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Voodoo Ido
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Posted - 2010.03.28 13:19:00 -
[1]
Ever since the web nerf a while back, it seems like there are *alot* less Minmatar recons and eaf's being flown.
Obviously, this is because you now need two slots to do the same job as one.
As I see it, these ships rely heavily on their ability to control range. In their present state, the compromises required to achieve this ability often result in non-viable or minimally viable fits.
Usually what this means is sacrificing tank, tackle, speed/agility, or dps. Apparently, these options are not very appealing to a fair number of pilots who have either sold their ships or left them in the hangar to gather dust. My own Hyena has a layer so thick, I've forgotten what color it is.
I can go weeks or months without seeing another Hyena pop up on overview. It seems like a pretty clear indicator of the general opinions of this ship at the moment.
Rapiers and Huginns are still around, though significantly fewer than before. And they usually have gang support.
Maybe this is the role that CCP intends for these ships?
Would it be a bad thing to give these ships a web 'strength' bonus to go along with their range bonus?
Either that, or an extra mid-slot to compensate? Although, that opens up an entirely different can of worms to deal with.
I'm curious what others think.
Are they ok as-is?
Were they so overpowered before?
Do they deserve some love?
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.03.28 13:31:00 -
[2]
They're OK as is (well, OK, Hyena is a bit crap like all the EAFs which were imo a bad idea to begin with).
Web range bonus is very powerful and needed for tackling a lot of ships, but it is largely a gang support tool. If you use it to solo, well, not much is changed really since you can still web one target to oblivion. As a gang support ship they're still invaluable.
I think the Huginn could probably use some love (regarding possibly its split weapons systems and the fact it has worse slottage then a Rapier while losing it's very powerful covops cloak), but other then that, they don't need 90% long range webs all over again.
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MWDrive
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Posted - 2010.03.28 13:51:00 -
[3]
all EAFs need fixing...
as to recons... with 40km web, having a strenght bonus would be OP... they aint great for solo... but in gang they are great... especially with all those dramiels/cynabals running around... |
Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.03.28 14:38:00 -
[4]
They don't need their webs boosted to 90% but something in the middle seems neccesary. Many other e-war ships get a bonus to range and strength. Curse anyone?
Let's face it. You see a Falcon and you may very well turn around. You see a Curse and you stop to think. Huginn? (Arazu?) Not so much fear factor there.
To a certain extent a reduction in these ships was obvious as they were the only counter to ships going 7km/s+. I think it's swung too far in the other direction though. A fix seems obvious. Take off the worthless TP bonus that NOONE uses. Replace w/ a 5% bonus to web strength per level. 75% webs is a nice medium and goes a ways towards bringing the fear factor back.
EAF ships in general need a MUCH smaller signature radius. The Hyena in particular needs it's sig bonus changed to a MWD penalty reduction bonus - the same thing the inties got.
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.03.28 15:29:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Zarnak Wulf
You see a Curse and you stop to think.
Actually I try to get a warpin in scramble range with my covops alt and then it's one very dead Curse, if it works  But for instance the Curse is equivalent to the Huginn except that it does get something powerful in exchange for the covops cloak and the Huginn does not.
Falcon and ECM ships in general operate on a whole new level and are not really comparable to other recons.
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Poses
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Posted - 2010.03.28 15:52:00 -
[6]
all of the other recons have an 'offensive' ewar to reduce incoming dps (ecm, TD, and loldamp) the minmatar do not, if they got this it might go a long way to fixing the problem
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.03.28 15:58:00 -
[7]
There's only so many ideas for offensive e-war before they get silly. The biggest issue w/ Minmatar e-war is that the webs and target painter actually compete with eachother.
I like target painters. I think they're great in certain situations. I use them. However, would you rather slow down a target 60% or increase it's signature radius by 50%? The former will always edge out the latter.
Leave target painters in the game. Remove the "bonus" for them on these ships. Replace it with a small web strength bonus. Done.
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Final Agony
B A N E
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Posted - 2010.03.28 16:39:00 -
[8]
As a veteran minmatar recon pilot, I'd say they are just fine the way they are. Dont mess with it if it isnt broken.
However, if they should receive a boost, give them an extra mid slot each, so we can actually fit that painter in a sensible fit.
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Taja Calaren
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Posted - 2010.03.28 17:00:00 -
[9]
Yes, i'd say a web strength bonus would be more than fair. Given the fact an Arazu with scrams slows a target down far more (although at half the range) in addition to having a point on it makes the minmatar recons somehow undesirable. A 5% strength bonus per level should be minimum in my opinion.
And yes, the target painter bonus on all minmatar ewar ships is next to useless. Its sad that the only ships that regularly fit THE minmatar EW module are caldari ones.
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.03.28 17:23:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 28/03/2010 17:25:43
Originally by: Taja Calaren
Yes, i'd say a web strength bonus would be more than fair. Given the fact an Arazu with scrams slows a target down far more (although at half the range) in addition to having a point on it makes the minmatar recons somehow undesirable. A 5% strength bonus per level should be minimum in my opinion.
The range part is huge, you know.
A Arazu scrambling stuff is uncomfortably close, in the region where most guns can hit it very very well. The last three guys trying to tackle me with a Arazu like that left with a pod (and in two cases out of three, before anyone else got a chance to land on grid even), while a Rapier with faction point could keep me safely pointed and webbed.
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.03.28 18:03:00 -
[11]
I don't fly the huginn or hyena but as a long time rapier pilot I can say that the web nerf hit it waaaaay too hard. Given than any non suicidel fit will only be able to fit two 60% webs its just not enough to slow the natural prey which is nanoed cruisers and below. FFS a double webbed overheated frigate can ususally outrun my mwd hg snake set 2x nano rapier. This Is Not Right.. Give them all a strength bonus to webs and in the rapiers case move a low to a mid as I never can figure out what to put in that last low but have oddles of crap that would just make me smile a wolfs smile if I had just one moar mid.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Get off the forums and go kill someone!
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Final Agony
B A N E
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Posted - 2010.03.28 18:22:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 28/03/2010 18:25:32
Originally by: Zeba
FFS a double webbed overheated frigate can ususally outrun my mwd hg snake set 2x nano rapier. This Is Not Right..
Either you are a terrible pilot, or you are flat out lying.
The one that shall not be named does about 10kms overheated with HG snakes, and 1.9kms double webbed. That is slower than my rapier without any implants goes, without me overheating.
If that hideous frigate has a max skilled mindlinked Loki boosting it, it will go 2.4kms overheated while dual webbed, my rapier without any implants can easily keep up with that on overheat.
So yea, you will keep up with even the fastest frigate in the game when it is double webbed, even if he invested billions in his implants and his Loki alt, and you are flying a clean clone.
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Aeon Noblemagus
Minmatar
Sto-vo-kor
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Posted - 2010.03.28 18:30:00 -
[13]
I think rapier is fine because of the cloak
but the rapier should get a web strength bonus, slightly reducing web range but increasing either dps output or flat out increase it's its shield HP
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Mizz Wolf
Minmatar
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.03.28 18:38:00 -
[14]
As I've said recently on this forum, an obvious fix for the Hyena: drop the TP bonus and give it back the Vigil's speed bonus. |
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.03.28 18:38:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
or you are flat out lying.
Actually I'm a bit drunk atm and meant to say ab instead of mwd.  It still goes 1000ms though and my point still stands. Nothing double webbed should outrun even an abing clean implant no speed mod ship with web bonus let alone one with the full nano kit.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Get off the forums and go kill someone!
CCP Shadow's Troll List. |
TimMc
Trans-Solar Works
Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2010.03.28 18:53:00 -
[16]
I've flown rapier alot, but never felt need to fly Hyena or Huggin because they don't look impressive on paper.
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Diomidis
Amarr
Mythos Corp
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.28 19:14:00 -
[17]
The Minmatar Recons could use a stronger web indeed, or should have tbh.
The Devs thought correctly when lowered the webifier's strength after the nano nerd and the mwd-killing scrams were introduced.
I actually like the fact that being webbed is not a game-over moment in every fight, but ships bonused for it, took a huge nerf: a double webbed target now, is faster than it was with a single 90% web.
Yes, range is a HUGE bonus, but since the limiting factor with webbing recons / EAFs is point range and not web range, it doesn't matter: most ships that would be afraid of a webbing ship close to their class can vastly out-damage it within point range and scare the hell out of it.
Cynabals, Vagas etc, roam knowing they can out-run everything or out-gun any tackler that can catch up to them (or that is "allowed" to catch them), and so does the infamous dramiel.
Rapiers are used only cause the web / cloak combo is nice - along with a more versatile slot layout than the huginn.
Huginn and Hyena are rare for a reason.
At least the huginn could use a hardpoint re-configuration - probably have 4x launcher slots (ala phoon boost) and switch the gun bonus to a web strength bonus.
I don't even know what the Hyena should have to make it more viable...all i know is that it should be the balancing factor against a Dramiel or Daredevil etc...all these little untouchable nanos in this "nano-nerfed" era of EVE...
Hell, even an indirect boost, like links boosting web strength aswell as range should be implemented...do something...
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Voodoo Ido
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Posted - 2010.03.28 19:17:00 -
[18]
It's good to see the range of opinions. 
To expand a bit further on my initial thoughts...
* Regarding the Hyena:
It seems relegated to a fleet support role and, arguably, can barely function even in that environment.
It has 4 mids. You can fit mwd, 2 webs (at least, better to have 3), and your choice of point or shield extender.
It is significantly slower than its T1 counterpart the Vigil, which can reach inty-like speeds. And it doesn't even retain the lol *1* drone.
In general its dps, especially at range, is just bleh... to be generous. So you wont be soloing anything very quickly, if at all.
It would seem to make for a great fleet tackler, but you are basically forced to choose between a tank or a point. It needs its lows to boost its speed/agility enough to allow even a 'mild' speed tank and *some* ability to control range. Damage mods (lulz) , cap mods, suitcase?, and fitting mods are also helpful, so any sort of armor tank seems lacking and undesirable.
Leaving a shield buffer for the 4th mid, unless you want to instapop to anything that can touch you.
Which leads to the question: "Point or Buffer?"
And a tackler without point, is 'pointless', right?
It can be argued that alot of this depends on pilot skill, and eaf's simply require more skill to be effective and survive. I shall leave this judgment to the reader.
Imho, give it the means to perform its function with at least the same ability of an inty, in some fashion. As-is, it seems a bit too slow and fragile, and involves way too many compromises to make effective use of its bonus to have a decent fighting chance, even when compared to it's fellow eaf's.
Long range webs would seem to be a very effective weapon, especially when dealing with fast frigs. Yet, even 2 webs is not enough to stop an overheated mwd, in some cases.
Sadly, as it stands, you rarely see this ship in battle.
* Regarding the Rapier:
Given that it's even slower than the Hyena, the web 'strength' would seem even more vital if it wants to control range, especially against fast frigs that aim to get into scram range or even just bail. Dual webs may or may not suffice. Maybe in gangs, somewhat, you can make it work.
But stealth seems to lend itself alot more to solo work than gangs, as the more pilots involved, the more attention you will get anyway, which somewhat decreases the effectiveness of the technique. Although it can be done.
Solo is much more of a toss-up, and for that kind of isk, other ships might be more appealing alternatives to some pilots.
I will admit, I might be slightly biased by my own envisioned role for cloaky recons.
It would be great to have a *Solo* ship with decent survivability and damage dealing, capable of traveling in stealth, appearing suddenly to surprise, control, and destroy its objective. Then just as quickly, fading back into the mist.
The Rapier's dps is not great, nor is its' tank, nor its' speed. Whatever is gonna happen, if anything, will probably take a while. Time is not your friend. They may escape your tackle or get in close to get their own tackle on you, and proceed to eat you, or even just hold you until their backup can do it for them. As it stands, this uncertainty is weighty enough to make the ship unappealing to many.
A bit more web strength, and confidence in this vessel would greatly improve, imho. Would this really make it 'too easy'? Would it become some sort of FOTM 'I-Win' button?
Again, the argument can be made that it is all possible already, if you have the skills.
Maybe. But it still feels a bit 'weak', just the same.
For fleets, sure. For solo, meh.
* Regarding the Huginn:
It seems to be more suited in the 'fleet support' role, Imho. A 'combat recon' intended to have more tank and dps than its cousin, in exchange for stealth. A web strength bonus to this ship would seem just as appropriate as the others, giving it the ability to affect multiple targets in fleet engagements.
Apologies for text wall.
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Final Agony
B A N E
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Posted - 2010.03.28 19:19:00 -
[19]
Originally by: TimMc
I've flown rapier alot, but never felt need to fly Hyena or Huggin because they don't look impressive on paper.
In reality, the Huginn is way superior to the Rapier in its role though.
Only reason to fly Rapier is if you want to use as forward scout / prober, for everything else Huginn all the way.
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Aralieus
Amarr
Rising Devils
Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2010.03.28 19:40:00 -
[20]
Under your POV, Pilgrim/Curse need a boost, no? Nos nerf
Fortune favors the bold!!! |
Voodoo Ido
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Posted - 2010.03.28 19:57:00 -
[21]
As they stand today, Sentinel,Pilgrim and Curse still seem pretty effective, regardless of any 'Nos-nerf'.
In fact, they are the most commonly seen eaf's / recons for a reason. Even more so than Falcons, arguably. They have a fearsome reputation that many feel is quite justified. Their frequency seems to be a strong testament to their 'effectiveness'.
Nos also seems fine, as far as I can tell. You don't hear alot of grumblings about it, anyway.
So I'm not sure that amarr eaf's / recons and nos have anything to do with minmatar eaf's / recons and webs.
Am I wrong?
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Max Hardcase
Art of War
Cult of War
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Posted - 2010.03.28 20:16:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Max Hardcase on 28/03/2010 20:15:57
In general I think that the TP bonus on the minnie EW platforms needs to be increased to 10%/lvl. Atleast they compete then with the 60% tracking increase you get from killing the targets speed.
Or maybe a 20% role bonus on all minmatar ships ( same effect on minnie EW platforms, but TP becomes a bit better on other minnie ships, its the weakest EW form after all ).
I still think TP should do more ( maybe reduce targets resists by a 2% ). It just cant compete on the T2 EW platforms since the webs are more valuable.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.03.28 20:27:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Max Hardcase
Edited by: Max Hardcase on 28/03/2010 20:15:57
In general I think that the TP bonus on the minnie EW platforms needs to be increased to 10%/lvl. Atleast they compete then with the 60% tracking increase you get from killing the targets speed.
Or maybe a 20% role bonus on all minmatar ships ( same effect on minnie EW platforms, but TP becomes a bit better on other minnie ships, its the weakest EW form after all ).
I still think TP should do more ( maybe reduce targets resists by a 2% ). It just cant compete on the T2 EW platforms since the webs are more valuable.
Shockingly few people understand how the signature radius of a ship effects the tracking formula. Therefore even fewer people understand the benefit of a target painter. Increasing it's current benefit might be lost on the masses.
I'd go the other route for TP if I wanted to change them and have them harm the target rather then assist the "shooter." Make them lower a target's armor and shield resistances. Add scripts for going after specific resistance types. But meh... this will never happen.
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.03.28 20:32:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Diomidis
Cynabals, Vagas etc, roam knowing they can out-run everything or out-gun any tackler that can catch up to them (or that is "allowed" to catch them), and so does the infamous dramiel.
I'm sorry, but once a Rapier lands its webs, unless it's already at max speed burning out of point range it's about as dead as they get.
A Vagabond is about as slow as a turd once dual webbed, do it at the right moment and they don't outrun a plated dual-trimarked Hurricane, which is worse then half as agile as a Rapier at best and has less then half the speed of it as well and also has a significantly shorter web range, you know.
Cynabal is far far more agile of course.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.03.28 21:31:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf
Shockingly few people understand how the signature radius of a ship effects the tracking formula. Therefore even fewer people understand the benefit of a target painter. Increasing it's current benefit might be lost on the masses.
I'd go the other route for TP if I wanted to change them and have them harm the target rather then assist the "shooter." Make them lower a target's armor and shield resistances. Add scripts for going after specific resistance types. But meh... this will never happen.
The thing why webs are comparatively nicer is that they both reduce transversal due to the other guy's movement and serve as a range control module, and range can be used to reduce transversal further (often to zero, in fact).
TPs on the other hand have extra range (which is not useful that often, but sometimes you do need it) and reduce transversal regardless of who is moving (but transversal is easy to control as long as you're faster, which webs handily take care of), and also boost missile damage.
Overall, the web is a stronger module. TP would be nice IF you had the extra slots for it once you have enough webs, and it is needed if you have torp ships and such.
I absolutely agree that the web choice is better then the TP for the rapier/huginn/lolhyena. Soooo... buff web strength and lose the TP bonus. Or change the TP to make it distinct. I just don't think these ships are "fine as is" though.
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.03.28 22:14:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Zeba
Actually I'm a bit drunk atm and meant to say ab instead of mwd.
You fitted a afterburner to a Rapier?!?
Sure. Not getting hit or vastly reducing incoming dps due to no mwd sig bloom ftw. 1000ms is moar than sufficient when you have cruisers and higher tackled with a domi point. Mwd fit on the other hand always nearly got me killed as the rapier is terribly slow under mwd and has terribad agility enabling really fast agile ships to 'wiggle' out of point range and escape even if my base speed was faster. I have had my faction fit ab combat rapier so long it still has the original large core extender rigs on it so that should speak volumes about its survivability under near constant use over the years. 
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Get off the forums and go kill someone!
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.03.28 22:54:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Zeba
Mwd fit on the other hand always nearly got me killed as the rapier is terribly slow under mwd and has terribad agility enabling really fast agile ships to 'wiggle' out of point range and escape even if my base speed was faster.
Um... you do know afterburner also increases mass by the same amount as the MWD does, right?
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Typhado3
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.28 22:59:00 -
[28]
I think the problem is with the way ccp balance ships, specifically minmatar ships.
Their general philosophy behind minmatar ships seems to be, it performs worst of all the races in it's intended role but makes up for it with: flexiblity, speed/nano, extra guns.
Rapier (and friends) is prime example of this, it's an EW cruiser but how often do u see people fitting a target painter to it? Or even if you stretch ewar to include tackler webbing you'll usually only see 2 webs + 1 point on it. Compare that to say a falcon with 6 ecm + 2 ewar rigs + 2 sig distort amps.
The reason for this is to do with flexibility and minmatars idea of flexibility is we get a bit of flexibility on different ships with the cost being the inability to focus on any speciality. Even in our specialities we barely hold our lead: phoon vs domi, mael vs any 8 turret bs, claw vs crusader.
IMO ccp need to consider a new way to balance minmatar as the advantages of flexibility are not a sufficient advantage for the inability to focus in specializations. Especially in a game where specializing is one of the first things people learn as they start playing.
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God is an afk cloaker |
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Final Agony
B A N E
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Posted - 2010.03.29 01:21:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 29/03/2010 01:24:21
Originally by: Typhado3
Rapier (and friends) is prime example of this, it's an EW cruiser but how often do u see people fitting a target painter to it? Or even if you stretch ewar to include tackler webbing you'll usually only see 2 webs + 1 point on it.
I would actually fit a painter instead of a point if it wasnt for the terribly broken mechanic of webs sending their targets into instant warp when they arent scrambled.
Rapier / Huginn arent really EW cruisers btw, their primary role is range control and screening the fleet against fast tacklers.
Minmatar as a race is fine, the Tempest and Maelstrom might be a bit lacking, but apart from that they have a huge selection of great ships, many of them being considered the best of their class.
And I've yet to see a crusader that can take on a well flown claw, its hands down the best combat interceptor.
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.03.29 01:38:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Typhado3
IMO ccp need to consider a new way to balance minmatar as the advantages of flexibility are not a sufficient advantage for the inability to focus in specializations. Especially in a game where specializing is one of the first things people learn as they start playing.
We must be playing a different game, because Minmatar ships are downright awesome bar a few exceptions.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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