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Spoon Thumb Mamaleek	Posted - 2010.03.11 06:00:00 - [61] Originally by: Sapphrine Blue on Blue - do nothing This is the problem one. When some time after said blue on blue, both blues turn up to assist you and start fighting each other instead. No one would operate an open-to-neutrals policy if the very neutrals they want to attract can be shot down by another group (reds aside) without reprocussion. The neutrals simply won't turn up next time. The implication is the space ends up somewhat like the rest of 0.0. As for NRDS, it'd just mean anyone running it would simply be second to start shooting
Tom Hanks The Inf1dels	Posted - 2010.03.11 06:07:00 - [62] How does the old Amarrian scripture go? Whatsoever a pompous, arrogant, holier than thou, s****sucking alliance of bottom feeders, sows, they shall reap. CVA enjoyed bullying people in their space who wouldnt suck up to their brand of kool aid and declaring them 'terrorists' Now -A- has come to town and they are a lot bigger and a lot badder and can out blob the CVA (CVA's favorite tactic of course) and cleansed providence of your cancer. Good riddance to you lot of arrogant self exalting filth. After much growth and reflection over the years I now share the ideas of Jade Constantine and Star Fraction. All rights and powers come from the individual, not some empire, not some corporation, not an alliance. And it is up to each man or woman to recognize this, take responsibility for their own thoughts, actions, property, and safety. God bless the free minded and those with the courage to blaze their own path through the galaxy, and a curse to those too cowardly to do anything but feed on the rotten milk that comes from the tit of a dying empire and dying religion. Caldari Racial Purity
Chav Queen State Protectorate	Posted - 2010.03.11 06:33:00 - [63] So what your really saying is ,you lived in Providance under the NRDS umbrella for 2 years enjoyed your time but then became bored switched sides and started shooting people who are doing what you had done for the last 2 years? Once again a UK member accuses Providance holders of failing to fight and running too empire? Are you really that stupid to think this has anything to do with UK? its -A- they are running from and do you blame them? Your pathetic and when your big friends are not around any more your go back under the rock you have all recently crawled from faster than any providance holder could ever run to empire.
zoolkhan Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:01:00 - [64] Originally by: Kommander Keen Originally by: Borza Slavak Originally by: mrmooo NRDS will not apply to any space that UK have sov over as they cannot enforce it against their NBSI freinds. I don't think you understand what NRDS is. You don't enforce it on others, you operate it yourself. I don't think you at UK understand how NRDS is understood by most space pilots nowadays, sir. This is the reason why your version of "NRDS" will fail. Frankly. Whether it "fails" lies in the eye of the beholder. Our mission is not to re-create jita pleasure hubs in providence. With other words, who cares - as long people flying there do it because they want, not because they are forced by their masters. even simpler for you folks who cant get away from the discussion around colour flags.... I DONT CARE I flew in providence when it was ours, when it was theirs, when it was contested by multiple factions - i even flew there before it was claimed by anyone. We are evacuating thousand and thousands of slaves there... that i care about. you can discuss about NRBSIDS all day long, and will yet not be able to influence anything we do because you identify yourself as useless in our cause. recruiting -forum
Icarus3 Gallente DAEDALUS X The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:34:00 - [65] Originally by: Velonei Vinnitsa sorry if im beating a rented donkey-we see the old adversaries CVA and thier puppets against the Ushrakhan and thier anarchist friends the Star Fraction here at war as usual.They both have as policy NRDS and as far as we have seen they try to enforce it...However both parties and in particular the Ushrakhan and Star Fraction are working with outsiders like AAA and Atlas Alliance who are have NBSI policy. We resident neutrals here in Providence have enjoyed for some time access to this space under the Holder NRDS Policy and it has been a mutual benifit to the holders and to neutral outside interests.With the current war here and the conflicting aims of the UK-STAR FRACTION NRDS-/AAA-ATLAS NBSI policy here in Providence these parties are not at this time beholden to most of the neutral residents here. Ive been handed the unfornutate task to express these views here on behalf of concerned parties that want to hear the aims or settlement of this conflict in Providence from both sides. Just to be clear on something here. Out of the involved parties you listed -SF- does indeed work with and loves to work with Ushra'Khan. We do not work with any of the other alliances you have mentioned. As a matter of fact we have recently crossed paths and exchanged fire with these other alliances. We try to avoid such thing as "the enemy of my enemy is..."(you can figure the rest out.) Like Havo has been saying there is a reason UK is NBSI in providence and catch. I fully understand their reasons for this considering everything Havo has already stated here. Lets not forget one thing wether you be neutral, blue or -10... freedom isn't given. It comes at a great cost. The Ushra'Khan for example are freeing the systems of providence one at a time. Neutrals counting on their neutrality for protection is completely irrational in my opinion. "Neutrals" support the CVA financially by docking, refining, ratting - upgrading systems etc etc. I suggest picking a side
Tom Hanks The Inf1dels	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:35:00 - [66] Zoolkhan is as hard as a Caldari Drill instructor. I remember fighting him for years back when I was in AMAX and following the Amarrian God of suffering and slavery of the spirit of man. But now I am a follower of the God that sets the spirit of man free. And that God says, buy a keg and slam some beers down with Zoolkhan, if he will agree to a drink with an old nemesis. Caldari Racial Purity
foksieloy Minmatar Universal Army Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:47:00 - [67] Illusions. Seems people love them. The same illusions that cause you to willfully relinquish more and more of your freedom. The illusion that you are safe because some incompetent government official examines every twentieth passenger of the shuttle, and asks him the three fundamental questions of safety. Because if someone was to blow up the shuttle, surely he would not lie to those questions. And you board your shuttle to the planet, happy that you are safe. Because you were told you would be safe. And you let them examine your luggage, look at the pictures of your family, look at your underwear, put their stinky fingers on your possessions. You are safe, because you were told you would be safe. CVA told their residents they are safe. They believed so. They saw their friends die around them daily. They were told to be safe. So they must have been safe. Yet they died non the less. Would it make you all feel better if we would to claim you are safe? Would you gladly submit your free will to us for the promise, and promise alone? Would you become a slave just for the illusion? People who lived in Providence till now had the illusion, and illusion alone. Now they cry, for the illusion is being shown, revealed. The truth is cold and bitter. But it is liberating. Take a breath through your lungs and feel the freedom offered. It is rejuvenating. Or go back to your illusion, cling to them, hug the fleeting image just to feel a bit of the intoxicating warmth of "safety". Be the worthless pile of human flesh you are. _______________________ We come for our people!
Icarus3 Gallente DAEDALUS X The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:49:00 - [68] Originally by: Tom Hanks How does the old Amarrian scripture go? All rights and powers come from the individual, not some empire, not some corporation, not an alliance. And it is up to each man or woman to recognize this, take responsibility for their own thoughts, actions, property, and safety. God bless the free minded and those with the courage to blaze their own path through the galaxy, and a curse to those too cowardly to do anything but feed on the rotten milk that comes from the tit of a dying empire and dying religion. HERE HERE! Best words I've heard in a long time!
Tom Hanks The Inf1dels	Posted - 2010.03.11 09:33:00 - [69] Well Icarus, the Amarrians have fooled their people into believing that their rights and powers come from 'The Empire' which somehow has the authority of God. This is utter absurdity. First, man needs no intermediate to speak with the God that created him. Secondly, man came before any empire or corporation. It is man that is the source of rights and powers and authority. These things are merely delegated to whatever institutions men create for their own benefit. Death to the Amarr empire Caldari Racial Purity
Halarach Amarr Epitoth Guard Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 13:23:00 - [70] Edited by: Halarach on 11/03/2010 13:25:54 Edited by: Halarach on 11/03/2010 13:23:32 Originally by: Butter Dog Edited by: Butter Dog on 10/03/2010 15:05:08 We're not going to adapt our ROE to suit useless pilots who want a 'Sansha hunt in Providence for free' card. Don't like it? Keep out of Providence then. Our ROE is for us to decide. We're fine with it. If you're not - too bad. If we revert to NRDS in Providence, it will be under our terms. If you don't think it's "true" NRDS, I couldn't care less. As a neutral that would sound extremely appealing to me! "Cool have the right to go int that space, but well no garantee I won't be shot by its residents, also if I want to rat it means I'm stupid. This must truely be NRDS, and I'm very welcome to it, how free and lucky I'm now under the new U'K regime ~dance~ " Clearly Mr Dog you completely admit that Provi under your regime, if that ever happens, would just be another empty catch, as neutrals have NO reason whatsoever to come to 0.0 just to see if they'll be shot, can't rat, mine, you know, earn some money.
Tom Hanks The Inf1dels	Posted - 2010.03.11 14:16:00 - [71] If UK has control over Providence the space could be considered their property because they have taken it upon themselves to protect it and regulate activities in their space. Your rights end where the property rights of the UK begin. It is common sense that you do not have the right to enter into another man's home and use his kitchen to make food you found in his house, sleep in his bed, etc. It is the same principle. Every right comes with a responsibility. UK has the right to fight for control of space from slaver Amarr and their supporters, to ensure the liberty of their people. Thus, it is their right to hold this space, but their responsibility to manage who flys into it. Caldari Racial Purity
Marus Sulla Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.11 14:27:00 - [72] How many times must it be repeated. U'K isn't in Providence to control/occupy/lease/rent whatever. We do not care about 'Space', we are there alongside our allies to f&^k CVA and their allies out. Destructive? Oh yes. As i have said before if CVA was reduced to a lone pilot in a Maller in Amaar he would be being chased by a U'K pilot.
Butter Dog Gallente The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.11 15:15:00 - [73] Originally by: Halarach As a neutral that would sound extremely appealing to me! "Cool have the ~right~ to fly in that space, but well no garantee I won't be shot by its residents, also if I want to rat it means I'm stupid. This must truely be NRDS, and I'm very welcome to it, how free and lucky I'm now under the new U'K regime ~dance~ " Clearly Mr Dog you completely admit that Provi under your regime, if that ever happens, would just be another empty catch, as neutrals have NO reason whatsoever to come to 0.0 just to see if they'll be shot, can't rat, mine, you know, earn some money. Also I, by definition, have the right to fly in any space. Doesn't mean I have any interrest in going to deep low-sec minmatar space to see if I'll be shot at. What makes you think it will be different. We won't shoot random neutrals if we operate NRDS, but I can't say we particularly want hordes of useless sansha hunters in our space either. Providence could be a great place for young alliances to own a few stations (kindly built by CVA) and truly develop as smaller independent entities. It is prime Dominion-age real estate next to empire. It will be a lot more interesting and colourful than your homogenous forced standings enclosure of vassal states and puppet leaders. ---------- ~bitter dog~ etc
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.03.11 16:34:00 - [74] Originally by: Archbishop Edited by: Archbishop on 11/03/2010 02:55:32 Isn't declaring war on others because of their freely chosen views then demanding they publically renounce them to satisfy your ego a form of "enforcing your standings on anyone else"? I'm asking because the Star Fraction has a long history of doing this. No, we do not force people to adopt our standings or RoE. We do fight against those who try to enforce such measures as we believe it is wrong to do so. We are free to do so and you are free to try and prevent us, ultimately the Universe will decide who is right. Originally by: Archbishop What did you do to end up red to them? It seems you're red to everyone? Perhaps if you'd focus your efforts on building safe space for pilots where they can be free to engage in commerce you'd accomplish a bit more then your wanton focus on endless violence. I presumed we are red to them as they are openly hostile towards our vessels. I do not have access to their red list so they may well be simply NBSI however from our point of view, not being blue is the same as being red to them. Our diplomats have not informed us of any Blue standings and as such AAA & Atlas are still considered hostile towards us. We did not initiate this aggression as far as I am aware so it is not a case of ôendless violenceö on our part it is simply defending ourselves. Originally by: Archbishop So anarchists are free to come together for a common goal but others are not? After all people in Providence who didn't care for the CVA were more then welcome to move or stay there and stay neutral. No one forced them to live there. You are free to come together and work as you please. However this is not what the CVA enforced and you know it. People were free to live there, however when those declared 'hostile' by the CVA came to town neutrals were told to fire on them. This is wrong, and we oppose it. That is all there is to it. Originally by: Archbishop Can you name ONE SINGLE SYSTEM where your actions destroying peacekeeping forces has led to a better life and security for local residents? I would guess not as pirates seem to follow you like the plague and likewise you seem to never be attacked by them. I'm beginning to think the Star Fraction is really an agent of piracy leading the charge to destabilize a system before the pirates move in to take over. Kamela. Originally by: Archbishop So you readily admit where there was once a safe region of space for neutrals and newer pilots that was kept safe from pirates by CVA there is now a bloodbath of murder and mayhem... and somehow this is better. No. I explicitly stated how unsafe providence really is. There is a myth propagated by the holders that they will 'keep you safe' û but that is all it is a myth. A false pretence that has no doubt lost many a rookie pilot their ship. While some pilots intentions in Providence may have been noble the reality is they were grossly misguided. Originally by: Archbishop Who are you to decide the CVA style is incorrect? It seems to me the years and years of peace in Providence and the prosperity many obtained there is very indicative of people deciding they wanted to live within the security confines of the CVA. I am ChipMo. Free Captain of the Star Fraction. I can think for myself and see the Galaxy for what it is. I have the power to act and the will to back that up. This is how I take up the right to oppose what the CVA have put forward. This protection racket of corrupt Amarrians and kin has been a blot on New Eden long enough. Originally by: Archbishop Once again the Star Fraction hypocrisy is clear. Condemn others for helping their fellow man while at the same time helping pirates and condeming others who choose freely to live in Providence. Which is it? Either you support people freely choosing their destiny or you don't? Remember though... if they choose to live within an alliance's rules that is then a choice you must also respect as "freely chosen". You seem to forget that. Hypocrites. Archbishop There is no hypocrisy here, people are free to choose their way in life if they wish to live a certain way that is fine. If rules are laid out in stone that persecute or impede others freedom to do so we will smash them to pieces.
Halarach Amarr Epitoth Guard Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 17:29:00 - [75] Originally by: Butter Dog Providence could be a great place for young alliances to own a few stations (kindly built by CVA) and truly develop as smaller independent entities. It is prime Dominion-age real estate next to empire. It will be a lot more interesting and colourful than your homogenous forced standings enclosure of vassal states and puppet leaders. In other words, pets. They hold the systems for you, probably pay a rent in addition to sovereignity bills, in exchange you might assist them (or not) when we'll come to reclaim what is ours? How glorious, that must be freedom with a big F.
Van PokerAlho	Posted - 2010.03.11 18:04:00 - [76] This are questions to someone in UK alliance with knowledge to answer, I think this simplify what people want to know about the UK future Providence, I ask politely for someone in UK to answer. Providence will have KOS list (like CVA had)? If not, how is it possible to have NRDS? (detailed explanation please) and how can you check who is red for all the corps, alliances and solo characters in the region to know NRDS is being enforced? I hope UK answer this questions because it concerns a lot of players in the game, many interested in going to Providence after CVA is out, and no one can see a 0.0 NRDS region without some kind of police (even if in paper only, like a KOS list so people know who is hostile) can become a NRDS and an anarchy at the same time.
Xiro Taunt	Posted - 2010.03.11 18:33:00 - [77] The thing to remember here is UK do not care much about pilots who are not part of the southern powerploc. UK use slavery as a crutch. They come to say they free the slaves, but they have no evidence that they do. In the process they kill any pilots who are not part of their power bloc. They have lost any mission they ever had. They are now just a part of the great -A- ego machine. This is just about power. The power to kill as they wish for no reason. They care only for themselves, they prosper from the power of their greater master. Remember pilots of the cluster. UK care not for you at all. You will always be red if you are not pet to the mighty -A- ego machine. They care not for my people at all either.
Borza Slavak Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.11 18:33:00 - [78] Edited by: Borza Slavak on 11/03/2010 18:34:22 Originally by: Van PokerAlho Edited by: Van PokerAlho on 11/03/2010 18:07:52 This are questions to someone in UK alliance with knowledge to answer, I think this simplify what people want to know about the UK future Providence, I ask politely for someone in UK to answer. Providence will have KOS list (like CVA had)? If not, how is it possible to have NRDS? (detailed explanation please) and how can you check who is red for all the corps, alliances and solo characters in the region to know NRDS is being enforced? How can you prevent some powerbloc from attacking the sovereignity? Are the systems going to be rented to the corps and alliances interested in going to Providence? I hope UK answer this questions because it concerns a lot of players in the game, many interested in going to Providence after CVA is out, and no one can see a 0.0 NRDS region without some kind of police (even if in paper only, like a KOS list so people know who is hostile) can become a NRDS and an anarchy at the same time. Neither -A- nor U'K leadership have made any official public announcements yet, and last I heard hadn't reached final decisions. Unofficially, going by gossip, some random posts, and some common membership attitudes (I doubt you'll get anything more concrete for quite a while) I personally suspect Future Provi (TM) may have: a suggested or recommended Red List - the most common roamers - while leaving final decisions on standings to residents individually systems either given for free with no rent or maybe a one-off payment? some of the powers currently removing CVA for their expansionism may have a vested interest in preventing a hostile takeover of Provi again later for fear of having history repeat itself, even if they are normally 'red' to the peaceful residents probably a forum of some kind for checking up on NRDS behaviour? I'm not sure, haven't heard this discussed much. This is as unofficial as all the other posts you've probably read, it's simply a summary. Don't take anything as confirmed until you see a post by, say, Sapphrine on behalf of Ushra'Khan - I'm not sure who the -A- spokesperson would be. Anyway this is what I currently think is most likely, hopefully it helps because I doubt the relevant alliance leaders are going to make premature announcements simply because some unknown pod pilot asked. Remember, it's not just premature because the details may still be being worked out, but the slavers and their friends aren't quite down and out for the count yet.
Stratio Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.11 18:48:00 - [79] Originally by: Kommander Keen I don't think you at UK understand how NRDS is understood by most space pilots nowadays, sir. We are not talking theory here. Everytime we venture outside of Providence and Catch, we operate NRDS. If you meet us in Curse and you are neutral to us, we will not shoot you, but neither will we defend you against some other person who may be attacking you. _____________________ For Tribe and Honour!
Xina Tutor Amarr Black Arrows Sev3rance	Posted - 2010.03.11 19:23:00 - [80] UK is NRDS elsewhere for simple survival reasons... If they fly deep in some other space, don't shoot the nuets, they have enough enemies as it is :) And besides that... the targetting delay after decloaking is a pain.
foksieloy Minmatar Universal Army Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.11 19:44:00 - [81] The tears of the piles of human flesh, formerly known as holders, are quite rampant here. Poor sheep, unable to think for themselves. Unable to work without the illusion of safety. _______________________ We come for our people!
Butter Dog Gallente The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.11 20:09:00 - [82] Originally by: Xina Tutor they have enough enemies as it is :) actually we've pretty much got the entire south blue, for better or worse ---------- ~bitter dog~ etc
Havohej Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2010.03.11 20:44:00 - [83] Originally by: Merdaneth Also, there is no such thing as 'Minmatar space', do you mean the systems with Republic sovereignity perhaps? No. I mean Minmatar space. Heimatar, Metropolis, Molden Heath, the Wildlands... Minmatar space. Quote: Basically you are saying that you consider everyone that doesn't live in your home an enemy. We consider everyone who either acts directly against the best interests of the Minmatar people or supports those who do to be an enemy of the Minmatar people. Whether they live in Minmatar space or not. Quote: What would you do outside Republic space if Concord and sentry guns were removed? Do as much damage as we could to the Empire's soft underbelly until running out of resources or being destroyed ourselves. Originally by: Havohej Natural allies. Curious term. How do you define 'natural' allies exactly? Are you a natural ally of the Minmatar people? A natural ally in the context with which I used it is a person or entity that for whatever reason shares not only common enemies but also similar beliefs and/or goals. People who you trust not to act against your best interests not because they say they won't but because betraying you would set their own goals back. For example, the Star Fraction and the Minmatar militia, particularly during the Star Fraction's campaign against the Amarr militia. Common enemies: check. Similar beliefs and/or goals: check. One would hurt their own cause as much as their ally's in the event of a betrayal: check. Natural allies. Du'uma Fiisi is Recruiting
Merdaneth Amarr Angel Wing.	Posted - 2010.03.11 23:17:00 - [84] Maybe I should be NRDS to my slaves to? I will consider my slaves neutral and not shoot them when they run away. Of course, I have a pack of NBSI slaver hounds roaming my grounds that are friendly to me they will need to avoid. When my slaves defend themselves from the hounds, I am of course free to open fire on the slaves without breaking my friendly NRDS. I then tell my slaves when that if they desire freedom they must be willing to fight for it. Something like that? I prefer giving them a good education instead and releasing them peacefully when they are ready while protecting them from harm while they are under my care. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Karn Mithralia Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.11 23:56:00 - [85] Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 11/03/2010 23:59:42 Originally by: Van PokerAlho This are questions to someone in UK alliance with knowledge to answer At risk of flogging a dead horse, casting pearls before swine and other animal metaphors demonstrating the futility of repeatedly posting in this forum ... - You can take anything I have said in this thread as an official response, that also goes for a serious post I made in CAOD on the topic. Read them to find out our stance on NRDS in Providence. - We will not maintain a shared KOS list as we don't work standings enclosurism. - We will prevent some power-bloc from attacking sovereignty the same way we already do; by fighting them off. That's no guarantee of course, but that's life in 0.0. - We have no intention of installing renters, this will be free space for free men. If you really can't see how this can work without NRDS police then I suspect Providence is not for you. If itÆs really a matter of inexperience obstructing your vision, then feel free to initiate private comms with me and I'll elaborate. "Freedom comes at great cost, the cost of blood"
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.03.12 01:32:00 - [86] Originally by: ChipMo No, we do not force people to adopt our standings or RoE. We do fight against those who try to enforce such measures as we believe it is wrong to do so. We are free to do so and you are free to try and prevent us, ultimately the Universe will decide who is right. So you admit you are forcing your viewpoint (those measures you believe in) on others. Given the Star Fraction position that individuals should fight for *themselves* how do you then justify in your minds fighting on their behalf in these encounters as you claim to do? Using your stated positions after all these local pilots in Providence, Mito and everywhere else should make their own decisions about whether or not that want to live in the current climate and likewise should take action on their own if they do not. Do you see the clear hypocrisy here? It's pretty obvious to me. Quote: You are free to come together and work as you please. However this is not what the CVA enforced and you know it. People were free to live there, however when those declared 'hostile' by the CVA came to town neutrals were told to fire on them. This is wrong, and we oppose it. That is all there is to it. If those neutrals didn't like it shouldn't they have taken action on their own as you seem to be claiming? As you've said space is dangerous and sometimes you die. Those local residents of Providence are the ones to rise up and attack CVA not some outsiders such as the Star Fraction who aren't at all affected by CVA policies. In acting as you have you have become a proxy fighting on behalf of the local residents seeking to allow them to free themselves from CVAs rules. Why isn't that their own choice then? Quote: Kamela. Where will Kamela be in a month? In six months? In a year? After all the CVA kept the peace in Providence for YEARS and for years locals made their own decisions to live there and live under the CVAs tutelage. Will the same be said for Kamela YEARS from now? Will the Star Fraction stay and protect what they've claimed to build (a truly "free" Kamela)? Or will you leave and let your pirate allies overrun the area as you have so many times in the past? If you will commit to staying there and protecting people from pirates as you've protected them from CVA imperialism (as you claim) I will be happy to acknowledge that fact a year from now. Quote: No. I explicitly stated how unsafe providence really is. There is a myth propagated by the holders that they will 'keep you safe' û but that is all it is a myth. A false pretence that has no doubt lost many a rookie pilot their ship. While some pilots intentions in Providence may have been noble the reality is they were grossly misguided. Providence has been regarded for years as the safe place a new pilot can go to get 0.0 experience in relative security. I'd suggest hanging out in school stations where new pilots receive their pod licenses for awhile and listen to the conversation. Providence was always mentioned as *the* safe place to go. Whining about "holder myths" and "enclosurist standings" really mean nothing when the reality is you've made Providence much more dangerous to neutral pilots then it ever was under CVA rule. Quote: There is no hypocrisy here, people are free to choose their way in life if they wish to live a certain way that is fine. If rules are laid out in stone that persecute or impede others freedom to do so we will smash them to pieces. What if people choose on their own to live under those rules? Your own alliance has rules that you must follow or you have the option to leave. Neutrals and locals in Providence can follow rules or leave. If you want to claim people should be able to choose for themselves you must then respect their free decisions. It's 100% hypocrisy ChipMo. But nice try. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.03.12 01:49:00 - [87] Originally by: Archbishop What if people choose on their own to live under those rules? Your own alliance has rules that you must follow or you have the option to leave. Neutrals and locals in Providence can follow rules or leave. If you want to claim people should be able to choose for themselves you must then respect their free decisions. It's 100% hypocrisy ChipMo. But nice try. Archbishop I do not prevent anyone abiding by their own chosen rules, I prevent people pushing their rules on other people. There is a clear and distinct difference you seem to be consistently ignoring in all your prattle. Once you realise this, you will see how foolish the rest of your post was.
Velonei Vinnitsa	Posted - 2010.03.12 01:53:00 - [88] well thanks to you all for your comments on this tread...i guess the rented donkey is dead...one thing though..Icarus3 of SF basically stated in this tread that us neutrals should pick a side..indeed..funny coming from a representitive of Star Fraction.. an alliance with dreamy utopian goals of brotherhood in 0.0..no flags..no states no polities..no government....SF to suggest to pick a side...lol.....SF should declare Providence a SOVIET STATE and organize it...maybe some of us might join.. o7 regards to you all
Tizian Enel Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.12 03:21:00 - [89] Originally by: Velonei Vinnitsa well thanks to you all for your comments on this tread...i guess the rented donkey is dead...one thing though..Icarus3 of SF basically stated in this tread that us neutrals should pick a side..indeed..funny coming from a representitive of Star Fraction.. an alliance with dreamy utopian goals of brotherhood in 0.0..no flags..no states no polities..no government....SF to suggest to pick a side...lol.....SF should declare Providence a SOVIET STATE and organize it...maybe some of us might join.. o7 regards to you all Just to repeat what has been said multiple times.. there are no true neutrals in Providence. The "neutrals" to CVA are effectively supporting slavery and thus Ushra'Khan would have a good reason to set them red. There have been many complaints about Ushra'Khans NBSI policy in Providence and Catch.. the alternative for us would to start setting more and more people red. The end result would be the same for those "neutrals" in Providence and Catch... but they'd also be a target outside these two regions, surely a worse overall situation to be in? So U'K has NBSI in these two regions and it's actually to the benefit of these slaver sympathisers. That said, if you can demonstrate you're in the area and not working for the slavers you only need to contact our diplomats and arrange blue standings. Picking a side thus really means to "join Ushra'Khan and Star Fraction in their fight against slavery and standings enclosurism.. or realise that by inaction you have already chosen to work for the benefit of the other side - the slavers".
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.03.12 04:51:00 - [90] Originally by: ChipMo I do not prevent anyone abiding by their own chosen rules, I prevent people pushing their rules on other people. There is a clear and distinct difference you seem to be consistently ignoring in all your prattle. How is declaring war on others and insisting they renounce their beliefs and way of life not pushing your rules on other people? Your rules are your beliefs that you operate under and apparently expect everyone else to follow. The very act of declaring war on people who have made a conscious choice to live a certain way is in and of itself attempting to force your viewpoint on them. I'll give you an example. The Star Fraction alleges to be NRDS. If a pilot in the Star Fraction decides to ignore that rule and fire on a neutral in space what happens? Lets say he does this more than once? Do you say "I respect your choice and I will not try to force our rules on you" or do you eject him from the alliance? The entire premise of the Star Fraction is a contradiction. With every action you take trying to push your agenda of anarchy you basically try to force others to adopt your viewpoint. The very act of preventing someone from doing something is a static reality... you are seeking to have someone ammend their freely chosen behavior or belief to that which you "approve". I recall in Mito for example the Star Fraction was very vocal about having a "proper surrender" from the KD organization. You didn't just want a surrender you wanted them to renounce Caldari loyalism. In other words you wanted them to betray who they were. If that isn't an example of trying to force your rules and beliefs onto someone else I don't know what is. In reality you are much worse then CVA ever was. CVA secured space, made it safe for new pilots and did their best to keep the region pirate free. They allowed law abiding citizens to move freely in Providence and make their fortune. While it was asked the residents help and support there was no "demand" that they do so. Locals were able to live freely as was their choice. If they didn't want to live under those rules they were always free to leave. The Star Fraction on the other hand has a history of seeking to force corporations to disavow their identity. This isn't about ending enclosurism at all for you it's about "winning" and getting people to change their minds and betray who they are. Just as in Mito you could really care less what individual people thought as long as you got your way in the end. Likewise in the Star Fraction you are given rules to follow. If you don't follow them you are free to leave. The Star Fraction fails to realize people freely choose to live in Providence. Whether or not they subscribe to the CVA KOS list is irrelevant. They've made a free choice. The Star Fraction does not respect the free choices of others. They only respect them when they agree with their own ideology. Anything else is an excuse for violence and anarchy. In the end the Star Fraction is all about intimidation, bullying, extortion and seeking converts to their cause of anarchy. They are really no different then that which they claim to fight. Of course the difference is while those who they oppose seek to secure space for safe and peaceful commerce the Star Fraction seems to want to secure lawlessness and open the door for new pirate caretakers. It seems to me the damage caused by the Star Fraction throughout their history far outweighs anything good they may have claimed to done. Pirate infested systems and innocent neutrals left behind to try and pick of the pieces of their once safe homes while dodging the weapons of now abundant pirate vessels. Yes... safe indeed. Hypocrisy exposed via the clarity of the truth. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL

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