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The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
494
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Posted - 2011.09.21 07:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
I wrote a thing. It ends differently than you might expect! Go read it. |
Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
113
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Posted - 2011.09.21 08:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
It's a good and well written article. Nothing new for us forum addicts, but good summary about the events. Well done :)
Forum fix for firefox and chrome
Get working images and colored text
Classic forum style 2.25final |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
20
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Posted - 2011.09.21 08:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
ALL HAIL
Honourable space pilot and anti-pirate. |
The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
494
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Posted - 2011.09.21 08:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
I should hope that the bit where I vehemently defend my "Defense of Incarna" pisses /some/ people off. :( |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
20
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Posted - 2011.09.21 08:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
I bet the part where you banned HandofSatan really pissed somebody off
...and made like 20 other people really, really vindictively satisfied.
Honourable space pilot and anti-pirate. |
The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
494
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Posted - 2011.09.21 08:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote:I bet the part where you banned HandofSatan really pissed somebody off
...and made like 20 other people really, really vindictively satisfied.
Alas, since he hides behind anonymity, he cannot voice his dissent or cry for succor~
|
The Apostle
The Black Priests
32
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Posted - 2011.09.21 08:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
You followed the bleating sheep Mittens instead of leading. End of story.
Answer this? Will the next CSM be Corporate America or RMT Russia?
I hope it's the latter. They LEAD......
Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. |
seany1212
The Scowling Men
The Laughing Men
3
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Posted - 2011.09.21 08:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
As has been said it is a brilliant arguement and a pleasure to read, it sums up perfectly what incarna was, and is, and i hope that the final paragraph lives up to what is written and faith can be returned to CCP once again  |
Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
106
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Posted - 2011.09.21 08:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
This is a terrible post and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Edit: I always agreed with your statements regarding Incarna and was enthousiastic about the concept behind it.
however I became sceptical about the whole thing when it seemed that CCP was backingtracking the release and releasing only 1/4th of the single player experience. I forsaw a long wait for real functionality and was even more dissapointed with what we got. Lets hope they fix it (and we get an actual pod chamber)
-
[img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img]
[yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |
Flynn Fetladral
Royal Order of Security Specialists
454
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Posted - 2011.09.21 08:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
Always knew you was a 'Fan Boy' in secret. I totally agree. Incarna will be good for EVE, when they roll it out in full and it's done right and respects the FiS part of the game which, until 2009 was still CCP's prerogative. Good design should be about 'carrot'. Features within WiS that make you want to leave your pod and venture forth, not 'stick'. Forcing people to get out of their ships to look at rusting red walls and nothing else of value to players was a bad choice indeed.
When CCP showed off the ideas for the establishments a few years ago, the mini-games and stuff it almost reminded me of Knights of the Old Republic or something, I was totally blown away, and have been excited by the idea of other stuff to do within EVE Online when I'm not flying in space.
I'm glad to finally see things happening now, which IMHO should of been in place from the begging. Your ship hanger as a means to transgress between in station services and FiS, the middle ground. When WiS has something to offer, people will use it. People will buy stuff off the NeX store, but only when there is tangible content on offer that enhances and respects the FiS aspect of the game.
My mother was a thukker, my father was an elderberry! - @flynnfetladral on Twitter! |
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Louis deGuerre
Malevolence.
16
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Posted - 2011.09.21 08:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
Not enough chest beating.
FIRE FRIENDSHIP TORPEDOES ! |
Alina Wize
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
9
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Posted - 2011.09.21 08:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
Dear Leader |
Bane Loppknow
Pel Industries
0
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Posted - 2011.09.21 09:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
Incarna was an expansion? I thought it was just a door. |
mkint
22
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Posted - 2011.09.21 09:14:00 -
[14] - Quote
TL;DR - "The ass kissing I did pre-Incarna in no way reflects a complete inability to recognize CCP's patterns of failure. Whatever I say I'm right. Period. Even when I'm wrong." |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
281
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Posted - 2011.09.21 09:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
While the whitewashing of your holy image of always being right is reprehensible, I do support and argued the same view of Incarna sans CCP Fail prior to launch.
84,000 AUR ($420) spent on NeX store for Troll and Profit. |
Tuggboat
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2011.09.21 09:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
The door is only a symbol, how we see it is up to us. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
213
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Posted - 2011.09.21 09:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
No, it ends pretty much how I expected. In summary you took 3 pages to say
"OK so I was wrong about Incarna because I trusted CCP to deliver what they said they would and not be dumb, but at least the Winter expansion will be good because I trust CCP to deliver what they say they will and not be dumb".
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Vyl Vit
Cambio Enterprises
40
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Posted - 2011.09.21 09:46:00 -
[18] - Quote
I so wanted to see some content there. It was packaged so beautifully. All the right hip jargon, coming from BoB's replacement, Goon Quafe. But, it's what we in the business call a "fluff piece." With the wave of a keyboard swaths of legitimate critique are swept away with glittering generality; the "main points" crafted as friendly little strawmen that a child could wrestle to the ground.
However (comma) the well-considered, technical issues voiced so eloquently in forum posts (par for the course) are magically absent, and so may be assumed will be unaddressed. (Namely, fix what you have before you dive into something new.) These issues comprise a majority of the significant content during the uproar. Of course some Goon Quafe cheerleaders swamped the boards to create a nice target for Mitt to shoot down. (A PR routine I haven't seen since Marcos in the PI.)
One profound quote to illustrate: "...CCP listens to only two masters: their subscription numbers and the media...." In other words, how many customers we have (what business doesn't?) and our free advertising turning into mass negative criticism. Yes, profound unless you know the business of business. No tempest. No teapot.
Another quote of note: "...the fact that Torfi has announced a checkbox to allow pilots to never leave their ships is an extremely significant (and welcomed) about-face...." Characterizing this as something that took effort, was a bone tossed our way much to our satisfaction, and not as an example of how distorted is the thinking of the management calls into question the veracity of the author himself (not for the first time.)
In short. It was an ad, and we can assume, a free ad. I can't say I'm disappointed, though, considering the source.
To her it doesn't matter much.-á It's chasms have been leapt, and she leans upon the skepticism of her chosen fate. |
Spanking Monkeys
ZC Industries
1
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Posted - 2011.09.21 09:50:00 -
[19] - Quote
The Mittani wrote:I should hope that the bit where I vehemently defend my "Defense of Incarna" pisses /some/ people off. :(
while i hate incarna, your allowed any view you like.
why do you care if you **** people off? isnt the point of pissing people off showing that you dont care? |
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
7
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Posted - 2011.09.21 10:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
Flynn Fetladral wrote: Good design should be about 'carrot'. Features within WiS that make you want to leave your pod and venture forth, not 'stick'. Forcing people to get out of their ships to look at rusting red walls and nothing else of value to players was a bad choice indeed.
Couldnt have put it better myself.... you earnt yourself a 'like'
Eve is supposed to be a sandbox, where we decide how to play our game through choices and a multitude of options.... Incarna was about forcing us down one route... not what Eve should be at all.
Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. |
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
245
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Posted - 2011.09.21 10:20:00 -
[21] - Quote
I found the article to be insipid and pointless.
Much like Incarna, in fact.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Meryl SinGarda
Homeworld Republic
United Homeworlds
177
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Posted - 2011.09.21 10:25:00 -
[22] - Quote
Go away Mittani.
Fly Safe, Die Hard |
Garia666
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
1
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Posted - 2011.09.21 10:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
i know something you should write.... |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
57
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Posted - 2011.09.21 10:28:00 -
[24] - Quote
THE END IS NIGH!! NIGH!!
Disclaimer: I would write that in YELLOW H1 Font if I could. |
The Apostle
The Black Priests
32
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Posted - 2011.09.21 10:33:00 -
[25] - Quote
Miilla wrote:THE END IS NIGH!! NIGH!!
Disclaimer: I would write that in YELLOW H1 Font if I could.
You STILL here?
I could bundle you same as Mittani.
1) You speak heaps and do nothing.
2) The whole issue was crap and bought shame on Eve players, the game and CCP.
3) And both of you think you're cool as a result.
gtfo. both of you.
Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. |
Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
113
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Posted - 2011.09.21 10:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
Miilla wrote:THE END IS NIGH!! NIGH!!
Disclaimer: I would write that in YELLOW H1 Font if I could.
Don't remind the forum team about downsides of reintroducing missing BBcode .)
Forum fix for firefox and chrome
Get working images and colored text
Classic forum style 2.25final |
Sister Bliss
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
10
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Posted - 2011.09.21 11:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
This post is not only full of contradiction but also dangerous.
The statement and sentiment for much of the argument; "Much of the criticism of Incarna vanishes if there had been a successful deployment." illustrates a poor and superficial grasp of the underlying issues.
Incarna would be no more successful had it been successfully deployed; whatever that means. 4 more rooms, a corridor to link them and a bar to show off your NeX items?
The rage from Incarna was not specifically and solely rage at Incarna. This is an important point to understand.
Players who had previously raged at CCP when the :18 months: investment plan was revealed for development which had nothing to do with FiS were dutifully ignored by CCP. Resigned in defeat they sat and waited for Incarna, which they secretly feared was going to be crap, but they were willing to keep an open mind and be pleasantly surprised. It may not be content they had asked for, but perhaps CCP would surprise and delight them and the world would not be so bad (they might even enjoy the out of pod experience).
Instead, Incarna has turned out to be as poor an investment as everyone had predicted. Untold thousands had predicted it so and warned CCP. There is no substance to Incarna and adding more rooms or vanity items isn't going to fix that anytime soon.
Let's be clear, I don't think anyone would mind Incarna (there are clearly those who like the immersion factor of it) if it had been delivered as part of a fine FiS expansion. The issue however is that CCP have invested multiple years of resources solely into Incarna at the expense of everything else. Even the forums have had more investment than FiS over the past 18 months (and still I have to re-type this post because of forum bugs).
To put things into perspective, I would proffer that Incarna has taken at least 3-4 times the resources to develop compared to Apocrypha. Now, if you ask players (as buggy as Apocrypha was); would you like an expansion 3-4 times the size and content of Apocrypha, or would you like a room for your avatar with ridiculous vanity stuff in a shop? The answer should be obvious.
The issue is about balance of priorities, and CCP have gotten this wrong by orders of magnitude and it has taken plummeting subscriptions to only start to rectify this, not the wisdom, foresight and vision of the product owner/lead designer (bless your souls for being so out of touch).
What is dangerous is the encouragement your post seems to be suggesting to CCP. As head of the CSM this is very, very worrying to me. You can't seem to decide whether "some within CCP have lost touch with their core focus (making a game about spaceships for people who love spaceships)" or "The release of Incarna and later Dust 514 is likely to make EVEGÇÖs subscriber base and revenue generation explode".
A bad strategy (or rather, roadmap) with an improved delivery execution is still a bad strategy. Picking out the following excerpts from your post, I am not sure whether you are genuinely trolling or not;
* Much of the criticism of Incarna vanishes if there had been a successful deployment.
* we were supposed to have four racial CaptainGÇÖs Quarters and Establishments
* The cries of GÇ£Give us things to do, not things to wearGÇ¥ also goes away
* I suspect that we wouldnGÇÖt have had nearly the level of rage over Incarna if the Caldari CQ was the first to be released
* Theoretically, IncarnaGÇÖs primary benefit is an improvement to the New Player Experience
* The prices are too high, thereGÇÖs no place to show off oneGÇÖs GÇÿvirtual goodsGÇÖ
* since 2003 we have seen some truly outstanding expansions and ideas from the company
In the long-term, WiS and Incarna has great promise and could offer untold opportunities for creative ideas to expand the game. However at the moment, the game is so horrendously broken that investment into Incarna at this stage seems (is) utter folly. Plummeting subscriber numbers, player discontent and boredom has nothing to do with a poor Incarna implementation. There are fundamental issues which need serious (1-2 years) investment; sovereignty, ship balance, 0.0 risk/reward incentive, botting being the key ones. When the game mechanics can support the creativity and ingenuity that the player community can weave, then CCP will have ample opportunity to invest in other directions.
I was happy to see your recent takeup of the FiS torch (admittedly a year or two behind the curve). Reading this post, I'm not sure you actually 'get it' though. You can't be all things to all men. In this post it seems as if you're trying to be.
Ps. Incarna may be appealing to new players but what is more damning is long-term players and veterans telling them (directly/indirectly) not to bother. "Welcome young adventurer, your ultimate quest is to slay the evi dragon!". Except when you get to the end, there is no dragon, just a bucket of **** to pour on your head. |
The Apostle
The Black Priests
35
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Posted - 2011.09.21 12:21:00 -
[28] - Quote
Was that WoT from Mitens sister?
Family trait?
Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. |
Zey Nadar
Unknown Soldiers
Test Friends Please Ignore
3
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Posted - 2011.09.21 12:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
I hate to say this, but it was a decently thought-out and well written article.
@sister bliss: I dont agree with you. What Mittens said is correct, the problem wasn't the idea of incarna itself, rather than the fact that CCP couldn't deliver. And another thing is that at least I personally got tired of waiting solutions to the nullsec problems of massing wealth and supercaps. Ive been very negative ever since ccp nerfed anomalies instead of moon income, making sure that strong get stronger and weak get weaker. And this was supposed to ensure that there is going to be change and fluctuation in nullsec power balance?  Part of my dissatisfaction with incarna was that we didnt get any solutions to those problems, we just got a piece of a small carrot and lots of promises.
In regards of incarna release I believe that the crux of many problems is the technological hurdle that CCP built for themselves. I understand perfectly that they have spent so much time trying to make their carbon technology thing work, so it could be used in their new games like WoD. I have no problems with the allocation of their resources. However, things are not gonna go well if the only solution is to wait couple years so people have better graphic cards.. Knowing what the problem is isn't going to make me any happier.
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Sister Bliss
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
17
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Posted - 2011.09.21 12:54:00 -
[30] - Quote
Zey Nadar wrote:I hate to say this, but it was a decently thought-out and well written article.
@sister bliss: I dont agree with you. What Mittens said is correct, the problem wasn't the idea of incarna itself, rather than the fact that CCP couldn't deliver.
What exactly is the idea of Incarna and what have they not delivered? 3 additional rooms and a bazaar?
Zey Nadar wrote:And another thing is that at least I personally got tired of waiting solutions to the nullsec problems of massing wealth and supercaps. Ive been very negative ever since ccp nerfed anomalies instead of moon income, making sure that strong get stronger and weak get weaker. And this was supposed to ensure that there is going to be change and fluctuation in nullsec power balance? Part of my dissatisfaction with incarna was that we didnt get any solutions to those problems, we just got a piece of a small carrot and lots of promises.
I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here because those are the issues I am stating need addressing as a priority for CCP. So you're disagreeing with me agreeing with you :baffled:.
Zey Nadar wrote:In regards of incarna release I believe that the crux of many problems is the technological hurdle that CCP built for themselves. I understand perfectly that they have spent so much time trying to make their carbon technology thing work, so it could be used in their new games like WoD. I have no problems with the allocation of their resources. However, things are not gonna go well if the only solution is to wait couple years so people have better graphic cards.. Knowing what the problem is isn't going to make me any happier.
I have no insight into how many people cannot run Incarna (enabled/disabled), however if it is a significant number then yes that is a major issue. I'm not denying that.
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