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Herpes Sweatrash	Posted - 2010.02.03 14:52:00 - [31] Personally I agree...if there was no gate guns it wouldn't matter but with any ship you could use to quickly decloak popping very quick under gate gun fire it is not fair to pirate.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.02.03 16:09:00 - [32] Originally by: Marchocias Pretty easy to fix... Just make it so that non covert ops cloaks cannot be activated if other modules are activated. Seems pretty obvious. I was thinking the same thing.
H4rbringer	Posted - 2010.02.03 16:32:00 - [33] Originally by: Callista Sincera Originally by: Agetec Core it's already bad enough that us pirates living in low-sec have everything working against us. Pirate whine is really the best. 2010 promises to become a good year. seth for president.
Illrean	Posted - 2010.02.03 16:45:00 - [34] If you really think this is an exploit.. file a petition on everyone who gets away from you using this process. If the GMs agree with you, the player will catch the flak, if they disagree with you they will tell you so and you will have your answer. If you still disagree with them you can ask to have your petition elevated to a more senior GM.
Straight Hustlin Gallente The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.02.03 17:40:00 - [35] This is about as sad as the people *****ing about Ninja salvaging.
Agetec Core	Posted - 2010.02.03 18:41:00 - [36] Quote: Originally by: Illrean If you really think this is an exploit.. file a petition on everyone who gets away from you using this process. If the GMs agree with you, the player will catch the flak, if they disagree with you they will tell you so and you will have your answer. If you still disagree with them you can ask to have your petition elevated to a more senior GM. I have petitoned several times and each time I am told to express my concerns here. I believe that all pilots whom agree with this exploit are obviously carebears who use the exploit to evade camps. Pilots are constantly finding ways to use the game's mechanics wronfully therefore leading to nerfs. I will state again that if the ship is not meant to warp off cloaked then it shouldn't. Anyone supporting the exploit is also supporting a broken game, really? I play this game to pirate because that is the aspect of the game which interests me so should I be condemned for it? Low sec is a place where pirates reside and conduct their business daily and risks of entering low-sec space are clear. Low-sec is our house and if you can't afford to lose then stay out. Carebears have the cloaking industrials which I totally agree with because you need some kind of safe way to transport, fair enough. We also have an alt corp which handles all of our finances and hauling etc etc and on several different occasions we have been high sec ganked leading to losses in the billions, oh well we just deal with the loss and move on; We don't complain about it or cry because concord wasn't there to save us. Anyway back to the point, the pilots in my corp all have a specific role to counter escape tactics and we are quite successful with this however there is no counter for the sissy claok and warp trick. We don't use exploits or tricks, we use the tools provided by the game to acheive our goals, it's that simple. If you can't handle low sec then stay out.
Agetec Core	Posted - 2010.02.03 18:55:00 - [37] Originally by: T'Challa Wanakanda Originally by: Agetec Core I am sick and tired of pilots using cloaks to escape succsessfully in non covert-op ships. It's a trick more and more people are using to escape and it's already bad enough that us pirates living in low-sec have everything working against us. This needs to be fixed ASAP!!! Everytime I turn around there is something else in this game that just totally disgusts me!! You call yourself a pirate. You're complaining that opponents have found a strategy that allows them to escape from you. Do you believe that low sec has become too safe? That in order to insure that piracy provides risk to people just traveling through low sec in a non-covops ship that you need help from CCP? And if everyone adapts and starts using co-vops ships then will you complain about them too? If the mechanic was broken I'd say fix it. I don't think it's broken. T'Challa, you are wrong my friend and obviously have no clue! It is not a strategy, it is an exploit. Strategy would include logistics support and scouts, not exploits. Please put on your glasses and try to find a clue. Low-sec more dangerous than 0.0? You have no idea what you are talking about so please stop with the jokes. It takes a a very competent roster of corp members to pirate successgully in low sec simply because there are so many ways for escape. Have you considered dropping ammo cans about 13-14km from the gate or maybe anchoring some containers? Using fast ships to chase down the ship and decloak it (An interceptor can cover a lot of space in the time it takes a ship to align with a MWD running)? If you really believe low sec has become too safe then you'll have a difficult argument. Most people I know feel low sec is in many ways more dangerous than 0.0. Bottom line: HTFU
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.02.03 18:57:00 - [38] Originally by: steave435 Quote: I like this tactic, it enables me to use a slow battleship in solo fights. Without it, I'd be forced to blob or stay out of 0.0 altogether. So, from purely selfish point of view of someone who wants to enjoy PvP - I am against modifying this tactic. Or, to just use a fast ship. Try any kind of fast cruiser, due to the gateguns there will not be many ships that can keep up with any fit, especially not with the armour tank that most camps use. BS are not supposed to be able to travel around solo and be able to evade any camp without issues. Here you openly try to limit the way people can play the game. From pure game design point of view it's a bad decision, and certainly cannot be used as justification for nerfing gameplay tactics. In the past, when CCP nerfed something, they usually tried to make a case that the nerf was necessary to expand variety of viable tactics - even when they were wrong in their reasoning. You have better chance of influencing them by building your case around that idea. Frankly, it always makes me laugh when someone says "but it's not supposed to be used that way!" Originally by: steave435 Quote: Having admitted that I use it all the time, I'd still like to point out that I die pretty often. Many would even claim I suck at pvp. The fact that I die often even tho I use this tactic all the time proves it is not overpowered - it doesn't give people immunity. If this trick is executed properly, it does provide immunity. If you die when using it, it is indeed because you suck. To expand on that argument - a smart player using that tactic would be nearly immune (lets not discredit ourselves with ideas of total invulnerability), while a less smart player such as myself would still die often even when using that tactic. From this it follows that the use of this tactic does not grant the user serious advantage in PvP, it only goes to show that the main influencing factor is whether the player is smart/skilled or not. And is it not the main idea of EVE to allow smart/skilled player to have advantage? Sounds like the game is working as intended.
Illrean	Posted - 2010.02.03 18:59:00 - [39] Originally by: Agetec Core I have petitoned several times and each time I am told to express my concerns here. I believe that all pilots whom agree with this exploit are obviously carebears who use the exploit to evade camps. Pilots are constantly finding ways to use the game's mechanics wronfully therefore leading to nerfs. I will state again that if the ship is not meant to warp off cloaked then it shouldn't. Anyone supporting the exploit is also supporting a broken game, really? I play this game to pirate because that is the aspect of the game which interests me so should I be condemned for it? Low sec is a place where pirates reside and conduct their business daily and risks of entering low-sec space are clear. Low-sec is our house and if you can't afford to lose then stay out. Carebears have the cloaking industrials which I totally agree with because you need some kind of safe way to transport, fair enough. We also have an alt corp which handles all of our finances and hauling etc etc and on several different occasions we have been high sec ganked leading to losses in the billions, oh well we just deal with the loss and move on; We don't complain about it or cry because concord wasn't there to save us. Anyway back to the point, the pilots in my corp all have a specific role to counter escape tactics and we are quite successful with this however there is no counter for the sissy claok and warp trick. We don't use exploits or tricks, we use the tools provided by the game to acheive our goals, it's that simple. If you can't handle low sec then stay out. If you have petitioned it several times and the GMs have done nothing but suggest you come here.. then maybe.. just maybe CCP does not see it your way.
Agetec Core	Posted - 2010.02.03 19:12:00 - [40] Originally by: T'Challa Wanakanda Originally by: Agetec Core I am sick and tired of pilots using cloaks to escape succsessfully in non covert-op ships. It's a trick more and more people are using to escape and it's already bad enough that us pirates living in low-sec have everything working against us. This needs to be fixed ASAP!!! Everytime I turn around there is something else in this game that just totally disgusts me!! You call yourself a pirate. You're complaining that opponents have found a strategy that allows them to escape from you. Do you believe that low sec has become too safe? That in order to insure that piracy provides risk to people just traveling through low sec in a non-covops ship that you need help from CCP? And if everyone adapts and starts using co-vops ships then will you complain about them too? If the mechanic was broken I'd say fix it. I don't think it's broken. Have you considered dropping ammo cans about 13-14km from the gate or maybe anchoring some containers? Using fast ships to chase down the ship and decloak it (An interceptor can cover a lot of space in the time it takes a ship to align with a MWD running)? If you really believe low sec has become too safe then you'll have a difficult argument. Most people I know feel low sec is in many ways more dangerous than 0.0. Bottom line: HTFU T'Challa, you are wrong my friend and obviously have no clue! It is not a strategy, it is an exploit. Strategy would include logistics support and scouts, not exploits. Please put on your glasses and try to find a clue. Low-sec more dangerous than 0.0? You have no idea what you are talking about so please stop with the jokes. It takes a a very competent roster of corp members to pirate successgully in low sec simply because there are so many ways for escape.
Agetec Core Treadstone LLC	Posted - 2010.02.03 19:22:00 - [41] Originally by: Illrean Originally by: Agetec Core I have petitoned several times and each time I am told to express my concerns here. I believe that all pilots whom agree with this exploit are obviously carebears who use the exploit to evade camps. Pilots are constantly finding ways to use the game's mechanics wronfully therefore leading to nerfs. I will state again that if the ship is not meant to warp off cloaked then it shouldn't. Anyone supporting the exploit is also supporting a broken game, really? I play this game to pirate because that is the aspect of the game which interests me so should I be condemned for it? Low sec is a place where pirates reside and conduct their business daily and risks of entering low-sec space are clear. Low-sec is our house and if you can't afford to lose then stay out. Carebears have the cloaking industrials which I totally agree with because you need some kind of safe way to transport, fair enough. We also have an alt corp which handles all of our finances and hauling etc etc and on several different occasions we have been high sec ganked leading to losses in the billions, oh well we just deal with the loss and move on; We don't complain about it or cry because concord wasn't there to save us. Anyway back to the point, the pilots in my corp all have a specific role to counter escape tactics and we are quite successful with this however there is no counter for the sissy claok and warp trick. We don't use exploits or tricks, we use the tools provided by the game to acheive our goals, it's that simple. If you can't handle low sec then stay out. If you have petitioned it several times and the GMs have done nothing but suggest you come here.. then maybe.. just maybe CCP does not see it your way. I'm sorry but it seems you are unaware of how the process works. It is wrong to speak of subjects you nothing about.
Illrean	Posted - 2010.02.03 19:29:00 - [42] Originally by: Agetec Core I'm sorry but it seems you are unaware of how the process works. It is wrong to speak of subjects you nothing about. I am well aware of the process. If you think something is an exploit then file a petition on it, don't come whining to the forums. There is nothing we as a player can do to help you. Never thought I would be saying this.. but HTFU.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.03 23:47:00 - [43] Wow - this is bad. The tactic discussed does not in any way, shape or form, make anyone 'invulnerable'. It is difficult to execute. It doesn't always work. And it comes down to a contest of skill between the campers and the cloaker ship. Interceptors and the like can beat this tactic - but pirates don't like to use them because of the gate guns. Of course, they COULD do it - there's a way (and I'm not telling, figure it out on your own) but they won't. I expect due to the nature of pirates. Honestly - why are we even having this discussion? There's no skill in camping a gate with a dozen buddies. Anything without a cloak that comes through solo or in small numbers is just dead. Period. You know it, so does everyone else. That's why no one flies through Rancer unless they're doing it in a CovOps ship. Even cloakers are very unlikely to make it. Why not just petition for every ship that operates the gate to die so you can loot it? That's more or less what you're asking for here. Seriously - this is a challenge to you. It is a challenge that CAN be solved. I've lost ships to GOOD pilots using cloaks through camps. And I've managed to fly through 12 ship camps that had bubbles in an Itty 3 - and with bubbles the whole AB thing doesn't help. It took me an hour and a half of sneaking but I did it. Challenges are good. "I Win" buttons are both bad and boring. There are few enough challenges for your camp. You should be learning from this and seeing it as an opportunity to improve, not griping because someone actually found a way to get around your "I Win" button. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Komi Toran	Posted - 2010.02.04 00:27:00 - [44] Number 1: Where is the source that this is an exploit? Do you have a link to someone in CCP stating as such that I can read? Number 2: I was under the impression that MWD/AB had their cycles canceled the instant a non-Cov Ops cloaking device was active. I thought this happened some time around Apocrypha. Was this rolled back? (The only cloaks I use are cov-ops, so I wouldn't know)
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2010.02.04 01:18:00 - [45] Not an exploit. Nothing to "fix" because it's not broken. Anyone using this tactic has gimped a combat ship by fitting a cloak, which means if they do screw up and get caught they are probably toast. Low sec isn't the only game in town, and when dealing with bubbles in 0.0 tricks like this are necessary to give even the smallest chance for people to get through a camped gate. "Fixing" this would be a huge boost to bubble camps.
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.02.04 01:41:00 - [46] as the last poster said, nerfing this tactic would simply shift game balance more in favor of blobs, and act as another nail in the coffin of solo PvP. Given CCP's track record of going along with changes that do just that, I wouldn't be surprised if they did this one in aswell.
Lenasha	Posted - 2010.02.04 03:57:00 - [47] Ah pirate tears are so delicious. Call me a carebear I don't care, all I see is you crying your eyes out because you aren't getting those "easy" kills that you feel you deserve because you are a low sec pirate.
Hellfury Resurrected Incura Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.04 04:06:00 - [48] Lookit this angry idiot. Have you tried actually fighting stuff instead of camping a gate waiting for mission runners/haulers all day? -------------------------------------------
Tom Peeping	Posted - 2010.02.04 06:07:00 - [49] LOL.... this thread is pretty funny with some of the advice given. You people realize there's an exploit possible right? If the issue was simply that they could cloak, align, then uncloak, and take the time to get up to warp speed, then that would be the mechanism working right. That's NOT what's happening now. You people who are talking about "targeting" the enemy are obviously unaware that it's completely impossible to target someone who successfully uses the exploit. If the mechanism worked the way it should with cloaks, that would be fine.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2010.02.04 09:51:00 - [50] Originally by: Zolarin Obviously this guy is a carebear and is looking to use this glitch lol. Its done by aligning click burner on and cloak quickly and when at top speed in cloak with burner velocity they uncloak and are able to insta warp to desired gate. thus making it impossible to grab some1. during this whole process pirates or any1 cant lock if done right. because of the delay you get when you come outa cloak. wcs have counter meaning HICS, or more points this does not as it wont even allow you to lock and there is no way you can turn and micro to desired target in time unless he jumps in less then 4k from you. Therefore being an exploit , when you turn the micro on and cloak the speed should automatically cut of to top speed with cloak on NOT allow the burnur to burn until it cycles allowing it to go much faster in cloak. Theres your lesson carebear but as i said its for a pirate and not carebears so experience it before you run your mouth like you know anything )) now you stabbed your foot. You say it has no counters while WCS have a counter on hiC. Well HICS have no counters.... except on this tactic. Why should one side have counter and the other none? Think on that! Not sayign this is the best game mechanics, but people need to stop being so selfshly biased when pretending to want game balance.
Torothanax	Posted - 2010.02.04 11:15:00 - [51] Edited by: Torothanax on 04/02/2010 11:25:41 Originally by: Agetec Core Please dont make laugh! Do you double check what you write before you submit it? "No one makes you pirate in low sec." Not to bright my friend. And I believe you are in fact a carebear just from that comment. Also, we can handle it fine and you can check our killboard if you have doubts. I'm simply trying to state that there is a problem with the mechanics and I would like to see something done about it. I can also tell you've probably been ganked a few times and there is some soarness about it and this thread maybe your way of retalliation. Sorry for you really but the fact remains, the exploit must be fixed. Is "you're just a carebear" your only responce to all counter posts? You are the one going on and on about how hard life is for low sec pirates. No, it's not. Been there, done that. It's not carebearing, but sitting on a gate all day ganking haulers isn't exactly dangerous. It's hardly even pvp. Ya gonna complain about blockade runners too? BTW who doesn't use a scout alt? You'd be stupid to jump gates blindly, especially solo. Get a hauler alt and your supply problems are solved. Boo hooo hoo about the gate guns. If you can't tank them, don't fire first. Every pvper that's willing to lose sec status has to deal with guns. And for the record I've never used a cloak on any hauler but a blockade runner, and I haven't been ganked at a gate since '06. It's not as big a deal as you make it out to be. Think about it, if you could gank everying that came through a gate you camped 100% of the time, you'd have very few targets in short order. You only see full combat squads that are able to take out gate camps.
el Sabor	Posted - 2010.02.04 11:40:00 - [52] A couple of important points: Firstly it is definitely not an exploit. If anyone remembers a couple of patches back ECM was changed so ECM modules would not continue to cycle after a pilot had cloaked. This nerfed the mwd/cloak/warp trick in exactly the way you are currently requesting. It was switly fixed by CCP. Secondly it's not hard to counter. A cloaked BS still aligns like BS and goes almost nowhere while doing so. Easily countered by a pilot with a mwd fitted that's paying attention. This is assuming it's the hit align, mwd and cloak trick I'm thinking of.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2010.02.04 14:07:00 - [53] Originally by: el Sabor If anyone remembers a couple of patches back ECM was changed so ECM modules would not continue to cycle after a pilot had cloaked. This nerfed the mwd/cloak/warp trick in exactly the way you are currently requesting. It was switly fixed by CCP. This is exactly correct. The "fix" being requested by the was accidentally implemented and then CCP did a great job correcting the mistake in a timely manner and putting this function back in as working-as-intended. Since they went out of their way to put this functionality back in after accidentally removing it, I'm pretty sure that invalidates all claims that this is an exploit.
Mograph Caldari Starscream Industries IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.04 16:39:00 - [54] its annoying this - but my idea is cloaking devices should create a larger sig radius when fitted to a ship to make targeting a cloaker once uncloaked quicker. remove the scan res reduction to balance this a bit. means frigs can lock a cloaker quicker when they uncloak. Cov ops ships should not be affected by this penalty. at the moment its close to impossible to catch a cloaking ship that uses the align + mwd + cloak = win trick it should be easy to catch a cloaking ship, but it should be a little easier IMHO. and if you are reading this you have reached the signature without noticing.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.02.04 17:03:00 - [55] or maybe we just leave it as is ... if your ceptor wasnt able to lock the battleship before recloack the increased sig radius will help you 0.
Nobani Merch Industrial GOONS IN SPACE	Posted - 2010.02.04 19:22:00 - [56] Well, I'm sick and tired of pilots using warp disruptors with non interceptor ships. It's a trick more and more using to gank and it's already bad enough that us carebears living in low-sec have everything working against us. This needs to be fixed ASAP!!! Everytime I turn around there is something else in this game that just totally disgusts me!!
Misanthra	Posted - 2010.02.05 04:00:00 - [57] Originally by: Tom Peeping You people who are talking about "targeting" the enemy are obviously unaware that it's completely impossible to target someone who successfully uses the exploit. So come off gate and bump them. Real easy to target them then. Damn CCP, making people get off their gates to force a decloak. Only thing this exploits is player laziness. Granted playing pin the tail on the donkey eve style isn't fun...but this trick do work. Has gotten me on km's as both the victim and a damage dealer.
mchief117	Posted - 2010.02.05 04:27:00 - [58] Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Originally by: el Sabor If anyone remembers a couple of patches back ECM was changed so ECM modules would not continue to cycle after a pilot had cloaked. This nerfed the mwd/cloak/warp trick in exactly the way you are currently requesting. It was switly fixed by CCP. This is exactly correct. The "fix" being requested by the was accidentally implemented and then CCP did a great job correcting the mistake in a timely manner and putting this function back in as working-as-intended. Since they went out of their way to put this functionality back in after accidentally removing it, I'm pretty sure that invalidates all claims that this is an exploit. agreed. I personal love listening to pirates whine about they prey actually being able to fight back . i mean the main term of a pirate is none consensual pvp , or I want to shot you , so i do , and i don't care that you cant do anything about it. Don't go thinking that I'm a care bear , i live in null sec and are area of space is constantly getting uninvited . and seriously did you ever think of using an auto targeter , for the price of a small amount of tank or dps you can equip this handy module that will target any vessel that shows up on screen thats in range. other than that keep whining , it makes me feel good that pirates are getting annoyed because there prey can actually fight back and Deny there precious kill mails.
Aqriue	Posted - 2010.02.05 04:56:00 - [59] There is an easier solution to the MWD/cloak trick. You really want to know? Wait for it... Wait for it... Ready? Don't gate camp. Problem solved. Gate camping and station hugging are the result of you and your foe hanging out waiting in one spot (there are 50k active subs, surely you can find someone else to attack?). Stop sitting on the bench, if they dock up find someone else to fight or escape from you try chasing them. CCP has lousy mechanics that prevent deep space combat that doesn't require you to make a book mark mid warp (you fly back )and your foe to use combat probes to find you. Why I find the static dynamics[/i ]of EVE PVP kind of boring; camping gates/stations, buffer tank blob fleets (Tankmage/Napolonic firing line Online?), and this thing called [i]"capacitor" that has 4 weeks worth of training time that isn't used for anything outside of PVE to be stable (this is excluding a burst of MWD and the cap cost of lasers/hybrids in pvp, what else is the time spent training in cap skills good for but PVE ? ) EVE PVP needs something to make it more exciting then a stupid kill mail you want to horde; which isn't different then a carebear protecting their "inturnetz pixels"
steave435 Caldari Final Agony	Posted - 2010.02.05 18:35:00 - [60] Quote: now you stabbed your foot. You say it has no counters while WCS have a counter on hiC. Well HICS have no counters.... except on this tactic. Wrong, hics have many counters: 1. Blow it up 2. Jam it 3. Neut it 4. Damp it 5. Get out of range Quote: Secondly it's not hard to counter. A cloaked BS still aligns like BS and goes almost nowhere while doing so. Easily countered by a pilot with a mwd fitted that's paying attention. No, it aligns in a single MWD cycle, and as described above, that is not enough. Quote: This is exactly correct. The "fix" being requested by the was accidentally implemented and then CCP did a great job correcting the mistake in a timely manner and putting this function back in as working-as-intended. Since they went out of their way to put this functionality back in after accidentally removing it, I'm pretty sure that invalidates all claims that this is an exploit. It got fixed because it happened with cov ops cloak aswell, making them useless for escaping bubble camps in 0.0. Quote: Well, I'm sick and tired of pilots using warp disruptors with non interceptor ships. It's a trick more and more using to gank and it's already bad enough that us carebears living in low-sec have everything working against us. This needs to be fixed ASAP!!! Everytime I turn around there is something else in this game that just totally disgusts me!! Except warp disruptors are designed to be used on pretty much every PVP ship, while cloaks are not designed to give immunity to everything. Quote: So come off gate and bump them. Real easy to target them then. Damn CCP, making people get off their gates to force a decloak. As described above, there's not enough time, even with an inty. Quote: I personal love listening to pirates whine about they prey actually being able to fight back You're welcome to fight back, or to try to escape, whatever you want. However, when executed properly, this provides immunity, and that should not be happening. Increasing the time you need to spend cloaked to give more to decloak would be good enough, but atm, it's nothing but an exploit/way OP mechanic, whatever you want to call it. Quote: and seriously did you ever think of using an auto targeter , for the price of a small amount of tank or dps you can equip this handy module that will target any vessel that shows up on screen thats in range. LOL, are you serious? If something can't be locked the normal way, it can't be locked with that either, even if it wasn't a totally fail mod that will lock all the wrong and none of the right targets anyway. Quote: Don't gate camp. Problem solved. This isn't just for camping. Same thing happens when roaming around and stumbling on a target on a gate.

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