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Altaica Amur
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.02.10 19:27:00 -
[61]
I just read the op and still agree with Laconis.
Your initial post does include a 'balanced' shield and armor tanking setup which you could make a decent argument for being appropriately minmatar however your obvious preference towards the armor tanking one and your continual support for that perspective dosen't really serve the balance the game all that better or maintain the flavor of Minmatar. Morso repeatedly asking for the 6/5/7 layout over the more appropriate 6/6/6 one has reinforced what became obvious from the eft fit, you really just want to armor tank it.
Now I'll agree that it would probably improve the Hel quite a bit to do so but this merely underscores the fact that shields are that much more difficult to get into high ehp numbers. According to your own numbers the Nyx has as high ehp as the resist bonused Wyvern, now in attempting to replicate your numbers wasn't easy, and I'm curious what exactly you did to achieve such high overall ehp as it's not just in the fit. In spite of how high they were on most ships I found that the one ship I could easily outdo his ehp on was the Hel itself, by shield tanking it. This brought it to about 5 mil ehp more then the Nyx setup, based on his own but with no bonuses or whatever else he did to it. It's even within 2 mil ehp of the resist bonused Aeon, the only one is falls signifigantly behind is the Wyvern.
Clearly something about the OPs analysis is either flawed or undisclosed to be achieving such different results with the same ship setup and I'd argue that whatever mechanic the op is using to reverse the trend towards higher ehp lying on the shields side of things may be the culprit over any specific issues with the Hel or even shield tanking.
EHP
Wyvern: 36 mil
Aeon: 29 mil (30 mil if you switch a t2 enam for another Corelum A-Type)
Hel: 27 mil
Nyx: 23 mil
Shield setup
Damage Control II
3x Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
2xDread Guristas Invulnerability Field
2xPith X-Type Photon Scattering Field
Pith X-Type Heat Dissipation Field
Pith X-Type Ballistic Deflection Field
Pith X-Type Explosion Dampening Field
3xLarge Core Defence Field Extender II
Armor setup
Damage Control II
Core X-Type Armor EM Hardener
Core X-Type Armor Thermic Hardener
Core X-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener
Core X-Type Armor Explosive Hardener
2xCorelum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
3xLarge Trimark Armor Pump II
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Larkonis Trassler
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2010.02.10 19:54:00 -
[62]
Did you take into account Slave Implants? You are able to boost armour by quite a bit with those.
Saying that, if the Hel pilot replaces some PDS with I-Stabs and throws in a Nomad set and plugs in a skirmish mindlink he can get his align time down to 10 seconds, faster than most BS while still maintaining around 25mil EHP. That's still a good 8 Doomsdays worth (more if you overload).
Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
No. Larkonis |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.02.10 19:55:00 -
[63]
 Originally by: Groot T
Its becoming more and more clear that you've not read the OP at all.
Firstly, you still haven't addressed the questions / points I presented you with earlier on which require you to have a vague understanding of the basics of my argument which I am putting forwards, as such the point you are making here is in no way valid.
I strongly advise you read the original & subsequent posts. Then re-think as to why I would ask people not to debate if carriers should armor or shield tank...
The only rationale you seem to have brought up for an armor Hel in the OP is "Motherships have had a name change to Super-carriers. This implies that they are burlier versions of their carrier counterparts". In other words, you're taking a really stupid name change and interpreting it as a design philosophy. And yet, when people make fun of you, you think the problem is with them.
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Altaica Amur
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.02.10 20:52:00 -
[64]
Quote:
Did you take into account Slave Implants? You are able to boost armour by quite a bit with those.
I didn't take that or fleet bonuses into account because even with those I couldn't replicate the op's numbers, either something's wrong with my eft or the OP's found another mechanic to increase armor hp. Also if it's the slave implants that push the armor tanks past the shield tanks perhaps it's that that we should look at instead of an overall rebalance of the ships based around the assumption that everyone wears slave implants, sure they probably should but it's an uneven assumption at least.
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.02.11 12:19:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Groot T
Its becoming more and more clear that you've not read the OP at all.
Firstly, you still haven't addressed the questions / points I presented you with earlier on which require you to have a vague understanding of the basics of my argument which I am putting forwards, as such the point you are making here is in no way valid.
I strongly advise you read the original & subsequent posts. Then re-think as to why I would ask people not to debate if carriers should armor or shield tank...
The only rationale you seem to have brought up for an armor Hel in the OP is "Motherships have had a name change to Super-carriers. This implies that they are burlier versions of their carrier counterparts". In other words, you're taking a really stupid name change and interpreting it as a design philosophy. And yet, when people make fun of you, you think the problem is with them.
Yamamoto for pres '10
Want to test a supercap on SISI but don't have one? |
BlueKind
Reaper Industries
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.02.21 22:08:00 -
[66]
----
Bluekind
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itgetsthe hoseagain
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Posted - 2010.02.23 16:15:00 -
[67]
I agree that the Hel needs to be brought in-line with the other Supercarriers, but the OP's proposals are inappropriate and also fail to address the Hel's obsolete bonus to remote repair modules.
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Numinos
Federal Investigations Agency
Ewoks
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Posted - 2010.03.24 17:43:00 -
[68]
I can nothing but support this thread.
here a few facts comparing the supercarriers:
Nyx: 35mio eHp with slaveset and a bit complex stuff.
Aeon: 38mio eHp with slaveset and a bit complex stuff.
Wyvern: 25mio with lots of pith x-typ stuff and 15k dps tank for 11min
Hel-armor: 15mio with about the same complex stuff.
Hel-shield: 15mio with lots of pith x type and 9k dpstank for 11min.
hope that makes clear how much inferior the hel is. with 30k dps it will take 19min to take a solo nyx down. for a hel it only takes half and the 9k selfrep doesnt help ****.
the main problem ist, the the slave set has a effeckt on a supercarrier while the crystal set doesnt.
hel needs a balance between shield and armor amount and the proposed 7/6/6 slot setup.
regards Numinos
unardiburges Geharse |
Mauryce
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Posted - 2010.03.24 21:53:00 -
[69]
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Larkonis Trassler
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2010.03.24 22:38:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Numinos
Edited by: Numinos on 24/03/2010 18:16:53
I can nothing but support this thread.
here a few facts comparing the supercarriers:
Nyx: 35mio eHp with slaveset and a bit complex stuff.
Aeon: 38mio eHp with slaveset and a bit complex stuff.
Wyvern: 25mio with lots of pith x-typ stuff and 15k dps tank for 11min
Hel-armor: 15mio with about the same complex stuff.
Hel-shield: 15mio with lots of pith x type and 9k dpstank for 11min.
hope that makes clear how much inferior the hel is. with 30k dps it will take 19min to take down a solo nyx . for a hel it only takes half and the 9k selfrep doesnt help ****.
the main problem is that the slave set has a effect on a supercarrier while the crystal set does not.
hel needs a balance between shield and armor amount and the proposed 7/6/6 slot setup.
regards Numinos
Comparing the Nyx and Hel (as neither have a resist bonus and the same number of tanking slots)
Calling bull sh*t on this one (not taking gang Boni into account) here, the only way to get 36 mil EHP out of a Nyx is with more than 'a bit' of complex stuff, you require a quad x-type hardener set and 2 A-type EANMs.
I just plugged in a Hel fit into EFT and was able to pull out 26mil EHP with a similar resistance profile to the Nyx (in fact each cap shield rep on it is around 20% more efficient than a CRAR on the Nyx), it also aligns 50% quicker and is twice as fast. You can get the alignment time down to <10 seconds if you forgo PDUs (at the cost of 4 mil EHP) for I-Stabs (crazy I know!). Also who the hell fits a local rep on a MILF these days?
If fact I think the issue here is more to do with slaves than the slot layout. HOWEVER, you have the advantage of being able to use Nomads on the shield tanked MILFs (CRAZY I KNOW!) and you can squeeze more effective RR out of shield tanks than armour tanks. I'd be more inclined to get slaves nerfed for caps or crystals buffed than giving in to the demands of the 'MUST ARMOUR TANK ALL CAPITALZ' crowd.
Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
No. Larkonis |
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Numinos
Federal Investigations Agency
Ewoks
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Posted - 2010.03.24 23:58:00 -
[71]
i actually havent thought about going passive shield and armor tank the same time. Ure right that pushes it up to 24mio ehp. but u need all slots pressed full with complex stuff to reach only 2/3 of the nyx. the nyx on the other hand has still all its medslots free for caprecharge or EW or whatever.
And i dont really see aligntime and topspeed as THE advantage in a badass capfight.
unardiburges Geharse |
Larkonis Trassler
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2010.03.25 00:51:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Numinos
i actually havent thought about going passive shield and armor tank the same time. Ure right that pushes it up to 24mio ehp. but u need all slots pressed full with complex stuff to reach only 2/3 of the nyx. the nyx on the other hand has still all its medslots free for caprecharge or EW or whatever.
And i dont really see aligntime and topspeed as THE advantage in a badass capfight.
I suppose it's all subjective I suppose but not everyone takes their supercaps into 0.0 and being able to avoid trouble and not get caught or being faster/more agile is more of an advantage than a massive HP buffer.
But yeah, it's not so much an issue with the slot layout (and I refuse to get into a debate on the merits of sheild vs armour tanking), more a problem with pirate implant sets and their effects on capitals.
Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
No. Larkonis |
Cinilla
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Posted - 2010.05.19 17:52:00 -
[73]
Avanti
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greymouse
Black Eclipse Corp
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Posted - 2010.05.19 19:56:00 -
[74]
Sig image removed. Was asking for username/password for Killboard. Zymurgist
Cry Havoc!! Release the Mice of Menace!!! |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.05.19 20:34:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Bagehi on 19/05/2010 20:37:42
Originally by: Numinos
i actually havent thought about going passive shield and armor tank the same time. Ure right that pushes it up to 24mio ehp. but u need all slots pressed full with complex stuff to reach only 2/3 of the nyx. the nyx on the other hand has still all its medslots free for caprecharge or EW or whatever.
Please show us this 35m EHP Nyx. I'm guessing it has 2+b isk of implants in the head plus faction/complex modules. Following this line of thinking can spawn EFT Warrior fits like this:
[Hel, Holy Hel]
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System x4
Damage Control II
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field x2
Pith X-Type Ballistic Deflection Field
Pith X-Type Photon Scattering Field x2
Pith X-Type Heat Dissipation Field
Pith X-Type Explosion Dampening Field
Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing
Large Core Defence Field Extender II
Large Core Defence Field Extender II
Large Core Defence Field Extender II
(with a shield mind link, ZET3000, KVA2000, KYA2000)
36+m EHP, a passive shield regen of about 4400 HP/sec, and a cap recharge similar to a Nyx with 3 cap rechargers.
The Nyx ends up with much less HP/sec, less EHP, much more cap use (Nyx has to use cap to get HP/sec), for 2 spare mid slots over the Hel. The Hel, in fact, has more flexibility than the Nyx (it can use all mid+low slots for bigger tank or substitute mid slots for other uses).
Again, EFT Warrior fits (which are usually not far off from how people fit a 15+b isk ship that can't be insured). The Hel is a tougher nut to crack than the Nyx.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Kristina Kirtchner
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Posted - 2010.06.28 17:56:00 -
[76]
The real desbalance are in the form which the supercarrier bonus are applied on each race:
Nyx: damage bonus apply on fightersbombers;
Aeon: Masive tank boost on armor resistances;
Wyrven: Masive tank boost on shield resistanes;
Hel: bonus of remote reps identical to a carrier.
Whit fleet combat fit, Hel can cap estable operate only two reps remotes.
In other words:
1 Nyx = damage done like 8 Thanatos
1 Aeon/Wyrvern = Tank like 15 carriers;
1 Hel = remote rep like 2 nid or 1 siege carrier;
Hels reps bonus need a rebalance fix acoording her supercarrier status.
Reps Range?
Amount of hp repaired?
Caps bonus to operate rep remote modules?
Tanks habilities arent the real problem if this fail bonuses will be fix.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.06.28 18:43:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Kristina Kirtchner
The real desbalance are in the form which the supercarrier bonus are applied on each race:
Nyx: damage bonus apply on fightersbombers;
Aeon: Masive tank boost on armor resistances;
Wyrven: Masive tank boost on shield resistanes;
Hel: bonus of remote reps identical to a carrier.
Whit fleet combat fit, Hel can cap estable operate only two reps remotes.
In other words:
1 Nyx = damage done like 8 Thanatos
1 Aeon/Wyrvern = Tank like 15 carriers;
1 Hel = remote rep like 2 nid or 1 siege carrier;
Hels reps bonus need a rebalance fix acoording her supercarrier status.
Reps Range?
Amount of hp repaired?
Caps bonus to operate rep remote modules?
Tanks habilities arent the real problem if this fail bonuses will be fix.
This seems like an accurate assessment. Because the bonuses are still based on the module, not the ship (like the other races' s-carriers), the bonuses do not scale up like those of the other races' s-carriers.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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EdFromHumanResources
hirr
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.06.28 22:22:00 -
[78]
Ya this needs to be done.
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