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Clone Costs - Punishing veterans for continuing to play?

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Necronara	Posted - 2010.03.17 16:59:00 - [151] clone costs scare me i will never leave high-sec. Eve is a PVE game duh
Tulisin Dragonflame	Posted - 2010.03.17 17:06:00 - [152] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Aarin Wrath Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton and explain to me why 100m sp chars should have cheap clones? whining that flying a frigate loses you money isn't a very good reason imo. Well how about you explain to us why 100m sp chars should have exponentially more expensive clones and not just "more expensive" clones that everyone else? Most things in EVE are exponentially more expensive for incremental advantages. Why should clones be different? In any given situation, a high-SP player is only using a fraction of their SP to pilot whatever they're actually flying though. Having fully-trained titan skills is of no consequence in a roaming HAC gang, but it'll increase your risk just for lulz.
b1zz	Posted - 2010.03.17 17:25:00 - [153] OP has a point. 3 year old character has max skills for: Rifter Tristan Merlin Punisher 6 month old character has max skills for: Rifter From a 1v1 standpoint the 6 month old character has few disadvatages, just less choice as to which ship he chooses for the engagement, and yet his clone cost is much much lower. The basic point is that you should not be punished for loyalty to the game; you should be rewarded, not with dominance over younger toons, but with more freedom and choice within the game. The clone cost system certainly needs some improvements, possibly at the top-end costs should be starting to plateau as the technology reaches perfection stage. (And for the love of god, enough with the carebear rebuttals - you are not automatically right because you are hardcore. Answer the points made so those in favour can reply to them, if your arguments have any merit they should be able to withstand counter arguments.)
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.03.17 17:39:00 - [154] Edited by: James Tritanius on 17/03/2010 17:40:25 Originally by: b1zz OP has a point. 3 year old character has max skills for: Rifter Tristan Merlin Punisher 6 month old character has max skills for: Rifter From a 1v1 standpoint the 6 month old character has few disadvatages, just less choice as to which ship he chooses for the engagement, and yet his clone cost is much much lower. The basic point is that you should not be punished for loyalty to the game; you should be rewarded, not with dominance over younger toons, but with more freedom and choice within the game. The clone cost system certainly needs some improvements, possibly at the top-end costs should be starting to plateau as the technology reaches perfection stage. So here's your argument, condensed: " - A 3-year old character in a Rifter is as effective as a 6-month old character in a Rifter. - Since their effectiveness is the same, their risk should also be the same - The 3-year old character risks more in clone costs. (Problem) > Therefore, the logical solution to this problem is to make clone costs constant for both players. " Do you see any problems with it?
Ghoest	Posted - 2010.03.17 17:45:00 - [155] Originally by: b1zz OP has a point. 3 year old character has max skills for: Rifter Tristan Merlin Punisher 6 month old character has max skills for: Rifter From a 1v1 standpoint the 6 month old character has few disadvatages, just less choice as to which ship he chooses for the engagement, and yet his clone cost is much much lower. The basic point is that you should not be punished for loyalty to the game; you should be rewarded, not with dominance over younger toons, but with more freedom and choice within the game. The clone cost system certainly needs some improvements, possibly at the top-end costs should be starting to plateau as the technology reaches perfection stage. (And for the love of god, enough with the carebear rebuttals - you are not automatically right because you are hardcore. Answer the points made so those in favour can reply to them, if your arguments have any merit they should be able to withstand counter arguments.) After 20 million sp - no. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.03.17 17:48:00 - [156] Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 17/03/2010 17:53:53 Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia "well be more active and make more isk then", that is fair and I'm not knocking your point. But pvp loss is STILL there through so many avenues, the current rate of clone costs is silly.... ...All the fears and slippery slope interpretations regarding clone costs simply don't hold water. But they aren't that silly. At 100+ SP you should be flying something worth at least a billion isk, and have implants worth a small fortune as well, so getting podded and having to pay for a new clone is really the least of your losses. It's also easy to avoid situations where you might be killed if you can't afford it. As for the slippery slope thing, it is a valid point. Look at how people just want more and more time on the skillqueue now that we have one. Even changing the model for the scorpion made people insist it be done to all other asymmetrical ships. For the record i do agree with your main point, although only in relation to the very high end clone prices, but sadly it's in the best interests of CCP to stick to their guns on this matter because it would only inspire crowds of people to start making similar demands ad nauseum. My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.17 17:53:00 - [157] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 17/03/2010 17:53:44 Originally by: Professor Tarantula But they aren't that silly. At 100+ SP you should be flying something worth at least a billion isk, and have implants worth a small fortune as well, so getting podded and having to pay for a new clone is really the least of your losses Who says I should be "forced" to fly something worth a billion ISK if I've got 100M SP? What, I'm no longer allowed to fly a Drake or Hurricane because you somehow feel it's a waste of my SP? I'm no longer allowed to fly a dictor (even pimped out to a billion+ ISK) because you WILL lose your pod every time you die? Telling someone that they SHOULD be flying a billion ISK ship just because they have high SP is **ING WRONG AND STUPID. -Liang Ed: Formatting -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.03.17 17:56:00 - [158] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 17/03/2010 17:53:44 Originally by: Professor Tarantula But they aren't that silly. At 100+ SP you should be flying something worth at least a billion isk, and have implants worth a small fortune as well, so getting podded and having to pay for a new clone is really the least of your losses Who says I should be "forced" to fly something worth a billion ISK if I've got 100M SP? What, I'm no longer allowed to fly a Drake or Hurricane because you somehow feel it's a waste of my SP? I'm no longer allowed to fly a dictor (even pimped out to a billion+ ISK) because you WILL lose your pod every time you die? Telling someone that they SHOULD be flying a billion ISK ship just because they have high SP is ****ING WRONG AND STUPID. -Liang Ed: Formatting You'll be much harder to kill in an expensive ship, so consider it an investment towards protecting your clone. My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.17 18:00:00 - [159] Originally by: Professor Tarantula You'll be much harder to kill in an expensive ship, so consider it an investment towards protecting your clone. What? Dude, your argument is complete bull**. Just because you have a high SP count doesn't mean that you SHOULD be in a super expensive ship. What, just because you have 100M SP, you have "no excuse" but to be in a faction BS in the middle of a frig gang? Yea, good ing thinking there slick. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.03.17 18:03:00 - [160] Look Liang, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think things over. My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Ghoest	Posted - 2010.03.17 18:07:00 - [161] Originally by: Professor Tarantula But they aren't that silly. At 100+ SP you should be flying something worth at least a billion isk, and have implants worth a small fortune as well, Why? Because thats how you say everyone should play? Because thats the level of achievement you demand? The expodential increase in clone costs was created at the beginning of EVE. At that time the game was designed for expodential increase in ability as you skilled up. About 2-3 years in CCP decided that was a bad plan because newbs suwould never catch up. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.03.17 18:10:00 - [162] Why would you need that many SP if you have no interest in flying expensive ships? It doesn't make any sense. Here's a new idea: Just stop training things after you can fly a Rifter properly, this will keep your clone prices cheap. My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.17 18:12:00 - [163] Originally by: Professor Tarantula Why would you need that many SP if you have no interest in flying expensive ships? Because you want to fly many ships? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.03.17 18:15:00 - [164] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Professor Tarantula Why would you need that many SP if you have no interest in flying expensive ships? Because you want to fly many ships? You can train every race upto battleship level and still not be paying alot for your clones. My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.17 18:20:00 - [165] Originally by: Professor Tarantula Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Professor Tarantula Why would you need that many SP if you have no interest in flying expensive ships? Because you want to fly many ships? You can train every race upto battleship level and still not be paying alot for your clones. …including all the various bits and pieces that you'd might want to tack onto them to fulfil their every role? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Scarlet Crimson	Posted - 2010.03.17 18:22:00 - [166] IMO clone upgrades should be paid for as you progress ( as it is ), but once it is all your clones should have it included. Nothing says "I quit", like a player loosing years worth of training ( and monthy payments )due to this. I do not care how nub or scrub you think that person may be for not having the iskies or forgetting to pay before leaving the station, the consequence is to high to be deserved for being a "dumbass".
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.03.17 18:27:00 - [167] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Professor Tarantula Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Professor Tarantula Why would you need that many SP if you have no interest in flying expensive ships? Because you want to fly many ships? You can train every race upto battleship level and still not be paying alot for your clones. àincluding all the various bits and pieces that you'd might want to tack onto them to fulfil their every role? hmm I'm doing that and am right around 58mil sp, still a long ways to go, oh and need to do another cruiser/bs 5, missile skills, and 3 frig 5s. that's just in per/wp skills, loads of ewar skills to do after I remap to int/mem! so that should be what ~80mil sp?
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.03.17 18:32:00 - [168] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Professor Tarantula Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Professor Tarantula Why would you need that many SP if you have no interest in flying expensive ships? Because you want to fly many ships? You can train every race upto battleship level and still not be paying alot for your clones. àincluding all the various bits and pieces that you'd might want to tack onto them to fulfil their every role? Sure. It takes a helluva lot more training than that to need the expensive clones. My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Mashie Saldana Red Federation	Posted - 2010.03.17 18:38:00 - [169] Edited by: Mashie Saldana on 17/03/2010 18:40:18 Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton so that should be what ~80mil sp? To be maxed out in BS and below (just for pvp) you will need about 180m SP. Contact me for custom [eb] signatures.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.03.17 18:42:00 - [170] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton so that should be what ~80mil sp? To be maxed out in BS and below you will need about 180m SP. I wasn't going to say Maxed out, but reasonably competent (t2 weapons with spec skills at 4, and t2 fit). although I guess now I'm going to have to do most gunnery specs to 5 at some point
Savatar Mei	Posted - 2010.03.17 18:47:00 - [171] Originally by: OwMy Bawls This is where your point falls apart. The potential amount of isk available to an older player IS much greater. You compare the wallets of a come-and-go newb to a come-and-go vet and guess whose will be bigger? Compare the wallets between a hardcore newb and a hardcore vet. Again, guess which one will be bigger? posting ur opinion like its fact eh? if its a fact prove it, linky linky plz!! otherwise, stop spouting bullllsheeeeiaatttt
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.03.17 18:49:00 - [172] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton hmm I'm doing that and am right around 58mil sp, still a long ways to go, oh and need to do another cruiser/bs 5, missile skills, and 3 frig 5s. that's just in per/wp skills, loads of ewar skills to do after I remap to int/mem! so that should be what ~80mil sp? You're losing track of some SP somewhere. I've gone much further with much less. My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.17 18:52:00 - [173] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 17/03/2010 18:54:53 Originally by: Professor Tarantula Look Liang, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think things over. Actually, I could give a ** about this topic. I'm more ed at my boss and every time he speaks to me it makes me want to kill a kitten. Seriously, "All janitors are mexicans and mexicans can't read". YEAH WELL YOU BUDDY. ing ***. And that's before we get into the **ed ideas for "helping". -Liang Ed: And he came over and talked to me like 30 seconds after I posted this. WHERE IS THE NEXT KITTEN DAMMIT -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.17 19:00:00 - [174] To be slightly more constructive: I have no trouble paying for clone costs. I rarely get podded, and the last few times it's happened I lamented my hardwirings enough that I didn't even notice the cost of my clone. But the argument of it being too expensive to risk a high SP clone on a dictor or frig gang is a very good one. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2010.03.17 19:14:00 - [175] To the OP and those of you that support the suggestions made therein: HTFU!
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.03.17 19:32:00 - [176] Originally by: Professor Tarantula Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton hmm I'm doing that and am right around 58mil sp, still a long ways to go, oh and need to do another cruiser/bs 5, missile skills, and 3 frig 5s. that's just in per/wp skills, loads of ewar skills to do after I remap to int/mem! so that should be what ~80mil sp? You're losing track of some SP somewhere. I've gone much further with much less. all frig/cruiser/bc/bs 5, all t2 guns/launchers, with maxed support skills, tank skills, few mil in drones, gotta have heavies and sentries II, while you are there might as well finish off drone interfacing 5. throw in hac and recon 5 for fun, maybe even a few others. few mil in electronics, gotta support that recon5. dunno, just going off my skills plus another year or so, at 20mil sp/year.
Feone	Posted - 2010.03.17 20:23:00 - [177] Originally by: Mr Kidd To the OP and those of you that support the suggestions made therein: HTFU! This, this idea has been brought up at least 2x if the OP isn't one of the 2x people I saw do it already. It doesn't cost that much unless you are at the far end of the spectrum and even then it isn't insane like a billion isk. Stop training level 5 on every gunnery skill or whatever it is you do that lets you play for so many years but not figure out how to make isk passively or with little effort(time vs reward). Train some industry/trade/science skills and try a new aspect of the game that opens the door for you to make more isk or stop complaining about how expensive it is for you to pvp in your main. There's nothing like hearing x year old vets complaining about how expensive things are. TLDR: My cat's breath smells like catfood.
tla s'hpyt	Posted - 2010.03.17 23:01:00 - [178] So far in this thread I've seen a few things that are just plain wrong. Quote: All old players fly capitals Yes cause this is capitals online \o/ Quote: All old players are hardcore experts Cause no one would ever burn out and start playing less right? Quote: All old players are experts in passive income which of these methods isn't available for someone at 20 mil sp? hell a lot of these methods require very little sp at all, and are mostly about the way you play the game. Quote: All old players have the above advantages over young players, these are all unfair and evil and they should be punished for them by having higher clone cost. So we make a bunch of assumptions about a group of players then decide the assumptions we make validate them recieving some kind of punishment. Do I seriously need to bring Godwin's law into this argument?
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2010.03.17 23:12:00 - [179] This looks like an opportune time to remind people about the Making ISK guide on the EVElopedia. As you grow in SP, you should be growing your passive/AFK ISK generation capacity. Are people seriously complaining about 120M ISK for a clone, when the clone they just lost is likely to have a billion ISK of implants, flying a billion ISK ship with about a billion ISK of faction/deadspace fittings? Which means it's also time to remind people about the usual EVE combat pilox maxims: Don't fly what you can't afford to lose; Don't carry cargo worth more than the hull; Spend as much on the tank as you did on the hull. 120m ISK clones means you just have to be serious about logging in. Roll a FW alt if you want casual pew-pew. [Aussie players: join channels ANZAC or AUSSIES]
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.03.17 23:18:00 - [180] THIS THREAD

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