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[Exploit] FIX THE DAMN aggro-, double- and warp-logoff EXPLOITS!

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Dark Drifter Amarr Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.09 22:42:00 - [31] ok has noone herd of combat probes? have an lat sit with 4 probes at 1 at aound a gate. survs 2 functions: 1: insta scan for BC's and bigger on log in (if agressed for shooting/being shot by u)the players ship will sit in space for 15minits so scan them down and kill them while they log off 2: pilot in capship (fitted with cloak) will be scanned when they land on there SS grid the cloak is not going to sace them when u warp to 0m with a fleet containing ceptors and drones i dont personaly see any of the OPs complaints as exploits (dont use them either) if u want the KM then go the extra mile to get it, that simple stow whining anD tool up for the job in hand .. to our departed friend EDD "april 09" fly true man
Red Raider Caldari Airbourne Demons DeMoN's N AnGeL's	Posted - 2010.03.09 22:49:00 - [32] Originally by: Ephemeron Originally by: Red Raider Agreed for 2 and 3 but 1 is intentional. It may be intentional but it's still carebear. If the log off timer was 2 minutes, that non-aggro exploit wouldn't be so useful. In most cases when people log right before they are targeted, the attacker needs just 30-60 seconds more to finish the job. And lets face it, if you log off on purpose to save the ship, you deserve no pity. You must be destroyed. Thats all fine and good until you go LD warping into (insert combat scenario here) and die because you had no chance to defend yourself against (insert anything that shoots here). A lot of legitimate disconnects happen at handoff's and spawn points like undocking, jumping, and entering a deadspace area. If you didn't get to kill that shiny Freighter because he pulled the plug on you then you should have brought more firepower. It sucks and it is carebear but you COULD have done it where as a legitimate disconnect shouldn't suffer a ton of grief over a technical issue. As it is now I believe someone discoing is an exploit so when they do it report them and let CCP handle them. CCP developed the 1 minute timer for a reason and with a lot of thought to prevent accidental ship losses and the influx of petitions that would follow asking for reimbursement. So since you know that you have 1 minute to kill your target if he/she is a douche then plan accordingly and make the douche pay dearly. Especially since if he disco's his pod will still warp off to a safespot and you can still report him for discoing and he lost his ship.
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.03.09 23:08:00 - [33] Originally by: Dark Drifter ... How would probes help with catching lock-immune ship in lowsec or preventing ships breaking thru gazillions of bubbles from POS in WH? Originally by: Red Raider Thats all fine and good until you go LD warping into (insert combat scenario here) and die because you had no chance to defend yourself against (insert anything that shoots here). A lot of legitimate disconnects happen at handoff's and spawn points like undocking, jumping, and entering a deadspace area. Don't make LD jumps, especially in systems with only 2 gates. Burn your cap to warp within 1-14 au from gate, check, then warp to gate. Originally by: Red Raider If you didn't get to kill that shiny Freighter because he pulled the plug on you then you should have brought more firepower. It sucks and it is carebear but you COULD have done it where as a legitimate disconnect shouldn't suffer a ton of grief over a technical issue. As it is now I believe someone discoing is an exploit so when they do it report them and let CCP handle them. CCP developed the 1 minute timer for a reason and with a lot of thought to prevent accidental ship losses and the influx of petitions that would follow asking for reimbursement. There should be absolutely NO difference between disconnect and log off in PvP (in PvE it may be okay imo) - as i stated this encourages players to simulate disconnect in trouble. If you get disconnected often then your ISP/switch/power upply is pile of ****, blame it and not CCP. Yes, any disconnected person in PvP battle shouldn't have ANY additional options/abilities when compared to logged off player.
Ogogov	Posted - 2010.03.10 00:03:00 - [34] not supported to see pirate tears :)
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.10 00:26:00 - [35] I had my share of disconnects, both during a fight and just traveling. And I can't think of a single PvP situation where I was glad that the server disconnected me. You know why? Because when you pvp, you have the 15 min aggro timer. People who disconnect during pvp do not benefit from current exploit mechanics at all. Only the people who disconnect seconds before aggro benefit. And what are the chances that you are going to randomly disconnect within a few seconds on combat? 23*3600 = 82800 so for 10 seconds, it's 1:8280 chance of legitimate disconnect. And what are the chances of somebody disconnecting on purpose 10 seconds before combat? I'm pretty damn sure it's 1000 times more.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2010.03.10 02:52:00 - [36] Every other MMORPG I have played has a harsher log off system than in EVE and that is just flat out unacceptable for a "hardcore" MMORPG. In these other games you have to sit still for 20-30 seconds and if something interrupts you (like say by attacking you) you must sit there until you reconnect. If you die, then so be it. Let's get real here, the vast majority (well over 99%) of log offs after jumping through a gate are not real disconnects. And ffs if you log off, you should reappear exactly where you left off, no repeated log on/log off tricks to magically teleport to a safe location. These exploits should have been fixed years ago and it is an embarrassment for CCP to be so blind. I thought this CSM was supposed to bring issues to CCP, how many years have players repeatedly brought up this subject to CCP with no response. Supporting this, although I have little hope as I've been watching targets get out of jail free for well over 3 years. Originally by: Jim Raynor EVE needs danger, EVE needs risks, EVE needs combat, even piracy, without these things, the game stagnates to a trivial game centering around bloating your wallet with no purpose.
Sherlock Masterson Amarr Fugitive Biomass	Posted - 2010.03.10 02:57:00 - [37] /signed
Red Raider Caldari Airbourne Demons DeMoN's N AnGeL's	Posted - 2010.03.10 04:45:00 - [38] Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Originally by: Dark Drifter ... How would probes help with catching lock-immune ship in lowsec or preventing ships breaking thru gazillions of bubbles from POS in WH? Originally by: Red Raider Thats all fine and good until you go LD warping into (insert combat scenario here) and die because you had no chance to defend yourself against (insert anything that shoots here). A lot of legitimate disconnects happen at handoff's and spawn points like undocking, jumping, and entering a deadspace area. Don't make LD jumps, especially in systems with only 2 gates. Burn your cap to warp within 1-14 au from gate, check, then warp to gate. Originally by: Red Raider If you didn't get to kill that shiny Freighter because he pulled the plug on you then you should have brought more firepower. It sucks and it is carebear but you COULD have done it where as a legitimate disconnect shouldn't suffer a ton of grief over a technical issue. As it is now I believe someone discoing is an exploit so when they do it report them and let CCP handle them. CCP developed the 1 minute timer for a reason and with a lot of thought to prevent accidental ship losses and the influx of petitions that would follow asking for reimbursement. There should be absolutely NO difference between disconnect and log off in PvP (in PvE it may be okay imo) - as i stated this encourages players to simulate disconnect in trouble. If you get disconnected often then your ISP/switch/power upply is pile of ****, blame it and not CCP. Yes, any disconnected person in PvP battle shouldn't have ANY additional options/abilities when compared to logged off player. I knew when I posted this that someone wouldn't know that LD means link dead. This is caused by the server and there is nothing you can do about it. So NOT flying into situations where you go LD is not an option.
Daymio Research and Development Shop	Posted - 2010.03.10 05:33:00 - [39] signed for fix warp-logoff.
Mihalich Gray Hunters White Noise.	Posted - 2010.03.10 06:55:00 - [40] OH, WAIT...

Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.03.10 07:05:00 - [41] Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 10/03/2010 07:05:00 Originally by: Red Raider I knew when I posted this that someone wouldn't know that LD means link dead. This is caused by the server and there is nothing you can do about it. So NOT flying into situations where you go LD is not an option. So essentially you say that eve cluster disconnects you while keeping other players in the same/nearby system on-line? Nah, never've been in such situation.
HaartSp The Deliberate Forces	Posted - 2010.03.10 08:26:00 - [42] Supported
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.03.10 08:48:00 - [43] Quote: Also, during highsec war, if you have camping enemy pilot and he jumps to your small camp, he can just logoff on his CNR or Marauder - and to disappear after 1 minute. A CNR surviving 1 minute of non NPC attacks? Are you bravely attacking him with T1 fit Kestrels? Why all those who fail killing a ship in 1 minute were THEM the carebears not daring to bring in the real guns. Fear to lose some precious battleship that you CBA bringing enough firepower to kill a enemy you know is arriving? Why never is mentioned about 101 of bringing probes? What's it, 1k ISK is too much to afford them? Quote: Every other MMORPG I have played has a harsher log off system than in EVE and that is just flat out unacceptable for a "hardcore" MMORPG In the other MMOs you pay 20 silver repairs and are good to go again. In EvE I land in say Mordus headhunters and lose a Gist-X shield (plus the rest of the ship (btw the shield is an example, I wish I had that)) because the client crashed or similar. Quote: Let's get real here, the vast majority (well over 99%) of log offs after jumping through a gate are not real disconnects. And ffs if you log off, you should False, non TCP/IP hard disconnect related disconnects happen because of client or connection issues after something new loaded, thus crashing after a warp or after arriving in a mission / PLEX is one of the top causes. Quote: So essentially you say that eve cluster disconnects you while keeping other players in the same/nearby system on-line? Nah, never've been in such situation. Right yesterday I got an error about "the station facilities are only available while inside a station". Too bad I was in a station since 10 minutes and I asked to use no facility at all. The game CAN bork up. I am sorry that people CBA to bring enough firepower to kill defensless, stationary ships, with no CONCORD, when in high sec others can alpha and suicide gank the same ships with no problem. Next time, instead of calling coward the guy (the right adjective for him is: idiot), try thinking why you can't achieve what others do in hi sec every day. Too stingy? Not caring to scout he's arriving so you field too little firepower? Not caring to bring probes? Not read that NOIR article on how they counter logoffskies? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2010.03.10 09:02:00 - [44] This is not really my issue to discuss on, but it seems to me like these suggestions will make it even more rewarding to blob up to hell and back? ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Moad Dip	Posted - 2010.03.10 09:11:00 - [45] signed
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.03.10 09:19:00 - [46] Quote: This is not really my issue to discuss on, but it seems to me like these suggestions will make it even more rewarding to blob up to hell and back? No, all it'll change is that if today they have to work "hard" to kill a logoffski (unless it's a russian macro but then they are macros and are obnoxious to tricks). Tomorrow those who today go in recklessy with a chance to die, will stop going in recklessy and thus the chances of killing them will decrease, not increase. Anyway, all of this talk is pointless without proper statictics (which CCP probably got) telling what % of logoffski missed kills vs how many non logoffski kills happen. It's probably a zero dot zero zero something % and it's why it's in the backburner, compared to how often real disconnects happen. Some will miss the simple fact that not everyone live in London, many connect with all what they contry has to offer, that is garbage. I used to have some Greek friends who envied me when I had a 200k awful DSL with 500ms latency. They had to pay like 65 euros a month to have it even worse. I don't know how much their situation changed since 2 years ago, I recall when we raided and they disconnected ALL at least once every 4 hours. Imagine how nice would be to lose weeks of grinding with such probability and have no chance to have a better connection. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Tairon Usaro The X-Trading Company RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.10 09:50:00 - [47] Edited by: Tairon Usaro on 10/03/2010 09:58:09 Edited by: Tairon Usaro on 10/03/2010 09:50:31 Originally by: Dark Drifter ok has noone herd of combat probes? have an lat sit with 4 probes at 1 at aound a gate. survs 2 functions: 1: insta scan for BC's and bigger on log in (if agressed for shooting/being shot by u)the players ship will sit in space for 15minits so scan them down and kill them while they log off Start playing in 0.0 You obviously have no glue what you are talking about. I can tackle a ship and it logs out after a minute. not E-Warping to a 1 mio spott, it logs out ! How do scan a ship thats not there ?!? Quote: Anyway, all of this talk is pointless without proper statictics (which CCP probably got) telling what % of logoffski missed kills vs how many non logoffski kills happen. It's probably a zero dot zero zero something % and it's why it's in the backburner, compared to how often real disconnects happen. we are not talking so much complaining about ships that log off before they got tackled (though i say logging off in front of an enemy should never be an option for saving the ship), we are talking about ships that are successfully tackled and taking damage, that have not not aggressed and therefore do not get the 15 minute timer, but log out after one minute...... In essence freighters and other capitals are completly indestructible to small to medium gangs, who cannot burn through the HP in one minute, ( but would certainly be abble to take down the ship in 15 Minutes). I dont request to change the current log off times, i only request, that a ship, thats being aggressed by players get the 15 minute timer ... ________________________________________________ Some days i loose, some days the others win ...
Roemy Schneider Vanishing Point.	Posted - 2010.03.10 10:17:00 - [48] 1) no - besides there's another story to it after that 2) definitely 3) definitely - putting the gist back into logistics
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.03.10 10:48:00 - [49] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 10/03/2010 10:50:26 Quote: we are talking about ships that are successfully tackled and taking damage, that have not not aggressed and therefore do not get the 15 minute timer, but log out after one minute...... Well, like I pointed in another unrelated thread (about RR mechanics) old & ugly foundation code (read: touch it and the game easily breaks) is managing both PvE and PvP and this is a major scare factor for CCP to make changes, expecially when the cases are so specific. In particular, in some places the code seems not discerning between NPC vs PC being the originator of the actions. Example of very often DC / crash scenario: player warps in PLEX or mission, NPCs could almost insta-scram (usually it's NPC frigs vs player battleship size signature). With no intervening mechanic, the ship is basically as good as dead. To counter this CCP made frigs randomly turn off scram or switch to web and often there's some KMs of space before the frigs can lock, all to prevent lots of ragequits and petitions. There are still some missions which are an harsher exception to this, though and it's why I believe they still let exist that behavior you noticed. Now, if the combat code could detect that it's a PC point being made and not an NPC, it could probably act differently. Something tells me it's not so though and to change it, it requires to open their can'o'worms code. Quote: In essence freighters and other capitals are completly indestructible to small to medium gangs, who cannot burn through the HP in one minute, ( but would certainly be abble to take down the ship in 15 Minutes). Maybe it's intended. They are bringing their biggest available "horsepower", not an iteron. You are bringing in an agile setup (to be able to GTFO I suppose, are you sure you are not being 'bear at all in this?) that is not your biggest available horsepower, yet you want to kill their biggest horsepower? I mean, would using battleships be enough? Yes, they are. But you use BCs and / or HACs and / or inties etc because YOU don't want to be hotdropped so YOU are also not perfectly virgin in this talk. Said that, I'd be totally fine to have PC scrammed ships die, I just don't think CCP are ready to fiddle with what "works since years". I'll even add more meat about the exploits: ok it's fine that T3 needed some "push" because after so much work they revealed to be meh and players ignored them. But isn't it vastly too much (to "sell" T3 to the players) to give them te ability to be unscannable? What counter for that? Logoffski can be countered with effort, exactly like MWD + cloak can be < 100% safe. But what's counterable about total immunity from probes? goes to create a thread for it - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Root'er	Posted - 2010.03.10 10:50:00 - [50] support all , it's just stupid that you can save your ship just by logging off

Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.03.10 10:59:00 - [51] Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 10/03/2010 11:01:48 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Right yesterday I got an error about "the station facilities are only available while inside a station". Too bad I was in a station since 10 minutes and I asked to use no facility at all. The game CAN bork up. Seems like it's related to your connection anyway, as i didn't have any single occassion of such dcs. All of dcs i've experienced are problem of my ISP. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha (usually it's NPC frigs vs player battleship size signature). With no intervening mechanic, the ship is basically as good as dead. FYI - npcs do not have scan resolution, they have reaction delay (min and max, random amount of milliseconds between two these is picked) after which they lock you. Personally, i don't mind intervening in PvE-only as long as it can be steadily and reliably separated from all other cases.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.03.10 11:22:00 - [52] Quote: Seems like it's related to your connection anyway, as i didn't have any single occassion of such dcs. All of dcs i've experienced are problem of my ISP. It is not a disconnection, in fact I did not disconnect, had just to press "OK" to the message. Game just acted up, an eventuality you cannot remove even with years of debugging. Quote: Personally, i don't mind intervening in PvE-only as long as it can be steadily and reliably separated from all other cases. And that's exactly what ATM is not implemented, along with proper RR attribution of aggression / timers etc. Some things are very old, IE the counters to RRing NPCs till they would kill an NPC scrammed player piloted neutral ship. This is why they are probably vary to change things, the ripple consequences are always ready to bite. Quote: Lol. They do not switch scram to web if you stay in their scram/web range. I mission for lots of hours a week, do you think I have not seen what frigs do? They CAN drop scram. Whether it's another ship putting up the web (same name, can't demonstrate it's the same) or it's the one who previously had scram up, does not change the result. Quote: So you say that you can catch warp-logoff freighter in lowsec? Eve-search for NOIR's "tutorial"? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.03.10 11:27:00 - [53] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha It is not a disconnection, in fact I did not disconnect, had just to press "OK" to the message. Game just acted up, an eventuality you cannot remove even with years of debugging. Then it's a bug which needs to be tracked down and fixed, eliminating its impact by mechanics which will influence tons of other situations is bad idea. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha And that's exactly what ATM is not implemented, along with proper RR attribution of aggression / timers etc. Some things are very old, IE the counters to RRing NPCs till they would kill an NPC scrammed player piloted neutral ship. Well, from what i've seen in PvE logout != disconnect. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I mission for lots of hours a week, do you think I have not seen what frigs do? They CAN drop scram. Whether it's another ship putting up the web (same name, can't demonstrate it's the same) or it's the one who previously had scram up, does not change the result. Then their orbit is close to scram range (7500 for some npc frigs) and from time to time they move out of it. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Eve-search for NOIR's "tutorial"? Will do. Didn't see it.
Gunnanmon Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.03.10 11:38:00 - [54] Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.03.10 11:40:00 - [55] Quote: Then it's a bug which needs to be tracked down and fixed, eliminating its impact by mechanics which will influence tons of other situations is bad idea. They can remove this bug, but CCP (wisely, I am a programmer in RL too and see this to often) cannot be sure they removed all of the sources of crash and thus they play on the prudent side. Quote: Well, from what i've seen in PvE logout != disconnect But here comes the catch, you can always disconnect by plugging the cable be it because it's genuine DC or not. So, how would the game discern a malicious DC vs a "legit" one? CCP conservatively chose to consider all DCs as legit by default, because this saves them tons of customer care and petitions. What do you offer in trade? That you put a thank you CCP on a killboard? Quote: Then their orbit is close to scram range (7500 for some npc frigs) and from time to time they move out of it. How it's achieved is not my concern, it happens even when I stand still (got the tank for it for several missions: less wrecks spread, quicker salvaging). - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Knight Phaeton 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2010.03.10 12:26:00 - [56] Signed
fnvent The Deliberate Forces	Posted - 2010.03.10 14:16:00 - [57] 1 no 2 and 3 signed
Holy Cheater Monks of War DarkSide.	Posted - 2010.03.10 14:22:00 - [58] signed for warp-logoff. The first two are bad only for campers. The first is bad only within lowsec and when you do not have enough damage. And I'm not agreed with the idea to stimulate some idiotic camping.
Red Raider Caldari Airbourne Demons DeMoN's N AnGeL's	Posted - 2010.03.10 16:23:00 - [59] Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 10/03/2010 07:05:00 Originally by: Red Raider I knew when I posted this that someone wouldn't know that LD means link dead. This is caused by the server and there is nothing you can do about it. So NOT flying into situations where you go LD is not an option. So essentially you say that eve cluster disconnects you while keeping other players in the same/nearby system on-line? Nah, never've been in such situation. You have never had a disconnect while zoning? Docked in jita 23/7?
Kilostream Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.10 17:19:00 - [60] Logoffski's are a pain in the arse, to be sure, and it'd be nice to eliminate them. However, legit disconnects happen all the time - and whilst this is the case I wouldn't support changing the game mechanic - better that a hundred guilty men go free than one innocent man gets punished. Besides if the problem were that severe there'd hardly be any kills in New Eden - a brief perusal of the various killboards available tells me that's not the case.



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