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Bloodwolf
M.A.R.S. Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.03.21 19:06:00 -
[241]
I really enjoy this discussion. But it gets boring if some who disagree only look at the topic with a narrow view and fail to adress things in their answers that they cant deny. That is one reason why this discussion goes around in circles.
Please, everyone who denies the need of changes reply to this question in your post :
Why do veterans need to be punished for skilling more with one char? What is the gameplay reason?
1.Is it revenge for them having a headstart?
2.Is it because of Epeen envy?
3.Is it because added versatility is so important that it justifies this steep cost scheme?
4.Is it because some people trained alts for flying frigs or doing other things and they dont want them to become useless?
Sure some people who play religiously might have a lot of money and incidentally have a lot of skillpoints.. but we shouldnt mix up the causality here. In fact it would be good if the QEN People would do some statistics as to whether SP have a real impact on money income beyond lets say 60m SP. I say the really important factor is time invested.
I suspect all of us like the idea of a sandbox and that is why we play eve. But a sandbox design means to give the player tools which he can use as he wishes. I argue that a sandbox is best if it offers more options to the users while still keeping its users interested in it. Should we decrease risk? Heck no, this would decrease eves followers. And decreasing risk would also lead eve out of its gameplay niche. But thats the point, this is not about decreasing risk. This is about changing a restrictive mechanic whoose reason of existence no one in this thread was able to state.
There were many ideas, and i suspect the best ones havent even been proposed yet. Deciding gameplay rules is like imposing a tax on citiziens. It will change their behaviour. But to reduce the players options for no good reason at all.. if you want risk put it on some factor that we can control. Like someone said before: How do I know beforehand which playstyle I like most? I think no one argues that accumulating skillpoints is the dominant strategy in eve.
Lets just assume the risk level stays the same after changes but it gets applied in a way that wont be a negative incentive to use smaller ships for vets. Who would be against that?
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2010.03.21 20:09:00 -
[242]
You are all dumb whiners. The reason a veteran's clone costs more, is because a veteran's character can do more things. More valuable char = more expensive clone. Anyone with a clone expensive enough to whine about is in a position to instantly generate billions, and really shouldn't whine in the first place.
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ISellThingz
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Posted - 2010.03.21 20:13:00 -
[243]
orly? I had no idea that SP is some income multiplier.
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Amberlamps
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Posted - 2010.03.21 20:30:00 -
[244]
 Originally by: ISellThingz
orly? I had no idea that SP is some income multiplier.
Me neither! Please tell us more oh glorious ones!
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Bloodwolf
M.A.R.S. Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.03.21 21:05:00 -
[245]
Many people seem to think that any change to clone costs would mean actually changing something from its former state. Please keep in mind that when those prices were implemented in 2008 most people did not have enough skillpoints to really feel the sting of the prices. The effects of the higher end clone prices is something that only recently effects players to a disturbing extend. That is also the reason why threads like this are made.
Eve had acceptable clone prices those past years because the bought clones were not of the higher grades. But it is only a matter of time until the ultimate money sink catches up to all of us. I do not believe for a second that anyone considers stopping to train skills. In fact the clone costs are a balance mechanic whoose effects change with the growth of average player skillpoints.
Therefore it will have an impact on how the playerbase behaves in the future.
The gameplay balance that all of us are used to is surely not higher than 20m per clone for the average player in eves population.. by that logic 20m would be a good high end clone price. 20m would not make you comfortably board a t1 cruiser.. but it also would not make you cringe at the thought of boarding a t1 bs.
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Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
United Corporations Of Modern Eve
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Posted - 2010.03.21 21:23:00 -
[246]
FFS get it through you fat skulls, that it isnt a punishment, but a revard for NO SKILL CAP, do you want a skill cap instead?
pvp whiners ftl!
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.03.21 21:35:00 -
[247]
Originally by: Bloodwolf
riff-raff, flim-flam .. bla bla bla
Yes, I bet you enjoy this discussion where you get to practise your word sophistry to run things in circle.
Why don't YOU tell everyone :
1. Why do you say 20mil@92 mil SP is too steep?
2. Why do you seem to imply that the average player is running at around 92mil SP?
3. Your estimation of how many players out there with 92mil SP?
4. Out of that 3. above, how many characters specifically with almost pure PVP skillsets?
5. Why do you feel entitled to hand-out, by running a scale where it costs 20mil isk for a 450mil clone?
If and when the whole bar moves, CCP will move it as they did in the past.
Until then, whine on something that'll actually improve the game. Do you need help with ideas on this?
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Bloodwolf
M.A.R.S. Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.03.21 22:15:00 -
[248]
Originally by: Sturmwolke
Originally by: Bloodwolf
riff-raff, flim-flam .. bla bla bla
...
Why don't YOU tell everyone :
1. Why do you say 20mil@92 mil SP is too steep?
2. Why do you seem to imply that the average player is running at around 92mil SP?
3. Your estimation of how many players out there with 92mil SP?
4. Out of that 3. above, how many characters specifically with almost pure PVP skillsets?
5. Why do you feel entitled to hand-out, by running a scale where it costs 20mil isk for a 450mil clone?
If and when the whole bar moves, CCP will move it as they did in the past.
...
Why do I get the impression that you only answer questions with questions? But although you did not answer any of my questions I will answer yours before I am off for a week.
1. Did I say that? I think the real problem is after 20m clone cost. After 60m skillpoints all you get is a little more diversity and as a drawback a geometric increase in clone cost. Yay for that!
2. I choose the clone cost of 20m as a worst case scenario. Actually I choose it that high in your favor, too bad you didnt notice. If we assume the average clone cost is at 10m than the resulting high end clone cost which would work well in the long run would have been much lower than 20m as well.
3. I suppose they are by no means a majority right now. But that is the problem they are getting more by the second. When I had 92m skillpoints I would not have started this thread. But seemingly there are now enough players with a problem that they keep this topic alive.
4. How should I know? Playing guessing games is probably not going to help. But no matter what they skilled they all bear the same clone costs.
5. I am not posting here to solve the problem once and for all. I am merely stating that there is a problem that should be adressed. And I am giving pointers as to what effect which prices have on a players incentive to fly certain ship classes.
I am sure that CCP will move the bar in one way or the other. I am also sure that one of the reasons why no dev has responded to this thread is because they want us to discuss about this. If they would take a side the discussion would end and they would have less input on that matter. Player manufactured clones are probably just around the corner, which we incidentally think since 2003. I wonder if those people who horded biomass will get something out of it in the end.
Well I am sure that the regulars will gladly argue with you about this topic as much as you like this coming week. But please try to answer some questions instead of evading by only asking your own. If you dont then you are the one who makes us go on in circles.
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Hamshoe
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Posted - 2010.03.22 03:20:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Bloodwolf
I really enjoy this discussion. But it gets boring if some who disagree only look at the topic with a narrow view and fail to adress things in their answers that they cant deny. That is one reason why this discussion goes around in circles.
Please, everyone who denies the need of changes reply to this question in your post :
Why do veterans need to be punished for skilling more with one char?
Eh, I'll deny your characterization of it as "punishment" and ask (sorry if it's been answered, tl;dr and all the rest), have clone costs increased? If so, when? Was this a situation you were tricked into?
It's a metric arseload of tears for one nice scam on CCP's part if that's the case. |
b1zz
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Posted - 2010.03.22 06:17:00 -
[250]
It's punishment when compared to the alternative of starting another toon.
1 toon with 100M SP = 30M ISK medical clone
2 toons with 50M SP each = 7.8M + 7.8M = 15.6M ISK total for both medical clones
It's an in-built game mechanic that encourages players to multi-box and metagame, rather than play one main toon and live with the consequences of their actions in the game and not jump from toon to toon when things get tough on one (lame asses  - ban alts, I say, then we'll see some tears).
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Wieting Foyu
Gallente
Foyu Trading World
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Posted - 2010.03.22 09:14:00 -
[251]
When I was a young pilot in his goo flying around in his rookie ship, I remember getting a massive 5k isk per kill. My sp was low so I could only kill the little bounties. Would have to kill 100 of those little buggers to update my clone to omicron. Now I can kill the 5m isk bounties with higher sp. Now I have to kill a whopping 20 just for the Omega. If they are going to exponentially increase bounties (and remember this is just one part of the sandbox) then the current increase per clone is LESS than it should be. Being able to keep those skills should reflect in clone insurance costs.
No one is forcing you to update the clone so it isn't a "punishment" as so many have stated. And you don't lose ALL of your sp so when podded you aren't a new player.
I don't need alts or dual boxing or even use the other two slots. I have been podded plenty of times, once even forgot to update clone. It is part of the game and this game is supposed to be very consequential.
The biggest rule of the game is "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" that doesn't just apply to ships that applies to your clone as well.
I pay the omega fee all the time and I only have 40m sp. 120m isk people. That's 10% the cost of my slave set. Even if you are super unlucky and get podded 5 times in a week that is only half a billion. If you are pvp'ing in 0.0 and can't make up the loss then move back to high sec where your precious pod won't get stuck in a bubble.
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Mieryn Caval
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Posted - 2010.03.22 13:56:00 -
[252]
Originally by: Wieting Foyu
If you are pvp'ing in 0.0 and can't make up the loss then move back to high sec where your precious pod won't get stuck in a bubble.
Well, I for one would like to see more people flying around in 0.0 - not fewer. And I think it would be even greater if those pilots flew around in t1 frigs and cruisers as often as they did t2 variants, even if that means a slightly higher risk of getting podded.
Pods being immune to non-targeted interdiction is a neat idea, but it might mean quite a few npc corp pod scouts and I don't know if that's very much fun. Maybe a ten or fifteen second immunity after the ship goes pop?
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M'ktakh
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Posted - 2010.03.22 18:13:00 -
[253]
Do the clone cost follow the idea of diminishing returns, that is, does the clone cost increase steeper than linear with SP kept?
If yes, shut up.
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Myz Toyou
APOCALYPSE LEGION
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Posted - 2010.03.22 18:27:00 -
[254]
I guess the ones that are whining here about the clone costs for higher SPs are the ones who got said high SP character via daddy`s credit card but daddy`s credit card sadly can`t buy ingame skill to use the characters to fund themself.
Darwin strikes again.
WoW ---> that way.
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mishkof
Caldari
Emerald Empire
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Posted - 2010.03.22 18:54:00 -
[255]
Clone costs are pretty insane at higher levels. I would support a reduction in costs in the name of more PVP with my main characters.
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mishkof
Caldari
Emerald Empire
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Posted - 2010.03.22 19:04:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Myz Toyou
I guess the ones that are whining here about the clone costs for higher SPs are the ones who got said high SP character via daddy`s credit card but daddy`s credit card sadly can`t buy ingame skill to use the characters to fund themself.
Darwin strikes again.
WoW ---> that way.
You are obviously a no lifer virgin power gamer. All because you support the current clone costs. 
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.03.22 19:09:00 -
[257]
I've never known anyone, ever to not PvP because of clone costs
On top of ship and implant losses, it's really nothing at all unless you're dying everyday.
You have a point for people who want to fly about in T1 frigs and cruisers in 0.0, but...
- Malyutka (The Virus) - |
Pelorn
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Posted - 2010.03.22 19:16:00 -
[258]
All in all, no matter how you spin it, clone costs are indeed "punishing" older players for PvP'ing on their main.
If your clone costs $20 mil, can you go take a Rifter and solo in null sec? Well, technically yes, but does it make sense to do so? Not by any means.
"But players with more skillpoints should be able to make so much isk it doesn't matter".
Well, here's the thing: not everyone enjoys being a carebear. Sure, maybe the older player could easily make the isk to pay for those $20 mil Rifters, but they would have to mission/rat/etc to do so. For someone who enjoys PvP, forcing them to PvE IS PUNISHMENT.
The carebears in the thread continue arguing the point because they don't realize that not everyone enjoys shooting rats for hours on end. Please go read the OP if you want to argue this:
Quote:
The rebuttal is that older players have amassed more wealth, can make isk more easily (?) and this mitigates any possible skewing of fairness for clone costs.
But, reducing clone costs would not only remove this unnecessary "punishment" for older characters PvP'ing, it would actually have some positive benefits:
-More active experienced PvP'ers
-More active SOLO PvP. The fashion of PvP atm is "the blob", which is not ideal IMO
-Influx of older PvP characters flying cheaper ships means a PvP noob can hold their ground more easily
-Older characters would be used more, players would subscribe longer
I post this from the perspective of a 9 mil SP character who has never even bought a battleship skillbook, nor has any desire to. I have a second account that carebears to pay for my PvP; the necessity of which is an ugly streak on this rather beautiful game.
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Myz Toyou
APOCALYPSE LEGION
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Posted - 2010.03.22 20:05:00 -
[259]
Edited by: Myz Toyou on 22/03/2010 20:09:20
Originally by: mishkof
Originally by: Myz Toyou
I guess the ones that are whining here about the clone costs for higher SPs are the ones who got said high SP character via daddy`s credit card but daddy`s credit card sadly can`t buy ingame skill to use the characters to fund themself.
Darwin strikes again.
WoW ---> that way.
You are obviously a no lifer virgin power gamer. All because you support the current clone costs.
Infact, I¦m the mature/married average gamer but I have learned how not to lose my pod + implants on a daily basis and no one should lose a pod in empire, 0.0 with dictors is a different story. But if you live in 0.0, getting isk to refund your pod losses shouldnt be a problem, if it is, you doing it wrong.
Edit: What`s next ? Whineing about your lost implants and CCP should respawn them in your head when you wake up in your clonebay ? This game is about punishment and not a no brainer like other MMO`s are.
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Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.03.23 00:27:00 -
[260]
Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 23/03/2010 00:30:32
Originally by: Myz Toyou
I guess the ones that are whining here about the clone costs for higher SPs are the ones who got said high SP character via daddy`s credit card but daddy`s credit card sadly can`t buy ingame skill to use the characters to fund themself.
Nice ad hominem. Don't argue the point just try to discredit the person. You certainly credit your argument here.
I'm an adult (started Eve when I was 24 in 2004). I got to see and fall in love with tempests when they were good. You could also fit 3 quad lifs for lols. I fought bob before it was cool, I shot at the first spawned dreadnought, I fought with bob (despite it never being cool) and have been active (with expected breaks) with my main alone to today. I've paid for my account with my job, which I've also held since 2004.
Just, you know, rubbing that in your face since you didn't rtft and pick up on the last few ad hominems I discredited.
Originally by: Myz Toyou
Infact, I¦m the mature/married average gamer but I have learned how not to lose my pod + implants on a daily basis and no one should lose a pod in empire
I don't disagree here.
If your doing it right you shouldn't lose pods every day, or really ever in lowsec or empire.
If your doing it right you should be able to make some isk. (thread obviously pending agreeable rates/hr)
This may come as a shock to you, I think pods should continue to cost you isk. I also like some of the other ideas in this thread that provide other solutions to mitigate the cost through other avenues aside from lowering the scale (that was just my idea)
I simply think the current scale is punishing.
REAL PvP isk loss should focus on the ships and fits and implants and all those things we already have.
Originally by: Myz Toyou
, 0.0 with dictors is a different story. But if you live in 0.0, getting isk to refund your pod losses shouldnt be a problem, if it is, you doing it wrong.
0.0 is a different story isn't it 
Another 'doing it wrong' purist?
You know, the whole: "You'd be successful if you were playing the way I think you should be playing."
then at the same time: "Who is this game ruining insane moron OP to dare suggest they play the game they way they think they should be playing?"
The past several pages have more than enough explanation that I subscribe to every single axiom that makes Eve Eve and that I'd never want it any other way.
But please, don't let that stop your cognitive dissonance.
As a person that has played for 6 years I've tried to supply you with some insight on the mentality and habits of older players.
After that extent of time you take breaks, you want to do different things and current costs do restrict you from some of the more fun aspects of the game.
Yes I should lose isk when I pvp.
Yes I should have to go make isk.
You cannot deny the logic that older players that sometimes are looking for a reason to keep playing get a kick to the shins when they want low cost pvp.
(clarify: low cost pvp as in low cost, low ability/survivability ships.... or as you would interpret, ccp just spawning stuff for me for free or whatever wild tangent your shaky logic and poorly thought out arguments take you. )
For the umpteenth time, I'm not suggesting ZERGING HIGH SP CHARS FALLING FROM THE SKY as a previous knucklehead suggested, but I should be able to fly a ceptor in 0.0 without knowing one mistake and I'm losing (without implants) many magnitudes more isk than a ceptor loss is intended to cost someone.
You say that added clone costs is intended, I say it isn't and we yell until CCP clarifies /rinse & repeat
The cost for pvp loss is there.
You wanna fly rich, fly rich.
You wanna fly cheap, fly cheap
..... UNLESS YOU ARE A HIGH SP CHAR, then go play alts online? Eat the loss because the punishment is expected for 6 years of dedication to my main?
Some buy that argument, many others here do not.
"A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game." |
Ephemeron
Retribution Corp.
Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.03.23 01:00:00 -
[261]
Quote:
Yes I should lose isk when I pvp.
Yes I should have to go make isk.
You cannot deny the logic that older players that sometimes are looking for a reason to keep playing get a kick to the shins when they want low cost pvp.
(clarify: low cost pvp as in low cost, low ability/survivability ships.... or as you would interpret, ccp just spawning stuff for me for free or whatever wild tangent your shaky logic and poorly thought out arguments take you. Rolling Eyes)
You can already do all that without game modification - each account comes with 2 alts. Those 2 alts can train some basic skills to operate low cost ships, and their clones are going to be very low cost as well.
I don't think it's very thoughtful of you to demand game modification for everyone on the grounds that sometimes, some high skill player wants low cost pvp, and not smart enough to figure out how to use alts, or just too lazy, please CCP change game for everyone.
It's carebear mentality
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Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.03.23 01:14:00 -
[262]
Originally by: Wieting Foyu
When I was a young pilot in his goo flying around in his rookie ship, I remember getting a massive 5k isk per kill. My sp was low so I could only kill the little bounties. Would have to kill 100 of those little buggers to update my clone to omicron. Now I can kill the 5m isk bounties with higher sp. Now I have to kill a whopping 20 just for the Omega. If they are going to exponentially increase bounties (and remember this is just one part of the sandbox) then the current increase per clone is LESS than it should be. Being able to keep those skills should reflect in clone insurance costs.
Please read this a few times and then rewrite an actual sensical argument.
You start off with one suggestion then finish with an obvious statement everyone agrees with.
NPC bounties should be the sole basis for clone costs? What are you saying here?
Also, you buy Omega clones? (I know, your not saying what you mean. We will discuss this more a little further down)
Originally by: Wieting Foyu
I don't need alts or dual boxing or even use the other two slots. I have been podded plenty of times, once even forgot to update clone. It is part of the game and this game is supposed to be very consequential.
The biggest rule of the game is "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" that doesn't just apply to ships that applies to your clone as well.
First, sorry for your loss.
Second, No argument here.
-I agree alts aren't needed and I don't use them for anything in-game. They are an accepted part of the game, provide needed income to CCP and they aren't leaving. They also aren't (in my opinion) an acceptable alternative to the 'veteran condition' I'm arguing here.
We are discussing the specific cost of that clone. Not the need for a cost (we all agree there).
You haven't provided any real definitive argument support a reason for the status quo. (ie: I think xx mil isk is needed and balanced because of x,y,z,etc). You just say "it should cost what it costs now" with no supporting argument. Just argument ad nauseam.
Originally by: Wieting Foyu
I pay the omega fee all the time and I only have 40m sp. 120m isk people. That's 10% the cost of my slave set. Even if you are super unlucky and get podded 5 times in a week that is only half a billion. If you are pvp'ing in 0.0 and can't make up the loss then move back to high sec where your precious pod won't get stuck in a bubble.
I love it. Just... wow.
The bold part immediately followed by an argument by dismissal. Pure gold.
Back to that first sentence. You pay the omega fee because your hardcore and like expensive clones? Or you pay that cost through the fact you fit slave sets?
I love the cost of implants and they should stay.
You wanna fly expensive? That's your right and you obviously exercise it.
I want to fly cheap? I don't have an option with my character.
Surely you see where there is room for both ideas?
The pvp costs remain however the logic PURELY for SP Saved diverges?
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
I've never known anyone, ever to not PvP because of clone costs
On top of ship and implant losses, it's really nothing at all unless you're dying everyday.
aka
-I don't know anyone personally that told me this is an issue (aside from half the people in this thread) = this isn't an issue.
-dying isn't an issue unless you are pvping and dying
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
You have a point for people who want to fly about in T1 frigs and cruisers in 0.0, but...
but.... god forbid I have a point?
Sorry I couldn't resist. I know what your implying and agree, yes t1 frigs are a stretch to expect all pvp cost translation can be expected through the ship and fit alone across the SP board. However, T1 cruisers are great pvp. (Bit of a paper kite, but fun none the less.)
The argument certainly isn't isolated to those two however. I am thinking primarily of Intys, AFs and similar combat roles.
"A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game." |
Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.03.23 01:30:00 -
[263]
Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 23/03/2010 01:32:01
oh nevermind ephemeron 
interweb search the orig if you really want the counterpoint. you have your opinion and are entitled to that.
"A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game." |
Ephemeron
Retribution Corp.
Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.03.23 01:37:00 -
[264]
There is no logically right or wrong answer here. This is ideology. Either you believe in carebearism or you believe in hardcore game style.
No amount of arguments is going to turn me carebear
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Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.03.23 01:48:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Ephemeron
There is no logically right or wrong answer here. This is ideology. Either you believe in carebearism or you believe in hardcore game style.
No amount of arguments is going to turn me carebear
My last reply to you in assembly:
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
The rate of increase for combat advantage and clone cost is in no way complimentary of each other. If it was, I would run around mauling low SP ppl in my solopwnmobile bs.
It should cost. We agree there.
In my GD thread I've tried to relay logical arguments on what I think would be balanced. Others suggest their own.
What they are suggesting you don't understand is the divide between ship,fit,implant,booster,whatever costs that have a clear and distinct combat advantage and the completely different (see my first 2 sentences here) that simply HAVING SP somehow gains you a near exponential combat advantage.
Yes, there are two equally valid and opposing opinions.
There are also logical arguments to be made regarding specific costs, rates and whether they translate into any measurable combat advantage.
Your opinion may equally counter my opinion, but don't suggest your opinion can equally counter logic.
No name calling, suggesting we are turning you gheycarebear, we are ruining the game or WHATEVER can validate that for you.
"A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game." |
Wieting Foyu
Gallente
Foyu Trading World
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Posted - 2010.03.23 01:59:00 -
[266]
Ok since my point was lost to princess in the previous post let's try again.
The costs should stay the same BECAUSE..
The starting points (read low sp) you only have enough skill power to kill the easy rats, mine the low end roids, run low end missions, produce low end t1 ships/mods with one slot, and only have a few market orders to play with. Meaning you can only make a small amount of isk/hour. As skills (some costing more than the Omega price of 120m) get higher, you then can kill harder rats, mine higher roids faster (and better refining), run higher missions, produce t2 mods/ships with multi slots, and have over 10x the amount of market orders. All of these are exponentially increasing your isk/hour potential. Again you aren't losing ALL of your skill points if you don't update the clone. So if you can't afford the clone price at the exact moment go make the money.
The argument that you shouldn't have to grind to pay for your pvp is a point that doesn't compute. How did you pay for your high skills/ships/mods if you didn't grind something to begin with? There is no way to use your rookie ship just to go pvp and collect loot to pay for skills/ships/mods. And if you did then I would really like to see your fittings for the ibis of doom.
Just to answer your question. The only reason I personally decide to pay the Omega price of 120m for my measly 40m sp is because I like being the butt of my corps jokes when the cost of exploding is determined (highest so far is 16b in a vindicator with full grade slaves and couple officer mods.. yes showing epeen). Not saying everyone should do it for same reason, I just mentioned it because it isn't that high of a price to me and I still got 3yrs of training to get to that point.
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp.
Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.03.23 02:09:00 -
[267]
Well, logical arguments are amusing, mostly cause they are always based on unproven assumptions, so I'll indulge
Quote:
The rate of increase for combat advantage and clone cost is in no way complimentary of each other. If it was, I would run around mauling low SP ppl in my solopwnmobile bs.
It should cost. We agree there.
In my GD thread I've tried to relay logical arguments on what I think would be balanced. Others suggest their own.
What they are suggesting you don't understand is the divide between ship,fit,implant,booster,whatever costs that have a clear and distinct combat advantage and the completely different (see my first 2 sentences here) that simply HAVING SP somehow gains you a near exponential combat advantage.
Can you provide example data that would satisfy your definition of "complementary"?
The difference between low level character and high level one is often the amount of level 5 skills vs level 4 skills. That level 5 skill typically means 5% increase in some useful quality. Having a difference of 10 level 5 skills means extra 5% in 10 different qualities. They can add up to quite significant advantage.
Just as faction mods significantly scale in price with each 5% increase in quality over t2 variant, the clone price also increases. But even so, comparing faction mod prices to clone value shows how cheap you pay for the high sp clone. Otherwise 80 mil sp should have cost 50 mil at least. Just to follow the pattern of combat advantage vs price.
Or perhaps do you want to argue that faction prices are not complementary to their usefulness as well?
If I choose to, I can get a sologank battleship and kill low sp, low cost noobies right and left. Perhaps 5 on 1 at a time. It's definitely possible if you know what you are doing. I am pretty sure there are killboard logs that show me doing just that.
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Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.03.23 02:13:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Wieting Foyu
Ok since my point was lost to princess in the previous post let's try again.
The costs should stay the same BECAUSE..
The starting points (read low sp) you only have enough skill power to kill the easy rats, mine the low end roids, run low end missions, produce low end t1 ships/mods with one slot, and only have a few market orders to play with. Meaning you can only make a small amount of isk/hour. As skills (some costing more than the Omega price of 120m) get higher, you then can kill harder rats, mine higher roids faster (and better refining), run higher missions, produce t2 mods/ships with multi slots, and have over 10x the amount of market orders. All of these are exponentially increasing your isk/hour potential. Again you aren't losing ALL of your skill points if you don't update the clone. So if you can't afford the clone price at the exact moment go make the money.
The argument that you shouldn't have to grind to pay for your pvp is a point that doesn't compute. How did you pay for your high skills/ships/mods if you didn't grind something to begin with? There is no way to use your rookie ship just to go pvp and collect loot to pay for skills/ships/mods. And if you did then I would really like to see your fittings for the ibis of doom.
Just to answer your question. The only reason I personally decide to pay the Omega price of 120m for my measly 40m sp is because I like being the butt of my corps jokes when the cost of exploding is determined (highest so far is 16b in a vindicator with full grade slaves and couple officer mods.. yes showing epeen). Not saying everyone should do it for same reason, I just mentioned it because it isn't that high of a price to me and I still got 3yrs of training to get to that point.
Your point wasn't lost, just very unclear and the explanation definitely fills in the blanks.
Suggesting that the isk increase is justified because of the direct increase in ability to make isk is a valid point, I won't deny you that. I'm still not sure if the rates are justified but we will leave it at that.
I'm not saying you shouldn't grind for pvp. You make my point in the second paragraph that you do need to grind already for you pvp ability. The function is there through all of those aspects already.
3rd paragraph, that is weird and masochistic. But it's eve and your entitled to that.
I want to pay for my SP kept, but I want to pay a fair price for my SP kep.
Just as your entitled to be as hardcore in your high cost pvp as you are, I'm suggesting that after 5-6-7+ years, vets should be entitled to reasonably low cost pvp like everyone else. Nothing more, nothing less.
"A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game." |
Wieting Foyu
Gallente
Foyu Trading World
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Posted - 2010.03.23 02:28:00 -
[269]
Eh more that I actually am ok with losing lots to an explosion cause I find it fun personally (and sometimes funny). And if you can blow me up then you deserve the nice payday.
Glad you see my point. Not trying to change minds just giving my position and why I feel that way.
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Hamshoe
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Posted - 2010.03.23 02:35:00 -
[270]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
...
I'm suggesting that after 5-6-7+ years, vets should be entitled to reasonably low cost pvp like everyone else. Nothing more, nothing less.
Seems reasonable. What would you say to a mechanic that allowed you to dump the SP you don't want to pay for?
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