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[Proposal] Clone Costs

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Matting NQX Innovations HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.01.29 04:06:00 - [1] As I get older in the game I found that my and other corp mates clone costs are getting fairly high. This seems okay when flying something big but when flying cheap frigs or cruisers my pod cost (without any implants) is more than the loss from the ship. I propose a change to the current clone costs to make it level out as you get older. Current Costs http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1001/currentclonecost.png Proposed Costs http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1001/proposedclonecost.png The idea for this is that after you reach around 20-30 million SP generally you have a lot of support skills at 4-5 and can fly T2 ships or T2 fitted BS. From that SP range you either spec in your race for caps, sub caps or cross train in sub BS ships. I didnÆt realise how extreme the costs get after the 42m clone in the current system and while it is a great isk sink. It does discourage me from doing more 0.0 roams as my clone would probably cost more than my cheap frig/cruiser after insurance is factored in. I feel the cost of your clone should relate to your plugs as you get older not just your older you are better. For example: We have two PVP pilots in cruisers, one around 40m sp and one around 95m sp. The characters have maybe a 5% difference in character skills and would come down to player skill/tactics and implants. The 95m SP player might be able to fly all 4 races and multiple caps but does that impact on real pvp performance enough to warrant a 25 million isk different in clone costs? I donÆt think so and please have your say. My graph is not exactly how I want it as I wanted a higher increase around 20-30M sp as I wanted to keep clones under 1M isk until around 10m SP as I remember what itÆs like being a poor newbie. My graph is LOG((SP in mill)+0.2)*1.9 I donÆt pvp currently that much and currently doing so in low-sec when I get a chance so I donÆt replace my pod that often. This change would hopefully encourage people to make more risks and that the pod risk is more in the implants you choose not based on your age.
Matting NQX Innovations HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.01.29 04:13:00 - [2] I support my own idea after I've patiently waited for 5 mins.
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2010.01.29 10:22:00 - [3] Edited by: Franga on 29/01/2010 10:22:28 I, Franga, from the same corporation and alliance as Matting, support this idea. However, I wish it known that even if I wasn't in the same corporation and alliance as Matting, I would still support this idea. EDIT: I, Franga, from the same corporation and alliance as Matting, forgot to click the 'support' button when posting.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2010.01.29 11:47:00 - [4] Originally by: Franga Edited by: Franga on 29/01/2010 10:22:28 I, Franga, from the same corporation and alliance as Matting, support this idea. However, I wish it known that even if I wasn't in the same corporation and alliance as Matting, I would still support this idea. EDIT: I, Franga, from the same corporation and alliance as Matting, forgot to click the 'support' button when posting. Smooth post As for the idea in the OP, it might be good idea with some alterations. The cost should be somewhat larger at the high end and the increase shouldn't be so sudden in the low SP range. But I agree that the increase in clone cost seems a bit too steep. It isn't cripling, but being an old character should't mean your frigate/cruiser roams keep getting financially significantly more demanding, although the actual equipment you use doesn't change in any way. The loss should be based on the hardware you use, not your SP count. As for reducing the ISK sink, I admit that might be an issue, I would still prefer that the sink be relocated away from the actual clone loss to other areas. Dare I mention slightly reduced insurance payment to balance it. Since you lose just the ship much more often than your pod, the decrease in payment percentages wouldn't need to be significant. I don't really care how it is balanced though.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.01.29 13:32:00 - [5] Not supported. The argument that your pod costs more to replace than your ship at higher skill point levels is disingenuous. You specifically mention T1 frigate/cruiser roams so let's look at that specifically. Currently, the most expensive Minmatar Frigate on the regional market where I am is the Rifter, weighing in at 160,000 ISK. The most expensive Cruiser is the Rupture at 4.9 million. A full set of +2 Attribute implants which are, let's be honest, pretty cheap as implants go, will run you about 12 million ISK (they're averaging about 2.5 million ISk each where I am). That's 2.5 times as much as the Rupture and about 78 times as expensive than the Rifter. Even with fittings, unless you're including rigs and/or officer mods, you'd have a hard time hitting 12 million with the Rifter, though you could probably exceed it with the Rupture. And let's be honest, if you're fitting officer mods, your clone is really the least of your expenses. Additionally, your suggested scale would reduce the isk sink for older characters by close to 90% at the 100 million skill point mark, while increasing the cost at the 5 million mark by nearly 1000%. So you move the ISK sink away from the area it's really needed, tht being precisely those older characters who generally have the most liquid assets and place it squarely on the people least able to to keep up with it. --Vel Forum Mom: Spanking the snot out of little brats.
Wyke Mossari Gallente Staner Industries	Posted - 2010.01.29 14:00:00 - [6] Strongly Opposed. This harms new players who have few paths to make the isk for clones and rewards well established character that have many paths to make the isk for clones.
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2010.01.29 14:12:00 - [7] Originally by: De'Veldrin The argument that your pod costs more to replace than your ship at higher skill point levels is disingenuous. You specifically mention T1 frigate/cruiser roams so let's look at that specifically. (Poster then rambles a bunch of figures and seems to use faction/officer fitted ruptures as his argument support) Saying it's disingenuous is really rude and hurtful. It also misses the point. My clones cost 20mil a pop clean. Using your idea of plugging it with +2s means it now costs 32mil. What the OP is suggesting is that having a 32mil clone to fly a 3-5mil rifter discourages him from roaming more in null-sec where the chance of being podded is far, far higher. Lets say that you want to go out and have some cheap fun (because you don't have the time to sit and pour over market figures and trade or run missions and grind or whatever other time sink to make money) and you've got 5 x 5mil rifters fit. So 25mil of hardware. You're going to null-sec and get podded at least 3 of those times and lose the rifter all 5 times. That's 25mil hardware you've lost but 66mil worth of clones. The night has cost you 89mil for 5 cheap ships and all I wanted to do was have a go at a few ceptors and then die to the eventual blob at a gate. As a rule, I'm not a big fan of throwing away nearly 90mil just because I feel like soloing and that prohibits me from going to null-sec, something CCP would like to see more of. Quote: Additionally, your suggested scale would reduce the isk sink for older characters by close to 90% at the 100 million skill point mark. But remember, we're all flying around in officer fitted ruptures. We're sinking enough ISK anyway. Seriously though, have a look at the graphs again and look at the OPs arguments. There isn't a huge amount of difference (SP effectiveness wise) between a 20-30mil player and a 70-100mil SP player. Going back to your rifter/clone idea (but without the +2s). It costs the lower SP player maybe 26mil (5 x rifter, 3 x 100k clone). The higher SP player around 80 (5 x rifer, 3 x 20mil ISK clone). Srsly, 55mil ISK difference?
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2010.01.29 14:36:00 - [8] Originally by: Wyke Mossari Strongly Opposed. This harms new players who have few paths to make the isk for clones and rewards well established character that have many paths to make the isk for clones. A new player has to raise 40k for a clone, if that. That's harmful?
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.01.29 15:22:00 - [9] Originally by: Franga Saying it's disingenuous is really rude and hurtful. I thought that was nicer than saying that if you can't save your pod by the time you have 20 million skillpoints, you're an idiot. Lesser of two evils, my good man, lesser of two evils. Eve is a game of choice and consequence. If you have enough skill points that your clone is a cost consideration (and I mean a real one, not a lol-cost) then you (should) have been playing the game long enough to accurately evaluate the real costs of the activities you are about to undertake and make your choices appropriately. You want the choice without the (potential) consequences, and that is something I will never support. --Vel Forum Mom: Spanking the snot out of little brats.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.01.29 15:44:00 - [10] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 29/01/2010 15:45:16 Originally by: Franga Originally by: Wyke Mossari Strongly Opposed. This harms new players who have few paths to make the isk for clones and rewards well established character that have many paths to make the isk for clones. A new player has to raise 40k for a clone, if that. That's harmful? 40K? Your throwing a fit over 40k? Dude.... I make that in 2 minutes and your throwing a fit over 40k!!?! Not supporting. Bloody hell... of all the stupid reasons. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2010.01.29 16:11:00 - [11] Originally by: De'Veldrin Originally by: Franga Saying it's disingenuous is really rude and hurtful. I thought that was nicer than saying that if you can't save your pod by the time you have 20 million skillpoints, you're an idiot. Lesser of two evils, my good man, lesser of two evils. Eve is a game of choice and consequence. If you have enough skill points that your clone is a cost consideration (and I mean a real one, not a lol-cost) then you (should) have been playing the game long enough to accurately evaluate the real costs of the activities you are about to undertake and make your choices appropriately. You want the choice without the (potential) consequences, and that is something I will never support. We know how to save our pods thank you very much, but in 0.0 there are AOE warp scramblers that you can't escape and even if you escape you have a very risky road ahead to get to your new ship. If your opponent wants you podded, you will be podded. Dying isn't the issue it is that the minimum cost of podding gets increased too much. This reduces your options you have as a player based just on your SP count. You talk about consequenses for my choices, but my only alternatives are to live with increased costs, never set foot in 0.0 or stop training my characters. Why would you want to force those choices on people? How would allowing old characters to have low cost PvP fun be a bad thing for the game? To achieve this they will have to fly weaker ships and don't have any advantages over newer players flying the same ships. Why would you want to exclude them from having low cost fun in cheap ships because of the amount of SP they have? It is the exact same choice a newer player can take, so should we remove the option from them too, since it is just a way to avoid potential consequenses? As you can see what we ask is for the same options to remain open to us as older characters as we had as newbs. The numbers in the OP are a bit silly, but why is the idea that the cost level should be decided by the tools/items you use instead your age bad? If anything it would actually give you the option to be casual about your losses, if you choose to limit yourself in the equipment you use.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.01.29 16:57:00 - [12] Poor excuse. I live in 0.0 with said risks and know all to well what happens out here. The costs are justified due to the sheer abilities you would have at that kind of SP count. That and you can make that ISK VERY EASILY out here. You would know that if you DID live out here. Otherwise your not doing it right. : O P Hell I've made more ISK out here in 0.0 than I would in high sec.... that says something. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Laedy	Posted - 2010.01.29 17:47:00 - [13] Originally by: Drake Draconis Poor excuse. I live in 0.0 with said risks and know all to well what happens out here. The costs are justified due to the sheer abilities you would have at that kind of SP count. That and you can make that ISK VERY EASILY out here. You would know that if you DID live out here. Otherwise your not doing it right. : O P Hell I've made more ISK out here in 0.0 than I would in high sec.... that says something. It's pretty easy to live and make ISK in 0.0, and to generally be a carebear/ratter and avoid getting podded. The point is, if you're actually pvp'ing in 0.0 as a higher SP character (taking risks/jumping into gate camps and bubbles - not just carebearing), the frequent podding/upgrading clones can end up costing too much for it to be worth it for some people. If I owned a 90 mil SP plus character and I wanted to fly T1 frigs in 0.0 (or for some reason didn't have enough isk to keep updating 20-30mil ISK clones) I would probably just end up making a new character/alt to fly frigs with.
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2010.01.29 22:53:00 - [14] Originally by: Drake Draconis Edited by: Drake Draconis on 29/01/2010 15:45:16 Originally by: Franga Originally by: Wyke Mossari Strongly Opposed. This harms new players who have few paths to make the isk for clones and rewards well established character that have many paths to make the isk for clones. A new player has to raise 40k for a clone, if that. That's harmful? 40K? Your throwing a fit over 40k? Dude.... I make that in 2 minutes and your throwing a fit over 40k!!?! Not supporting. Bloody hell... of all the stupid reasons. Excellent job on not reading the OP. Well done.
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2010.01.29 23:06:00 - [15] Originally by: De'Veldrin Originally by: Franga Saying it's disingenuous is really rude and hurtful. I thought that was nicer than saying that if you can't save your pod by the time you have 20 million skillpoints, you're an idiot. Please explain how I get my pod away from a HIC or warp bubble. And again, missing the point. WE don't mind losing our pod, we mind paying 20-30mil per loss.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.01.29 23:09:00 - [16] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 29/01/2010 23:09:52 Go talk to Goonswarm and PL and all those other bigshots and ask them how they do it. They will all tell you the same thing.. they go rat... mine.... build.... just like everyone else. You PVP... you don't make money.... that's your problem... not mine. You wana get down and dirty about cost? What about the ship? The Mods? The Insurance? clones are nothing to that. You have no business PVP'ing if you can't afford to replace your clone to begin with. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2010.01.29 23:28:00 - [17] Originally by: Drake Draconis Poor excuse. I live in 0.0 with said risks and know all to well what happens out here. The costs are justified due to the sheer abilities you would have at that kind of SP count. That and you can make that ISK VERY EASILY out here. You would know that if you DID live out here. Otherwise your not doing it right. : O P Hell I've made more ISK out here in 0.0 than I would in high sec.... that says something. I'm just using the same criteria to evaluate the idea(the current medical clone cost) as all the new ideas we have here. The fact that this was implemented a long time ago doesn't make it any better. I agree in that you can make the isk relatively easily, but that is besides the point to a degree. There should be increased cost to a point, but I think it should be either capped there or stop the rediculously high rate of increase. The point is while the system does allow you to have increased ability, taking advantage of it is always tied to different kind of items. You have the same exact ability in those cheap ships as a guy whose clone cost pittance compared to yours. If you want to utilize your increased ability, you will need to utilize expensive gear/ships/implants. The loss and cost of them should be the primary risk associated with death. A cap on the cost also future proofs the system. Now we have a decent amount of people well over 100 mil and EVE shows no signs of dying soon. For them it's 30 mil ISK per podding now and it will only get worse without any real benefit to the game or is there some reason to believe people will like grinding money more when they get so much SP? Not to mention not everyone is rich and would like an option to keep the cost of losses to a minimum. What will things look 5 years from now when that is what a large portion of the players could have to pay and it is double to triple that to the most skilled. The real problem I have with it, and I know I'm repeating what I already said here, is that there is no good way to mitigate/reduce this cost. You are forced to pay it as a penalty for training your character too long. A minimum of 30, 65 or 90 mil loss for flying a T1 frigate with no advantages over younger pilots just because you kept training a single character. How does this make sense in any way? I'll repeat again that what the OP proposed is just too little, but what reason is there to keep raising the clone cost indefinitely? Why not a system where it is capped for example @30 mil ISK at 120 mil SP mark. After that your clone can hold infinite amount of SP and that is it. No more upgrading your clone, just buying a new one after being podded. If you feel it is just too little for you, you will have the option to increase the risk and cost of death as high as you want, but are not forced to do that by an unavoidable game mechanic, that punishes having a high SP character. Just because it was one of the earlier mechanics and ISK sinks CCP thought of doesn't mean it isn't open to review.
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2010.01.29 23:30:00 - [18] Originally by: Drake Draconis Edited by: Drake Draconis on 29/01/2010 23:09:52 Go talk to Goonswarm and PL and all those other bigshots and ask them how they do it. They will all tell you the same thing.. they go rat... mine.... build.... just like everyone else. You PVP... you don't make money.... that's your problem... not mine. You wana get down and dirty about cost? What about the ship? The Mods? The Insurance? clones are nothing to that. You have no business PVP'ing if you can't afford to replace your clone to begin with. Drake is an expert and well placed to comment on PVP.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.01.29 23:32:00 - [19] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 29/01/2010 23:37:33 Edited by: Drake Draconis on 29/01/2010 23:33:51 Edited by: Drake Draconis on 29/01/2010 23:32:56 The way I see it... someone who has played that long will not have an issue when it comes to making ISK... and will be smart enough to gauge the risks and not be so gutsy. With time comes experience... and experience is the thing that allows you to succeed with practice. So yes... I tend to agree its a bit of a sour taste but then I don't take risks to the point of ended up upside down financially either. --------- Quote: Drake is an expert and well placed to comment on PVP. Do I look like I give a #### what you think when it comes to killboards? Yay... you saw I've been podded what... twice in my entire time I've played this game? Gee... lost some ships over the lifespan of playing EVE... gee golly wizz. What does that mean? Means I'm cautious... careful... obviously I'm industry. Killed a few as well. Good for you.... gold star for you.... now go away and let the grown ups talk. Oh yes... battle-clicic is the holy grail and authority on anyone's PVP skill yay! ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Xialis NQX Innovations HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.01.30 03:28:00 - [20] I, Xialis, being for the same corp and alliance as the OP, support this proposal. We all want more PVP, but if high clone costs are keeping people from saying 'what the heck I'll go join that fleet' for fear of losing a 30mil+ clone because they don't see 30mil of benefit from the fight. Effectively lowering the number of people pvping in a pvp game. High sp chars in low ability ships don't have much advantage over low sp chars in the same ships, so why should they be force to grind up much more isk to fight in those same ships? This grind also keeps people from fighting as they are too busy grinding up some isk. Yes, you can make heaps of money in 0.0 but you have to actually be doing that, making money, not PVPing.
Matting NQX Innovations HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.01.30 05:40:00 - [21] Thanks for the support and mostly friendly discussion. I think Destination SkillQueue and Xialis explained the cost/performance better than I did. Why be wasting more time making money for your clone when the benefits are so low. Also I understand my proposed graph wasn't friendly to younger players and I wasn't happy with it. I have now revised my numbers a bit and made a beter looking graph that makes the higher end higher and cheaper for the younger players. My costs are based around that the first clone is at 1M skill points and should be fairly cheap. New proposed costs http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1001/proposedclonecostv2.png The costs I've mentioned are just ones I'm using to demonstrate. My proposal is really about changing the cost to benefit ratio at high SP.
PrimaryIS NQX Innovations HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.01.30 06:24:00 - [22] Strongly supported. Players are already risking implants and their ship, it doesn't make much sense for older players to be penalized just because they have more SP.
vvendel	Posted - 2010.01.30 07:08:00 - [23] Originally by: PrimaryIS Strongly supported. Players are already risking implants and their ship, it doesn't make much sense for older players to be penalized just because they have more SP. Isn't that the idea? If you are flying a class of ship way lower than your SP would normally dictate or you are highly diversified across a wide spread of things then you should indeed have a steep financial drawback for flying around in smaller things meant for lower SP players. Yeah you can make that choice just like everyone else... except if you do make that choice you are taking up a slot a younger player could be using so why not pay a cost for that right. Elsewise go start an alt or let someone with less SP in your roam spot. This game does not need anything added to help out older higher SP characters financially. They already run the show. Let new guys gain some footholds here or you will end up with an indestructible glass ceiling. Re-balance the sink? If the sink is still there why even bother? It's alot of busy work to make the game cater to your personal play patterns and style more. This is not a "pleases many" idea.... so far it's mostly just a "pleases this corp/alliance idea". Knock it down.
Daco Cutter NQX Innovations	Posted - 2010.01.30 08:59:00 - [24] Edited by: Daco Cutter on 30/01/2010 09:01:46 I'm am in full support of this, granted i am a fellow corpie of the OP but if you really have a look at the proposed changes they make sence. It is no wonder when people start getting up higher in SP they ditch 0.0 because it is too easy to lose your pod, and that cost of replacing starts to hit you hard. Anyway to all you haters out there, stop and look at it from a 50mil+ SP pvp characters POV. -------------
Maxsim Goratiev Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate	Posted - 2010.01.30 10:37:00 - [25] Originally by: Wyke Mossari Strongly Opposed. This harms new players who have few paths to make the isk for clones and rewards well established character that have many paths to make the isk for clones. THat. Although i would support removal of exponential cost increase and replacing it with a straight line. I don't honestly see anything positive in a close costing over 30 mill. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes.StevieSG
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2010.01.30 21:52:00 - [26] Originally by: vvendel Yeah you can make that choice just like everyone else... except if you do make that choice you are taking up a slot a younger player could be using so why not pay a cost for that right. Taking up a slot? Quote: This game does not need anything added to help out older higher SP characters financially. They already run the show. This is a horribly flawed argument that a few have used and not just in this thread. The main determining in ISK making ability in EVE is time. Time to grind out the missions, time to maintain your POS network, time to run exploration sites, time to sit and mine, time to trade (with trading probably being the least time intensive of those). Unless you own a t2 BPO, in which case you can make the money with less time investment. I can guarantee there are players 1/4 my age with more money than I have or have ever spent in the game.
Maxsim Goratiev Imperial Tau Syndicate	Posted - 2010.01.30 22:24:00 - [27] if it was up to me to decide, i would remove the whole clone thing all together. maybe a small symbolical fee. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes.StevieSG
Daco Cutter NQX Innovations	Posted - 2010.01.31 01:42:00 - [28] Originally by: Franga Quote: This game does not need anything added to help out older higher SP characters financially. They already run the show. This is a horribly flawed argument that a few have used and not just in this thread. The main determining in ISK making ability in EVE is time. This tbh. Did you ever think about the fact that some players just want to jump on for an hour or 2 blow some stuff up then jump off? Not spend a couple of hours shudders grinding for isk. Just because a char is old in the game doesn't mean they have mountains of isk. My char is 2 and a half years old and I only sit on 300mil, which pvping is all i do and if you have a bad run and die lots then the loses start adding up and next thing you know you are below 100mil. -------------
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.01.31 02:23:00 - [29] Originally by: Daco Cutter Just because a char is old in the game doesn't mean they have mountains of isk. My char is 2 and a half years old and I only sit on 300mil, which pvping is all i do and if you have a bad run and die lots then the loses start adding up and next thing you know you are below 100mil. An then you might have to ... do something else for a while. The horror. That would be like...like a miner having to PvP when they just want to mine some ore. How very rude. --Vel Forum Mom: Spanking the snot out of little brats.
PrimaryIS Caldari NQX Innovations HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.01.31 02:29:00 - [30] Originally by: Franga Originally by: vvendel Yeah you can make that choice just like everyone else... except if you do make that choice you are taking up a slot a younger player could be using so why not pay a cost for that right. Taking up a slot? Taking up a slot? Originally by: vvendel Isn't that the idea? If you are flying a class of ship way lower than your SP would normally dictate or you are highly diversified across a wide spread of things then you should indeed have a steep financial drawback for flying around in smaller things meant for lower SP players. Yeah you can make that choice just like everyone else... except if you do make that choice you are taking up a slot a younger player could be using so why not pay a cost for that right. Elsewise go start an alt or let someone with less SP in your roam spot. So basically what you're saying is that older players shouldn't be running around in cheap ships?
JcH	Posted - 2010.01.31 06:12:00 - [31]
Solo Player	Posted - 2010.01.31 23:26:00 - [32] Nah. Cloning is too cheap as it is. (Don't get me started on jump clones)
Malakai Asamov NQX Innovations	Posted - 2010.02.01 00:10:00 - [33] Supported because as a "newer" player here my ability to make isk does not grow exponentially at the rate of the cost to upgrade my clone. I run lvl 4 missions a few hours a week to PvP for a few more hours a week. The amount of time i have to play EvE is the only thing that effects how much isk i could make. I can see that at some point in the future loosing a pod is going to be a major influence on what i choose to do in eve. The more SP i have doesn't effect how much money i can make.
Hellfury Resurrected Incura	Posted - 2010.02.01 00:44:00 - [34] Originally by: Drake Draconis Edited by: Drake Draconis on 29/01/2010 15:45:16 Originally by: Franga Originally by: Wyke Mossari Strongly Opposed. This harms new players who have few paths to make the isk for clones and rewards well established character that have many paths to make the isk for clones. A new player has to raise 40k for a clone, if that. That's harmful? 40K? Your throwing a fit over 40k? Dude.... I make that in 2 minutes and your throwing a fit over 40k!!?! Not supporting. Bloody hell... of all the stupid reasons. Reading comprehension fail. Supporting this idea. -------------------------------------------
Dr BattleSmith PAX Interstellar Services	Posted - 2010.02.01 01:29:00 - [35] Stupid forum timer... grr!
Gertrud ToD Terrorists of Dimensions Electric Monkey Overlords	Posted - 2010.02.01 03:17:00 - [36] hm, i didnt find a "i dont like this idea" button, that suxx a bit. anyways, i dont like this idea. when i started playing this game, the amounts that i have to pay for my clones (quite regulary) today where fantasy numbers, i could not have imagined to make a few million in a week. nowadays the clone ISK are peanuts to me. Dying should hurt, and not be softened. As a matter of fact, it should be raised a bit to reflect the changes on eve that made it quite easy to raise alot more money.
Mashie Saldana Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.01 12:32:00 - [37] Just because the OP want to fly fully insured T1 ships doesn't mean PvP should be risk free. Keep the clone cost as it is. Not supported. Say no to 24000byte sig limit.
MP Rhianna	Posted - 2010.02.01 13:10:00 - [38] Originally by: Malakai Asamov Supported because as a "newer" player here my ability to make isk does not grow exponentially at the rate of the cost to upgrade my clone. I run lvl 4 missions a few hours a week to PvP for a few more hours a week. The amount of time i have to play EvE is the only thing that effects how much isk i could make. I can see that at some point in the future loosing a pod is going to be a major influence on what i choose to do in eve. The more SP i have doesn't effect how much money i can make. Why should income grow exponentially when your clone cost doesn't go up at that rate? It goes up gradually, if your not making much more isk by the time you are at 30million sp than you were making at 10million sp than you are doing it wrong, increase the gap in SP and you are stuck in a rut isk wise. Diversify, maximize you isk per hour, there are dozens of isk generating things to do in eve, stop training so many combat skills and train something that can make you isk. The more sp you have can effect how much isk you make but only if you have the foresight to do something about it. Training every weapon and ship isn't going to help you increase the isk you make but somehow you 'need' those skills and wonder why you aren't making more isk as you sit there looking on hangars full of ships fitted with tech2 and faction modules right?
irion felpamy Minmatar HellJumpers Corp Tread Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.01 13:25:00 - [39] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Just because the OP want to fly fully insured T1 ships doesn't mean PvP should be risk free. Keep the clone cost as it is. Not supported. Going with this, make an attempt to not get podded, this is not counterstrike in space.
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.02.01 15:59:00 - [40] Edited by: Bagehi on 01/02/2010 16:00:54 The clone cost really should eventually level out. A player with roughly 50m SP can have all subcap ships and supporting skills maxed for a race. Just as you eventually max out skills, hourly income from game mechanics (ratting/mining/etc) eventually max out as well. So should the cost of clones. They shouldn't continue climbing for the sky. Sure, you say, don't die, you say. The end game is 0.0. Enormous "battles" occur in 0.0 sec - and almost everyone is involved in one of these battles on a somewhat regular basis. 0.0 sec (in case you haven't seen it recently) has some fleet lag issues. If the grid goes silly (happens regularly - you hear about it at least once a day), and you are unlucky enough to not load the grid for an hour and eventually get primaried, you are dead. Invariably, some don't following commands from the fc to the letter and pop pods (assuming you actually load the grid eventually). So, you can come into a fight with pure uberness - ship, skills, implants - and without even seeing the field of battle, you wake up in a station. This effects players regardless of SP. Cap the clone costs. Fix Local
Zeus Cuzzy	Posted - 2010.02.02 04:47:00 - [41] Originally by: MP Rhianna Originally by: Malakai Asamov Supported because as a "newer" player here my ability to make isk does not grow exponentially at the rate of the cost to upgrade my clone. I run lvl 4 missions a few hours a week to PvP for a few more hours a week. The amount of time i have to play EvE is the only thing that effects how much isk i could make. I can see that at some point in the future loosing a pod is going to be a major influence on what i choose to do in eve. The more SP i have doesn't effect how much money i can make. Why should income grow exponentially when your clone cost doesn't go up at that rate? It goes up gradually, if your not making much more isk by the time you are at 30million sp than you were making at 10million sp than you are doing it wrong, increase the gap in SP and you are stuck in a rut isk wise. Diversify, maximize you isk per hour, there are dozens of isk generating things to do in eve, stop training so many combat skills and train something that can make you isk. The more sp you have can effect how much isk you make but only if you have the foresight to do something about it. Training every weapon and ship isn't going to help you increase the isk you make but somehow you 'need' those skills and wonder why you aren't making more isk as you sit there looking on hangars full of ships fitted with tech2 and faction modules right? The point being made i think MP Rhianna had nothing to do with income increasing to match the cost growth of replacing a clone. The issue being raised as i see it is, at some point for some players clone costs become an issue. In 0.0 it is very easy to loose a clone. The pros to this proposal is it opens up another type of game play to a certain type of player and has no negative effect i can think off on any play style in EVE. And is a relatively minor change to a few database keys i imagine. I think the OP is doing it right.
Seth Ruin Minmatar Ominous Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2010.02.02 05:12:00 - [42] Not supported. Maybe you young'ns are whining about a few million isk for your clone cost, but the point is to discourage you from making risky decisions with your pod. God, seems like people these days just want risk-free PvP on Tranquility. If you have 120mil SP and can't make 30mil isk in a reasonable length of time, there is some serious fail going on with your playstyle.
TimMc Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings	Posted - 2010.02.02 10:54:00 - [43] Edited by: TimMc on 02/02/2010 10:54:09 Clone cost should eventually level out. I have 50mil SP, so I try to not get podded but on occasion it does happen. At the moment it doesn't bother me since implants are costing me more. I think if I ever got to 100mil SP it would be strongly discourage me from taking risk. I'd rather have more fights. Originally by: Franga Drake is an expert and well placed to comment on PVP. Hes in loony toons, what would you expect.
Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp.	Posted - 2010.02.02 11:10:00 - [44] Not supported, for pretty much the same reason Seth outlined above. Another alternative if high-SP players are sufficiently bothered by this: they can sell their char and buy a younger cheaper one, and the isk difference would then keep their clones up-to-date for a good long time. /Ben
Harris Dorn	Posted - 2010.02.04 04:05:00 - [45] Originally by: TimMc Edited by: TimMc on 02/02/2010 10:54:09 Clone cost should eventually level out. I have 50mil SP, so I try to not get podded but on occasion it does happen. At the moment it doesn't bother me since implants are costing me more. I think if I ever got to 100mil SP it would be strongly discourage me from taking risk. I'd rather have more fights. Originally by: Franga Drake is an expert and well placed to comment on PVP. Hes in loony toons, what would you expect. NOT SUPPORTED. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. It isn't that hard to figure out Rule #1 of Eve. If you can't afford to replace those implants, don't use them, if you can't afford to replace your clone x times over don't go back into the fight.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.02.04 04:12:00 - [46] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 04/02/2010 04:14:01 Originally by: Harris Dorn Originally by: TimMc Edited by: TimMc on 02/02/2010 10:54:09 Clone cost should eventually level out. I have 50mil SP, so I try to not get podded but on occasion it does happen. At the moment it doesn't bother me since implants are costing me more. I think if I ever got to 100mil SP it would be strongly discourage me from taking risk. I'd rather have more fights. Originally by: Franga Drake is an expert and well placed to comment on PVP. Hes in loony toons, what would you expect. NOT SUPPORTED. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. It isn't that hard to figure out Rule #1 of Eve. If you can't afford to replace those implants, don't use them, if you can't afford to replace your clone x times over don't go back into the fight. HYDRA WILL PROVAIL BUT GO BANKRUPT IF CLONE COSTS AREN'T LOWERED. :) ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Gladys Pank Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.02.08 09:20:00 - [47] I don't use my main very much for this reason. I don't like being penalised for solo pvping in 0.0 outnumbered vs bubbled camps. ~ Soar Like a Penguin
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.02.08 15:54:00 - [48] At least make the increase linear. Asymptotic curve is stupid.
TimMc Gallente Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings	Posted - 2010.02.08 16:36:00 - [49] Originally by: Matting http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1001/proposedclonecostv2.png I like this chart. There is a maximum income in eve. For most people, you earn the same amount of isk no matter if you are 10mil SP or 100mil. You might do that mission 10% faster, but its not 10 times faster which the current clone system wants you to grind for. No suicide roams for old players it seems.
Agent Unknown Caldari	Posted - 2010.02.08 21:18:00 - [50] Originally by: Seth Ruin Not supported. Maybe you young'ns are whining about a few million isk for your clone cost, but the point is to discourage you from making risky decisions with your pod. God, seems like people these days just want risk-free PvP on Tranquility. If you have 120mil SP and can't make 30mil isk in a reasonable length of time, there is some serious fail going on with your playstyle. This. If you really think about it, 30mil is peanuts compared to what you could make on any given day. If you really want to roam in T1 frigs, factor in the cost of a potential new clone and plan accordingly. Also, I now have one of those annoying sigs. Originally by: CCP Fallout And yelling is bad. It makes the baby Jesus cry and when the baby Jesus cries I'm forced to lock threads
Jeron kahyar Incura	Posted - 2010.02.12 07:47:00 - [51] Originally by: Hellfury Resurrected Supporting this idea.
irion felpamy Minmatar HellJumpers Corp Tread Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.12 13:09:00 - [52] Originally by: TimMc There is a maximum income in eve. Pray tell what is this maximum income? I assume you intend to imply it is low enough that the cost a 30mil clone would be problematic for a player who achieved this limit?
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.02.12 18:20:00 - [53] Edited by: Bagehi on 12/02/2010 18:21:06 Originally by: irion felpamy Originally by: TimMc There is a maximum income in eve. Pray tell what is this maximum income? I assume you intend to imply it is low enough that the cost a 30mil clone would be problematic for a player who achieved this limit? It is affordable. The issue is players with about 30m SP have access to the exact same isk making mechanics as 120m SP characters. They have the ability to make the same isk per hour as a player with 120m SP but there is a dramatic difference in the cost of the clones for the two. At about 50m SP, a player can have the same capabilities as a 150m SP player with their choice of racial ships. The only difference is how many other races of ships the higher level player can also fly with perfect skills. The dramatic differences in capabilities and income happen early on (up to about 40-50m SP). The dramatic change in clone cost should follow that same trend. I should be paying the same for my clone as someone with 150m SP. Whatever the clone price, the difference after about 50m SP is how many shiny things are in the hangar. Fix Local
CyberGh0st Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2010.02.13 15:13:00 - [54] Definatly not supported, this is one of the few advantages a new player has over the vets. If you don't like it, roll an alt and pvp with that. http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE / EVE Online ( Pre-Dust514 ? )
super hornet Caldari Boob Heads Vivisection.	Posted - 2010.02.13 18:23:00 - [55] Yeah as a high SP char myself i would actually oppose this on the following points. To be podded you have to be in 0.0 (dictor/bubble) if you are podded in empire you deserve to pay iskies :P the Amount of iSK a player can generate now a days has greatly improved in dominion. Remember the days when it took 3 guys to kill a Officer spawn :P and i think the SP/Isk clone cost is Pretty Good. sorry that was a warning shot didnt mean to pop you
Maxsim Goratiev Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate	Posted - 2010.02.13 18:42:00 - [56] Quote: If you can't afford to replace those implants, don't use them, if you can't afford to replace your clone x times over don't go back into the fight. don't fly what you can't loose does not work with clones unfortunatly Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes.StevieSG
Gavin Darklighter THE FINAL STAND Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.13 18:45:00 - [57] If you want to fly a cheap ship you are going to lose and don't want to replace your clone, roam lowsec instead. signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan
Typhado3	Posted - 2010.03.17 14:19:00 - [58] Edited by: Typhado3 on 17/03/2010 14:24:29 Strongly support The point of training all those skills is to give yourself more options. And yet a brand new player has the option of cheap easily replaceable losses (that's a pretty damn good option) yet players like me who have to pay 20-30 mil that's a long ago dream. A thing I love about eve is being able to do everything on one character not having to create a second character to train up a 2nd class. alts in eve are for teamwork or doing 2 specialisations at once not cause your main character is limited. The only way for me to viably fly a large selection of ships is to train up a alt to do it, for some ships their advantage is cheap cost which is directly countered by my clone. ------------------------------ God is an afk cloaker
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.17 14:34:00 - [59] Only at 72M SP but the bare clone (ie. no implants) cost already equates to two fully fitted and insured BCs or a T2 frigate. Anything to make dying less painful gets my vote. Addendum: Alternative is to have just few SP tiers and then add costs dependent on intended use (a clone with ability to contain full +4 sets being more expensive than a +2 capable one - higher grade clones = more expensive).
adriaans Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak	Posted - 2010.03.18 23:17:00 - [60] Edited by: adriaans on 18/03/2010 23:17:00 Strongly supported! Because paying 30 million isk per clone without counting implants is ridiculous. gah... forgot to support ^^

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