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Consequences of moving datacore production to 0.0

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Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles	Posted - 2010.02.27 18:39:00 - [1] I would like to draw people's attention to the latest CSM minutes, and in particular to this proposal: Quote: Moving datacore production to nullsec was identified as a possible means to give players incentives to operate there. What I think might happen if this were done: Massive speculation and initial price spikes, especially for Mechanical Engineering cores Datacore prices increase by a factor of 3-10 in the long term due to reduced supply stemming from the vastly increased risks of collecting them (rolling bubble camps outside the homes of decent agents, for example, or hours looking for exploration sites that drop them) T2 module prices increase significantly (build costs are tiny, almost negligible, compared to invention costs for most of them) T2 ship prices increase by a smaller margin, as invention costs are less significant for them People start to avoid using T2 by default, boosting meta 3-4 item prices (and making invention more expensive - vicious cycle?) Decryptors become viable for more invention jobs due to increased savings from using them -> some of the cheaper decryptors might rise in price. Along with the other farmers, Matalino finally despairs (if he hasn't already). Increased startup costs put more people off from doing invention, especially those who can't calculate their costs or who would normally farm their own cores- T2 margins increase slightly due to reduced competition This is fairly optimistic - I have no idea how long it would take to deplete existing stocks of datacores / RP. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression
Mashie Saldana Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.27 19:36:00 - [2] Or it could simply mean that datacores will be available in 0.0 as well.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.02.27 19:45:00 - [3] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 27/02/2010 19:45:52 Sounds good. Hi sec should be miserable for 2+ year old characters, and should be a training ground for the new players. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.02.27 19:47:00 - [4] Some T2 BPO holder camping a high sec gate in 0.0 just vid.
XXSketchxx Gallente Remote Soviet Industries Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2010.02.27 20:08:00 - [5] I don't understand. Datacores are farmed via agents correct? Does this mean the agents would be moved to NPC 0.0? That would be interesting. _____________________________________________ -Sketch, Certified Pharmacist Need a Boost?
Mahke Aeon Of Strife Discord.	Posted - 2010.02.27 20:28:00 - [6] The system would have to be rebuilt from the ground up; merely moving the agents to 0.0 space would result in a massive price spike for datacores and thus by extension for t2 stuff (which would benefit me personally but not so much the game as a whole).
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.02.27 20:46:00 - [7] Originally by: Mahke The system would have to be rebuilt from the ground up; merely moving the agents to 0.0 space would result in a massive price spike for datacores and thus by extension for t2 stuff (which would benefit me personally but not so much the game as a whole). Look at T3. You have to scan to find a WH, go there and scan for sites. Run those sites, hope you don't get scanned down and ganked while doing it. Cross your fingers you find the items you are looking for. Then make it back out of there before the WH collapses. While moving R&D agents to 0.0 means that datacores will only be collected right before and after DT in a covops or BR. Not really a lot of risk even from camps.
Drexciyian The Water Margin Tech	Posted - 2010.02.27 22:08:00 - [8] Nice boost to t2 bpo owners
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.27 22:13:00 - [9] Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Mahke The system would have to be rebuilt from the ground up; merely moving the agents to 0.0 space would result in a massive price spike for datacores and thus by extension for t2 stuff (which would benefit me personally but not so much the game as a whole). Look at T3. You have to scan to find a WH, go there and scan for sites. Run those sites, hope you don't get scanned down and ganked while doing it. Cross your fingers you find the items you are looking for. Then make it back out of there before the WH collapses. While moving R&D agents to 0.0 means that datacores will only be collected right before and after DT in a covops or BR. Not really a lot of risk even from camps. Really? Let's see a bit of aftereffect of this "bright idea": - how many alts people want to manage in 0.0? Especially carebears opting for a easy to maintain alt? cut production by 50% - standing: how much people can use level 4 agents in 0.0? Ok, cut datacore production by another 50% or so (to 25%) - skills: how many 0.0 characters with the right standing want to train a science skill to 5 and research project management to at least 4? drop production by another 50% (so we are at 12.5%) - how much production lost to gatecamp? let's be generous, only 10% (so we are down to 11.5%) - ever tried moving a few datacore with a cov ops? Cargo space is a bit small. - you have half an idea about how much datacores inventors use? I can easily consume 200 of them in a day without even trying hard. That mean that I need 12 R&D characters with level 5 skill in science, level 4 in research project management and 5 good quality level 4 agents to feed me enough datacores to run my inventions. I thing that datacore prices would return to the old "first day of invention" levels very fast (3+ millions each one). So what would we have? a single "wonderful" cluster of R&D agents in a single station in 0.0 to form a "nice" agent hub like those almost no one use in low sec? So that we would have a nice big alliance camping it to death saying "all mine" and a huge blob trying to push them away from the new big passive income source? Or a R&D agent in each station and our heroic R&D alt jumping around in 0.0 to harvest them from five different agents, possibly of multiple factions? As usual for this CSM they seem to lack any capability to think about the immediate gain for the play stile they like and a total lack of foresight about the consequences of the proposed changes. Unless the goal isn't that of simply making the T2 BPO they own more valuable.
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2010.02.27 22:36:00 - [10] it really, really depends on the implementation. Just moving the research agents to npc 0.0 would be utterly lazy on CCP's part and wouldn't really entice people to 0.0, just require them to occasionally pick up their datacores via carrier. _____________________ Horrors! Demons in the deep!

Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.02.27 22:44:00 - [11] Originally by: Venkul Mul Unless the goal isn't that of simply making the T2 BPO they own more valuable. Most likely scenario. T2 BPO's break this game.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.02.27 23:03:00 - [12] Originally by: Venkul Mul - how many alts people want to manage in 0.0? Especially carebears opting for a easy to maintain alt? cut production by 50% True Quote: - standing: how much people can use level 4 agents in 0.0? Ok, cut datacore production by another 50% or so (to 25%) If they only moved R&D agents you can still run missions in highsec for the standings just like you have to do now anyway. Quote: - skills: how many 0.0 characters with the right standing want to train a science skill to 5 and research project management to at least 4? drop production by another 50% (so we are at 12.5%) How many people have done just that then unsubbed their account for a year. Resubbed, collected cores, profit, unsub for another year? Quote: - how much production lost to gatecamp? let's be generous, only 10% (so we are down to 11.5%) I'd rather fly through 0.0 than lowsec any day. Right now I have 2 agents that are 15+ jumps through high sec or 6 through 0.0 to get from one to the other. In all my trips through the 0.0 systems I have always been the only person in local. Of course with everyone knowing that agents are there, that would change of course, but then again, I'm sure some 0.0 alliances would be happy to transport them to highsec, for a fee of course. Quote: - ever tried moving a few datacore with a cov ops? Cargo space is a bit small. Very small, but it's the price you pay for instawarping cloaked. Quote: - you have half an idea about how much datacores inventors use? I can easily consume 200 of them in a day without even trying hard. I can use 1000 a day easy. I have 9 characters doing invention/production. Quote: So that we would have a nice big alliance camping it to death saying "all mine" and a huge blob trying to push them away from the new big passive income source? Which is why it will never happen.
Dex Nederland Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2010.02.27 23:29:00 - [13] Could be a new POS Lab/Caldari Outpost mechanic introduced that produces datacores, conduct 24 hours of research in Science X produce 1 datacore of type X. Another option would be to actually increase the rate of return on said research. Right now most agents produce roughly 1/day. Increasing the rate at which a POS Lab/Caldari Outpost produces them would help to soften the blow. Another option is a tie into Tyrannis where worlds with a particular upgrade produce datacores. Just ideas. CEO, Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles	Posted - 2010.02.27 23:39:00 - [14] Originally by: Breaker77 Quote: So that we would have a nice big alliance camping it to death saying "all mine" and a huge blob trying to push them away from the new big passive income source? Which is why it will never happen. I know a few dysprosium moons who might have a few words to say about that, if only they could speak. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression
Lord Zarcam Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2010.02.28 03:19:00 - [15] This is just another attempt by a few hard-core PVP'ers to force people to 0.0 so they can have more easy targets. They just don't get it that some people do not want to PvP. Here's a idea for them to chew on, make high-sec smaller and force all PVP'ers to low/null sec. Oh wait, they would not have any easy kills then. Oh my, lets not let that happen! In Space, No One Can Hear You Scream!
Misanthra	Posted - 2010.02.28 03:29:00 - [16] Originally by: Drexciyian Nice boost to t2 bpo owners Basically. Looking at price markup even on crap faction gear from null sec to jita....either the alliances in control will have their way with pricing. Or the independents in null sec or those who run the blockade as it where will not be charging discount prices on these things (they might even charge more lol, since not blue to anyone out there...added danger pay). T2 owner will gladly raise his price more to be close to equal with what inventors are paying for invention for datacores coming from a region in a war.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.28 04:21:00 - [17] can't really say anything without more details. would this be at a pos, a planet (yay trannys!), outpost, npc station, or exploration? it could work
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.28 08:33:00 - [18] Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Venkul Mul - how many alts people want to manage in 0.0? Especially carebears opting for a easy to maintain alt? cut production by 50% True Quote: - standing: how much people can use level 4 agents in 0.0? Ok, cut datacore production by another 50% or so (to 25%) If they only moved R&D agents you can still run missions in highsec for the standings just like you have to do now anyway. So CCP should implement NPC stations in 0.0 for the R&D corporations? We are speaking of something like 12 corporations with several station each. I doubt NPC 0.0 and its denizens could accept the sudden apparition of 100-300 NPC stations without problems. If they appear in player owned stations (maybe with a industry upgrade) they become a static income option controlled by the station owners. Originally by: Breaker77 Quote: - skills: how many 0.0 characters with the right standing want to train a science skill to 5 and research project management to at least 4? drop production by another 50% (so we are at 12.5%) How many people have done just that then unsubbed their account for a year. Resubbed, collected cores, profit, unsub for another year? Quote: - how much production lost to gatecamp? let's be generous, only 10% (so we are down to 11.5%) I'd rather fly through 0.0 than lowsec any day. Right now I have 2 agents that are 15+ jumps through high sec or 6 through 0.0 to get from one to the other. In all my trips through the 0.0 systems I have always been the only person in local. Of course with everyone knowing that agents are there, that would change of course, but then again, I'm sure some 0.0 alliances would be happy to transport them to highsec, for a fee of course. Quote: - ever tried moving a few datacore with a cov ops? Cargo space is a bit small. Very small, but it's the price you pay for instawarping cloaked. Quote: - you have half an idea about how much datacores inventors use? I can easily consume 200 of them in a day without even trying hard. I can use 1000 a day easy. I have 9 characters doing invention/production. Seeing how I can use 200 with one character doing invention work, your number don't impress me. Make it 2k and we are even. Originally by: Breaker77 Quote: So that we would have a nice big alliance camping it to death saying "all mine" and a huge blob trying to push them away from the new big passive income source? Which is why it will never happen. Probable.
clixoras	Posted - 2010.02.28 10:53:00 - [19] Originally by: Chaos Incarnate it really, really depends on the implementation. Just moving the research agents to npc 0.0 would be utterly lazy on CCP's part and wouldn't really entice people to 0.0, just require them to occasionally pick up their datacores via carrier. Aside from the fact that industry characters are not really likely to fly a carrier, i dont think it's particularly smart to fly a carrier solo in 0.0. As i see it, it's another desperate attempt to get people into 0.0. In the end (or very soon) it will monopolized by the major alliances who get bigger and bigger. So it will be counterproductive as it reduces the chance for smaller alliances to survive and thus reducing the incentive to go to nullsec in the first place. Also, you have to travel more as agents will likely be scattered which makes it a PITA. And B.T.W. what is so wrong with the general idea of large manufacturing operations in hi-sec? I thought another goal was to increase player interaction. It will only make the big alliances more autistic as they already are.
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.02.28 11:43:00 - [20] There are no level 5 R&D agents yet. Introducing a set of them in 0.0 NPC stations under the same system as the currently existing level 1-4 R&D agents would encourage some people to move over to using them in order to get a greater RP yield. If the existing agents remain unchanged then this will result in a boost in datacore production and a reduction (however small) in datacore price. Some of these people will behave like idiots and fall before the guns of PvPers. Some will be smart and harvest these datacores without loss. Those that only cash in their datacores infrequently will stand to benefit the most and risk the least in moving to them. So if they implemented it that way it's a nerf to datacore return from hi-sec (which is probably a good thing) a buff to datacore return from riskier locations (which is probably a good thing) and a buff to passing trade for pirates and other PvPers (which is probably a good thing). The extent of the nerf/buff depends too much on the specific numbers to predict. I would probably support this change. Particularly if they put more high quality level 1-4 R&D agents in low-sec too. I like datacores providing a passive income, I like the idea of there being a greater variety of risk/return scenarios for people to choose between when setting up datacore harvesting. While I support the idea of having lots of defuse income sources all over eve that are more difficult to camp or farm in order to encourage and support certain playstyles and prevent other playstyles from dominating, I also support the idea of having lots of point income sources all over eve that can be camped and farmed in order to encourage and support those playstyles too. A lot of corps and a lot of enjoyable PvP situations have formed around these point sources in the past, it's part of the idea of being able to seize and own a part of space and gain the benefits from it. The key thing is getting the right balance in these things and not allowing any one source of income to dominate.

RAW23	Posted - 2010.02.28 11:52:00 - [21] I've never harvested datacores so forgive me if I'm missing something here but ... Datacore harvesting provides an almost completely passive income, right? All you have to do is collect them once in a while (potentially once in a very long while by the sounds of it). The aim of moving datacore production to 0.0 would be to get more people living in 0.0. But there is no need for people to live permanently anywhere near their passive income sources. The result will be to add a small number of people to 0.0 for a fractionally small amount of time. This change might make a few people travel into 0.0 and transit through it who might otherwise not have done so, but I can't see how it would actually increase the population of people living there (the stated aim of the change). Am I missing something here? Also, anyone have any idea of how many CSM members are T2 BPO owners and, thus, not suitable to make disinterested decisions on this matter?
Skarii TuThess Lansez Innovations	Posted - 2010.02.28 11:58:00 - [22] Moving agents to npc 0.0 wouldn't solve the issue of making moving to 0.0 more of an incentive - the npc 0.0 regions have always been reasonably well populated and lots of corps base themselves around high level npc 0.0 agents. I agree with the idea of making living in deep 0.0 more self sustainable, without the need to keep jumping back to empire regularly. Therefore the addition of things like POS fuel and datacores to 0.0 should happen, although with many things the devil is in the detail. You should need a reasonable industry backbone at least, possible upgrades etc. The changes to 0.0 to allow smaller alliances a chance to get out there have been good, but the lack of infrastructure makes it impossible for them to live in deep 0.0. However the idea of "moving" (as ooposed to adding) datacores to nullsec I think is extremely dangerous for the economy of the game.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2010.02.28 12:03:00 - [23] Originally by: RAW23 Datacore harvesting provides an almost completely passive income, right? All you have to do is collect them once in a while (potentially once in a very long while by the sounds of it). Spot on. The emphasis being on collecting them and shipping them to market. One could, of course, simply farm the datacores with an alt who lives in the agent's station and sell the datacores on the market there, leaving the risk of carriage to someone else. [Aussie players: join channels ANZAC or AUSSIES]
clixoras	Posted - 2010.02.28 12:17:00 - [24] Originally by: Bad Bobby So if they implemented it that way it's a nerf to datacore return from hi-sec (which is probably a good thing) a buff to datacore return from riskier locations (which is probably a good thing) and a buff to passing trade for pirates and other PvPers (which is probably a good thing). The extent of the nerf/buff depends too much on the specific numbers to predict. I would probably support this change. Particularly if they put more high quality level 1-4 R&D agents in low-sec too. If we're talking about ADDING L5 agents in 0.0, i would also be a supporter of that. First of all, the dedicated industry/invention types do get choices (risk vs reward) which in general i'm always a supporter of. The OP was clearly stating that this is about NERFING hi-sec harvesting and replacing it with 0.0 agents. The change will be larger than 'just adding a few r&d agents' though. Players need to reach required corp standings, so they need to add other types of agents as well then. Or are we going to see 0.0 carebears in empire :)
Wyke Mossari Gallente Staner Industries	Posted - 2010.02.28 12:26:00 - [25] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Or it could simply mean that datacores will be available in 0.0 as well. I think would be a better approach than moving them. Perhaps lvl 5 R&D agents should be found in nulsec so the incentive is an increased reward, rather than the appearance of nerfing datacore production. Perhaps make T3 datacores available in nulsec.
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.02.28 12:35:00 - [26] Originally by: Bad Bobby Those that only cash in their datacores infrequently will stand to benefit the most and risk the least in moving to them. Originally by: RAW23 But there is no need for people to live permanently anywhere near their passive income sources. Exactly. This is why I said that it would only introduce a little more passing trade to PvPers. It won't increase population. However, if they also made the R&D missions that double your daily datacore yield better then that could encourage people to be more active with their R&D agents which would in turn help the population in areas near them. Originally by: Mara Rinn The emphasis being on collecting them and shipping them to market. One could, of course, simply farm the datacores with an alt who lives in the agent's station and sell the datacores on the market there, leaving the risk of carriage to someone else. More trade activity in those areas isn't a bad thing either. Originally by: Skarii TuThess the npc 0.0 regions have always been reasonably well populated Increasing that population a little more wouldn't hurt. The same goes for low-sec. Giving the pirate factions R&D agents in their stations would be a nice touch. Seeding more stations in NPC 0.0 and low-sec with more high quality or high level R&D agents would be nice. I wouldn't want to see non-NPC 0.0 stuffed full of NPC stations. CCP can rebalance the drop rate of datacores in plexes to encourage more plexing for them too. Combining that with better R&D missions would be a good step in the right direction.
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.02.28 12:54:00 - [27] Originally by: Skarii TuThess I agree with the idea of making living in deep 0.0 more self sustainable That I don't agree with. Forcing interaction with hi-sec encourages trade, travel and combat. The addition of jump bridges and jump freighters has had a very negative impact on the amount of gate-to-gate haulage that occurs in low-sec and 0.0 which is a bad thing for piracy and for supply inderdiction in warfare. The addition of huge anchorable structures that have to be imported from hi-sec in the recent sov changes has been a good thing. The mass limits on wormholes and the incentive to run POSes inside them have also been good in this area. I would like to see more of that rather than less. Making people haul hi-sec sourced materials for POS fueling is a good thing, in my opinion, and I do a fair amount of POS maintainance in inhospitable places so I understand what I'm talking about. Giving people more reasons to haul in normal haulers or freighters and encouraging people not to just hug POSes, stations and jump bridges with them is all good. Buffs to piracy are something I always welcome. More hauler, orca and feighter kills are ideal sources of income to the "pure" pirate that wishes to fund their lifestyle with booty. Give me enough profitable targets in low-sec, 0.0 and wormhole space and I'd sell off the last few parts of my industrial empire and complete the shift to full time piracy. It's got a lot better with recent expansions, just a little bit more buff and we'll be in to the next golden age of eve piracy.
Carniflex StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.02.28 14:01:00 - [28] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Or it could simply mean that datacores will be available in 0.0 as well. Datacores are already available in 0.0 thru exploration. What CCP possibly mean would be pumping up the drop amounts dropping in exploration or adding extra source of datacores on top of exploration (for example planetary interaction). Afterall they have not stated that they will remove passive datacore generation thru R&D agents. So what would happen would be price crash of datacores or in other words lower invention costs for getting the prints. A indirect T2 BPO nerf. Would be harder to run 'free' accounts also by getting 15 R&D agents on account and buying GTC's with isk from datacore selling (like I do with some of my accounts).
Fulbert Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.28 15:16:00 - [29] Edited by: Fulbert on 28/02/2010 15:19:02 Any 10milSP+ character is able to avoid 0.0 gatecamps with a T3 cruiser fitted with interdiction nullifier & covert reconfig. More than 250 datacores in one trip - that's months of datacore farming, even with 2 or 3 agents. Gatecamps aren't a problem. IMHO, boosting 0.0 income won't bring more individuals. People go to nullsec when their corp get an access to it : NRDS, standing agreement, or sov. Highsec NPC corp players won't go in nullsec space, cause the whole risk versus reward stuff is broken. -------------------------------- Fulbert. Miner - Industrialist
Carniflex StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.02.28 15:55:00 - [30] Edited by: Carniflex on 28/02/2010 15:55:15 Originally by: Fulbert Edited by: Fulbert on 28/02/2010 15:19:02 Any 10milSP+ character is able to avoid 0.0 gatecamps with a T3 cruiser fitted with interdiction nullifier & covert reconfig. More than 250 datacores in one trip - that's months of datacore farming, even with 2 or 3 agents. Gatecamps aren't a problem. IMHO, boosting 0.0 income won't bring more individuals. People go to nullsec when their corp get an access to it : NRDS, standing agreement, or sov. Highsec NPC corp players won't go in nullsec space, cause the whole risk versus reward stuff is broken. If the cores would be produced in 0.0 stations (altho I personally do not believe CCP would go that route) the easiest way to 'cash in' would be the jump clones. Install one jump clone at each station you need to cash in and then clone jump over 5 days into each of them for 'cash in'. Don't need to travel thru 0.0 at all once you have made it to the station once. That tackiks is reasonable even currently for the hi sec agents. After that all you need is to collect all the cores with one character - carrier for example is pretty good for that. No need to go thru all those gates and stuff. And it's not like anyone is able to get you if you know what you are doing and don't use kickout stations or take unreasonable risks. If you read the minutes mentioned above though there is other things proposed in my opinion that would have far wider effect in EVE and in null sec than ability to get few extra datacores. For example proposal that one should not be able to dock if warp scrambled or bringing back Titan's ability to DD in low sec (especially in combination with inability to dock if scrambled). Undocking JF's would become quite fast a rather risky gamble on the lines 'wonder if there is recon cloaked near by waiting to scramble me'. Nothing major ofc, as JF's would just start undocking 40 sec before DT or if there is no neutrals in local. Assuming the timer remains at 30 sec before you can redock or jump.



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