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Nerfing fun: Dramiel

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inVictu5 Globo Gym Purple Cobras	Posted - 2010.03.30 12:30:00 - [91] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Zahira Wrath Originally by: inVictu5 this is what it has come down too. Linkage Wow that's crazy. Definitly a sign that something isent right balance wise. (diversity and fun my ass, its now "those with dramiels" vs. "those without") Hrmmm, lets disect this killmail for what it really is. Random ship gets tackled by a rapier and it just so happens that the majority of the gang is in drams which go on the kill the cormy which by all rights the rapier could have done on its own with just 5 terribad skilled t1 light amarr drones which are the worst drones in the game. So by this logic if all the other ships on the killmail had been noobships then noobships would be op and zomg need to be nerfed? L U L Z . . The forums provide so much entertainment its just silly at times and it makes me want to send ccp extra monies each month for the pleasure all the morons who poast such drivel give me. No. A cormy can run from a rapier unless its remote sensor boosted which means you could scan it down prior to arriving at its location. Any decent dessie pvper stays aligned just in case unless engaging a target. You would know this but I have a feeling u dont solo roam 0.0. As that takes intestinal fortitude which many eve players dont have. The rapier was the last to engage, thus why the dps is so slow... Here at Globo Gym were better than you! And we know it
Nabiah	Posted - 2010.05.24 15:46:00 - [92] Edited by: Nabiah on 24/05/2010 15:51:40 Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Assuming a situation where you have the money and skills to fly any frigate: Justify flying anything but a Dramiel. Really, try it. CCP TRY IT ! or clean your own MEss ! Now the very same people that were complaining about the AF ab speed bonus fly nothing but Dramiels. So now we have the "please-dont-nerf-the-dramiel-orill-cut-my-vains!" campaign. About the price, if CCP decides to boost eny item making it the FOTM everyone will want it so sellers will try to get more ISK from selling it. Its not the-item-is-so-good-because-its-expensive. Its the item is expensive because everybody wants it. Why do we need complicated solution to solve the one ship problem that causes the imbalance when the solution is so obvious.
Kiri Serrensun	Posted - 2010.05.24 16:10:00 - [93] Originally by: Wet Ferret Nerfing OP only becomes "nerfing fun" when you know it's OP and you have to resort to guilt tactics to try to save your overpowered toys. History always repeats itself around here... Well, in fairness, winning is usually fun.
Zions Child Caldari Carthage Industries	Posted - 2010.05.24 16:23:00 - [94] Originally by: Nabiah Edited by: Nabiah on 24/05/2010 15:51:40 Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Assuming a situation where you have the money and skills to fly any frigate: Justify flying anything but a Dramiel. Really, try it. CCP TRY IT ! or clean your own MEss ! Now the very same people that were complaining about the AF ab speed bonus fly nothing but Dramiels. So now we have the "please-dont-nerf-the-dramiel-orill-cut-my-vains!" campaign. About the price, if CCP decides to boost eny item making it the FOTM everyone will want it so sellers will try to get more ISK from selling it. Its not the-item-is-so-good-because-its-expensive. Its the item is expensive because everybody wants it. Why do we need complicated solution to solve the one ship problem that causes the imbalance when the solution is so obvious. You necroing son of a ****. Of all the threads to mumble* Originally by: CCP Shadow snip Castration successful. Shadow.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.05.24 16:25:00 - [95] Nerfing should affect a vast part of features that in the recent years rose up to overpowered levels and are now the "MUST DO". They break the sandbox freedom concept and introduce EvE to WoW mono-rail mentality (even more than it already has been that is). Dramiels are but another of the errors to fix. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Lorieen AQ Militis Seprentia	Posted - 2010.05.24 18:01:00 - [96] One thing to think about when it comes to that ships is like someone else had mentioned.... how does it compare with other pirate frigates? I have always enjoyed diverisity in ships from different races but you can tell when a ship is a little too good when you mostly see them over other ships in its same class. Some times not only is it the pilots that don't want a certain ship nerfed but if it is a pirate ship, it can also be the people that happen to control the part of low or 0.0 sec where the ships are farmed at. I dont know if that is the case but no one wants their cash cow killed.
DanMck Amarr Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.05.24 18:40:00 - [97] Originally by: Zahira Wrath When they wanted to nerf the Myrm, the forums were alight with people complaining about CCP killing off diversity. When they wanted to nerf the NOS Domi, the forums were alight with people complaining about CCP killing off solo pvp. When they wanted to nerf the nanoship, the forums were alight with people complaining about CCP killing off speed. When they wanted to nerf the Flacon, the forums were alight with people complaining about CCP killing off BECAUSE OF FALCON. And now: When they wanted to nerf the Dramiel, the forums are now alight with people complaining about CCP killing off Fun. Look, the Dramiel is overpowered and will get nerfed. When a ship gets used more often then others, all others, its because its overpowered; and that means its gonna get nerfed. You can yell about how its carbearish, or nerfing fun, or killing diversity, or reuining eve, or whatever but that's how things work. Get over yourself. agreed - stop nerfing stuff and go buy a dramiel.
Guillame Herschel Gallente NME1	Posted - 2010.05.24 19:32:00 - [98] Originally by: Rashmika Clavain Unfortunately having a ship that surpasses all else does lead to a Rock -> Rock -> Rock situation as people start to fly only... that Rock Bull. 4 pages of kill mails, only one Dramiel in the bunch. Relatively few people fly the Dramiel, and it does not make them invulnerable. -- Nah, that's just my Asperger's kickin' in.
Goshien Aiel Gallente The Black Rabbits Academy The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2010.05.24 20:05:00 - [99] Theirs a number of reasons the dramiel works as well as it does, but it isn't unkillable. I won't say it's hands down the best, but it's up there. Quote: Anyone claiming that they have been killed by a dramiel that was out of scram, neut, web range was killed by the dram pilot by him/her either overheating his scram or having a faction one fitted (you can disengage if he/she cant scram you out of 24km, you'll know this becaue you cant scram himVery Happy). Blankent statements do not apply to combat in eve. -----------------------------------
Ulwithy Arillious	Posted - 2010.05.24 22:56:00 - [100] If Sir Robin played EVE, he would fly a Dramiel. When danger reared its ugly head / He bravely turned his tail and fled. It's a reasonably powerful frigate with the ability to disengage from most situations. The only argument I have against it is that nothing can match it for speed. If you want move diversity in EVE, just slow it down a little.

Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2010.05.25 00:24:00 - [101] Fast? Check (the fastest even). Can operate within scram range? Check (go go dual-prop). Tough? Check (for a frig, hello MSE). High damage? Check (guns AND drones, can break 200dps pretty easily). Selectable damage? Check. Capless weapons? Check. Drone bay? Check. Utility slot for neut? Check. Adequate grid/cpu/slots for all of the above? Check. So it controls the engagement, has an excellent dps/ehp balance, capless, selectable damage with incredible tracking, a decent sized drone bay and can fit a neut just to top it all off? Completely balanced. It's perfect. There is a reason is doesn't get more kills: people run as soon as it appears on scan unless they can trap it. There is a reason they die: they have traps laid specifically for them. No ship can be reasonably expected to survive that. There is a reason some people lose them like idiots: some people are idiots. If I had every frigate in the game and had to choose ONLY one to keep, it would be a Dramiel without any hesitation. Anyone who knows anything about frigate pvp would say the same. The Daredevil and the Jaguar are fine, fine ships but the Dram is still a superior choice for all the reasons outlined above. End of story. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate'
Eternum Praetorian Method In Khaos	Posted - 2010.05.25 00:58:00 - [102] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 25/05/2010 00:58:29 I find it sad that we have dumber ** to whine about then we did a year ago. Nano's, ECM, Carrier Cargo Bay Size . . . at least those things were relevant to the over all game play. Lately people have been **ing about star graphics and a frigate nerfs. When I am in Empire, Dramiels can't kill me because they lack DPS. * In Low Sec, I simply can't get them to shoot at me even if they are in a big gang because gate guns nuke them. * In 0.0, Bubbles and blobs are the issue, I don't care about a frigate . . . I care about the coming gank squad that will soon follow being tackled [even better warp bubbles and hot drops] I'll just come out and say it, Dramiels are kind of a stupid ship to be flying anyway. You can't do much in them except grief the stupid and the unprepared, and you can do that in something that is either cheaper or bigger. On top of all that, you are in a FRIGATE hull that is disproportionally expensive compared to anything else you could be flying. Ultimately Dramiels will get nerfed do to 1.) Overuse and 2.) Lack of creativity on the part of YOU the player. Overuse of a ship type or a mechanic is the only reason why CCP will nerf something, so whether your pro-nerf or anti-nerf, it doesn't matter . . . it will get nerfed so long as people like you keep flying them so often.
Olleybear I R' Carebear	Posted - 2010.05.25 01:27:00 - [103] Are people really saying nerf the Dramiel!?!?!? Umm, its a Frigate... I've flown them and fought against them. They are fun ships to fly and fight against. Faction frigs add a bit of variety to the rock/paper/scissors fight. You have to think, yes think, about what to do when fighting against a faction frig of any kind. So nerf? Blah. The Dramiel has a few weaknesses you can exploit if you use your head. Dont believe me? Go buy one, fit it, fly it like its an unkillable win button, and when you lose it you have just figured out a weakness. <<< Just because your pet likes you, that does not mean you are a good person. >>>
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2010.05.25 01:41:00 - [104] Originally by: Olleybear The Dramiel has a few weaknesses you can exploit if you use your head. Dont believe me? In comparison to other frigates? No I don't believe you (I fly a LOT of frigates and can, and have, flown every single one). Name those weaknesses, go on. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate'
Olleybear I R' Carebear	Posted - 2010.05.25 02:03:00 - [105] Originally by: Stuart Price Name those weaknesses, go on. I'm not going to do *all* the work for you. But here are 3 ships that can fight off a Dramiel: Daredevil - Firetail - Jaguar Like I said before, if the Dramiel is a Win Button, go buy one and fly it like its unkillable. A 75 to 100mil isk loss should teach a person its weaknesses rather quickly. <<< Just because your pet likes you, that does not mean you are a good person. >>>
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2010.05.25 02:30:00 - [106] Edited by: Stuart Price on 25/05/2010 02:33:18 Originally by: Olleybear Originally by: Stuart Price Name those weaknesses, go on. I'm not going to do *all* the work for you. But here are 3 ships that can fight off a Dramiel: Daredevil - Firetail - Jaguar Like I said before, if the Dramiel is a Win Button, go buy one and fly it like its unkillable. A 75 to 100mil isk loss should teach a person its weaknesses rather quickly. Daredevil I give you, it kills Drams. BUT is itself easier to catch and kill than a Dram and has more weaknesses of its own. The other two lose unless they go AB, scram, web, MSE for the mids (or at least can't stop the Dram from simply flying away). Which means no MWD. Which means they have a major disadvantage against lots of other ships. The Dramiel, with one fitting, has no weaknesses as obvious or exploitable as those of the ships you named. It needs SPECIFIC fittings from SPECIFIC ships to defeat, or a buddy in a Rapier. None of the supposed Dram-killer fits exploit a weakness, they overcome one or more of its strengths and have to sacrifice effectiveness in other areas to do so. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate'
Olleybear I R' Carebear	Posted - 2010.05.25 03:24:00 - [107] Originally by: Stuart Price Daredevil I give you, it kills Drams. BUT is itself easier to catch and kill than a Dram and has more weaknesses of its own. Its all Rock/Paper/Scissors. Just one scenario: Dramiel vs Jaguar ( assuming equal skilled pilots ) The Dramiel is no Assault Frig. Jaguar will eat a Dramiel up close with autos. Thats a win for the Jaguar. Far away, a Dramiel cant do enough DPS wihout drones to kill a Jaguar. So you kill the drones. Stalemate. Again, Rock/Paper/Scissors. This fit to counter that fit, so you make up yet another fit to counter the second fit.... its endless. I know, I have fought off a Dramiel in a Firetail and Jaguar. I've stalemated a Dramiel in both those ships. I've even popped a Dramiel in a cyclone of all things. 1 v 1 - A Dramiel is counterable, just like any ship. <<< Just because your pet likes you, that does not mean you are a good person. >>>
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2010.05.25 04:00:00 - [108] Originally by: Olleybear Dramiel vs Jaguar ( assuming equal skilled pilots ) The Dramiel is no Assault Frig. Jaguar will eat a Dramiel up close with autos. Thats a win for the Jaguar. Far away, a Dramiel cant do enough DPS wihout drones to kill a Jaguar. So you kill the drones. Stalemate. The Jag needs ab, web, scram to dictate rage against a Dram. It needs the MSE to be tough enough. The Dram still has more dps AND drones AND has better tracking so it's still a close fight. That same Jag is then slow enough to be lolkilled by most things with MWD and weapons that can hit out past web/scram range (harpies, most cruisers, a smegging CROW) whereas the Dramiel can just evade the larger targets if it wants and simply kill or evade the frigs because it's dual propped. The Jag, in order to kill a Dram, has sacrificed speed and never even had drones to begin with. The Dram retains all its strengths and still has a half decent chance of winning. If the Jag doesn't fit ALL THREE of AB, scram and web, the Dram controls range and can also therefore disengage at will. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate'
Olleybear I R' Carebear	Posted - 2010.05.25 04:22:00 - [109] Edited by: Olleybear on 25/05/2010 04:22:49 Originally by: Stuart Price ...Dramiel can just evade the larger targets if it wants and simply kill or evade the frigs because it's dual propped... ...The Jag, in order to kill a Dram, has sacrificed speed and never even had drones to begin with. The Dram retains all its strengths and still has a half decent chance of winning... Jaguar can just evade larger targets by having the pilot use his brain, ie; dont bite off more than you can chew. Dual prop is using a mid-slot that could have been used for tanking/weapon disruption/something else... We are just going to go back and forth. We are never going to agree because we both think the other is wrong. Hehe. Maybe we are both right. *Edited 1 sentence for clarity. <<< Just because your pet likes you, that does not mean you are a good person. >>>


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