to lose your pod, and that cost of replacing starts to hit you hard.
Anyway to all you haters out there, stop and look at it from a 50mil+ SP pvp characters POV. -------------
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Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.01.30 10:37:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
Strongly Opposed.
This harms new players who have few paths to make the isk for clones and rewards well established character that have many paths to make the isk for clones.
THat. Although i would support removal of exponential cost increase and replacing it with a straight line. I don't honestly see anything positive in a close costing over 30 mill. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes.StevieSG |
Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2010.01.30 21:52:00 -
[26]
Originally by: vvendel Yeah you can make that choice just like everyone else... except if you do make that choice you are taking up a slot a younger player could be using so why not pay a cost for that right.
Taking up a slot?
Quote: This game does not need anything added to help out older higher SP characters financially. They already run the show.
This is a horribly flawed argument that a few have used and not just in this thread. The main determining in ISK making ability in EVE is time. Time to grind out the missions, time to maintain your POS network, time to run exploration sites, time to sit and mine, time to trade (with trading probably being the least time intensive of those). Unless you own a t2 BPO, in which case you can make the money with less time investment.
I can guarantee there are players 1/4 my age with more money than I have or have ever spent in the game.
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Maxsim Goratiev
Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.01.30 22:24:00 -
[27]
if it was up to me to decide, i would remove the whole clone thing all together. maybe a small symbolical fee. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes.StevieSG |
Daco Cutter
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2010.01.31 01:42:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Franga
Quote: This game does not need anything added to help out older higher SP characters financially. They already run the show.
This is a horribly flawed argument that a few have used and not just in this thread. The main determining in ISK making ability in EVE is time.
This tbh.
Did you ever think about the fact that some players just want to jump on for an hour or 2 blow some stuff up then jump off? Not spend a couple of hours *shudders* grinding for isk. Just because a char is old in the game doesn't mean they have mountains of isk. My char is 2 and a half years old and I only sit on 300mil, which pvping is all i do and if you have a bad run and die lots then the loses start adding up and next thing you know you are below 100mil. -------------
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.01.31 02:23:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Daco Cutter
Just because a char is old in the game doesn't mean they have mountains of isk. My char is 2 and a half years old and I only sit on 300mil, which pvping is all i do and if you have a bad run and die lots then the loses start adding up and next thing you know you are below 100mil.
An then you might have to ... do something else for a while. The horror.
That would be like...like a miner having to PvP when they just want to mine some ore. How very rude. --Vel
Forum Mom: Spanking the snot out of little brats. |
PrimaryIS
Caldari NQX Innovations HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.01.31 02:29:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Franga
Originally by: vvendel Yeah you can make that choice just like everyone else... except if you do make that choice you are taking up a slot a younger player could be using so why not pay a cost for that right.
Taking up a slot?
Taking up a slot?
Originally by: vvendel Isn't that the idea? If you are flying a class of ship way lower than your SP would normally dictate or you are highly diversified across a wide spread of things then you should indeed have a steep financial drawback for flying around in smaller things meant for lower SP players. Yeah you can make that choice just like everyone else... except if you do make that choice you are taking up a slot a younger player could be using so why not pay a cost for that right. Elsewise go start an alt or let someone with less SP in your roam spot.
So basically what you're saying is that older players shouldn't be running around in cheap ships?
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