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[Exploit] FIX THE DAMN aggro-, double- and warp-logoff EXPLOITS!

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Azumo Zombie Clowns from Outer Space	Posted - 2010.03.12 17:10:00 - [91] /signed
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.03.12 21:55:00 - [92] Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 12/03/2010 21:59:46 Okay boys and girls, i've re-read whole thread and noticed that almost everyone who opposes these changes uses 'what happens if i get real disconnect' argument, so let's look a bit deeper into it. When you get disconnected, server stops getting data from client; to make sure that connection is really lost it waits for 30 or 60 seconds before making emergency warp-off, and only after that moment you're considered as logged off (opposed to insta-logoff using ctrl-q). --- 1. You logoff and after that someone places aggro on you - but you will still disappear after 1 minute. There're really 2 cases in this single point: 1.1. after jumping into some system through gate and 1.2. all others. Major difference is 45-60 seconds of cloaked state which provides you total invulnerability after jumping into some gate. 1.1. If you've got legit disconnect in gate cloak - most likely you'll be able to avoid aggro and if you have enough tank your ship will vanish in 1 minute. In this case suggested mechanics change will affect you in some edge cases. But personally i think number of 1.1.1. legit disconnects in fat ships which can survive camp is absolute minority when compared to 1.1.2 number of legit disconnects in cases where your ship won't be able to tank campers (you'll die with 1 minute aggro the same way you'd die with 15 minutes aggro) plus number of forced logouts which are done just to keep your ship 'alive' 1.2. There're numerous situations, but let's take some fat ship in the belt, say, Orca and group of Hulks. They noticed few interceptors en-route to their belt and have no time to align and warp to POS (at least that's true for Orca). They log off right when interceptors land into their belt, and if gang doesn't have enough DPS arriving instantly after interceptor to the belt - most of miner guys will survive. If they had real disconnect - they'd be aggroed before server issues log off after time out is reached. In this case, it won't help players which got really disconnected. --- 2. You logoff, login, logoff, login - and appear on a spot not where you was or where you're travelling previously. That's pretty obvious that it's impossible to make this trick (especially multiple times) without insta-logoff, which is not the case with real disconnect where time out should expire before actual logoff. --- 3. You click warp to and instantly logoff - no one can scramble you or even lock you. Same. If you click warp and hit log off - this trick works. If you click warp and get disconnected - you will be aggroed and killed. Sooo, is 'what happens if i get real disconnect' argument that strong? I don't think so, really :P
Jeremey Glittering Dust	Posted - 2010.03.12 22:33:00 - [93] Originally by: Kadesh Priestess When you get disconnected, server stops getting data from client; to make sure that connection is really lost it waits for 30 or 60 seconds before making emergency warp-off, and only after that moment you're considered as logged off (opposed to insta-logoff using ctrl-q). Everything you wrote in your post is quite right, but just small remark: it seems that Eve uses TCP/IP (and not asynchronous UDP), so server doesn't literally waits for client data - it's just notified when TCP/IP connection is timed out (as I can say from my programming experience without touching the game itself, of course). From practical standpoint we can say that during "legit" disconnect (not closing game client by ctrl-q) the server just waits 30-60 seconds for client data.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.03.12 23:29:00 - [94] Step 1: Log in and get into a fight Step 2: Pull the Ethernet Cable out of your computer Step 3: Rinse and repeat. Weak argument my ass... Server will never be able to discern the difference between a logoffski and a disconnect. Stop theorizing and talking about things you know nothing about people. Yes its a problem... but the suggested solutions will cause more harm than you ever thought possible. Just wait until it happens to you... I guarantee you will be first one to scream at CCP. It only takes one incident... just one. PS: and before you flame me note I supported this proposal.. so shove that up your missile tube. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.12 23:50:00 - [95] Anyone who had legitimate disconnect during battle (as I have) knows that the current mechanism doesn't benefit you at all. You fight, you disconnect, you log back in 30 seconds later - your ship is dead. Or you fight, you disconnect, by some miracle you weren't scrambled, you warp to safe, you log back in 30 seconds later, warp back into enemy gang, weakened, and probably die. Or you fight, you disconnect, you can't log back in cause of serious internet problems, but by some miracle your ship wasn't scrambled. So the enemy probes you down in 2-5 minutes and you die anyway. The only way to get any benefit from this is to exploit the system purposely.
Jeremey Glittering Dust	Posted - 2010.03.12 23:51:00 - [96] Edited by: Jeremey on 12/03/2010 23:53:21 Edited by: Jeremey on 12/03/2010 23:51:44 Originally by: Drake Draconis Step 1: Log in and get into a fight Step 2: Pull the Ethernet Cable out of your computer Step 3: Rinse and repeat. Weak argument my ass... Server will never be able to discern the difference between a logoffski and a disconnect. Have you read what others wrote here? We talking about that if server (or devs) cannot descern between legitimate logoff and cutting your ethernet cable, then logoff should not give advantages in/during pvp. Also, if logoff happened not during pvp (so player doesn't have 15 minute aggro timer), proposed changes will have no effect on him. Originally by: Drake Draconis Yes its a problem... but the suggested solutions will cause more harm than you ever thought possible. What harm exactly fixing these bugs will cause? Please be more specific when making such statements. Originally by: Drake Draconis Just wait until it happens to you... I guarantee you will be first one to scream at CCP. It only takes one incident... just one. No, I think it is fair that if you've disconnected in the middle in the fight - you die (if enemy have scrambled and shooting you with enough dps). Originally by: Ephemeron Anyone who had legitimate disconnect during battle (as I have) knows that the current mechanism doesn't benefit you at all. You fight, you disconnect, you log back in 30 seconds later - your ship is dead. Or you fight, you disconnect, by some miracle you weren't scrambled, you warp to safe, you log back in 30 seconds later, warp back into enemy gang, weakened, and probably die. Or you fight, you disconnect, you can't log back in cause of serious internet problems, but by some miracle your ship wasn't scrambled. So the enemy probes you down in 2-5 minutes and you die anyway. The only way to get any benefit from this is to exploit the system purposely. Thank you for clarification, that is exactly about what I'm talking about too.
Abyss Wyrm Caldari Starbridge Brotherhood of Starbridge	Posted - 2010.03.13 00:33:00 - [97] I could partly aggre only on 3rd matter. Though as long this... feature will exist, i will use it myself. But 3rd thing is rly kind a bug, as for 1st and 2nd, its a normal game feature. Gather more DDs to kill your target in 1 minute, and dont let them go (unless they will use 3rd feature/bug) so double logoff/login wouldnt matter at all. You cant just ask to remove every possible feature in the game thet let ppl escape from the grasp of agressors. Basicly you ask to make game simplier for you (and your folks may be), and thats wrong. So as i only partly agree about 3rd matter, no my support here. My standing service is available now again, check this link.
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.13 01:38:00 - [98] Quote: You cant just ask to remove every possible feature in the game thet let ppl escape from the grasp of agressors. Basicly you ask to make game simplier for you (and your folks may be), and thats wrong. I'm not pro-blob. I don't argue to change log off mechanics just so the big blobs can kill more people. If you are seriously interested in giving people more chances of escape from gate campers and blobbers, we should undo the Great Nano Nerf - when people had more speed and agility they could escape bad situations without resorting to LAN cable pulling. The nano nerf was just as retarded as current log off mechanics. The fact that CCP are just fine with this proves they cannot be trusted to make good judgment on game design. We have to force them into doing the right thing, for the good of EVE community as a whole rather than select individuals.
Abyss Wyrm Caldari Starbridge Brotherhood of Starbridge	Posted - 2010.03.13 02:56:00 - [99] Originally by: Ephemeron Quote: You cant just ask to remove every possible feature in the game thet let ppl escape from the grasp of agressors. Basicly you ask to make game simplier for you (and your folks may be), and thats wrong. I'm not pro-blob. I don't argue to change log off mechanics just so the big blobs can kill more people. If you are seriously interested in giving people more chances of escape from gate campers and blobbers, we should undo the Great Nano Nerf - when people had more speed and agility they could escape bad situations without resorting to LAN cable pulling. The nano nerf was just as retarded as current log off mechanics. The fact that CCP are just fine with this proves they cannot be trusted to make good judgment on game design. We have to force them into doing the right thing, for the good of EVE community as a whole rather than select individuals. Smaller ships are still fast and agile enough to escape most of gate camps in low. As for heavier. There is still mwd+cloak feature, there is still warpstabs, there is still ECM-bursts. A lot of ways still out there to escape gatecamps in low even without using buggy warp+logoff feature. Not even mentioning comlitely safe carrier's logistics. My standing service is available now again, check this link.
Omega Flames Caldari Last Resort Inn SYSTEM SHOCK INITIATIVE	Posted - 2010.03.13 03:18:00 - [100] Originally by: De'Veldrin As soon as you tell me how to tell from the server's perspective the difference between me unplugging my network cable and my internet going down, sure. I mean sure, we can trap for CTRL-Q or closing the application - of course if I open task manager and just terminate the process none of that code will fire either, so... Not supported from me either because she's right there is no way to tell if I terminated the process/ unplugged the network cable from an actual unintentional dc. The entire point of terminating a process is for it to immediately cease functioning which means its not going to send any commands back to CCP, it's simply going to drop all contact just like a dc would. Now with a ctrl-q yes you could have that send signals because the program would still be running until the ctrl-q command was finished and implementing a message sent to CCP saying ctrl-q command was used to log off would work but the other methods are still useable. Originally by: Jeremey When you terminate your process or press Ctrl-Q, all tcp/udp sockets are closed and server notified about that immediately (in case of udp, by special command game sends). Also, no single one of these exploits' fixes requires server to make such distinction. Care to explain exactly how a fix could be implemented that the server would not need to be informed of how you logged off? cause I've never heard of one before. ------------------------- "Forsys > WAR Forsys > HUH Forsys > WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR Harry Sunday > loot Forsys > touchT"

Jeremey Glittering Dust	Posted - 2010.03.13 06:10:00 - [101] Edited by: Jeremey on 13/03/2010 06:11:42 Originally by: Abyss Wyrm You cant just ask to remove every possible feature in the game thet let ppl escape from the grasp of agressors. Escaping the gatecamp with closing game client is not a game feature - it's undocumented outgame mechanics, totally unintended by devs. Escaping the bubbled POS by double-logoffing is not intended game feature too - at least because devs are already fixed it. Originally by: Abyss Wyrm Basicly you ask to make game simplier for you (and your folks may be), and thats wrong. The motivation of my statements have no influence on their rightesnousness or usefulness. So please refrain from such demagogy.
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.03.13 06:12:00 - [102] Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 13/03/2010 06:15:22 Originally by: Drake Draconis Weak argument my ass... Server will never be able to discern the difference between a logoffski and a disconnect. I had disconnects during warping into camp and i know what i'm talking about. Originally by: Drake Draconis Just wait until it happens to you... I guarantee you will be first one to scream at CCP. I am solo pvper and had numerous losses due to disconnects. I never screamed at CCP - please tell me what i'm doing wrong. Originally by: Abyss Wyrm Gather more DDs to kill your target in 1 minute, and dont let them go (unless they will use 3rd feature/bug) so double logoff/login wouldnt matter at all. Exactly. You can counter each of the 'features' by bringing more ships just to counter exploits. Ships to aggro you on the other side during warp-in and separate team which will pursue you after warp-logoff trick, dedicated probers to catch logoff-login-logoff-login jerks, bringing more dps to kill you in 1 minute without aggro. It's not really possible to camp gate with small team without letting guys (who know these tricks) escape. Do you really want eve to become more blobbish? Originally by: Omega Flames Not supported from me either because she's right there is no way to tell if I terminated the process/ unplugged the network cable from an actual unintentional dc. The entire point of terminating a process is for it to immediately cease functioning which means its not going to send any commands back to CCP, it's simply going to drop all contact just like a dc would. Now with a ctrl-q yes you could have that send signals because the program would still be running until the ctrl-q command was finished and implementing a message sent to CCP saying ctrl-q command was used to log off would work but the other methods are still useable. Oh come on dude. Did you read my post on top of this page? Care to test any of its points and say 'yes, fixing this point will affect those who had legit disconnect'?
Jeremey Glittering Dust	Posted - 2010.03.13 06:18:00 - [103] Originally by: Omega Flames Not supported from me either because she's right there is no way to tell if I terminated the process/ unplugged the network cable from an actual unintentional dc. And so what? How inability to distinguish between legitimate disconnect and unplugging the cable prevents from fixing described bugs?
Slade Hoo Corpse Collection Point	Posted - 2010.03.13 08:13:00 - [104] ------ Make Lowsec useful! Vote in the CSM-Forum!
Ramzes Razares Caldari Fremen Sietch DarkSide.	Posted - 2010.03.13 12:12:00 - [105] +1, fix this
Dungheap Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.03.13 19:15:00 - [106] Originally by: Jeremey Here they are: 1) You logoff and after that someone places aggro on you - but you will still disappear after 1 minute. 2) You logoff, login, logoff, login - and appear on a spot not where you was or where you're travelling previously. 3) You click warp to and instantly logoff - no one can scramble you or even lock you. 1. no. no aggro after you log off without aggro. way too exploitable and unfair to those that wait out aggro timers and log. wouldn't be that big of an issue except for #2. 2. WAS ACTUALLY FIXED A WHILE BACK YOU WOULD WARP BACK TO ORIGINAL LOG-OFF SPOT NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU RELOGGED. BROKEN GAME MECHANIC. 3. you can't point or lock someone in warp. not sure how this works when combined with logging off, heard it was ruled an exploit. can't comment on this one... supported to fix #2 as it was already implemented once and broken in a subsequent patch.
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.03.13 19:18:00 - [107] Originally by: Dungheap 3. you can't point or lock someone in warp. not sure how this works when combined with logging off, heard it was ruled an exploit. can't comment on this one... You instantly become 'invulnerable' after hitting ctrl-q - others can't lock you.
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.13 23:03:00 - [108] Originally by: Dungheap 1. no. no aggro after you log off without aggro. way too exploitable and unfair to those that wait out aggro timers and log. wouldn't be that big of an issue except for #2. And what do you call people who log off literally 1-3 seconds before they get aggro? The current mechanic is much, much more exploitable than the potential exploit you worry about. So even if changing it wouldn't solve all problem, it would make situation at least 10 times better
Bilaz Fremen Sietch DarkSide.	Posted - 2010.03.15 10:05:00 - [109] Edited by: Bilaz on 15/03/2010 10:05:52 Thats no exploits afaik, but bad mechanic and only thouse who logoff on purpuse get benefits from it - since if you really have problems with connection - good chances are that eve-server would go on like you still in game, or close client after you engaged in combat. The way i see it fixed - after character gets logged off (no matter for real or ctrl-q) for 10 seconds ship stoppes any warp/moving related activites (or waits for warp to end (if speed > 0.1 au per second) and then kickes 10 second timer on) and can be agressed - after that - the usual: emerg. warp and 1 or 15 minute timer depending on agr. state.
irion felpamy HellJumpers Corp Indecisive Certainty	Posted - 2010.03.15 13:18:00 - [110] To often and easily abused to be left in TBFH.

Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.03.15 13:42:00 - [111] Quote: The way i see it fixed - after character gets logged off (no matter for real or ctrl-q) for 10 seconds ship stoppes any warp/moving related activites (or waits for warp to end (if speed > 0.1 au per second) and then kickes 10 second timer on) and can be agressed - after that - the usual: emerg. warp and 1 or 15 minute timer depending on agr. state. This would not work against those CTRL-Qing right after warp in and would also require a change to PvE scrambling mechanics and would make warp-in-aggro missions easily exploited / defeated. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Dark Rai	Posted - 2010.03.15 20:20:00 - [112] I do not sign it, Jeremey why the hell did you tell everyone about these exploits? Why? You think it`ll help? And I say no it wont. Before that only rare golem or whatever would use these things to get out of the camp, but now you`ve opened so many people`s eyes on it, ene everyone, EVERYONE uses this crap now. Have you lost your mind man? Or its just cuz you SOMETIMES fail to kill some sweetass carebear`s ship? Well not you wont able to kill more than that . /NOT signed Imho this thread should not exist, devs plz delete it as it tells everyone about the exploits. Before that about 200 people were useing them not every single one uses em omgwtfbbq... Yeah, big thx Jeremey, big thx man. I was fine about these exploits although i never used them myself, and i was fine when sometimes my victims use them, because it were only rare occasions.
Dark Rai	Posted - 2010.03.15 22:31:00 - [113] And fixing this will deny making deep spots :(( that would be very sad
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.03.16 12:03:00 - [114] Originally by: Dark Rai He posted this crap on Russian community forums (eve-ru.com) as well, and you now what? Few people support him. Only few. Lie. There're almost twice more votes for fixing these exploits than total number of supports in this thread.
Hentuku	Posted - 2010.03.16 12:48:00 - [115] /signed. Fix this! Its insane that you can escape death in this way. Eve is supposed to be harsh (apparently). Seems most people are unaware of this get out of jail free card feature. Makes a mockery of the game tbh. If your internet connection sucks so bad then don't undock in anything you can't afford to lose. I hate losing something as much as the next guy, but this is just a farce.
Foxlike	Posted - 2010.03.16 13:15:00 - [116] Not support. It wasn't an exploit for more than 2 years, why it should be now? It's the same type mechanics as cloaked (macro)hunters - so it's should be fixed both or neither.
sanjar	Posted - 2010.03.16 13:43:00 - [117] Originally by: Dark Rai Edited by: Dark Rai on 16/03/2010 05:33:08 He posted this crap on Russian community forums (eve-ru.com) as well, and you now what? Few people support him. Only few. Period. That's the truth. And gentlemen, please don't pay much attention to this bunch of low-sec pirates. All the rest of russian community, i'm glad to represent, is perfectly satisfied with width and flexibility of the features, eve-online offers to it's subscribers. the following is the result of poll that took place in a central russian-community resource: 81 ppl would like those features to be eliminated 160 ppl would like those features to be kept intact. PS. I beg a pardon, gents, but most probably i wouldn't be able to reply you. I can't read english. I can only write messages in english.
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.03.16 14:44:00 - [118] Originally by: sanjar Originally by: Dark Rai Edited by: Dark Rai on 16/03/2010 05:33:08 He posted this crap on Russian community forums (eve-ru.com) as well, and you now what? Few people support him. Only few. Period. That's the truth. Well, if 80+ is few - then yes, it's the truth :P Originally by: sanjar And gentlemen, please don't pay much attention to this bunch of low-sec pirates. All the rest of russian community, i'm glad to represent, is perfectly satisfied with width and flexibility of the features, eve-online offers to it's subscribers. Yea, availability of exploits is flexibility of the features. Great. Originally by: sanjar the following is the result of poll that took place in a central russian-community resource: 81 ppl would like those features to be eliminated 160 ppl would like those features to be kept intact. It's a shame that you don't get that 3rd option "no, i'm DarkSide member and feel butthurt" isn't the same as "no". Uniting them into one single option and summing number of votes is bad idea, mkay?
Apulaz	Posted - 2010.03.16 22:31:00 - [119] I Agree. Hate exploits and want them to be fixed.
Red Raider Caldari Airbourne Demons DeMoN's N AnGeL's	Posted - 2010.03.16 22:36:00 - [120] Originally by: Jeremey Edited by: Jeremey on 11/03/2010 22:51:47 Originally by: Red Raider So when a noob in a frigate jumps into his level 1 mission and doesn't get killed because of a legitimate disco it's because this rule is in place due to the fact that a huge majority of paying eve customers face this issue every day. What saves the noob is 2 minute aggro from NPC. No one here proposed any changes to that. Also no one here proposed to remove emergency warp or making ships stay for more than 1 or 2 minute if they don't have aggro. If you don't know that "player" aggro and "npc" aggro are different things with different timers that are triggered differently, then go learn basic game mechanics before posting such posts. If that is the case than I am all for it. I was unaware that PVP timers and NPC timers were different and honestly shocked that PVP timers are shorter since I assume this tactic is used almost entirely by the PVP crowd and not the NPC crowd. As for that being basic game mechanics you are kidding yourself. Unless you are actively trying to figure it out instead of just dealing with the occasional disco you are never going to know the difference between the two without combing some mind numbing PVP guide to ganking on some fanboy epeen website that 3/4 of the population could care less about.



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