EVE Search - Hyena, Rapier, Huginn: need a boost or no?

All Channels

Ships and Modules

Hyena, Rapier, Huginn: need a boost or no?

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page]
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Voodoo Ido	Posted - 2010.03.28 13:19:00 - [1] Ever since the web nerf a while back, it seems like there are alot less Minmatar recons and eaf's being flown. Obviously, this is because you now need two slots to do the same job as one. As I see it, these ships rely heavily on their ability to control range. In their present state, the compromises required to achieve this ability often result in non-viable or minimally viable fits. Usually what this means is sacrificing tank, tackle, speed/agility, or dps. Apparently, these options are not very appealing to a fair number of pilots who have either sold their ships or left them in the hangar to gather dust. My own Hyena has a layer so thick, I've forgotten what color it is. I can go weeks or months without seeing another Hyena pop up on overview. It seems like a pretty clear indicator of the general opinions of this ship at the moment. Rapiers and Huginns are still around, though significantly fewer than before. And they usually have gang support. Maybe this is the role that CCP intends for these ships? Would it be a bad thing to give these ships a web 'strength' bonus to go along with their range bonus? Either that, or an extra mid-slot to compensate? Although, that opens up an entirely different can of worms to deal with. I'm curious what others think. Are they ok as-is? Were they so overpowered before? Do they deserve some love?
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.03.28 13:31:00 - [2] They're OK as is (well, OK, Hyena is a bit crap like all the EAFs which were imo a bad idea to begin with). Web range bonus is very powerful and needed for tackling a lot of ships, but it is largely a gang support tool. If you use it to solo, well, not much is changed really since you can still web one target to oblivion. As a gang support ship they're still invaluable. I think the Huginn could probably use some love (regarding possibly its split weapons systems and the fact it has worse slottage then a Rapier while losing it's very powerful covops cloak), but other then that, they don't need 90% long range webs all over again. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
MWDrive	Posted - 2010.03.28 13:51:00 - [3] all EAFs need fixing... as to recons... with 40km web, having a strenght bonus would be OP... they aint great for solo... but in gang they are great... especially with all those dramiels/cynabals running around...
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2010.03.28 14:38:00 - [4] They don't need their webs boosted to 90% but something in the middle seems neccesary. Many other e-war ships get a bonus to range and strength. Curse anyone? Let's face it. You see a Falcon and you may very well turn around. You see a Curse and you stop to think. Huginn? (Arazu?) Not so much fear factor there. To a certain extent a reduction in these ships was obvious as they were the only counter to ships going 7km/s+. I think it's swung too far in the other direction though. A fix seems obvious. Take off the worthless TP bonus that NOONE uses. Replace w/ a 5% bonus to web strength per level. 75% webs is a nice medium and goes a ways towards bringing the fear factor back. EAF ships in general need a MUCH smaller signature radius. The Hyena in particular needs it's sig bonus changed to a MWD penalty reduction bonus - the same thing the inties got.
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.03.28 15:29:00 - [5] Originally by: Zarnak Wulf You see a Curse and you stop to think. Actually I try to get a warpin in scramble range with my covops alt and then it's one very dead Curse, if it works But for instance the Curse is equivalent to the Huginn except that it does get something powerful in exchange for the covops cloak and the Huginn does not. Falcon and ECM ships in general operate on a whole new level and are not really comparable to other recons. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Poses	Posted - 2010.03.28 15:52:00 - [6] all of the other recons have an 'offensive' ewar to reduce incoming dps (ecm, TD, and loldamp) the minmatar do not, if they got this it might go a long way to fixing the problem
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2010.03.28 15:58:00 - [7] There's only so many ideas for offensive e-war before they get silly. The biggest issue w/ Minmatar e-war is that the webs and target painter actually compete with eachother. I like target painters. I think they're great in certain situations. I use them. However, would you rather slow down a target 60% or increase it's signature radius by 50%? The former will always edge out the latter. Leave target painters in the game. Remove the "bonus" for them on these ships. Replace it with a small web strength bonus. Done.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Final Agony B A N E	Posted - 2010.03.28 16:39:00 - [8] As a veteran minmatar recon pilot, I'd say they are just fine the way they are. Dont mess with it if it isnt broken. However, if they should receive a boost, give them an extra mid slot each, so we can actually fit that painter in a sensible fit.
Taja Calaren	Posted - 2010.03.28 17:00:00 - [9] Yes, i'd say a web strength bonus would be more than fair. Given the fact an Arazu with scrams slows a target down far more (although at half the range) in addition to having a point on it makes the minmatar recons somehow undesirable. A 5% strength bonus per level should be minimum in my opinion. And yes, the target painter bonus on all minmatar ewar ships is next to useless. Its sad that the only ships that regularly fit THE minmatar EW module are caldari ones.
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.03.28 17:23:00 - [10] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 28/03/2010 17:25:43 Originally by: Taja Calaren Yes, i'd say a web strength bonus would be more than fair. Given the fact an Arazu with scrams slows a target down far more (although at half the range) in addition to having a point on it makes the minmatar recons somehow undesirable. A 5% strength bonus per level should be minimum in my opinion. The range part is huge, you know. A Arazu scrambling stuff is uncomfortably close, in the region where most guns can hit it very very well. The last three guys trying to tackle me with a Arazu like that left with a pod (and in two cases out of three, before anyone else got a chance to land on grid even), while a Rapier with faction point could keep me safely pointed and webbed. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.03.28 18:03:00 - [11] I don't fly the huginn or hyena but as a long time rapier pilot I can say that the web nerf hit it waaaaay too hard. Given than any non suicidel fit will only be able to fit two 60% webs its just not enough to slow the natural prey which is nanoed cruisers and below. FFS a double webbed overheated frigate can ususally outrun my mwd hg snake set 2x nano rapier. This Is Not Right.. Give them all a strength bonus to webs and in the rapiers case move a low to a mid as I never can figure out what to put in that last low but have oddles of crap that would just make me smile a wolfs smile if I had just one moar mid. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone! CCP Shadow's Troll List.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Final Agony B A N E	Posted - 2010.03.28 18:22:00 - [12] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 28/03/2010 18:25:32 Originally by: Zeba FFS a double webbed overheated frigate can ususally outrun my mwd hg snake set 2x nano rapier. This Is Not Right.. Either you are a terrible pilot, or you are flat out lying. The one that shall not be named does about 10kms overheated with HG snakes, and 1.9kms double webbed. That is slower than my rapier without any implants goes, without me overheating. If that hideous frigate has a max skilled mindlinked Loki boosting it, it will go 2.4kms overheated while dual webbed, my rapier without any implants can easily keep up with that on overheat. So yea, you will keep up with even the fastest frigate in the game when it is double webbed, even if he invested billions in his implants and his Loki alt, and you are flying a clean clone.
Aeon Noblemagus Minmatar Sto-vo-kor	Posted - 2010.03.28 18:30:00 - [13] I think rapier is fine because of the cloak but the rapier should get a web strength bonus, slightly reducing web range but increasing either dps output or flat out increase it's its shield HP
Mizz Wolf Minmatar Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.03.28 18:38:00 - [14] As I've said recently on this forum, an obvious fix for the Hyena: drop the TP bonus and give it back the Vigil's speed bonus.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.03.28 18:38:00 - [15] Originally by: Lilith Velkor or you are flat out lying. Actually I'm a bit drunk atm and meant to say ab instead of mwd. It still goes 1000ms though and my point still stands. Nothing double webbed should outrun even an abing clean implant no speed mod ship with web bonus let alone one with the full nano kit. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone! CCP Shadow's Troll List.
TimMc Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings	Posted - 2010.03.28 18:53:00 - [16] I've flown rapier alot, but never felt need to fly Hyena or Huggin because they don't look impressive on paper.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.28 19:14:00 - [17] The Minmatar Recons could use a stronger web indeed, or should have tbh. The Devs thought correctly when lowered the webifier's strength after the nano nerd and the mwd-killing scrams were introduced. I actually like the fact that being webbed is not a game-over moment in every fight, but ships bonused for it, took a huge nerf: a double webbed target now, is faster than it was with a single 90% web. Yes, range is a HUGE bonus, but since the limiting factor with webbing recons / EAFs is point range and not web range, it doesn't matter: most ships that would be afraid of a webbing ship close to their class can vastly out-damage it within point range and scare the hell out of it. Cynabals, Vagas etc, roam knowing they can out-run everything or out-gun any tackler that can catch up to them (or that is "allowed" to catch them), and so does the infamous dramiel. Rapiers are used only cause the web / cloak combo is nice - along with a more versatile slot layout than the huginn. Huginn and Hyena are rare for a reason. At least the huginn could use a hardpoint re-configuration - probably have 4x launcher slots (ala phoon boost) and switch the gun bonus to a web strength bonus. I don't even know what the Hyena should have to make it more viable...all i know is that it should be the balancing factor against a Dramiel or Daredevil etc...all these little untouchable nanos in this "nano-nerfed" era of EVE... Hell, even an indirect boost, like links boosting web strength aswell as range should be implemented...do something... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Voodoo Ido	Posted - 2010.03.28 19:17:00 - [18] It's good to see the range of opinions. To expand a bit further on my initial thoughts... * Regarding the Hyena: It seems relegated to a fleet support role and, arguably, can barely function even in that environment. It has 4 mids. You can fit mwd, 2 webs (at least, better to have 3), and your choice of point or shield extender. It is significantly slower than its T1 counterpart the Vigil, which can reach inty-like speeds. And it doesn't even retain the lol 1 drone. In general its dps, especially at range, is just bleh... to be generous. So you wont be soloing anything very quickly, if at all. It would seem to make for a great fleet tackler, but you are basically forced to choose between a tank or a point. It needs its lows to boost its speed/agility enough to allow even a 'mild' speed tank and some ability to control range. Damage mods (lulz) , cap mods, suitcase?, and fitting mods are also helpful, so any sort of armor tank seems lacking and undesirable. Leaving a shield buffer for the 4th mid, unless you want to instapop to anything that can touch you. Which leads to the question: "Point or Buffer?" And a tackler without point, is 'pointless', right? It can be argued that alot of this depends on pilot skill, and eaf's simply require more skill to be effective and survive. I shall leave this judgment to the reader. Imho, give it the means to perform its function with at least the same ability of an inty, in some fashion. As-is, it seems a bit too slow and fragile, and involves way too many compromises to make effective use of its bonus to have a decent fighting chance, even when compared to it's fellow eaf's. Long range webs would seem to be a very effective weapon, especially when dealing with fast frigs. Yet, even 2 webs is not enough to stop an overheated mwd, in some cases. Sadly, as it stands, you rarely see this ship in battle. * Regarding the Rapier: Given that it's even slower than the Hyena, the web 'strength' would seem even more vital if it wants to control range, especially against fast frigs that aim to get into scram range or even just bail. Dual webs may or may not suffice. Maybe in gangs, somewhat, you can make it work. But stealth seems to lend itself alot more to solo work than gangs, as the more pilots involved, the more attention you will get anyway, which somewhat decreases the effectiveness of the technique. Although it can be done. Solo is much more of a toss-up, and for that kind of isk, other ships might be more appealing alternatives to some pilots. I will admit, I might be slightly biased by my own envisioned role for cloaky recons. It would be great to have a Solo ship with decent survivability and damage dealing, capable of traveling in stealth, appearing suddenly to surprise, control, and destroy its objective. Then just as quickly, fading back into the mist. The Rapier's dps is not great, nor is its' tank, nor its' speed. Whatever is gonna happen, if anything, will probably take a while. Time is not your friend. They may escape your tackle or get in close to get their own tackle on you, and proceed to eat you, or even just hold you until their backup can do it for them. As it stands, this uncertainty is weighty enough to make the ship unappealing to many. A bit more web strength, and confidence in this vessel would greatly improve, imho. Would this really make it 'too easy'? Would it become some sort of FOTM 'I-Win' button? Again, the argument can be made that it is all possible already, if you have the skills. Maybe. But it still feels a bit 'weak', just the same. For fleets, sure. For solo, meh. * Regarding the Huginn: It seems to be more suited in the 'fleet support' role, Imho. A 'combat recon' intended to have more tank and dps than its cousin, in exchange for stealth. A web strength bonus to this ship would seem just as appropriate as the others, giving it the ability to affect multiple targets in fleet engagements. Apologies for text wall.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Final Agony B A N E	Posted - 2010.03.28 19:19:00 - [19] Originally by: TimMc I've flown rapier alot, but never felt need to fly Hyena or Huggin because they don't look impressive on paper. In reality, the Huginn is way superior to the Rapier in its role though. Only reason to fly Rapier is if you want to use as forward scout / prober, for everything else Huginn all the way.
Aralieus Amarr Rising Devils Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2010.03.28 19:40:00 - [20] Under your POV, Pilgrim/Curse need a boost, no? Nos nerf Fortune favors the bold!!!
Voodoo Ido	Posted - 2010.03.28 19:57:00 - [21] As they stand today, Sentinel,Pilgrim and Curse still seem pretty effective, regardless of any 'Nos-nerf'. In fact, they are the most commonly seen eaf's / recons for a reason. Even more so than Falcons, arguably. They have a fearsome reputation that many feel is quite justified. Their frequency seems to be a strong testament to their 'effectiveness'. Nos also seems fine, as far as I can tell. You don't hear alot of grumblings about it, anyway. So I'm not sure that amarr eaf's / recons and nos have anything to do with minmatar eaf's / recons and webs. Am I wrong?
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2010.03.28 20:16:00 - [22] Edited by: Max Hardcase on 28/03/2010 20:15:57 In general I think that the TP bonus on the minnie EW platforms needs to be increased to 10%/lvl. Atleast they compete then with the 60% tracking increase you get from killing the targets speed. Or maybe a 20% role bonus on all minmatar ships ( same effect on minnie EW platforms, but TP becomes a bit better on other minnie ships, its the weakest EW form after all ). I still think TP should do more ( maybe reduce targets resists by a 2% ). It just cant compete on the T2 EW platforms since the webs are more valuable.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2010.03.28 20:27:00 - [23] Originally by: Max Hardcase Edited by: Max Hardcase on 28/03/2010 20:15:57 In general I think that the TP bonus on the minnie EW platforms needs to be increased to 10%/lvl. Atleast they compete then with the 60% tracking increase you get from killing the targets speed. Or maybe a 20% role bonus on all minmatar ships ( same effect on minnie EW platforms, but TP becomes a bit better on other minnie ships, its the weakest EW form after all ). I still think TP should do more ( maybe reduce targets resists by a 2% ). It just cant compete on the T2 EW platforms since the webs are more valuable. Shockingly few people understand how the signature radius of a ship effects the tracking formula. Therefore even fewer people understand the benefit of a target painter. Increasing it's current benefit might be lost on the masses. I'd go the other route for TP if I wanted to change them and have them harm the target rather then assist the "shooter." Make them lower a target's armor and shield resistances. Add scripts for going after specific resistance types. But meh... this will never happen.
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.03.28 20:32:00 - [24] Originally by: Diomidis Cynabals, Vagas etc, roam knowing they can out-run everything or out-gun any tackler that can catch up to them (or that is "allowed" to catch them), and so does the infamous dramiel. I'm sorry, but once a Rapier lands its webs, unless it's already at max speed burning out of point range it's about as dead as they get. A Vagabond is about as slow as a turd once dual webbed, do it at the right moment and they don't outrun a plated dual-trimarked Hurricane, which is worse then half as agile as a Rapier at best and has less then half the speed of it as well and also has a significantly shorter web range, you know. Cynabal is far far more agile of course. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2010.03.28 21:31:00 - [25] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Shockingly few people understand how the signature radius of a ship effects the tracking formula. Therefore even fewer people understand the benefit of a target painter. Increasing it's current benefit might be lost on the masses. I'd go the other route for TP if I wanted to change them and have them harm the target rather then assist the "shooter." Make them lower a target's armor and shield resistances. Add scripts for going after specific resistance types. But meh... this will never happen. The thing why webs are comparatively nicer is that they both reduce transversal due to the other guy's movement and serve as a range control module, and range can be used to reduce transversal further (often to zero, in fact). TPs on the other hand have extra range (which is not useful that often, but sometimes you do need it) and reduce transversal regardless of who is moving (but transversal is easy to control as long as you're faster, which webs handily take care of), and also boost missile damage. Overall, the web is a stronger module. TP would be nice IF you had the extra slots for it once you have enough webs, and it is needed if you have torp ships and such. I absolutely agree that the web choice is better then the TP for the rapier/huginn/lolhyena. Soooo... buff web strength and lose the TP bonus. Or change the TP to make it distinct. I just don't think these ships are "fine as is" though.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.03.28 22:14:00 - [26] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Zeba Actually I'm a bit drunk atm and meant to say ab instead of mwd. You fitted a afterburner to a Rapier?!? Sure. Not getting hit or vastly reducing incoming dps due to no mwd sig bloom ftw. 1000ms is moar than sufficient when you have cruisers and higher tackled with a domi point. Mwd fit on the other hand always nearly got me killed as the rapier is terribly slow under mwd and has terribad agility enabling really fast agile ships to 'wiggle' out of point range and escape even if my base speed was faster. I have had my faction fit ab combat rapier so long it still has the original large core extender rigs on it so that should speak volumes about its survivability under near constant use over the years. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone! CCP Shadow's Troll List.
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.03.28 22:54:00 - [27] Originally by: Zeba Mwd fit on the other hand always nearly got me killed as the rapier is terribly slow under mwd and has terribad agility enabling really fast agile ships to 'wiggle' out of point range and escape even if my base speed was faster. Um... you do know afterburner also increases mass by the same amount as the MWD does, right? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Typhado3 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.03.28 22:59:00 - [28] I think the problem is with the way ccp balance ships, specifically minmatar ships. Their general philosophy behind minmatar ships seems to be, it performs worst of all the races in it's intended role but makes up for it with: flexiblity, speed/nano, extra guns. Rapier (and friends) is prime example of this, it's an EW cruiser but how often do u see people fitting a target painter to it? Or even if you stretch ewar to include tackler webbing you'll usually only see 2 webs + 1 point on it. Compare that to say a falcon with 6 ecm + 2 ewar rigs + 2 sig distort amps. The reason for this is to do with flexibility and minmatars idea of flexibility is we get a bit of flexibility on different ships with the cost being the inability to focus on any speciality. Even in our specialities we barely hold our lead: phoon vs domi, mael vs any 8 turret bs, claw vs crusader. IMO ccp need to consider a new way to balance minmatar as the advantages of flexibility are not a sufficient advantage for the inability to focus in specializations. Especially in a game where specializing is one of the first things people learn as they start playing. ------------------------------ God is an afk cloaker
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Final Agony B A N E	Posted - 2010.03.29 01:21:00 - [29] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 29/03/2010 01:24:21 Originally by: Typhado3 Rapier (and friends) is prime example of this, it's an EW cruiser but how often do u see people fitting a target painter to it? Or even if you stretch ewar to include tackler webbing you'll usually only see 2 webs + 1 point on it. I would actually fit a painter instead of a point if it wasnt for the terribly broken mechanic of webs sending their targets into instant warp when they arent scrambled. Rapier / Huginn arent really EW cruisers btw, their primary role is range control and screening the fleet against fast tacklers. Minmatar as a race is fine, the Tempest and Maelstrom might be a bit lacking, but apart from that they have a huge selection of great ships, many of them being considered the best of their class. And I've yet to see a crusader that can take on a well flown claw, its hands down the best combat interceptor.
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.03.29 01:38:00 - [30] Originally by: Typhado3 IMO ccp need to consider a new way to balance minmatar as the advantages of flexibility are not a sufficient advantage for the inability to focus in specializations. Especially in a game where specializing is one of the first things people learn as they start playing. We must be playing a different game, because Minmatar ships are downright awesome bar a few exceptions. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2010.03.29 01:51:00 - [31] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Typhado3 IMO ccp need to consider a new way to balance minmatar as the advantages of flexibility are not a sufficient advantage for the inability to focus in specializations. Especially in a game where specializing is one of the first things people learn as they start playing. We must be playing a different game, because Minmatar ships are downright awesome bar a few exceptions. Yup, minnie is awesome, but I wouldn't mind the rapier/huginn get a web amount bonus, if only a small one so that it goes from 60% to, say, 80% or something. Right now webbing feels anemic especially when faced with fast inties/AF's/faction frigs. ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.03.29 02:45:00 - [32] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Zeba Mwd fit on the other hand always nearly got me killed as the rapier is terribly slow under mwd and has terribad agility enabling really fast agile ships to 'wiggle' out of point range and escape even if my base speed was faster. Um... you do know afterburner also increases mass by the same amount as the MWD does, right? Um... you do know that changing direction from a lower ab top speed to adapt to a targets attempts to reverse direction to wiggle out is much faster overall than when going mwd speeds, right? Quit trying to justify your argument with false nitpicks that don't take all the considerations into account. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone! CCP Shadow's Troll List.
Tanaka Reina	Posted - 2010.03.29 08:36:00 - [33] IMO pretty balanced and I can see a lot of them, for example 3 rapiers+ a few more in the same gang, were after 1 Dramiel :D apart from that I still see quite a few of em every day in my lowsec hangout
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.29 09:55:00 - [34] Edited by: Diomidis on 29/03/2010 09:56:56 Each ship / flying-fitting strategy etc should have it's nemesis: During the nano-era, the Rapier and/or the huginn were the "solution" against all nano...2-3 webs on anything paper-thin, would mean death in short order most of the times. Since the nano-nerf, and especially after the latest AC/TE combo boost, most minmatar ships that took a hit from the nano-nerf, received a great boost and yes - even a Curse is not that easy to solo a Vaga/Cynabal. You need multiple ewar modules to counter a single long ranged nano-ship, and that's not that fair: TDs, Webs, Neuts, and it keeps going...com-on... I do like having a chance to solo, i do like vagas, cynabals and dramiels a lot...i don't like nerfing. But since all of the above got vastly "rebalanced" and raised back to FOTM levels (for a reason), shouldn't their "nemesis" be rebalanced to compensate? And I don't mean "boost the curse to solo them", but do something with the nano-fighters - zi webbers... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Typhado3 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.03.29 10:34:00 - [35] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Typhado3 IMO ccp need to consider a new way to balance minmatar as the advantages of flexibility are not a sufficient advantage for the inability to focus in specializations. Especially in a game where specializing is one of the first things people learn as they start playing. We must be playing a different game, because Minmatar ships are downright awesome bar a few exceptions. I didn't say minmatar are bad or that we have bad ships, in fact we have quite a few good ships and are doing well balance wise atm. However I think a few of the problems showing up in our lineup or sysmptoms of a bigger problem and we should try and go after the bigger problem rather than just try and fix up the individual problems 1 by 1. ------------------------------ God is an afk cloaker
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.29 10:43:00 - [36] strength bonuses only usually get used on ships that can use one web, the huggins and rapiers of the world usually fit two (mostly because they have the mids and to be vaugly effective they NEED two). id propose a stronger bonus on the hyena as it only realistly fit 1 web, and a half bonus on the rapier and huggin, so they are better with one web than normal but not as potent as a faction web bonus ship. ADDITIONAL 10% web strength bonus to hyena, 5% web strength bonus to the rapier/huginn. this would temp me to flying one again, right now, they just dont have enough grunt to get the job done well, a curse or lach can slow a target just as good with other decent EW effects (50km point or near 40km no cap zone)
Alsyth Night Warder	Posted - 2010.03.29 13:23:00 - [37] -Web strenght bonus for huginn and hyena (not Rapier), -better painter bonus for all of them, -more mid slots for Rapier at least
Rab See Minmatar	Posted - 2010.03.29 14:53:00 - [38] Ive banged on about this before, but minmatar bonuses to ewar are about Target Painting and 'sub' ewar is webs. Each EWAR subsystem can be enhanced with ... rigs, modules, and skills. All can benefit from the one 3 catch-all range Particle Dispersion Projector rig; Long Distance Jamming skill; and Freq Modulation skill. Strength rigs/modules ... vary. Caldari: ECM rigs/1 skill/module. Amarr: TD rigs/1 skill, Neut/NOS rig/(cap modules, skilling offer implicit benefits). Gallente: RSD rigs/1 skill, Scram/Disruptor none (its an on off thing). Minmatar: TP 1 skill. Web none. Bang on some more. The Rapier/Huggin can't enhance their capabilities much, and who the hell has seen one fit 3 target painters? For Gallente the same, who has ever seen a damp only Lach/Arazu. Yet, pure Neut Curse/Pilgrims ... not even their primary ewar. I suggest there is a case for something to give here. A lowslot module to boost effectiveness of TPs and RSDs, or a bigger hike to potency for the ships bonus, or a supplementary bonus where it matters. It sure doesnt feel balanced. . . 8/ everyone
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.29 15:36:00 - [39] Originally by: Marko Riva Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Typhado3 IMO ccp need to consider a new way to balance minmatar as the advantages of flexibility are not a sufficient advantage for the inability to focus in specializations. Especially in a game where specializing is one of the first things people learn as they start playing. We must be playing a different game, because Minmatar ships are downright awesome bar a few exceptions. Yup, minnie is awesome, but I wouldn't mind the rapier/huginn get a web amount bonus, if only a small one so that it goes from 60% to, say, 80% or something. Small? 60% to 80% is a 100% web strength bonus.
Captain Merkin Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.01 17:00:00 - [40] I dont really have much experience with ew frigs but do have a few to test out knocking around, so will address that at a latter point. The Hugin and rapier are ships that I fly from time to time, the rapier very reguarly actually. Rapier has a nice slot layout and from memory can fit 5 medium drones giving it a nice amount of utility, cloak, arty and probes are superb for day to day poking about. With the rapier you have a big advantage in that you can choose the range easily, web to 60+km overheated and still retain a reasonable buffer tank, the lows allow for excellent improvements to your speed and agility as well if thats what you prefer, as there is generally very little point in boosting your artillery as you have so little of it. Huggin is something that causes me pain, its a great looking ship with some very useful roles and bonuses but it just doesnt seem to fit the role so well these days. Slot lay out is mixed guns/missiles which is always a pain but can in its own right prove useful with right skills, drone bay is still fairly large. The main concern is with the low slot layout not allowing for significant improvement on your weapon loadout, 3 lows is tragedy, imo it should be at least 4 lows. Still the Hugin is an effective ship when it comes to scorching frigs and assisting in vaga and cyna kills, but highly recommend flying with a wingman or two. Rapier will always be superior in my eyes for its ability to get in somethings face and ruin its day, dictating range and using drones to kill very quickly.. its just stuck to the size of the target it can engage. I would like to see rapier get one more low slot and an extra drone to give it a boost, webs despite being a big gimped compared to a few years ago still do their job. Proving natural selection and Charles Darwin wrong since 1981. The Kamikaze pilot
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.04.01 17:26:00 - [41] Well since we are going from a boost thread into a reconfigure thread I'll give my optimal changes for the rapier: -1 low, +1 med, increase base speed by 80ms, replace gun bonus for a web strength bonus, reduce hull and armour points slightly and add them to shield. I would never fly another ship with this character if those changes were made. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone! CCP Shadow's Troll List.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.01 17:44:00 - [42] Originally by: Zeba blah blah ... my optimal changes for the rapier: -1 low blah blah ** that.... seriously. The rest of it doesn't sound so bad if you give it the grid for arty fits and a reasonable buffer. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.01 17:48:00 - [43] You mean besides it sounding ridiculously OP? Give huginn more grid or another low slot, dont change anything else. Rapier is fine, hyena sucks but so do all eaf.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.04.01 18:00:00 - [44] Edited by: Zeba on 01/04/2010 18:02:10 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Zeba blah blah ... my optimal changes for the rapier: -1 low blah blah ** that.... seriously. The rest of it doesn't sound so bad if you give it the grid for arty fits and a reasonable buffer. -Liang I think going from 4 lows to 3 lows to gain a med would be quite fair and gain the ship faaaar moar than it loses. Every time I want to eft up something new for the rapier I puzzle over the last low and rage about needing just one moar mid. And yes Furb the rapier is just fine as long as you don't mind that to use it to its full potential you have to drop a web(stupid) or extender(quick death) to fit the tp. And don't give me any guff about tradeoffs yadda yadda because a single extender rapier dies far too quickly to anything that can hit it. You Need that second extender and don't you dare tell me to fit a 1600 on it. Now if the rapier had a web strength bonus then losing a web would actually be a viable tradeoff. Originally by:** CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone! CCP Shadow's Troll List.
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2010.04.01 18:07:00 - [45] What about the bellicose, the laughing stock of all EW plaforms ?
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.04.01 18:12:00 - [46] Edited by: Zeba on 01/04/2010 18:12:46 Originally by: Max Hardcase What about the bellicose, the laughing stock of all EW plaforms ? CCP could change the tp bonus to a web strength bonus and migrate it to our poor minnie t2 ships. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone! CCP Shadow's Troll List.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.01 18:22:00 - [47] Quote: CCP could change the tp bonus to a web strength bonus and migrate it to our poor minnie t2 ships. NOSA has run some gangs with 3 TP bellicose/vigils supporting our Ravens.... pretty murderous. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2010.04.01 18:24:00 - [48] New Huginn: -2turrets/+2launchers -gun bonus/+5% web strength per level (75% webs @ level V) -200 armor/+200 shield New Rapier: -50cpu/+100pg for more arty cannons? Dunno I like the rapier as is really. Originally by: Jim Raynor EVE needs danger, EVE needs risks, EVE needs combat, even piracy, without these things, the game stagnates to a trivial game centering around bloating your wallet with no purpose.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.04.01 18:26:00 - [49] Originally by: Liang Nuren Quote: CCP could change the tp bonus to a web strength bonus and migrate it to our poor minnie t2 ships. NOSA has run some gangs with 3 TP bellicose/vigils supporting our Ravens.... pretty murderous. -Liang Oh I'm sure. I'm just digging for any avenue to get the rapier a web strength bonus is all. And I think the belli is just fine if you use your noggin like NOSA and find a role for it. Same holds true for all the supposed crappy t1 ships. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone! CCP Shadow's Troll List.
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2010.04.01 18:30:00 - [50] My thoughts ran more along the line of +1 mid and a bit more fitting to play around with. Its almost usefull. I can think of some semi-decent fits right now ( as far as possible ), that only lack a bit of utility or tank to progress it into the realm of goodness. Base line assumption is ofcourse that the TP bonus gets increased to 10% or something else added to TP's to increase its (apparent to general public) usefulness like reducing target resistances ( I've floated that idea around a couple of times ). A general role bonus to TP on minnie ships while leaving the EW platforms bonus the same might also work. Fits into minnie versatility and Hit and Run style.
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2010.04.01 19:12:00 - [51] Originally by: Liang Nuren Quote: CCP could change the tp bonus to a web strength bonus and migrate it to our poor minnie t2 ships. NOSA has run some gangs with 3 TP bellicose/vigils supporting our Ravens.... pretty murderous. -Liang So you propose that TP becomes Caldari EW form and minmatar get ECM ? Cough Golem cough I could live with that. Since minnie EW platforms have less midslots that would shutup alot of bitterness about ECM as well. Generally TP does help missiles more than gunnery platforms. So that does make sense.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.01 19:42:00 - [52] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 01/04/2010 19:46:00 Originally by: Max Hardcase Originally by: Liang Nuren Quote: CCP could change the tp bonus to a web strength bonus and migrate it to our poor minnie t2 ships. NOSA has run some gangs with 3 TP bellicose/vigils supporting our Ravens.... pretty murderous. -Liang So you propose that TP becomes Caldari EW form and minmatar get ECM ? Cough Golem cough I could live with that. Since minnie EW platforms have less midslots that would shutup alot of bitterness about ECM as well. Generally TP does help missiles more than gunnery platforms. So that does make sense. I didn't say that at all, and I wouldn't be in favor of it. I'm just saying that I really appreciate it when someone flies a 3 TP nano vigil/bellicose in my gangs. And no, I'm not biased towards or against any races (so I'm not trying to screw anyone with bad racial ewar) - I can fly them all equally well and like them all equally well. Favorite Amarr ships: Armageddon, Abaddon, Crusader, Curse Favorite Caldari ships: Raven, Drake, Scorpion, Falcon Favorite Gallente ships: Dominix, Arazu, Ishtar, Brutix Favorite Minmatar ships: Hurricane, Cyclone, Tempest, Sabre -Liang Ed: I am still bitter that they didn't give me the up close and personal brawler scorpion over this ridiculously nerfed "fleet" scorp. I want 6 launchers, a 5% rof bonus and 30% ECM jam strength. Come on CCP, you can do it! -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Ahz	Posted - 2010.04.01 19:53:00 - [53] It's been said before but it bears repeating: Rapier TP bonus isn't that useful given the webbing strength. Given the standard fit in the mids: - 2x LSE II - 2x Webs - 1x Disruptor - 1x AB (or WMD) And there's no room for PAWNAGE. The TP bonus should be replaced with either a web strengh bonus or a disruptor range bonus. Looked at another way: Which recon would you rather be in? Falcon, Curse, Arazu or Rapier? Best Rapier can do in all cases is run.
Meeko Atari	Posted - 2010.04.01 20:12:00 - [54] Ed: I am still bitter that they didn't give me the up close and personal brawler scorpion over this ridiculously nerfed "fleet" scorp. I want 6 launchers, a 5% rof bonus and 30% ECM jam strength. Come on CCP, you can do it! I was totally looking foward to this change, and am also bitter, its like CCP just gave up or forgot very annoying
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2010.04.01 20:18:00 - [55] I was commenting on the fact that the example you posted had the bellicoses helping to support a different races battleships ( and I agree that the Ravens would benefit the most from TPs ). In that light I also find it funny that the golem steals the EW form of a different race.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.01 20:32:00 - [56] Originally by: Max Hardcase I was commenting on the fact that the example you posted had the bellicoses helping to support a different races battleships ( and I agree that the Ravens would benefit the most from TPs ). In that light I also find it funny that the golem steals the EW form of a different race. Yeah, it's interesting, but you have to consider what Marauders are designed for. They're designed to be the ultimate PVE'ing ships, and as such they all have not only excellent damage bonuses and ammo consumption rates, but also bonuses to help them hit harder. Three of them require ewar modules to hit harder (Golem, Kronos, Paladin), while the Vargur has a tracking bonus. Anyway, it's hard to come up with bonuses that would have fit in without stealing them from Minmatar. And it's not as though any Minnies I knew were particularly bitter about someone "stealing" their largely worthless bonus. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2010.04.01 21:24:00 - [57] I really wonder how CCP sees the whole EW spectrum. Almost no feedback on the issue. TP is generally thought of as useless. Certainly the weakest EW form. RSD can work but needs insane amounts of modules to work. TD works on turret ships. Platforms do not abound in midslots. ECM works well.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Final Agony B A N E	Posted - 2010.04.01 21:36:00 - [58] Originally by: Max Hardcase TP is generally thought of as useless. Certainly the weakest EW form. What people think about TPs doesnt say much about painters, but more about people. They do work extremely well for fleets that profit from them. Rapier and Huginn are fine, you just need to learn to fly them properly if you think they arent.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2010.04.01 21:47:00 - [59] Edited by: Zarnak Wulf on 01/04/2010 21:48:28 Target Painters aren't worthless per se. I put one on my thrasher and it increases my chances of hitting by 10-20% up to optimal using 280's. Artillery in general really shines when this module is used. I've tossed one onto a Mael when I've felt the need to run lvl 4 missions. You can notice a huge improvement in hit quality. They also assist everyone in the group. They don't nerf stack w/ TE or TC. Having said that they have some obvious drawbacks. They work best in optimal. Blasters and autocannons are not going to get that much benefit. They only really work vs same size ships or smaller. Ships shooting at larger ships get a very minor benefit- 1% or so. They're range is so short that they aren't useful for ships that would benefit the most out of them - Sniper BS. And finally - they compete w/ webs on their specific ewar platforms. If someone in your group has a TP, it is very situational who it is going to help in that group. If you wanted to make TP more useful: Drastically increase it's optimal. Drastically increase it's benefit. Completely change it by giving it a more harmful aspect. Make them lower a specific resistance on an enemy's ship. Whether this would be done via different modules ala ECM or via scripts could be debated.
Cartheron Crust Krazny Oktyabr Revolyutsiya	Posted - 2010.04.01 22:14:00 - [60] Change target painter to a hi-slot module. Ships they are bonused on have only token dps anyways. Make Huginn 4/4 turret/launcher layout somewhat akin to Typhoon. Remove the hyena's currently rubbish sig reduction bonus and replace it with the useful interceptor one. Give its one drone back. ??? Profit.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.01 22:20:00 - [61] Originally by: Cartheron Crust Change target painter to a hi-slot module. Ships they are bonused on have only token dps anyways. My Golem would like a word with you. Quote: Remove the hyena's currently rubbish sig reduction bonus and replace it with the useful interceptor one. Give its one drone back. Hey cool guess what ship has this bonus: 15% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty If anything, you should be asking to boost the sig reduction bonus - because the current one is only more useful when using an AB.... and the Hyena isn't nearly fast enough to use an AB in place of a MWD! -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2010.04.01 22:29:00 - [62] Originally by: Liang Nuren Hey cool guess what ship has this bonus: 15% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty If anything, you should be asking to boost the sig reduction bonus - because the current one is only more useful when using an AB.... and the Hyena isn't nearly fast enough to use an AB in place of a MWD! -Liang There's so many things wrong w/ the Hyena it's laughable. It starts at 51m signature radius. That's the SMALLEST EAF out there. Yikes. If you train the skill to lvl 5 you can get it down to a normal 43m. I would be okay with the bonus as is if the ship started at 43m! We have the whole TP debate going on here. That applies to the hyena too. Lastly - 20km is just too short w/ the TE change. Everyone and their mom can hit the hyena in falloff with better tracking to boot. Let's get those webs up to 30km and the ship might actually show up in someone's intel.
Cartheron Crust Krazny Oktyabr Revolyutsiya	Posted - 2010.04.01 23:12:00 - [63] I don't care about your bear ship Liang. And I don't understand what you are trying to say about the sig reduction bonus. The current one the hyena has is awful. Either boost it 7.5% (10% may be a bit much) per level or give it the inty one which you handily wrote out.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.01 23:24:00 - [64] Originally by: Cartheron Crust I don't care about your bear ship Liang. Ok, that doesn't change the fact that what you said was wrong. At any rate, with the new changes to loot, I'm not sure I'd care either way - and making TPs high slot items would make my PVP Raven very very happy. Quote: And I don't understand what you are trying to say about the sig reduction bonus. The current one the hyena has is awful. Either boost it 7.5% (10% may be a bit much) per level or give it the inty one which you handily wrote out. The argument was that a sig radius bonus isn't a bad thing to have ... just that the one it has isn't nearly strong enough. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Thercon Jair Minmatar Nex Exercitus IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.02 00:57:00 - [65] The problem I have with the Huginn/Rapier is simple: It needs at least 2 webs and a speedmod. 3 of the 6 Medium Slots already used. Add two painters and a sensor booster, and now you're left with a 3 lowslot tank. Haha. Or you just leave out the painters and add a shield buffer, as 99% of the rapiers and huginns are fitted. Think is, with the web changes you need painters to help your gang take down that fast tackler. But you can't fit them or you're left with a very expensive ship that's flimsier than any frigate. It's just stupid. There's no possibility you can fly the ship as it was "meant to be". Real men do it the hard way: fly Minmatar!

Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.