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Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2010.03.25 11:39:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 25/03/2010 11:41:12
I have been around for the ecm nerf, the nano/speed nerf, the introduction of scripts and the nerf of many many ships. Some of these nerfs were beneficial and balancing while others just eliminated some of the fun from eve.
People were very unhappy with the fact that they couldn't kill certain players who could fly faster than them. Result? A reduction in speed across the board on alot of ships. I hated fighting those interceptors that could pull 13km/s, but you know what I miss them being around. I didn't bother me that they could tackle me and there was nothing I could do about it, that was my fault for being caught unawares and not having support with me, afterall an interceptor cannot kill a BS alone (99% of the time:P). It was also great fun to nano fit many of the ships in eve, i also miss seeing certain BS flying at ridiculous speeds.
So what happened? We got a speed nerf and the introduction of the scram turning off mwd. Now I also understand that CCP nerfed speed for server performance issues, but they also nerfed fun. Speed is fun. We need to be able to move faster in eve in the smaller ships, across the board. The dramiel is not the problem that people think it is, people fly it because it is fun and fast, whilst giving you a chance to survive against bc's and other frigates. Cruisers should be able to mince the thing if the pilot has any sense about him/herself. The problem is that the other frigs are not as fun to fly, they need to be faster or have compensating attributes. The cruor for example is an excellent counter to a dramiel, but vulnerable in a gang situation if it is called primary.
Anyone claiming that they have been killed by a dramiel that was out of scram, neut, web range was killed by the dram pilot either overheating his scram or having a faction one fitted (you can disengage if he/she cant scram you out of 24km, you'll know this becaue you cant scram him ). The problem here would be overheating and faction scrams that increase range, or gang links...
The dramiel does not need a nerf, T2 frigates need a boost. Pirate Faction ships IMO, due to rareness and associated costs should be superior in every class, except maybe T3.
We need unique ships in eve that surpass in every class, for the sake of fun, aspiration and to sink our isk into. Who wants to play rock, rock, rock? I'd much rather play rock, paper, scissors. Everyone in eve wants the ship they have either skilled for or they love aesthetically to be the ship. The people complaining about the dramiel may indeed have been pro falcon before that nerf, or anti eos prenerf. The dramiel is not a solowtfpwnmobile, it's a frigate. Grab a bellicose/thorax/moa/omen and pop the f*****s don't cry to the forums for a nerf. You know what I do when I see a ship I know I can't handle, I gtfo of there, this could be the skill you are missing.
 Originally by: Lance Fighter
This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route.
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.25 13:30:00 -
[2]
Unfortunately having a ship that surpasses all else does lead to a Rock -> Rock -> Rock situation as people start to fly only... that Rock 
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xXSolarisXx
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Posted - 2010.03.25 13:44:00 -
[3]
Edited by: xXSolarisXx on 25/03/2010 13:45:32
nerfing Dramiel = another step to nurfing fun in eve!
P.S
tranais 14 mil in jita dramiel 70mil
now what u think the taranis(or any other inty)should be equal to the dramiel?
P.S 2
i dont really mind if all the inty pilots start flying dramiels(if the can afford it) can be a lot of fun in 1vs1 fights
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Victor Fenris
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Posted - 2010.03.25 13:53:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Victor Fenris on 25/03/2010 13:53:11
Well they nerfed the Machariel too! Having the 8th high slot and i cannot fit a weapon in it seems useless on a BS worth 1 bil! It's gathering dust in my hangar... I fly my Maelstrom instead. Less fun in eve... 
Victor Fenris, your friendly neighborhood trader.
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Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.03.25 13:59:00 -
[5]
Originally by: xXSolarisXx
P.S
tranais 14 mil in jita dramiel 70mil
now what u think the taranis(or any other inty)should be equal to the dramiel?
You obviously don't have the first clue about how the market works.
The Taranis is so cheap now because demand is so low and people are trying to sell them. Demand is so low because every man and his dog is flying the Dramiel because it's been boosted to hell to be a solo frigate pwn mobile in recent patches.
The only reason the Dramiel has spiked in price so much is the exact opposite to the Taranis, demand is high so sellers are pushing up the prices to cut a higher margin.
Please get a clue before you post.
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
Dante Seth
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Posted - 2010.03.25 14:27:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Celeste Coeval
Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 25/03/2010 11:41:12
I have been around for the ecm nerf, the nano/speed nerf, the introduction of scripts and the nerf of many many ships. Some of these nerfs were beneficial and balancing while others just eliminated some of the fun from eve.
People were very unhappy with the fact that they couldn't kill certain players who could fly faster than them. Result? A reduction in speed across the board on alot of ships. I hated fighting those interceptors that could pull 13km/s, but you know what I miss them being around. I didn't bother me that they could tackle me and there was nothing I could do about it, that was my fault for being caught unawares and not having support with me, afterall an interceptor cannot kill a BS alone (99% of the time:P). It was also great fun to nano fit many of the ships in eve, i also miss seeing certain BS flying at ridiculous speeds.
So what happened? We got a speed nerf and the introduction of the scram turning off mwd. Now I also understand that CCP nerfed speed for server performance issues, but they also nerfed fun. Speed is fun. We need to be able to move faster in eve in the smaller ships, across the board. The dramiel is not the problem that people think it is, people fly it because it is fun and fast, whilst giving you a chance to survive against bc's and other frigates. Cruisers should be able to mince the thing if the pilot has any sense about him/herself. The problem is that the other frigs are not as fun to fly, they need to be faster or have compensating attributes. The cruor for example is an excellent counter to a dramiel, but vulnerable in a gang situation if it is called primary.
Anyone claiming that they have been killed by a dramiel that was out of scram, neut, web range was killed by the dram pilot either overheating his scram or having a faction one fitted (you can disengage if he/she cant scram you out of 24km, you'll know this becaue you cant scram him). The problem here would be overheating and faction scrams that increase range, or gang links...
The dramiel does not need a nerf, T2 frigates need a boost. Pirate Faction ships IMO, due to rareness and associated costs should be superior in every class, except maybe T3.
We need unique ships in eve that surpass in every class, for the sake of fun, aspiration and to sink our isk into. Who wants to play rock, rock, rock? I'd much rather play rock, paper, scissors. Everyone in eve wants the ship they have either skilled for or they love aesthetically to be the ship. The people complaining about the dramiel may indeed have been pro falcon before that nerf, or anti eos prenerf. The dramiel is not a solowtfpwnmobile, it's a frigate. Grab a bellicose/thorax/moa/omen and pop the f*****s don't cry to the forums for a nerf. You know what I do when I see a ship I know I can't handle, I gtfo of there, this could be the skill you are missing.
HERP DERPA DERP
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Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2010.03.25 14:50:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: xXSolarisXx
P.S
tranais 14 mil in jita dramiel 70mil
now what u think the taranis(or any other inty)should be equal to the dramiel?
You obviously don't have the first clue about how the market works.
The Taranis is so cheap now because demand is so low and people are trying to sell them. Demand is so low because every man and his dog is flying the Dramiel because it's been boosted to hell to be a solo frigate pwn mobile in recent patches.
The only reason the Dramiel has spiked in price so much is the exact opposite to the Taranis, demand is high so sellers are pushing up the prices to cut a higher margin.
Please get a clue before you post.
Couldn't agree more, we need the interceptors unnerfing with regards to speed.
Originally by: Lance Fighter
This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route. |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2010.03.25 14:54:00 -
[8]
*POSTED IN ANOTHER DRAM THREAD POSTING HERE FOR MORE FEEDBACK*
give intys a bonus to overheating boost percentage.
overheated mwd to 10km/s for a burst or two, BAM overheated 15km scrambler = one tackled dram.
intys should be fastest in game even if not all the time, make them better at catching stuff (like their piont range bonus does atm).
thats the solution, the dram is perfectly good at what it does by similar margins the other angel ships are. Maybe the 3 drones are slightly overkill, but not major.
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Lexx Khadar
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2010.03.25 15:14:00 -
[9]
All i got from this thread was a new meme.
Because of dramiel?
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.03.25 15:19:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 25/03/2010 15:21:46
Assuming a situation where you have the money and skills to fly any frigate:
Justify flying anything but a Dramiel.
Really, try it.
That's why it needs a nerf. Also:
Quote:
Unfortunately having a ship that surpasses all else does lead to a Rock -> Rock -> Rock situation as people start to fly only... that Rock Wink
Basically this. When one of X needs either more of X or overwhelming force to beat, something is wrong.
Pre nerfs:
Main nanoship counter: more nanoships
Main ECM counter: more ECM, or a custom fitted sniper battleship.
_________________________________
Originally by: Dodgy Past
Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
The Littlest Hobos
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.03.25 15:28:00 -
[11]
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 25/03/2010 15:28:45
Solution (if really needed):
Return webbers to previous -90% velocity or allow incremented base 70% progressing upwards depending on level of inty/recon etc trained. Oh look all sorted including the perma-****ed Huginn kthxbyebye.
Not that the Dramiel really needs a fix but whatever 
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.03.25 15:30:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 25/03/2010 15:32:26
Speed nerf made this game a lot better overall. Yes it was fun flying around in 5-10km/sec HACs and Recons, the problem was the only real counter for it was to do exactly the same.
Now Dramiels... powerful inty killer due to the combination of speed, dual-prop, low signature, DPS and tracking/falloff bonus - but most faction frigs are good at killing inties, you can tell that just by looking at the bonuses.
If they upped the sig a bit (say from 32m to 40m - still less than some Assault Frigs) it'd make them a lot easier to deal with. Beyond that I'm not sure - these are faction frigs after all. Daredevil with a faction web would probably rip it to pieces.
- Malyutka (The Virus) - |
Zahira Wrath
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Posted - 2010.03.25 15:38:00 -
[13]
When they wanted to nerf the Myrm, the forums were alight with people complaining about CCP killing off diversity.
When they wanted to nerf the NOS Domi, the forums were alight with people complaining about CCP killing off solo pvp.
When they wanted to nerf the nanoship, the forums were alight with people complaining about CCP killing off speed.
When they wanted to nerf the Flacon, the forums were alight with people complaining about CCP killing off BECAUSE OF FALCON.
And now:
When they wanted to nerf the Dramiel, the forums are now alight with people complaining about CCP killing off Fun.
Look, the Dramiel is overpowered and will get nerfed. When a ship gets used more often then others, all others, its because its overpowered; and that means its gonna get nerfed.
You can yell about how its carbearish, or nerfing fun, or killing diversity, or reuining eve, or whatever but that's how things work.
Get over yourself.
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Caelum Dominus
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2010.03.25 15:39:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 25/03/2010 15:44:04
Hi.
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Wacktopia
Dark Side Of The Womb
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Posted - 2010.03.25 15:51:00 -
[15]
Meh, I killed a Dram in a Mega. Heavy unstable 25km neut... scram... warriors... dead.
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Laetha
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.03.25 16:10:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus
Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 25/03/2010 15:44:04
Hi.
Nice edit. DHB's old setup (if you still have doubts):
Nano Mach
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yourdoingitwrong
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Posted - 2010.03.25 16:23:00 -
[17]
Dram wont be nerfed its here to stay time to HTFU
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.25 16:31:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Wacktopia
Meh, I killed a Dram in a Mega. Heavy unstable 25km neut... scram... warriors... dead.
Carriers have been solo'd by t1 cruisers (well it happened once at least). That doesnt mean that t1 cruisers beat carriers one on one, it just means there are some really stupid players around. Same is true here.
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Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2010.03.25 16:59:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Zahira Wrath
When they wanted to nerf the Myrm, the forums were alight with people complaining about CCP killing off diversity.
When they wanted to nerf the NOS Domi, the forums were alight with people complaining about CCP killing off solo pvp.
When they wanted to nerf the nanoship, the forums were alight with people complaining about CCP killing off speed.
When they wanted to nerf the Flacon, the forums were alight with people complaining about CCP killing off BECAUSE OF FALCON.
And now:
When they wanted to nerf the Dramiel, the forums are now alight with people complaining about CCP killing off Fun.
Look, the Dramiel is overpowered and will get nerfed. When a ship gets used more often then others, all others, its because its overpowered; and that means its gonna get nerfed.
You can yell about how its carbearish, or nerfing fun, or killing diversity, or reuining eve, or whatever but that's how things work.
Get over yourself.
I don't recall once saying it was ruining eve. I do recall saying that T2 frigs needed a boost with regards to speed.
Originally by: Lance Fighter
This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.03.25 17:06:00 -
[20]
100% behind the OP. I do not believe in CCP's balancing philosophy of "drastic removal" (aka, the nerf bat) as this diminishes the sandbox environment as well as the 'damnit, I am going to figure out how to kill that really good ship + skilled pilot' experience.
Sometimes, as the OP points out, it is best to run from a fight if a pilot is *that* interested in keeping their ship intact.
In many cases there are existing fittings and techniques to counter specialized faction ships -- even with tech 1 hulls. And if the faction ships get popped with greater frequency, then their pilots may not fly them as much or only in particular situations.
Catering to a particular class of players who whine hard and often about a ship that they think is overpowered is absurd and counter to an aspect of EVE that makes the game unique and highly engaging.
[Disclaimer: I have never flown a Dramiel, nor do I intend to fly one in the near-future. But I have been burned on another toon with CCP's nerf of the Myrmidon / Eos drone bandwidth and some of their other misguided attempts at game balancing.]
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Selina Moel
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Posted - 2010.03.25 18:10:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Zahira Wrath
When they wanted to nerf the Myrm, the forums were alight with people complaining about CCP killing off diversity.
When they wanted to nerf the NOS Domi, the forums were alight with people complaining about CCP killing off solo pvp.
When they wanted to nerf the nanoship, the forums were alight with people complaining about CCP killing off speed.
When they wanted to nerf the Flacon, the forums were alight with people complaining about CCP killing off BECAUSE OF FALCON.
And now:
When they wanted to nerf the Dramiel, the forums are now alight with people complaining about CCP killing off Fun.
Look, the Dramiel is overpowered and will get nerfed. When a ship gets used more often then others, all others, its because its overpowered; and that means its gonna get nerfed.
You can yell about how its carbearish, or nerfing fun, or killing diversity, or reuining eve, or whatever but that's how things work.
Get over yourself.
could not have said it better myself
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.25 18:17:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: xXSolarisXx
P.S
tranais 14 mil in jita dramiel 70mil
now what u think the taranis(or any other inty)should be equal to the dramiel?
You obviously don't have the first clue about how the market works.
The Taranis is so cheap now because demand is so low and people are trying to sell them. Demand is so low because every man and his dog is flying the Dramiel because it's been boosted to hell to be a solo frigate pwn mobile in recent patches.
The only reason the Dramiel has spiked in price so much is the exact opposite to the Taranis, demand is high so sellers are pushing up the prices to cut a higher margin.
Please get a clue before you post.
Even at the hight of the ranis glory days the ship never cost that much.
Dramiel is fine, easily counterable.
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Zahira Wrath
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Posted - 2010.03.25 18:40:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Zahira Wrath on 25/03/2010 18:40:50
Originally by: baltec1
Even at the hight of the ranis glory days the ship never cost that much.
Dramiel is fine, easily counterable.
Apparently the easy counter for a Dramiel is, surprise, another Dramiel.
Just like how the best counter for nano ships was, surprise, more nanoships.
Just like how the best counter for falcons was, surprise, more falcons.
Just like how the best counter for the nos domi was, surprise, another nos domi.
(or the much better counter: "dont engage")
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.25 18:41:00 -
[24]
Oh FFS, not another thread from a pathetic Dramiel abuser who can't stand the thought of losing their "I win" button.
Let me make this very, very simple: the problem with the Dramiel is not that it can not be countered, the problem is that the Dramiel divides the frigate class into two categories: Dramiels, and those lesser ships that you only fly if you can't afford a Dramiel.
Pre-Dramiel-boost: lots of good frigates, each with their advantages and disadvantages. The "best" frigate depends entirely on the individual player's preferences, and there is plenty of diversity in those opinions.
Post-Dramiel-boost: the Dramiel is the clear winner. There is NO diversity left. If you have the skills and ISK to fly a Dramiel, you fly a Dramiel because the Dramiel is the best ship in every possible frigate role, and by a huge margin.
-----------
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.25 18:45:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Zahira Wrath
Apparently the easy counter for a Dramiel is, surprise, another Dramiel.
Just like how the best counter for nano ships was, surprise, more nanoships.
Just like how the best counter for falcons was, surprise, more falcons.
Just like how the best counter for the nos domi was, surprise, another nos domi.
(or the much better counter: "dont engage")
So I would take it that you would be shocked to learn I saw one off in an iteron V then?
It got away just as it hit structure which is a damn shame, guess I do need to train those navigation skills on my little alt. Next time though, it wont be as lucky.
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000Hunter000
Gallente
Industrial Exploits
Massive Intergalactic Love Klub
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Posted - 2010.03.25 19:13:00 -
[26]
Whaa whaa whaa!!! Nerf that, boost that...
________________________________________________
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Krennel Darius
Caldari
Nova Security Systems
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Posted - 2010.03.25 19:21:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Celeste Coeval
Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 25/03/2010 11:41:12
I have been around for the ecm nerf, the nano/speed nerf, the introduction of scripts and the nerf of many many ships. Some of these nerfs were beneficial and balancing while others just eliminated some of the fun from eve.
People were very unhappy with the fact that they couldn't kill certain players who could fly faster than them. Result? A reduction in speed across the board on alot of ships. I hated fighting those interceptors that could pull 13km/s, but you know what I miss them being around. I didn't bother me that they could tackle me and there was nothing I could do about it, that was my fault for being caught unawares and not having support with me, afterall an interceptor cannot kill a BS alone (99% of the time:P). It was also great fun to nano fit many of the ships in eve, i also miss seeing certain BS flying at ridiculous speeds.
So what happened? We got a speed nerf and the introduction of the scram turning off mwd. Now I also understand that CCP nerfed speed for server performance issues, but they also nerfed fun. Speed is fun. We need to be able to move faster in eve in the smaller ships, across the board. The dramiel is not the problem that people think it is, people fly it because it is fun and fast, whilst giving you a chance to survive against bc's and other frigates. Cruisers should be able to mince the thing if the pilot has any sense about him/herself. The problem is that the other frigs are not as fun to fly, they need to be faster or have compensating attributes. The cruor for example is an excellent counter to a dramiel, but vulnerable in a gang situation if it is called primary.
Anyone claiming that they have been killed by a dramiel that was out of scram, neut, web range was killed by the dram pilot either overheating his scram or having a faction one fitted (you can disengage if he/she cant scram you out of 24km, you'll know this becaue you cant scram him). The problem here would be overheating and faction scrams that increase range, or gang links...
The dramiel does not need a nerf, T2 frigates need a boost. Pirate Faction ships IMO, due to rareness and associated costs should be superior in every class, except maybe T3.
We need unique ships in eve that surpass in every class, for the sake of fun, aspiration and to sink our isk into. Who wants to play rock, rock, rock? I'd much rather play rock, paper, scissors. Everyone in eve wants the ship they have either skilled for or they love aesthetically to be the ship. The people complaining about the dramiel may indeed have been pro falcon before that nerf, or anti eos prenerf. The dramiel is not a solowtfpwnmobile, it's a frigate. Grab a bellicose/thorax/moa/omen and pop the f*****s don't cry to the forums for a nerf. You know what I do when I see a ship I know I can't handle, I gtfo of there, this could be the skill you are missing.
You sir, are a genius. Also, you are my new favorite person. Keep it up.
_________________________________________________
If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris |
Kate Machine
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Posted - 2010.03.25 19:31:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: xXSolarisXx
P.S
tranais 14 mil in jita dramiel 70mil
now what u think the taranis(or any other inty)should be equal to the dramiel?
You obviously don't have the first clue about how the market works.
The Taranis is so cheap now because demand is so low and people are trying to sell them. Demand is so low because every man and his dog is flying the Dramiel because it's been boosted to hell to be a solo frigate pwn mobile in recent patches.
The only reason the Dramiel has spiked in price so much is the exact opposite to the Taranis, demand is high so sellers are pushing up the prices to cut a higher margin.
Please get a clue before you post.
what a bunch of shyt. 
ranis always was a bit more expensive then other intys, but still was a cheap toy, so stfu, dumbass.
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Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2010.03.25 19:48:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Oh FFS, not another thread from a pathetic Dramiel abuser who can't stand the thought of losing their "I win" button.
Let me make this very, very simple: the problem with the Dramiel is not that it can not be countered, the problem is that the Dramiel divides the frigate class into two categories: Dramiels, and those lesser ships that you only fly if you can't afford a Dramiel.
Pre-Dramiel-boost: lots of good frigates, each with their advantages and disadvantages. The "best" frigate depends entirely on the individual player's preferences, and there is plenty of diversity in those opinions.
Post-Dramiel-boost: the Dramiel is the clear winner. There is NO diversity left. If you have the skills and ISK to fly a Dramiel, you fly a Dramiel because the Dramiel is the best ship in every possible frigate role, and by a huge margin.
I haven't flown a dramiel for 4 years
Originally by: Lance Fighter
This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route. |
Rabid Clone
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Posted - 2010.03.25 19:53:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Rabid Clone on 25/03/2010 19:55:30
Originally by: Zahira Wrath
Edited by: Zahira Wrath on 25/03/2010 18:40:50
Originally by: baltec1
Even at the hight of the ranis glory days the ship never cost that much.
Dramiel is fine, easily counterable.
Apparently the easy counter for a Dramiel is, surprise, another Dramiel.
Just like how the best counter for nano ships was, surprise, more nanoships.
Just like how the best counter for falcons was, surprise, more falcons.
Just like how the best counter for the nos domi was, surprise, another nos domi.
(or the much better counter: "dont engage")
1) EAS
2) E-War / Neuts
3) ECCM / FoF
4) Missile / Projectile / Kill Drones / E-War
Resume: U R FАG
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chrisss0r
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Posted - 2010.03.25 19:56:00 -
[31]
Speed in itself isn't fun. You weren't having fun because you thought "wow 11 km/s this is so much fun hihihi"
you were having fun because realtive speeds were ****ed up and you could **** on large gangs heads without any consequences
"haha, morons, there is nothing they can do" might be fun but it's not balanced.
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Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2010.03.25 20:00:00 -
[32]
Originally by: chrisss0r
Speed in itself isn't fun. You weren't having fun because you thought "wow 11 km/s this is so much fun hihihi"
you were having fun because realtive speeds were ****ed up and you could **** on large gangs heads without any consequences
"haha, morons, there is nothing they can do" might be fun but it's not balanced.
I cannot fly an interceptor, I do not fly dramiels. The highest speed I have ever flown is about 3 km/s. I killed plenty of interceptors pre nerf and we know plenty of folks I play with that have killed dramiels, they especially value their dramiel kills because of the isk cost to the victim, it is satisfying to kill a dramiel.
Originally by: Lance Fighter
This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route. |
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.03.25 20:04:00 -
[33]
My jag has never had any problems killing drams as long as they come into scram and web range. Neut him dry and that dual prop means nothing. Now getting a competant dram pilot to engage is another matter alltogether. 
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Get off the forums and go kill someone!
CCP Shadow's Troll List. |
Ranger 1
Amarr
Dynaverse Corporation
Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.03.25 20:05:00 -
[34]
Quote:
Post-Dramiel-boost: the Dramiel is the clear winner. There is NO diversity left. If you have the skills and ISK to fly a Dramiel, you fly a Dramiel because the Dramiel is the best ship in every possible frigate role, and by a huge margin.
Respectfully, no.
One thing to consider, you should really only be comparing the Dramiel to the other 3 pirate faction frigates as that whole group is designed to be superior to all other frigates... including interceptors and assault frigates. This is intended.
Now if you want to complain that the Dramiel is vastly superior to the other 3 pirate faction frigates, thats fine... although don't be suprised if not everyone agrees with you on that score.
Second thing to consider, your statement that there is no need to fly any other frigate in the game is completely without merit. There are any number of reasons to fly other frigate class vessels. If you don't understand why I say that, you need to try to experience more of the game.
And finally the third thing to consider, Dramiels are rather easy to kill. They are far less of a threat that nano Vaga's or Ishtars used to be, or ceptors for that matter, pre-nano nerf. Any ship that is set up to counter small, fast moving targets can easily one or two volley a Dramiel if at an appropriate range.
Would I want to take a Taranis up against a Dramiel? Probably not. The Dramiel is supposed to be superior to a Taranis by design.
Would I take a Munin up against multiple Dramiels? If they had a gang mate tackled and I could warp in at range I would gleefully instapop them.
I can see making a case for tweeking minor things to attain a better balance between the pirate faction frigate, but thats about it.
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If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Avernus
Gallente
Imperium Technologies
Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.03.25 20:09:00 -
[35]
Ranger in with a sensible post before me.
Plenty of ways to pop them, lots of fun to fly them. It's a winning ship.
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Kate Machine
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Posted - 2010.03.25 20:19:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote:
Post-Dramiel-boost: the Dramiel is the clear winner. There is NO diversity left. If you have the skills and ISK to fly a Dramiel, you fly a Dramiel because the Dramiel is the best ship in every possible frigate role, and by a huge margin.
Respectfully, no.
One thing to consider, you should really only be comparing the Dramiel to the other 3 pirate faction frigates as that whole group is designed to be superior to all other frigates... including interceptors and assault frigates. This is intended.
Now if you want to complain that the Dramiel is vastly superior to the other 3 pirate faction frigates, thats fine... although don't be suprised if not everyone agrees with you on that score.
Second thing to consider, your statement that there is no need to fly any other frigate in the game is completely without merit. There are any number of reasons to fly other frigate class vessels. If you don't understand why I say that, you need to try to experience more of the game.
And finally the third thing to consider, Dramiels are rather easy to kill. They are far less of a threat that nano Vaga's or Ishtars used to be, or ceptors for that matter, pre-nano nerf. Any ship that is set up to counter small, fast moving targets can easily one or two volley a Dramiel if at an appropriate range.
Would I want to take a Taranis up against a Dramiel? Probably not. The Dramiel is supposed to be superior to a Taranis by design.
Would I take a Munin up against multiple Dramiels? If they had a gang mate tackled and I could warp in at range I would gleefully instapop them.
I can see making a case for tweeking minor things to attain a better balance between the pirate faction frigate, but thats about it.
Yeah, that guy has some sensefull opinions, listen to him.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2010.03.25 20:44:00 -
[37]
Nerfing OP only becomes "nerfing fun" when you know it's OP and you have to resort to guilt tactics to try to save your overpowered toys. History always repeats itself around here...
edit: and just to remind you, there is still no divider between posts and sigs.
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Big McLarge'Huge
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Posted - 2010.03.25 20:44:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: xXSolarisXx
P.S
tranais 14 mil in jita dramiel 70mil
now what u think the taranis(or any other inty)should be equal to the dramiel?
You obviously don't have the first clue about how the market works.
The Taranis is so cheap now because demand is so low and people are trying to sell them. Demand is so low because every man and his dog is flying the Dramiel because it's been boosted to hell to be a solo frigate pwn mobile in recent patches.
The only reason the Dramiel has spiked in price so much is the exact opposite to the Taranis, demand is high so sellers are pushing up the prices to cut a higher margin.
Please get a clue before you post.
This nerd just got VEROWNED! amirite?
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.25 20:52:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Nerfing OP only becomes "nerfing fun" when you know it's OP and you have to resort to guilt tactics to try to save your overpowered toys. History always repeats itself around here...
My retribution melts them.
My sentinel sucks em dry then kills them.
My hauler peppers them to death while laughing at it flails around unable to break the tank.
My caracal rips them a new arse
my vengence kills them oh so slowly.
They are good but not overpowered.
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Rabid Clone
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Posted - 2010.03.25 20:55:00 -
[40]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Nerfing OP only becomes "nerfing fun" when you know it's OP and you have to resort to guilt tactics to try to save your overpowered toys. History always repeats itself around here...
My retribution melts them.
My sentinel sucks em dry then kills them.
My hauler peppers them to death while laughing at it flails around unable to break the tank.
My caracal rips them a new arse
my vengence kills them oh so slowly.
They are good but not overpowered.
Just a little more detailed about fit of that vengeance, pls :D
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.25 20:57:00 -
[41]
Edited by: baltec1 on 25/03/2010 21:03:59
Originally by: Rabid Clone
Just a little more detailed about fit of that vengeance, pls :D
duel rep tank is cool but the lol rockets take forever to kill anything
Speaking of which I might hijack this thread and make it a "boost my rockets already" thread.
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small chimp
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Posted - 2010.03.25 21:23:00 -
[42]
yes i am so angyr because dramiel is better than taranis
vigilant shuold be nerdfed beecause its better than thorax?
yes but vigil is much more expensive than thorax so it should be better?
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Epicbeardman
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Posted - 2010.03.25 22:43:00 -
[43]
Quote:
Some of these nerfs were beneficial and balancing while others just eliminated some of the fun from eve.
People were very unhappy with the fact that they couldn't kill certain players who could fly faster than them.
Way to smear your entire argument with stupidity and ignorance.
I take solace in the fact that CCP is going to ignore you like they do anyone else that has no idea what he's talking about.
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Amberlamps
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Posted - 2010.03.26 00:53:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Epicbeardman
Hello Amberlamps, Do you happen to know where my bag has gone?
I believe it was stolen by a young obese female with a dark personality!
Nerf Dram, k thx.
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Midori Tsu
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Posted - 2010.03.26 02:13:00 -
[45]
lowering the pg would be enough of a nerf for me
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yourdoingitwrong
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Posted - 2010.03.26 02:18:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Respectfully, no.
One thing to consider, you should really only be comparing the Dramiel to the other 3 pirate faction frigates as that whole group is designed to be superior to all other frigates... including interceptors and assault frigates. This is intended.
Now if you want to complain that the Dramiel is vastly superior to the other 3 pirate faction frigates, thats fine... although don't be suprised if not everyone agrees with you on that score.
Second thing to consider, your statement that there is no need to fly any other frigate in the game is completely without merit. There are any number of reasons to fly other frigate class vessels. If you don't understand why I say that, you need to try to experience more of the game.
And finally the third thing to consider, Dramiels are rather easy to kill. They are far less of a threat that nano Vaga's or Ishtars used to be, or ceptors for that matter, pre-nano nerf. Any ship that is set up to counter small, fast moving targets can easily one or two volley a Dramiel if at an appropriate range.
Would I want to take a Taranis up against a Dramiel? Probably not. The Dramiel is supposed to be superior to a Taranis by design.
Would I take a Munin up against multiple Dramiels? If they had a gang mate tackled and I could warp in at range I would gleefully instapop them.
I can see making a case for tweeking minor things to attain a better balance between the pirate faction frigate, but thats about it.
100000000X this^
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iudex
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Posted - 2010.03.26 07:09:00 -
[47]
Edited by: iudex on 26/03/2010 07:12:20
We all know, why people want to fly a Dramiel:
wannabe-dramiel
The price only went up, because there is a new season of Battlestar Galactica running on TV (in Germany every Wednesday for example) and people like to fly the sexy cylone fighter.
Nerfing it would be just wrong, after all it costs more to lose one than a fully t2 fitted and platinum insured battleship.
I'll try to get the prices down to 55-60mil next weeks, so that more people can afford one of those stylish frigs.
_____________________________________________________
My skills // Faction Standings: Serpentis +8.02 / Angel Cartel +9.24 / Gallente Federation -10.00 |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente
The Aduro Protocol
Talon Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.26 07:31:00 -
[48]
Okay really, for the Nth time, the Dramiel doesn't need a nerf.
The only people complaining about it are people who only want to play Eve to win and not play Eve to enjoy the game.
Who gives a rat's ass if the Dramiel can clean you up in a 1v1? CCP so many times has shown us that Eve is not a 1v1 game. When you offset two entire classes of ships because the Dramiel "is just that good" you have to consider that there are still going to be people that fly the other ships.
This is like saying "but that Lamborghini is SOOO much better than my Honda, it needs a nerf!" F off. People still buy Hondas, even though the Lamborghini is far superior in most ways.
Seriously, you guys need to get over yourselves.
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis
THE SPACE P0LICE
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Posted - 2010.03.26 09:46:00 -
[49]
Move a mid to low and/or reduce its speed.
Quote this if you think its a terrible idea because you happen to fly Dramiels  .
***
Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space
Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2
WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Acedias
Atropos Asylum
Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr
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Posted - 2010.03.26 11:57:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Acedias on 26/03/2010 12:03:30
So.. er.. you blokes complaining about the dramiel are all getting slaughtered by them?
Stop exploding you cowards.
The game does need diversity. Nerf the raven/navy raven/golem.
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Azran Zala
Fleet of the Damned
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Posted - 2010.03.26 12:12:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Azran Zala on 26/03/2010 12:14:58
I killed a dramiel with a duel web+scram nano'd characal and a cargohold of nanite repair paste. (granted i had to wait for him to come after me first)
Dunno what the big deal is.
Cynabal on the other hand.... I see everday in flocks, and cant seem to figure our how to kill them without blobbing them to death, and even then u still have to catch them.
Edit: actually got a cynabal killed with same said caracal, but I exploded as backup came in and finished the cynabal off.
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small chimp
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Posted - 2010.03.26 12:16:00 -
[52]
Why all these nerf dramiel threads suddenly? Its like angry mob looking for a culprit and a victim for their own failure?
Ok nerf falcon wines were justified but this...
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MSC Darklord
Minmatar
Shadow Company
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Posted - 2010.03.26 12:55:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Acedias
Stop exploding you cowards.
Ah, that episode was awesome, When Aliens Attack.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford
my bad.
Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
Said after a 60 second shut down notice that was then canceled. |
Kate Machine
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Posted - 2010.03.26 13:58:00 -
[54]
Originally by: baltec1
Edited by: baltec1 on 25/03/2010 21:03:59
Originally by: Rabid Clone
Just a little more detailed about fit of that vengeance, pls :D
duel rep tank is cool but the lol rockets take forever to kill anything
Speaking of which I might hijack this thread and make it a "boost my rockets already" thread.
Drami usually uses AB + MWD + Dis setup, so -> If we take a vengeance to counter it with it's 3 med slots -> AB + Scram + Web -> no cap to run dualrep... Or no propulsion -> Scram+Web+CB -> no chances to catch the guy
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Johnny Dexter
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Posted - 2010.03.26 14:04:00 -
[55]
If the only people who enjoy fights with Dramiels are the Dramiel pilots themselves then something is clearly not "working as intended". Don't be so selfish and start thinking what would be the best and most enjoyable for everyone, not just you.
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.26 14:09:00 -
[56]
Edited by: baltec1 on 26/03/2010 14:13:34
Originally by: Kate Machine
Originally by: baltec1
Edited by: baltec1 on 25/03/2010 21:03:59
Originally by: Rabid Clone
Just a little more detailed about fit of that vengeance, pls :D
duel rep tank is cool but the lol rockets take forever to kill anything
Speaking of which I might hijack this thread and make it a "boost my rockets already" thread.
Drami usually uses AB + MWD + Dis setup, so -> If we take a vengeance to counter it with it's 3 med slots -> AB + Scram + Web -> no cap to run dualrep... Or no propulsion -> Scram+Web+CB -> no chances to catch the guy
so the ranis should be nerfed for pulling the same trick then?
also I go scram-AB-CB.
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.03.26 16:35:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Artemis Rose
Move a mid to low and/or reduce its speed.
Quote this if you think its a terrible idea because you happen to fly Dramiels .
I think its a terrible idea and I don't fly drams I fly jags. The jag Is a vastly superiour ship to the dram with the same dps, moar usable tank and the ability to actualy survive tackling ships that would instamelt the dram. People just have this instant dislike for ships that can disengage is all. Though how a dram is considered op when it constantly has to run away and so contribute nothing to the fight beyond some emo rage at not killing it is beyond me.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Get off the forums and go kill someone!
CCP Shadow's Troll List. |
Kate Machine
|
Posted - 2010.03.26 16:46:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Kate Machine on 26/03/2010 16:48:35
Originally by: baltec1
Edited by: baltec1 on 26/03/2010 14:13:34
Originally by: Kate Machine
Originally by: baltec1
Edited by: baltec1 on 25/03/2010 21:03:59
Originally by: Rabid Clone
Just a little more detailed about fit of that vengeance, pls :D
duel rep tank is cool but the lol rockets take forever to kill anything
Speaking of which I might hijack this thread and make it a "boost my rockets already" thread.
Drami usually uses AB + MWD + Dis setup, so -> If we take a vengeance to counter it with it's 3 med slots -> AB + Scram + Web -> no cap to run dualrep... Or no propulsion -> Scram+Web+CB -> no chances to catch the guy
so the ranis should be nerfed for pulling the same trick then?
also I go scram-AB-CB.
Come on!
Taranis (3low-3med-4high-2rigs) goes ~ 4km/s, shoots 5km with blasters (180dps) / 13km with rails (for 85dps), has 2 drones, no web in dualprop... (overall dps ~ 211)
and
Dramiel (3low-4med-3high-3rigs) goes ~ 5.5km/s, shoots at 15km with autocanons (120), has 3 drones, dualprop + dis and web... (overall dps ~ 183)
so Dramiel has more range, more firepower, more speed, more ability to disengage (AB+Web)
And I am both hands for the Drami, actually, dunno, why have you thought otherwise? 
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Pharago
Gallente
Piratas Leprosos Guineanos
CorsarioS.
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Posted - 2010.03.26 16:56:00 -
[59]
Originally by: small chimp
Why all these nerf dramiel threads suddenly? Its like angry mob looking for a culprit and a victim for their own failure?
Ok nerf falcon wines were justified but this...
I don't want to seem presumptuous, but i can tell you that our corp has been on the dramiel pain train roaming at least for a week and voilß all these 'nerf dramiel' threads start to appear on the forums.
We are not so important, so i think im going a bit over my head, dunno what to make out of all of this, dramiel is good as it is, maybe give it a little more PW, or some shield EM resist, wut? we all want stuff from the devs, do we?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.26 17:18:00 -
[60]
Quote:
One thing to consider, you should really only be comparing the Dramiel to the other 3 pirate faction frigates as that whole group is designed to be superior to all other frigates... including interceptors and assault frigates. This is intended
Where did CCP write that? Linky?
Are them also designed to be superior to the empire faction frigs?
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Nicholas Barker
Black Nova Corp
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.26 17:35:00 -
[61]
Originally by: chrisss0r
"haha, morons, there is nothing they can do"
Haha, i miss those days so much.
------
0800-LAG-A-NODE
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.03.26 17:44:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
One thing to consider, you should really only be comparing the Dramiel to the other 3 pirate faction frigates as that whole group is designed to be superior to all other frigates... including interceptors and assault frigates. This is intended
Where did CCP write that? Linky?
Are them also designed to be superior to the empire faction frigs?
I'm far too lazy to dig up a link but I will confirm that the order of things for frigs accourding to ccp is t1<empire<t2<pirate. I think they forgot that the worm is a pirate frig though. 
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Get off the forums and go kill someone!
CCP Shadow's Troll List. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2010.03.26 17:51:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Where did CCP write that? Linky?
Are them also designed to be superior to the empire faction frigs?
Da Blog
Basically boils downs to:
T1 ≤ Navy ≤ T2 ≤ Pirate.
The FoTM jockeys who actually read the blog for some reason interpret "on par or slightly above" as "Overpowered by design" .. I blame their obviously sub-par English skills
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.26 18:05:00 -
[64]
Quote:
Da Blog Took a whopping 3s to find with Google, out lord and master (searched for "eve faction ship blog" sans quotes).
Thank you, it has been good to me to spare those 3 seconds.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Atropos Kahn
Caldari
Dark-Rising
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.26 18:12:00 -
[65]
Sandbox manipulation is what keeps EVE interesting... boost one ship, nerf another, boost one mod, nerf another, tweak this setting, tweak that setting... with the sole purpose of facilitating fluctuations in resource allocation methodologies which inevitably motivates all player activity.
In other words... Your stuff is now good, so I want it. I will have to shoot you to get it.
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rubico1337
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.03.26 21:12:00 -
[66]
first they came for the nos, i did not speak up. because i flew caldari
then they came for the nano, i did not speak up because i had crosstrained amarr
then they came for the ecm, i did not speak up because i had crosstrained minmattar
then they came for the dramiel, by that time there was nothing left to train
Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. |
Stuart Price
Caldari
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2010.03.26 22:46:00 -
[67]
Another Drama-iel thread.
1. If they don't want to fight you, there is literally nothing you can do about it.
2. Tackling them is not the problem. KEEPING them tackled IS. How do you pin down a ship capable of hitting 2.5km/s with an afterburner (Snakes and faction AB gets you 3.5km/s...) without using a mental fit on a ship with tons of meds for webs (which any decent frigate pilot will smell a mile away)?
3. Assuming you've fitted a frigate up for catching it and keeping it there, you then need to have both the firepower and buffer to outfight the damn thing.
I fly a Dramiel because I know I have complete control over what happens. When I choose to engage, it's because I am going to win and there are very, very few things that even remotely bother me while flying it. The sentinel seems the logical choice but then you come up against point 1: how are you going to catch the Dram in a ship that has barely half the speed?
Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate' |
Sprilk
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Posted - 2010.03.26 23:23:00 -
[68]
Originally by: xXSolarisXx
Edited by: xXSolarisXx on 25/03/2010 13:45:32
nerfing Dramiel = another step to nurfing fun in eve!
P.S
tranais 14 mil in jita dramiel 70mil
now what u think the taranis(or any other inty)should be equal to the dramiel?
P.S 2
i dont really mind if all the inty pilots start flying dramiels(if the can afford it) can be a lot of fun in 1vs1 fights
lol, your p.s 2 just proved the dramil needs a nerf... if the best way to make eve more fun is if every single person flys a dramiel then we know its broken as it makes every other ship not fun anymore. things need to have a sense of balance, as well as be different. otherwise why even have fittings on a ship just give everyone a prefit dramiel because everything else now is pointless. it has no weakness and is overloaded with strenghts.
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.03.27 05:08:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Stuart Price
3. Assuming you've fitted a frigate up for catching it and keeping it there, you then need to have both the firepower and buffer to outfight the damn thing.
I fly a Dramiel because I know I have complete control over what happens. When I choose to engage, it's because I am going to win and there are very, very few things that even remotely bother me while flying it. The sentinel seems the logical choice but then you come up against point 1: how are you going to catch the Dram in a ship that has barely half the speed?
This must be why dram pilots warp out when my bog standard omni fit jag shows up.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Get off the forums and go kill someone!
CCP Shadow's Troll List. |
inVictu5
Globo Gym Purple Cobras
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Posted - 2010.03.27 05:39:00 -
[70]
the answers simple... faction destroyers. t2 dessies arnt worth a ****. t2 frigs are clunky. faction frigs were so 2005.
Here at Globo Gym were better than you! And we know it |
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Estephania
Independent Political Analysts
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Posted - 2010.03.27 06:39:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Estephania on 27/03/2010 06:40:27
When in order to kill some ship you'll need either a blob, flying the same ship or a ship specifically designed to kill said ship but absolutely worthless for anything else, this ship is overpowered. Speed is more important than DPS or tank because speed allows you to engage and disengage on YOUR terms. Historically all speed perversions were nerfed because CCP understands it too. Battleships and HACs flying faster than ceptors were hit with a nerfbat. Dramiel will surely be the next.
P.S. And I'd like to see faction destroyers and battlecruisers. That would be awesome :)
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TheGunslinger42
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Posted - 2010.03.27 06:56:00 -
[72]
Dramiel would be fine if interceptors got a bit of a boost to put them at the same or greater speed.
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Aristeia Cersei
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Posted - 2010.03.27 08:14:00 -
[73]
Originally by: TheGunslinger42
Dramiel would be fine if interceptors got a bit of a boost to put them at the same or greater speed.
Something is wrong with your logic, when to fix an issue with one ship, a whole class of other ships require a buff.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.03.27 08:17:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Zeba
This must be why dram pilots warp out when my bog standard omni fit jag shows up.
The Jaguar is awesome, it is the template for how the rest of the AFs should be. Enough slots to allow mixing it up, excellent tank, decent damage .. a nasty little frigate.
Dramiel can not chew through the dual-extender tank before dying and if its the web/AB fit it almost auto-wins against Dramiels, I would run too 
Originally by: TheGunslinger42
Dramiel would be fine if interceptors got a bit of a boost to put them at the same or greater speed.
I have read this a lot recently but don't see what it is meant to accomplish. Regular tackling doesn't need a boost and it won't help counter Dramiel's .. sure you can get there and tackle, but how to you plan on staying alive long enough for it to matter?
Plate Claw might survive, but then you'd have to assume that it will be significantly slower with plate (unless you double speed or more which hurts game more than Dramiel currently does).
Originally by: inVictu5
the answers simple... faction destroyers. t2 dessies arnt worth a ****. t2 frigs are clunky. faction frigs were so 2005.
Faction Destroyers would indeed solve a lot of problems if the power discrepancy that currently exists in Dessie class (Thrasher >> All) is avoided. Wouldn't make sense to create just for Dramiel's though, if/when the AFs finally get their overhaul then you have a good reason for near-cruiser performing Destroyers.
Faction BC's .. as long as they don't just represent the tired old tank/gank I am all for it. The most interesting ships CCP have made the past few years are the T2 BS and EAS .. they offer variety and options to the gank/tank of everything else, faction BCs should be same out-of-box thinking.
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small chimp
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Posted - 2010.03.27 11:43:00 -
[75]
what is the point in all of these whines?
Ofc pirate frigs should be superrior to other frigs? How much do they cost? How about taranis?
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inVictu5
Globo Gym Purple Cobras
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Posted - 2010.03.27 13:55:00 -
[76]
well, I lost a moa to a dram, thats understandable. I lost a cormy, thats understandable. But when I go toe to toe for 10 minutes in a retribution (within range) and have to disengage due to my cap finally running out. Thats just ******ed.
Here at Globo Gym were better than you! And we know it |
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.03.27 17:55:00 -
[77]
Originally by: inVictu5
well, I lost a moa to a dram, thats understandable. I lost a cormy, thats understandable. But when I go toe to toe for 10 minutes in a retribution (within range) and have to disengage due to my cap finally running out. Thats just ******ed.
Hrmm, lets looks at ccp's official stance on the order of frigates again. t1<empire<t2<pirate. Yup I'd say that was understandable too. What you need to complain about is the retri's lack of mid slot for tackle and not the dram's top dog spot on the entire list. Besides if the dram is nerfed in any way people will just start flying the daredevil and face raep everything with it generating a new series of whinge threads. Plus people need to figure out that the raildevil in an evil evil little machine that can eat drams for lunch provided the dram pilot decides to fight and not run away like the usually do.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Get off the forums and go kill someone!
CCP Shadow's Troll List. |
Bud Johnson
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.03.27 18:34:00 -
[78]
t1<empire<t2<pirate<dramiel
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.03.27 18:57:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Bud Johnson
pirate<dramiel
Fixed as t2 and below do not come into this discussion about if anything is actually op about the dram. But seriously if ccp wants to impress me on the issue then they need to take a hard second look at the other pirate frigs especially the worm. If the worm got at least a damage bonuse for its drones instead of that useless rocket bonus it would go a long way to balancing out the huge discrepency in performance in the pirate frig class.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Get off the forums and go kill someone!
CCP Shadow's Troll List. |
Earthan
Gallente
GREY COUNCIL
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.03.29 00:28:00 -
[80]
i have been aroudn since the start of the game , and all balances by ccp, in longer period of times , were tottaly right and balanced the game.
I think inties are fine atm , and the dramiel is overpowered.And very good it will et inline with other faction frigs.Faction frigs could be a bit better then inties but not like dramiel.
To the op :uber powered nanoships were bad in past.CCP didnt kill nanoships , nanoships are still being used all around , just in less extreme form , and reaching 1500-2000 m/s by t2 cruisers.Still a tactic very common.Just not the i win button anymore.
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Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy
hunting stories |
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Baillif
Red Mist Inc.
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Posted - 2010.03.29 01:55:00 -
[81]
Fair and balanced gameplay? THAT'S NOT WHY I PLAY THIS GAME!!!!!
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Kate Machine
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Posted - 2010.03.29 10:03:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Earthan
uber powered nanoships were bad in past.
They were great, you, bunghole! 
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VanNostrum
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Posted - 2010.03.29 10:51:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: inVictu5
well, I lost a moa to a dram, thats understandable. I lost a cormy, thats understandable. But when I go toe to toe for 10 minutes in a retribution (within range) and have to disengage due to my cap finally running out. Thats just ******ed.
Hrmm, lets looks at ccp's official stance on the order of frigates again. t1<empire<t2<pirate. Yup I'd say that was understandable too. What you need to complain about is the retri's lack of mid slot for tackle and not the dram's top dog spot on the entire list. Besides if the dram is nerfed in any way people will just start flying the daredevil and face raep everything with it generating a new series of whinge threads. Plus people need to figure out that the raildevil in an evil evil little machine that can eat drams for lunch provided the dram pilot decides to fight and not run away like the usually do.
So your saying every single frigate class should run (which they can't) when they see a dramiel?
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inVictu5
Globo Gym Purple Cobras
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Posted - 2010.03.29 21:55:00 -
[84]
this is what it has come down too.
Linkage
Here at Globo Gym were better than you! And we know it |
lookatzebirdie
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Posted - 2010.03.29 22:33:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 25/03/2010 15:21:46
Assuming a situation where you have the money and skills to fly any frigate:
Justify flying anything but a Dramiel.
Really, try it.
That's why it needs a nerf. Also:
Quote:
Unfortunately having a ship that surpasses all else does lead to a Rock -> Rock -> Rock situation as people start to fly only... that Rock Wink
Basically this. When one of X needs either more of X or overwhelming force to beat, something is wrong.
Pre nerfs:
Main nanoship counter: more nanoships
Main ECM counter: more ECM, or a custom fitted sniper battleship.
well, daredevil or comet actually. but i see ur point. the dram is now so ubiquitous (even tho those 2 frigs are equally good IMHO) that something needs to give, it's just too damned boring at the moment.
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp.
Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.03.29 22:42:00 -
[86]
Quote:
Unfortunately having a ship that surpasses all else does lead to a Rock -> Rock -> Rock situation as people start to fly only... that Rock Wink
That point is valid only if the ships are free. If the resources are limited and the costs are prohibitively high, it doesn't end up the only used ship.
When 1 ship costs significantly more than the others, then people in cheaper ships can gang up to kill the expensive ship, and in the end bankrupt the enemy.
Right now Dram is cheap compared to its power. But it's possible to find a good price of the power
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp.
Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.03.29 22:48:00 -
[87]
Justify flying anything but a Dramiel.
Really, try it.It costs too much - how about that just for starters?
Go to Jita, convo every pilot you see who's NOT flying a Dramiel, and ask them how do they justify not flying one?
ask at least 100 people, let us know what the real reasons are.
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Zahira Wrath
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Posted - 2010.03.30 00:48:00 -
[88]
Originally by: inVictu5
this is what it has come down too.
Linkage
Wow that's crazy. Definitly a sign that something isent right balance wise.
(diversity and fun my ass, its now "those with dramiels" vs. "those without")
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.03.30 03:21:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Zahira Wrath
Originally by: inVictu5
this is what it has come down too.
Linkage
Wow that's crazy. Definitly a sign that something isent right balance wise.
(diversity and fun my ass, its now "those with dramiels" vs. "those without")
Hrmmm, lets disect this killmail for what it really is. Random ship gets tackled by a rapier and it just so happens that the majority of the gang is in drams which go on the kill the cormy which by all rights the rapier could have done on its own with just 5 terribad skilled t1 light amarr drones which are the worst drones in the game. So by this logic if all the other ships on the killmail had been noobships then noobships would be op and zomg need to be nerfed? L U L Z . . The forums provide so much entertainment its just silly at times and it makes me want to send ccp extra monies each month for the pleasure all the morons who poast such drivel give me. 
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Get off the forums and go kill someone!
CCP Shadow's Troll List. |
Gorefacer
Caldari
Resurrection
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.03.30 04:18:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: xXSolarisXx
P.S
tranais 14 mil in jita dramiel 70mil
now what u think the taranis(or any other inty)should be equal to the dramiel?
You obviously don't have the first clue about how the market works.
The Taranis is so cheap now because demand is so low and people are trying to sell them. Demand is so low because every man and his dog is flying the Dramiel because it's been boosted to hell to be a solo frigate pwn mobile in recent patches.
The only reason the Dramiel has spiked in price so much is the exact opposite to the Taranis, demand is high so sellers are pushing up the prices to cut a higher margin.
Please get a clue before you post.
Not to mention that absolutely nobody has ever argued that taranis and dramiel should be "equal". Two totally classic absolutely terrible arguments rolled into a single P.S.
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
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inVictu5
Globo Gym Purple Cobras
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Posted - 2010.03.30 12:30:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Zahira Wrath
Originally by: inVictu5
this is what it has come down too.
Linkage
Wow that's crazy. Definitly a sign that something isent right balance wise.
(diversity and fun my ass, its now "those with dramiels" vs. "those without")
Hrmmm, lets disect this killmail for what it really is. Random ship gets tackled by a rapier and it just so happens that the majority of the gang is in drams which go on the kill the cormy which by all rights the rapier could have done on its own with just 5 terribad skilled t1 light amarr drones which are the worst drones in the game. So by this logic if all the other ships on the killmail had been noobships then noobships would be op and zomg need to be nerfed? L U L Z . . The forums provide so much entertainment its just silly at times and it makes me want to send ccp extra monies each month for the pleasure all the morons who poast such drivel give me.
No. A cormy can run from a rapier unless its remote sensor boosted which means you could scan it down prior to arriving at its location. Any decent dessie pvper stays aligned just in case unless engaging a target. You would know this but I have a feeling u dont solo roam 0.0. As that takes intestinal fortitude which many eve players dont have. The rapier was the last to engage, thus why the dps is so slow...
Here at Globo Gym were better than you! And we know it |
Nabiah
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Posted - 2010.05.24 15:46:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Nabiah on 24/05/2010 15:51:40
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Assuming a situation where you have the money and skills to fly any frigate:
Justify flying anything but a Dramiel.
Really, try it.
CCP TRY IT ! or clean your own MEss !
Now the very same people that were complaining about the AF ab speed bonus fly nothing but Dramiels.
So now we have the "please-dont-nerf-the-dramiel-orill-cut-my-vains!" campaign.
About the price, if CCP decides to boost eny item making it the FOTM everyone will want it so sellers will try to get more ISK from selling it.
Its not the-item-is-so-good-because-its-expensive. Its the item is expensive because everybody wants it.
Why do we need complicated solution to solve the one ship problem that causes the imbalance when the solution is so obvious.
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Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2010.05.24 16:10:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Nerfing OP only becomes "nerfing fun" when you know it's OP and you have to resort to guilt tactics to try to save your overpowered toys. History always repeats itself around here...
Well, in fairness, winning is usually fun.
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Zions Child
Caldari
Carthage Industries
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Posted - 2010.05.24 16:23:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Nabiah
Edited by: Nabiah on 24/05/2010 15:51:40
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Assuming a situation where you have the money and skills to fly any frigate:
Justify flying anything but a Dramiel.
Really, try it.
CCP TRY IT ! or clean your own MEss !
Now the very same people that were complaining about the AF ab speed bonus fly nothing but Dramiels.
So now we have the "please-dont-nerf-the-dramiel-orill-cut-my-vains!" campaign.
About the price, if CCP decides to boost eny item making it the FOTM everyone will want it so sellers will try to get more ISK from selling it.
Its not the-item-is-so-good-because-its-expensive. Its the item is expensive because everybody wants it.
Why do we need complicated solution to solve the one ship problem that causes the imbalance when the solution is so obvious.
You necroing son of a *****.
Of all the threads to *mumble*
Originally by: CCP Shadow
*snip* Castration successful. Shadow.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.05.24 16:25:00 -
[95]
Nerfing should affect a vast part of features that in the recent years rose up to overpowered levels and are now the "MUST DO". They break the sandbox freedom concept and introduce EvE to WoW mono-rail mentality (even more than it already has been that is).
Dramiels are but another of the errors to fix.
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Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Lorieen
AQ Militis Seprentia
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Posted - 2010.05.24 18:01:00 -
[96]
One thing to think about when it comes to that ships is like someone else had mentioned.... how does it compare with other pirate frigates?
I have always enjoyed diverisity in ships from different races but you can tell when a ship is a little too good when you mostly see them over other ships in its same class.
Some times not only is it the pilots that don't want a certain ship nerfed but if it is a pirate ship, it can also be the people that happen to control the part of low or 0.0 sec where the ships are farmed at. I dont know if that is the case but no one wants their cash cow killed.
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DanMck
Amarr
Rionnag Alba
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.05.24 18:40:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Zahira Wrath
When they wanted to nerf the Myrm, the forums were alight with people complaining about CCP killing off diversity.
When they wanted to nerf the NOS Domi, the forums were alight with people complaining about CCP killing off solo pvp.
When they wanted to nerf the nanoship, the forums were alight with people complaining about CCP killing off speed.
When they wanted to nerf the Flacon, the forums were alight with people complaining about CCP killing off BECAUSE OF FALCON.
And now:
When they wanted to nerf the Dramiel, the forums are now alight with people complaining about CCP killing off Fun.
Look, the Dramiel is overpowered and will get nerfed. When a ship gets used more often then others, all others, its because its overpowered; and that means its gonna get nerfed.
You can yell about how its carbearish, or nerfing fun, or killing diversity, or reuining eve, or whatever but that's how things work.
Get over yourself.
agreed - stop nerfing stuff and go buy a dramiel.
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
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Posted - 2010.05.24 19:32:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Rashmika Clavain
Unfortunately having a ship that surpasses all else does lead to a Rock -> Rock -> Rock situation as people start to fly only... that Rock
Bull. 4 pages of kill mails, only one Dramiel in the bunch. Relatively few people fly the Dramiel, and it does not make them invulnerable.
-- Nah, that's just my Asperger's kickin' in.
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Goshien Aiel
Gallente
The Black Rabbits Academy
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2010.05.24 20:05:00 -
[99]
Theirs a number of reasons the dramiel works as well as it does, but it isn't unkillable. I won't say it's hands down the best, but it's up there.
Quote:
Anyone claiming that they have been killed by a dramiel that was out of scram, neut, web range was killed by the dram pilot by him/her either overheating his scram or having a faction one fitted (you can disengage if he/she cant scram you out of 24km, you'll know this becaue you cant scram himVery Happy).
Blankent statements do not apply to combat in eve.
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Ulwithy Arillious
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Posted - 2010.05.24 22:56:00 -
[100]
If Sir Robin played EVE, he would fly a Dramiel.
When danger reared its ugly head / He bravely turned his tail and fled.
It's a reasonably powerful frigate with the ability to disengage from most situations. The only argument I have against it is that nothing can match it for speed. If you want move diversity in EVE, just slow it down a little.
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Stuart Price
Caldari
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2010.05.25 00:24:00 -
[101]
Fast? Check (the fastest even).
Can operate within scram range? Check (go go dual-prop).
Tough? Check (for a frig, hello MSE).
High damage? Check (guns AND drones, can break 200dps pretty easily).
Selectable damage? Check.
Capless weapons? Check.
Drone bay? Check.
Utility slot for neut? Check.
Adequate grid/cpu/slots for all of the above? Check.
So it controls the engagement, has an excellent dps/ehp balance, capless, selectable damage with incredible tracking, a decent sized drone bay and can fit a neut just to top it all off?
Completely balanced. It's perfect.
There is a reason is doesn't get more kills: people run as soon as it appears on scan unless they can trap it.
There is a reason they die: they have traps laid specifically for them. No ship can be reasonably expected to survive that.
There is a reason some people lose them like idiots: some people are idiots.
If I had every frigate in the game and had to choose ONLY one to keep, it would be a Dramiel without any hesitation. Anyone who knows anything about frigate pvp would say the same. The Daredevil and the Jaguar are fine, fine ships but the Dram is still a superior choice for all the reasons outlined above.
End of story.
Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate' |
Eternum Praetorian
Method In Khaos
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Posted - 2010.05.25 00:58:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 25/05/2010 00:58:29
I find it sad that we have dumber **** to whine about then we did a year ago.
Nano's, ECM, Carrier Cargo Bay Size . . . at least those things were relevant to the over all game play. Lately people have been *****ing about star graphics and a frigate nerfs.
* When I am in Empire, Dramiels can't kill me because they lack DPS.
* In Low Sec, I simply can't get them to shoot at me even if they are in a big gang because gate guns nuke them.
* In 0.0, Bubbles and blobs are the issue, I don't care about a frigate . . . I care about the coming gank squad that will soon follow being tackled [even better warp bubbles and hot drops]
I'll just come out and say it, Dramiels are kind of a stupid ship to be flying anyway. You can't do much in them except grief the stupid and the unprepared, and you can do that in something that is either cheaper or bigger. On top of all that, you are in a FRIGATE hull that is disproportionally expensive compared to anything else you could be flying.
Ultimately Dramiels will get nerfed do to 1.) Overuse and 2.) Lack of creativity on the part of YOU the player. Overuse of a ship type or a mechanic is the only reason why CCP will nerf something, so whether your pro-nerf or anti-nerf, it doesn't matter . . . it will get nerfed so long as people like you keep flying them so often.
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Olleybear
I R' Carebear
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Posted - 2010.05.25 01:27:00 -
[103]
Are people really saying nerf the Dramiel!?!?!?
Umm, its a Frigate...
I've flown them and fought against them. They are fun ships to fly and fight against.
Faction frigs add a bit of variety to the rock/paper/scissors fight. You have to think, yes think, about what to do when fighting against a faction frig of any kind.
So nerf? Blah. The Dramiel has a few weaknesses you can exploit if you use your head.
Dont believe me? Go buy one, fit it, fly it like its an unkillable win button, and when you lose it you have just figured out a weakness.
<<< Just because your pet likes you, that does not mean you are a good person. >>> |
Stuart Price
Caldari
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2010.05.25 01:41:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Olleybear
The Dramiel has a few weaknesses you can exploit if you use your head.
Dont believe me?
In comparison to other frigates? No I don't believe you (I fly a LOT of frigates and can, and have, flown every single one).
Name those weaknesses, go on.
Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate' |
Olleybear
I R' Carebear
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Posted - 2010.05.25 02:03:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Stuart Price
Name those weaknesses, go on.
I'm not going to do all the work for you. But here are 3 ships that can fight off a Dramiel:
Daredevil - Firetail - Jaguar
Like I said before, if the Dramiel is a Win Button, go buy one and fly it like its unkillable. A 75 to 100mil isk loss should teach a person its weaknesses rather quickly.
<<< Just because your pet likes you, that does not mean you are a good person. >>> |
Stuart Price
Caldari
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2010.05.25 02:30:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Stuart Price on 25/05/2010 02:33:18
Originally by: Olleybear
Originally by: Stuart Price
Name those weaknesses, go on.
I'm not going to do all the work for you. But here are 3 ships that can fight off a Dramiel:
Daredevil - Firetail - Jaguar
Like I said before, if the Dramiel is a Win Button, go buy one and fly it like its unkillable. A 75 to 100mil isk loss should teach a person its weaknesses rather quickly.
Daredevil I give you, it kills Drams. BUT is itself easier to catch and kill than a Dram and has more weaknesses of its own.
The other two lose unless they go AB, scram, web, MSE for the mids (or at least can't stop the Dram from simply flying away). Which means no MWD. Which means they have a major disadvantage against lots of other ships.
The Dramiel, with one fitting, has no weaknesses as obvious or exploitable as those of the ships you named. It needs SPECIFIC fittings from SPECIFIC ships to defeat, or a buddy in a Rapier. None of the supposed Dram-killer fits exploit a weakness, they overcome one or more of its strengths and have to sacrifice effectiveness in other areas to do so.
Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate' |
Olleybear
I R' Carebear
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Posted - 2010.05.25 03:24:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Stuart Price
Daredevil I give you, it kills Drams. BUT is itself easier to catch and kill than a Dram and has more weaknesses of its own.
Its all Rock/Paper/Scissors.
Just one scenario:
Dramiel vs Jaguar ( assuming equal skilled pilots )
The Dramiel is no Assault Frig.
Jaguar will eat a Dramiel up close with autos. Thats a win for the Jaguar.
Far away, a Dramiel cant do enough DPS wihout drones to kill a Jaguar. So you kill the drones. Stalemate.
Again, Rock/Paper/Scissors. This fit to counter that fit, so you make up yet another fit to counter the second fit.... its endless.
I know, I have fought off a Dramiel in a Firetail and Jaguar. I've stalemated a Dramiel in both those ships. I've even popped a Dramiel in a cyclone of all things.
1 v 1 - A Dramiel is counterable, just like any ship.
<<< Just because your pet likes you, that does not mean you are a good person. >>> |
Stuart Price
Caldari
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2010.05.25 04:00:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Olleybear
Dramiel vs Jaguar ( assuming equal skilled pilots )
The Dramiel is no Assault Frig.
Jaguar will eat a Dramiel up close with autos. Thats a win for the Jaguar.
Far away, a Dramiel cant do enough DPS wihout drones to kill a Jaguar. So you kill the drones. Stalemate.
The Jag needs ab, web, scram to dictate rage against a Dram. It needs the MSE to be tough enough. The Dram still has more dps AND drones AND has better tracking so it's still a close fight. That same Jag is then slow enough to be lolkilled by most things with MWD and weapons that can hit out past web/scram range (harpies, most cruisers, a smegging CROW) whereas the Dramiel can just evade the larger targets if it wants and simply kill or evade the frigs because it's dual propped.
The Jag, in order to kill a Dram, has sacrificed speed and never even had drones to begin with. The Dram retains all its strengths and still has a half decent chance of winning. If the Jag doesn't fit ALL THREE of AB, scram and web, the Dram controls range and can also therefore disengage at will.
Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate' |
Olleybear
I R' Carebear
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Posted - 2010.05.25 04:22:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Olleybear on 25/05/2010 04:22:49
Originally by: Stuart Price
...Dramiel can just evade the larger targets if it wants and simply kill or evade the frigs because it's dual propped...
...The Jag, in order to kill a Dram, has sacrificed speed and never even had drones to begin with. The Dram retains all its strengths and still has a half decent chance of winning...
Jaguar can just evade larger targets by having the pilot use his brain, ie; dont bite off more than you can chew. Dual prop is using a mid-slot that could have been used for tanking/weapon disruption/something else...
We are just going to go back and forth. We are never going to agree because we both think the other is wrong. Hehe.
Maybe we are both right.
*Edited 1 sentence for clarity.
<<< Just because your pet likes you, that does not mean you are a good person. >>> |
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