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Clone Costs - Punishing veterans for continuing to play?

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masternerdguy Gallente Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2010.03.16 20:48:00 - [91] my name is mng and i support this message
Ghoest	Posted - 2010.03.16 20:48:00 - [92] Originally by: Sturmwolke Ahahahahahha .. did I read this thread correctly .. PeeVeePeers wants to turn EVE into WoW? No more satifaction in podding an old titan/mom pilot? No more satisfaction in podding > 40 mil pilots? It bit funny that you cant read. lol @ u cuz u dumb Wherever you went - Here you are.
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2010.03.16 21:17:00 - [93] Originally by: Ghoest It bit funny that you cant read. lol @ u cuz u dumb I find your negative emotional response disturbing .... piiish poshh
Matting NQX Innovations	Posted - 2010.03.16 22:17:00 - [94] Originally by: Sturmwolke Ahahahahahha .. did I read this thread correctly .. PeeVeePeers wants to turn EVE into WoW? No more satifaction in podding an old titan/mom pilot? No more satisfaction in podding > 40 mil pilots? Can you explain how it's turning eve into wow? There is still risk involved on your clone and its only the high end that needs to be balanced. There is the choice for everything else what your willing to spend for risk vs reward. As you get older that reward is higher stats but it caps when you are forced to cross train where 1 single ship doesn't get better than others. Titan/Mom pilots would most likely still have nice plugs, no change really. >40 mil pilots would still have more expensive clones than <40 mil but not as ridiculously high. A lot of things in early eve were balanced on isk, we now know this isn't the best balancing idea and now clones need re-evaluating. A whole rejig of the system could be better than just adjusting the costs but of course would take a lot more time on CCP's part. On the point about training other chars on your account, I will take this seriously when CCP allow us to share wallets and to change character without having to restart eve. I really don't like the idea that we should be forced in to that anyway.
Spurty Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.03.16 22:20:00 - [95] Clearly, everyone here is in favor or removing medical insurance. This will be good for the game as high skill point players will just not bother to undock. End game is currently empire. Originally by: Hurley I WAS NOT QUITTING SoT AND WAS NOT THINKING ABOUT JOINING IT. PL/SoT MADE A MISTAKE AND ARE NOT MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT IT OR FIX IT.
Nyveg Hyperborea Re	Posted - 2010.03.16 22:52:00 - [96] Totlley on your side, losing this much isk with a pod for having played a long time is a ***** equation. Quiir gets flagged? lol ok.
Tulisin Dragonflame	Posted - 2010.03.16 23:17:00 - [97] Originally by: Sturmwolke Ahahahahahha .. did I read this thread correctly .. PeeVeePeers wants to turn EVE into WoW? No more satifaction in podding an old titan/mom pilot? No more satisfaction in podding > 40 mil pilots? Implants already allow "satisfaction" for podding. However, implants are a choice, buying clones is not (realistically). Your clone price is basically your floor on the minimum amount of ISK you're risking whenever you hit that undock button. Train two characters up to max effectiveness with an Incursus. Now give one of those characters another 70 million SP. Both characters are now flying an Incursus at 100 %, but the higher SP character's risk when he undocks his incursus is now arbitrarily a couple dozen/hundred times the first character's. Arbitrary punishment for training is not good design. Hypothetical: Would people be alright if every 10 million SP gained decreased insurance cost/payout by 10 % until at 100million SP you could no longer insure?
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.16 23:26:00 - [98] Edited by: Ephemeron on 16/03/2010 23:27:08 Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame Implants already allow "satisfaction" for podding. They don't give any satisfaction, because there's no way of knowing what implants your victim had. They only offer extra punishment to the victim - which is quite appropriate. Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame Train two characters up to max effectiveness with an Incursus. Now give one of those characters another 70 million SP. Both characters are now flying an Incursus at 100 %, but the higher SP character's risk when he undocks his incursus is now arbitrarily a couple dozen/hundred times the first character's. Arbitrary punishment for training is not good design. Your arbitrary scenario has another solution: don't buy new clones. Each time you die you lose a tiny fraction from that extra 70 mil extra sp. You can die a 100 times and still have all the skills to fly perfect Incursus. And then the clone cost gradually drops down to 5 mil or so.
Tulisin Dragonflame	Posted - 2010.03.16 23:37:00 - [99] Originally by: Ephemeron Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame Train two characters up to max effectiveness with an Incursus. Now give one of those characters another 70 million SP. Both characters are now flying an Incursus at 100 %, but the higher SP character's risk when he undocks his incursus is now arbitrarily a couple dozen/hundred times the first character's. Arbitrary punishment for training is not good design. Your arbitrary scenario has another solution: don't buy new clones. Each time you die you lose a tiny fraction from that extra 70 mil extra sp. You can die a 100 times and still have all the skills to fly perfect Incursus. And then the clone cost gradually drops down to 5 mil or so. That is an interesting way to look at it, although I don't think the community as a whole will ever accept SP as a buffer like that.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.16 23:40:00 - [100] Originally by: Ephemeron Your arbitrary scenario has another solution: don't buy new clones. Each time you die you lose a tiny fraction from that extra 70 mil extra sp. You can die a 100 times and still have all the skills to fly perfect Incursus. And then the clone cost gradually drops down to 5 mil or so. As I understand it, that's not really guaranteed. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
The'Best Hellfury Incura	Posted - 2010.03.16 23:43:00 - [101] Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame Implants already allow "satisfaction" for podding. However, implants are a choice, buying clones is not (realistically). Your clone price is basically your floor on the minimum amount of ISK you're risking whenever you hit that undock button. Train two characters up to max effectiveness with an Incursus. Now give one of those characters another 70 million SP. Both characters are now flying an Incursus at 100 %, but the higher SP character's risk when he undocks his incursus is now arbitrarily a couple dozen/hundred times the first character's. Arbitrary punishment for training is not good design. This is a good post.
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2010.03.16 23:59:00 - [102] Originally by: Matting Can you explain how it's turning eve into wow? There is still risk involved on your clone and its only the high end that needs to be balanced. And you've got the temerity to ask "how is EvE turning in WoW" when your proposal in Post #33 shows a (wrongly shaped) bulging tapering curve that runs under 7 mil per clone for over 100mil SP? /me facepalm Why don't you just go ahead and ditch that, run a re-proposal to eliminate ALL clone costs altogether? What's probably acceptable at this point in time is a ceiling cap to clone cost with regard to SP, but certainly not anything less than 50mil isk per clone.
Zenst Aliastra	Posted - 2010.03.17 00:10:00 - [103] they will update the cost of clones right after I update, just like every other **ing time the **s.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.03.17 00:21:00 - [104] Originally by: Aarin Wrath Originally by: Zewron So how long does it take a 20 mil. SP+ char to make 30 mil. ISK? A WHOLE hour? Jesus. Dude, sorry, I mean troll boy, shut up. Your missing the point completly. Let me spell it out for you : 1. I have 70 million SP and am in a drake. I die, get podded. I am now out: -1 drake -fittings -30 million for a new clone 2. You being a nub-troll have 10 million SP, you die, get podded. You are out: -1 drake -fittings -3 million for a new clone. I am punished, and deterred, from doing pvp again because of the high clone cost of my high sp character. You are not. In effect, I loose the cost of a Drake just to replace my clone. wth at 70mil sp and deciding to take a drake out losing it shouldn't even be a consideration. the clone cost "keeps it real" at 10m sp aw fux I lost mah drake, that is the best ship I can fly in pvp. and then I got podded
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2010.03.17 00:23:00 - [105] Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 17/03/2010 00:24:38 Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame Implants already allow "satisfaction" for podding. However, implants are a choice, buying clones is not (realistically). Your clone price is basically your floor on the minimum amount of ISK you're risking whenever you hit that undock button. Train two characters up to max effectiveness with an Incursus. Now give one of those characters another 70 million SP. Both characters are now flying an Incursus at 100 %, but the higher SP character's risk when he undocks his incursus is now arbitrarily a couple dozen/hundred times the first character's. Arbitrary punishment for training is not good design. this is the crux of the problem. well put. i tried to say it in way more words but this ^^ Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 16/03/2010 17:17:29 This thread is hilarious. 1: Chances are better than even the the OP simply bought a high SP character and has no idea how to make money in EVE. 2: Chances are also good that the OP is simply trying to delude himself with "one more good reason" why he can't bring himself to engage in PVP. I flew with you in ranger corp in aridia, went on to play in fountain w/ you though under a different name (my main). but the whole "i wouldn't listen to this guy because he is fundamentally illegitimate for b.s. reason #73" is cute. honestly r1, you wouldn't like to take your main out for a spin in a ceptor w/o realizing it's going to be a minimum 60mil loss for you? i'll reiterate, i don't mind losing when i pvp, it's what makes it fun. and loss should be meaningful. but you should have the option of lower cost pvp for fun too as for the alt talk, sure, that IS a solution. however i'm from the school that says this is still somewhat an rpg. i'm not /walking into tavern or anything (LOVE alts for forum posting!) but it's nice to BE your main in-game. I hate using alts, despise it, and shouldn't have to resort to it for small ship skirmish fun i'm liking some of the replies from both sides. wish we didn't have so many "they're trying to DESTROY EVE and TURN IT INTO WOW and other such kneejerk asshatery but hey, it's a hot topic if you pause to think about it and it brings em out of the woodwork
cyclobs Minmatar Honourable Templum of Alcedonia	Posted - 2010.03.17 00:26:00 - [106] Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia -it's a pvp game. endgame=hulk is fail wrong, it's a sandbox game. people play it they way they want. pvp is just a part of it
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.03.17 00:27:00 - [107] Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame Train two characters up to max effectiveness with an Incursus. Now give one of those characters another 70 million SP. Both characters are now flying an Incursus at 100 %, but the higher SP character's risk when he undocks his incursus is now arbitrarily a couple dozen/hundred times the first character's. Arbitrary punishment for training is not good design. one is stuck flying an incursis, the other can say lol he is flying an incursis and undock a vexor. or damn near any other subcap in game.
Berenices Herculina Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.03.17 00:37:00 - [108] Clone cost needs overhaul, as does kill mail system too.
Cherubior Pernicious Creed	Posted - 2010.03.17 00:38:00 - [109] Originally by: Great Artista Clone costs is CCP's way of saying that the "End game" isn't 0.0, but lowsec. /thread ------------------------------------ ------------------------------------
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.17 00:53:00 - [110] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton at 70mil sp and deciding to take a drake out losing it shouldn't even be a consideration. the clone cost "keeps it real" at 10m sp aw fux I lost mah drake, that is the best ship I can fly in pvp. and then I got podded What are you talking about!? I suspect at 70M SP a Drake is STILL the best ship I can fly into PVP! And then to get podded... Also, I liked the idea of moving SP loss onto ship loss (like T3) and making everyone "buy it back" at a cloning station. Means that losing SHIPS is more painful - regardless of whether someone nabs your pod. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Tulisin Dragonflame	Posted - 2010.03.17 00:54:00 - [111] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton at 70mil sp and deciding to take a drake out losing it shouldn't even be a consideration. the clone cost "keeps it real" You're making the same mistake CCP has here: Assuming that high SP automatically means you're rolling in ISK and/or are less likely to lose your ship. SP and ISK availability do not follow the same curve. ISK/hr rapidly accelerates while you're training your first few skillpoints and then goes incredibly static as you cap out your particular profession while clone costs keep rising. How about this: Clones are now separate from your SP bank. You can buy a cheap clone, but you can only "load" it with SP up to its maximum capacity. Flying a cheapo t1 frigate? You only need your 5 million SP-holding clone. Flying your titan? You're going to need a lot more space and will have to buy or jumpclone into your high-capacity clone.
Tulisin Dragonflame	Posted - 2010.03.17 01:01:00 - [112] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame Train two characters up to max effectiveness with an Incursus. Now give one of those characters another 70 million SP. Both characters are now flying an Incursus at 100 %, but the higher SP character's risk when he undocks his incursus is now arbitrarily a couple dozen/hundred times the first character's. Arbitrary punishment for training is not good design. one is stuck flying an incursis, the other can say lol he is flying an incursis and undock a vexor. or damn near any other subcap in game. Irrelevant, we're not arguing whether SP are useful here. In said specific situation, the higher SP character is being arbitrarily punished. That is -all- that matters.
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.17 01:09:00 - [113] Quote: sure. losing bs V would definitely be "a tiny fraction" not to mention the whole of your post makes as much logical sense as a bullet to the brain I have been podded with outdated clones several times. When you lose skill points from BS 5, you don't lose the entire level 5 skill points, you lose only a small fraction so your level 5 is just a couple days from finishing. So it doesn't really matter whether you lose level 5 from bs or from engineering, it's still same amount of lost training time - which is always small. And my odd logic post was merely a reaction to odd logic hypothetical scenario used by a guy I was quoting. As you know, when someone starts talking crazy, it's hard to have logical discussion. I was merely illustrating the fact.
Matting NQX Innovations	Posted - 2010.03.17 01:10:00 - [114] Originally by: Sturmwolke And you've got the temerity to ask "how is EvE turning in WoW" when your proposal in Post #33 shows a (wrongly shaped) bulging tapering curve that runs under 7 mil per clone for over 100mil SP? /me facepalm Why don't you just go ahead and ditch that, run a re-proposal to eliminate ALL clone costs altogether? What's probably acceptable at this point in time is a ceiling cap to clone cost with regard to SP, but certainly not anything less than 50mil isk per clone. If you don't want to answer the question just say that, don't try and deflect to details in my graph that you still don't explain why they are wrong. I'm not a maths wiz so I did my best getting a graph to the right shape for what I felt was correct. Do you want to explain why its the wrong shape or just want to deflect again? The way you skill up in eve is not linear and same with ISK making ability, I tried to get my graph to represent this as much as possible but I would never get one that everyone is happy with. IMO the costs of PVP should be what ship, fittings and implants you choose to use. Do you wish to explain why you feel 50m should be the ceiling, why not 25m or 75m?
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2010.03.17 01:37:00 - [115] Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 17/03/2010 01:40:38 first thx for clarifying how that loss works. i've never not updated my clone so i've not actually had to experience it. i assumed worst case scenario, my bad. Originally by: Ephemeron Anyway, the bottom line is that some people are just too much of pussies to really appreciate this game. So they try to mold it in their image. I'm sorry you suck so bad at making isk, but I can't allow your carebear bleating to ruin another good game. If you can't handle it, quit, and give me your stuff, you don't deserve it i see now. People that don't see the game how you see it are obviously wrong. Can't believe these people that would mold it in their image and expect everyone else to conform. Totally w/ you 100% btw, i HATE carebearing. That's the whole point. Moar pvp, less carebearing. Why should i have to carebear more just because i have a heavy sp load? Originally by: Matting Do you wish to explain why you feel 50m should be the ceiling, why not 25m or 75m? The answer is obviously: because. At least that's how i'm understanding these peoples logic.
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.17 01:45:00 - [116] Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia i see now. People that don't see the game how you see it are obviously wrong. Can't believe these people that would mold it in their image and expect everyone else to conform. Totally w/ you 100% btw, i HATE carebearing. That's the whole point. Moar pvp, less carebearing. Why should i have to carebear more just because i have a heavy sp load? Right now these carebears are telling that CCP is wrong, that they shouldn't have EVE with consequences and hardcore gameplay elements. They want CCP to change the game, so it is more suitable to the average ***** ass player that faints if he loses his pod to a gate camp. I'm merely defending the original 2003-2004 ideals of this game. And I only rant at CCP when they do stupid things like giving in to the carebear whine. You SHOULD hate carebearing, and being forced to do so after you lose a ship in PvP is a punishment you have to endure. You make mistakes in PvP - you get punished. That's how it should be, if the game is to call itself hardcore. Without punishment, there is no fear, without fear, there is no consequences.
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2010.03.17 02:23:00 - [117] Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 17/03/2010 02:23:53 Originally by: Ephemeron You SHOULD hate carebearing, and being forced to do so after you lose a ship in PvP is a punishment you have to endure. You make mistakes in PvP - you get punished. That's how it should be, if the game is to call itself hardcore. Without punishment, there is no fear, without fear, there is no consequences. And tell me where, ANYWHERE, i've suggested otherwise. I too defend the 03-04 ideals. Let me clue you in, this wasn't even a itch on their brains back then. No one ever faced these costs (or the current state of game balance across the board for all other pvp loss factors) back then. The fact is there are multiple balanced ways for you to face loss already. I'm not saying clones should be free, but I've yet to hear a sound reason you should ever have a 40/50/+ mil isk pod just for having the SP. -The SP DO NOT grant you some godlike power on the field (thank christ). -The SP DO NOT mean you automatically roll in isk. -It doesn't make sense. I think we agree for the most part but your strict adherence to the status quo on this specific topic has yet to be explained clearly and independently. By the way i threw a thread in assembly (see OP) if you want to go support it or tell everyone how bad of an idea you think it is
DigitalCommunist November Corporation	Posted - 2010.03.17 02:33:00 - [118] A preface: Current skills: 216 (skill points: 121,140,301) I've upgraded to the 30mil clone three times now, because they've dropped the price four times. Clone costs and podding penalties are an absolute joke, even if you pvp daily. For most people the pain is implants and butthurt. You'd be surprised how many people drop to a pvp jump clone during war, get repeatedly podded, and find out its "not fun" to get stroked, molested, and mocked about it. My personal favourite is trading corpses for intel or cash. As for your listed reasons, here is the rebuttal: Quote: The beauty of eve is, that despite a massive gain in SP over your competition, there is a less than linear gain in real combat advantage. You're arguing that this system is intended to bring fairness and parity in single combat, which is a pretty absurd notion. I can argue instead the clone premium paid is your price for having extra versatility on one character, which is neither linear nor diminishing returns if compared against reliance on teammates or multiple accounts. Quote: Why play that character at all? Why not just start a lower SP char to use. This is an excellent example of a veteran actually being punished for using his high SP character in combat. If you want to use the punishment angle, maybe its to offset the fewer times you'd get yourself podded as a result of greater experience while sinking the same level of isk out of the economy. Skillpoint gain is heavily correlated with time. Although as I said above, fair fights are not a priority in this game. Other than punishment, you can argue cheap clones are an added safety net for new players. Meaning that its a bonus; one that risk adverse carebears don't feel comfortable giving up. "This bonus is good for me, let me enjoy it longer" == "This new punishment is bad for me, I don't want it" Quote: The flawed logic that simply because a character is older, they have access to billions upon billions of isk. And your flawed logic here is that one needs billions upon billions of isk before taking a high sp character out for pvp. Talk about exaggeration. Even if you never go above T2 cruisers and T1 battleships, and get podded every single time (lol), its not a deal breaker. It is a fact of QEN that player wealth rises with time played. If you have a bunch of sp and neither the experience or cash to back it up, then you should consider whether you want to engage in that fight or not more carefully - regardless of your clone costs. Quote: The grind. This may be the worst of them all. You play for years and pay for years. However at the end of the day, you require MORE time to make isk Vets don't grind for isk, they use their money to make money. Or they do minimal effort to rake in passive income. Or they use social connections (team, corp, alliance) to raise moneymaking efficiency. And even those that brute force grind like idiots can gather enough in a week or two to sustain them for months of pvp. The work-to-fun ratio is so out of whack that you're effectively complaining about a small subset of costs/penalties, when the overall loss isn't that harsh to begin with. Fact: EVE gets easier with time, even if your losses have more digits than before. Thats true for the average player, if its not true for you then you've got other issues to consider beyond clone costs. Even if it weren't true in general, thats not a valid reason to change things as rising challenge keeps player interest longer even if they whine like babies about it. Which brings me to the next.. Fact: The more you're made to suffer, the more you love it (even if you'll never admit it).
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2010.03.17 02:39:00 - [119] ^^that's how you tell someone you think they are wrong I'm not certain all your facts are facts DC, and I certainly (obviously) don't agree with you. But thanks for the well worded and well thought out post. Certainly some food for thought.
DigitalCommunist November Corporation	Posted - 2010.03.17 02:49:00 - [120] In the event that something were to actually change in the clone system, this is what I'd do: I would have three additional metrics added to clones, beyond skillpoint coverage. 1. Time - How long the clone contract lasts. Beyond this date, the contract needs to be renewed. Players can balance between expensive, but long contracts that have good isk/day ratios or cheap but short term contracts that are more suitable for people who die frequently. I'd probably use the same system to regulate insurance prices too. 2. Cooldown - If you get podded, it'll take x minutes or hours to recover. That is, you'd sit at clone station in software mode for a while until your new "hardware" is fully operational. For a bit of extra premium, you can cut this down so it doesn't affect your ability to get back. If you want, you can pay a premium AFTER you get podded to rush the process along (sort of like bribing the medical crew to give you VIP treatment), but its going to be significantly higher. Its also a stat that can give additional functionality to key strategic facilities owned by players, such as cloning outposts (cloning station upgrades) or supercapitals with cloning bays. It also sets up for future game mechanics, where stations or ships with cloning facilities have time queues that can only process clones at a certain rate. This prevents an entire alliance from crowding/blobbing itself into one single station, cause losing a major fight could put many of your prime characters out of action, letting the enemy go nuts in your space. Or conversely, it can be a penalty for basing your alliance out of NPC stations (which can process at a much lower rate than outposts). 3. Implant Recovery Factor - For a small premium, the chance of recovering intact implants increases. If you win most fights and hold the battlefield, this has an advantage. If you don't, its a disadvantage because you're paying more and then funding your enemies. Thus, for people who are actually good at their pvp, it reduces the "pvp upkeep" costs that is a fact of battle statistics. It also has the benefit of creating a secondary implant market that isn't directly dependent on NPC supply. In the future, it also sets you up for recovering "materials" for player implant production. NONE of the above suggestions are necessary, but its an example of how you can work to make the game systems more interesting, without nerfing the crap out of everything just because "PVP = FUN, MORE PVP = BETTER GAME" logic.

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