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Marko Riva
Adamant Inc.
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Posted - 2010.03.29 01:51:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Typhado3 IMO ccp need to consider a new way to balance minmatar as the advantages of flexibility are not a sufficient advantage for the inability to focus in specializations. Especially in a game where specializing is one of the first things people learn as they start playing.
We must be playing a different game, because Minmatar ships are downright awesome bar a few exceptions.
Yup, minnie is awesome, but I wouldn't mind the rapier/huginn get a web amount bonus, if only a small one so that it goes from 60% to, say, 80% or something. Right now webbing feels anemic especially when faced with fast inties/AF's/faction frigs.
----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.03.29 02:45:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Zeba Mwd fit on the other hand always nearly got me killed as the rapier is terribly slow under mwd and has terribad agility enabling really fast agile ships to 'wiggle' out of point range and escape even if my base speed was faster.
Um... you do know afterburner also increases mass by the same amount as the MWD does, right?
Um... you do know that changing direction from a lower ab top speed to adapt to a targets attempts to reverse direction to wiggle out is much faster overall than when going mwd speeds, right? Quit trying to justify your argument with false nitpicks that don't take all the considerations into account.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone!
CCP Shadow's Troll List. |
Tanaka Reina
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Posted - 2010.03.29 08:36:00 -
[33]
IMO pretty balanced and I can see a lot of them, for example 3 rapiers+ a few more in the same gang, were after 1 Dramiel :D apart from that I still see quite a few of em every day in my lowsec hangout
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Diomidis
Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.29 09:55:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Diomidis on 29/03/2010 09:56:56 Each ship / flying-fitting strategy etc should have it's nemesis:
During the nano-era, the Rapier and/or the huginn were the "solution" against all nano...2-3 webs on anything paper-thin, would mean death in short order most of the times.
Since the nano-nerf, and especially after the latest AC/TE combo boost, most minmatar ships that took a hit from the nano-nerf, received a great boost and yes - even a Curse is not that easy to solo a Vaga/Cynabal. You need multiple ewar modules to counter a single long ranged nano-ship, and that's not that fair: TDs, Webs, Neuts, and it keeps going...com-on...
I do like having a chance to solo, i do like vagas, cynabals and dramiels a lot...i don't like nerfing. But since all of the above got vastly "rebalanced" and raised back to FOTM levels (for a reason), shouldn't their "nemesis" be rebalanced to compensate? And I don't mean "boost the curse to solo them", but do something with the nano-fighters - zi webbers... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game! |
Typhado3
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.29 10:34:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Typhado3 IMO ccp need to consider a new way to balance minmatar as the advantages of flexibility are not a sufficient advantage for the inability to focus in specializations. Especially in a game where specializing is one of the first things people learn as they start playing.
We must be playing a different game, because Minmatar ships are downright awesome bar a few exceptions.
I didn't say minmatar are bad or that we have bad ships, in fact we have quite a few good ships and are doing well balance wise atm. However I think a few of the problems showing up in our lineup or sysmptoms of a bigger problem and we should try and go after the bigger problem rather than just try and fix up the individual problems 1 by 1. ------------------------------ God is an afk cloaker |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2010.03.29 10:43:00 -
[36]
strength bonuses only usually get used on ships that can use one web, the huggins and rapiers of the world usually fit two (mostly because they have the mids and to be vaugly effective they NEED two).
id propose a stronger bonus on the hyena as it only realistly fit 1 web, and a half bonus on the rapier and huggin, so they are better with one web than normal but not as potent as a faction web bonus ship.
ADDITIONAL 10% web strength bonus to hyena, 5% web strength bonus to the rapier/huginn.
this would temp me to flying one again, right now, they just dont have enough grunt to get the job done well, a curse or lach can slow a target just as good with other decent EW effects (50km point or near 40km no cap zone)
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Alsyth
Night Warder
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Posted - 2010.03.29 13:23:00 -
[37]
-Web strenght bonus for huginn and hyena (not Rapier), -better painter bonus for all of them, -more mid slots for Rapier at least
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Rab See
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.29 14:53:00 -
[38]
Ive banged on about this before, but minmatar bonuses to ewar are about Target Painting and 'sub' ewar is webs.
Each EWAR subsystem can be enhanced with ... rigs, modules, and skills. All can benefit from the one 3 catch-all range Particle Dispersion Projector rig; Long Distance Jamming skill; and Freq Modulation skill. Strength rigs/modules ... vary.
Caldari: ECM rigs/1 skill/module. Amarr: TD rigs/1 skill, Neut/NOS rig/(cap modules, skilling offer implicit benefits). Gallente: RSD rigs/1 skill, Scram/Disruptor none (its an on off thing). Minmatar: TP 1 skill. Web none.
Bang on some more. The Rapier/Huggin can't enhance their capabilities much, and who the hell has seen one fit 3 target painters? For Gallente the same, who has ever seen a damp only Lach/Arazu. Yet, pure Neut Curse/Pilgrims ... not even their primary ewar. I suggest there is a case for something to give here. A lowslot module to boost effectiveness of TPs and RSDs, or a bigger hike to potency for the ships bonus, or a supplementary bonus where it matters. It sure doesnt feel balanced.
. . 8/ everyone |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.03.29 15:36:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Marko Riva
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Typhado3 IMO ccp need to consider a new way to balance minmatar as the advantages of flexibility are not a sufficient advantage for the inability to focus in specializations. Especially in a game where specializing is one of the first things people learn as they start playing.
We must be playing a different game, because Minmatar ships are downright awesome bar a few exceptions.
Yup, minnie is awesome, but I wouldn't mind the rapier/huginn get a web amount bonus, if only a small one so that it goes from 60% to, say, 80% or something.
Small? 60% to 80% is a 100% web strength bonus.
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Captain Merkin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.04.01 17:00:00 -
[40]
I dont really have much experience with ew frigs but do have a few to test out knocking around, so will address that at a latter point.
The Hugin and rapier are ships that I fly from time to time, the rapier very reguarly actually.
Rapier has a nice slot layout and from memory can fit 5 medium drones giving it a nice amount of utility, cloak, arty and probes are superb for day to day poking about.
With the rapier you have a big advantage in that you can choose the range easily, web to 60+km overheated and still retain a reasonable buffer tank, the lows allow for excellent improvements to your speed and agility as well if thats what you prefer, as there is generally very little point in boosting your artillery as you have so little of it.
Huggin is something that causes me pain, its a great looking ship with some very useful roles and bonuses but it just doesnt seem to fit the role so well these days.
Slot lay out is mixed guns/missiles which is always a pain but can in its own right prove useful with right skills, drone bay is still fairly large. The main concern is with the low slot layout not allowing for significant improvement on your weapon loadout, 3 lows is tragedy, imo it should be at least 4 lows.
Still the Hugin is an effective ship when it comes to scorching frigs and assisting in vaga and cyna kills, but highly recommend flying with a wingman or two.
Rapier will always be superior in my eyes for its ability to get in somethings face and ruin its day, dictating range and using drones to kill very quickly.. its just stuck to the size of the target it can engage.
I would like to see rapier get one more low slot and an extra drone to give it a boost, webs despite being a big gimped compared to a few years ago still do their job. Proving natural selection and Charles Darwin wrong since 1981.
The Kamikaze pilot
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.04.01 17:26:00 -
[41]
Well since we are going from a boost thread into a reconfigure thread I'll give my optimal changes for the rapier: -1 low, +1 med, increase base speed by 80ms, replace gun bonus for a web strength bonus, reduce hull and armour points slightly and add them to shield. I would never fly another ship with this character if those changes were made.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone!
CCP Shadow's Troll List. |
Liang Nuren
The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.01 17:44:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Zeba blah blah ... my optimal changes for the rapier: -1 low blah blah
**** that.... seriously. The rest of it doesn't sound so bad if you give it the grid for arty fits and a reasonable buffer.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.01 17:48:00 -
[43]
You mean besides it sounding ridiculously OP?
Give huginn more grid or another low slot, dont change anything else. Rapier is fine, hyena sucks but so do all eaf.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.04.01 18:00:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Zeba on 01/04/2010 18:02:10
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Zeba blah blah ... my optimal changes for the rapier: -1 low blah blah
**** that.... seriously. The rest of it doesn't sound so bad if you give it the grid for arty fits and a reasonable buffer.
-Liang
I think going from 4 lows to 3 lows to gain a med would be quite fair and gain the ship faaaar moar than it loses. Every time I want to eft up something new for the rapier I puzzle over the last low and rage about needing just one moar mid. And yes Furb the rapier is just fine as long as you don't mind that to use it to its full potential you have to drop a web(stupid) or extender(quick death) to fit the tp. And don't give me any guff about tradeoffs yadda yadda because a single extender rapier dies far too quickly to anything that can hit it. You Need that second extender and don't you dare tell me to fit a 1600 on it. Now if the rapier had a web strength bonus then losing a web would actually be a viable tradeoff.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone!
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Max Hardcase
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2010.04.01 18:07:00 -
[45]
What about the bellicose, the laughing stock of all EW plaforms ?
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.04.01 18:12:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Zeba on 01/04/2010 18:12:46
Originally by: Max Hardcase What about the bellicose, the laughing stock of all EW plaforms ?
CCP could change the tp bonus to a web strength bonus and migrate it to our poor minnie t2 ships.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone!
CCP Shadow's Troll List. |
Liang Nuren
The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.01 18:22:00 -
[47]
Quote: CCP could change the tp bonus to a web strength bonus and migrate it to our poor minnie t2 ships.
NOSA has run some gangs with 3 TP bellicose/vigils supporting our Ravens.... pretty murderous.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.04.01 18:24:00 -
[48]
New Huginn: -2turrets/+2launchers -gun bonus/+5% web strength per level (75% webs @ level V) -200 armor/+200 shield
New Rapier: -50cpu/+100pg for more arty cannons? Dunno I like the rapier as is really.
Originally by: Jim Raynor EVE needs danger, EVE needs risks, EVE needs combat, even piracy, without these things, the game stagnates to a trivial game centering around bloating your wallet with no purpose. |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.04.01 18:26:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Quote: CCP could change the tp bonus to a web strength bonus and migrate it to our poor minnie t2 ships.
NOSA has run some gangs with 3 TP bellicose/vigils supporting our Ravens.... pretty murderous.
-Liang
Oh I'm sure. I'm just digging for any avenue to get the rapier a web strength bonus is all. And I think the belli is just fine if you use your noggin like NOSA and find a role for it. Same holds true for all the supposed crappy t1 ships.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone!
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Max Hardcase
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2010.04.01 18:30:00 -
[50]
My thoughts ran more along the line of +1 mid and a bit more fitting to play around with. Its almost usefull. I can think of some semi-decent fits right now ( as far as possible ), that only lack a bit of utility or tank to progress it into the realm of goodness.
Base line assumption is ofcourse that the TP bonus gets increased to 10% or something else added to TP's to increase its (apparent to general public) usefulness like reducing target resistances ( I've floated that idea around a couple of times ).
A general role bonus to TP on minnie ships while leaving the EW platforms bonus the same might also work. Fits into minnie versatility and Hit and Run style.
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Max Hardcase
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2010.04.01 19:12:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Quote: CCP could change the tp bonus to a web strength bonus and migrate it to our poor minnie t2 ships.
NOSA has run some gangs with 3 TP bellicose/vigils supporting our Ravens.... pretty murderous.
-Liang
So you propose that TP becomes Caldari EW form and minmatar get ECM ? *Cough* Golem *cough* I could live with that. Since minnie EW platforms have less midslots that would shutup alot of bitterness about ECM as well.
Generally TP does help missiles more than gunnery platforms. So that does make sense.
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Liang Nuren
The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.01 19:42:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 01/04/2010 19:46:00
Originally by: Max Hardcase
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Quote: CCP could change the tp bonus to a web strength bonus and migrate it to our poor minnie t2 ships.
NOSA has run some gangs with 3 TP bellicose/vigils supporting our Ravens.... pretty murderous.
-Liang
So you propose that TP becomes Caldari EW form and minmatar get ECM ? *Cough* Golem *cough* I could live with that. Since minnie EW platforms have less midslots that would shutup alot of bitterness about ECM as well.
Generally TP does help missiles more than gunnery platforms. So that does make sense.
I didn't say that at all, and I wouldn't be in favor of it. I'm just saying that I really appreciate it when someone flies a 3 TP nano vigil/bellicose in my gangs. And no, I'm not biased towards or against any races (so I'm not trying to screw anyone with bad racial ewar) - I can fly them all equally well and like them all equally well.
Favorite Amarr ships: Armageddon, Abaddon, Crusader, Curse Favorite Caldari ships: Raven, Drake, Scorpion, Falcon Favorite Gallente ships: Dominix, Arazu, Ishtar, Brutix Favorite Minmatar ships: Hurricane, Cyclone, Tempest, Sabre
-Liang
Ed: I am *still* bitter that they didn't give me the up close and personal brawler scorpion over this ridiculously nerfed "fleet" scorp. I want 6 launchers, a 5% rof bonus and 30% ECM jam strength. Come on CCP, you can do it! -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Ahz
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Posted - 2010.04.01 19:53:00 -
[53]
It's been said before but it bears repeating:
Rapier TP bonus isn't that useful given the webbing strength. Given the standard fit in the mids: - 2x LSE II - 2x Webs - 1x Disruptor - 1x AB (or WMD)
And there's no room for PAWNAGE.
The TP bonus should be replaced with either a web strengh bonus or a disruptor range bonus.
Looked at another way: Which recon would you rather be in? Falcon, Curse, Arazu or Rapier?
Best Rapier can do in all cases is run.
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Meeko Atari
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Posted - 2010.04.01 20:12:00 -
[54]
Ed: I am *still* bitter that they didn't give me the up close and personal brawler scorpion over this ridiculously nerfed "fleet" scorp. I want 6 launchers, a 5% rof bonus and 30% ECM jam strength. Come on CCP, you can do it!
I was totally looking foward to this change, and am also bitter, its like CCP just gave up or forgot very annoying
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Max Hardcase
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2010.04.01 20:18:00 -
[55]
I was commenting on the fact that the example you posted had the bellicoses helping to support a different races battleships ( and I agree that the Ravens would benefit the most from TPs ). In that light I also find it funny that the golem steals the EW form of a different race.
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Liang Nuren
The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.01 20:32:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Max Hardcase I was commenting on the fact that the example you posted had the bellicoses helping to support a different races battleships ( and I agree that the Ravens would benefit the most from TPs ). In that light I also find it funny that the golem steals the EW form of a different race.
Yeah, it's interesting, but you have to consider what Marauders are designed for. They're designed to be the ultimate PVE'ing ships, and as such they all have not only excellent damage bonuses and ammo consumption rates, but also bonuses to help them hit harder. Three of them require ewar modules to hit harder (Golem, Kronos, Paladin), while the Vargur has a tracking bonus. Anyway, it's hard to come up with bonuses that would have fit in without stealing them from Minmatar.
And it's not as though any Minnies I knew were particularly bitter about someone "stealing" their largely worthless bonus.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Max Hardcase
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2010.04.01 21:24:00 -
[57]
I really wonder how CCP sees the whole EW spectrum. Almost no feedback on the issue. TP is generally thought of as useless. Certainly the weakest EW form. RSD can work but needs insane amounts of modules to work. TD works on turret ships. Platforms do not abound in midslots. ECM works well.
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Final Agony B A N E
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Posted - 2010.04.01 21:36:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Max Hardcase
TP is generally thought of as useless. Certainly the weakest EW form.
What people think about TPs doesnt say much about painters, but more about people.
They do work extremely well for fleets that profit from them.
Rapier and Huginn are fine, you just need to learn to fly them properly if you think they arent.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.04.01 21:47:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Zarnak Wulf on 01/04/2010 21:48:28 Target Painters aren't worthless per se. I put one on my thrasher and it increases my chances of hitting by 10-20% up to optimal using 280's. Artillery in general really shines when this module is used. I've tossed one onto a Mael when I've felt the need to run lvl 4 missions. You can notice a huge improvement in hit quality. They also assist everyone in the group. They don't nerf stack w/ TE or TC.
Having said that they have some obvious drawbacks. They work best in optimal. Blasters and autocannons are not going to get that much benefit. They only really work vs same size ships or smaller. Ships shooting at larger ships get a very minor benefit- 1% or so. They're range is so short that they aren't useful for ships that would benefit the most out of them - Sniper BS. And finally - they compete w/ webs on their specific ewar platforms. If someone in your group has a TP, it is very situational who it is going to help in that group.
If you wanted to make TP more useful: Drastically increase it's optimal. Drastically increase it's benefit. Completely change it by giving it a more harmful aspect. Make them lower a specific resistance on an enemy's ship. Whether this would be done via different modules ala ECM or via scripts could be debated.
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Cartheron Crust
Krazny Oktyabr Revolyutsiya
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Posted - 2010.04.01 22:14:00 -
[60]
Change target painter to a hi-slot module. Ships they are bonused on have only token dps anyways.
Make Huginn 4/4 turret/launcher layout somewhat akin to Typhoon.
Remove the hyena's currently rubbish sig reduction bonus and replace it with the useful interceptor one. Give its one drone back.
???
Profit. |
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