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What counts as griefing?

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Wiawyr Hunta	Posted - 2010.03.29 02:11:00 - [1] A general question for EVE denizens, what counts as griefing? Given the nature of PvP in EVE to often be involuntary by design, is there even the possibility of griefing in this game? What if one player suicided groups of mackinaws and hulks repeatedly for a long period of time, often getting the pods as well? Would destroying un-insurable T2 ships and implants at will be considered griefing? What if they racked up over 200 such kills? What if they were being paid to do so, with a bounty per kill? I turn to you, EVE goers, for your input.
Popa Cyno	Posted - 2010.03.29 02:15:00 - [2] It would be greifing if someone tracked down another players real life address, and physically pimp slapped them a number of times. On a more serious note, there is such a thing as a harassment petition, if people are convoing you with racist remarks. Also I think it eighter doesnt apply to local or doesnt cover anti-semetic and homophobic remarks.
Deevelian	Posted - 2010.03.29 02:15:00 - [3] imho none of that is griefing. Griefing is a meta-game activity; if you were targeting a specific person over and over with the intent of getting that person to quit the game, that's griefing.
Admrl Cain Caldari Unbound Incorporated	Posted - 2010.03.29 02:17:00 - [4] Anything you do that ruins the game experience for anyone else. That's the typical accepted definition. One I full heartedly agree with. Sooo... Anyone that: Ninja loots/salvages someone with the INTENTION of stealing their profit while ignoring profit made themselves. Suicide ganks a single person or same group of people in high-sec over and over. Infiltrates a corporation with intention of stealing their assets because they dont like the CEO. declaring war on a small corporation just to make their lives unlivable ingame. tracking down and destroying a single pilot over and over and over until he/she cannot play anymore. Takes real life vendettas ingame with express intent of ruining enemy's gaming experience. Hunts noobs right out of starter system just so they can't advance. Pretty much anyone that does anything to intentionally make the lives of those he's hurting harder or impossible in-game. AKA: Most high sec pvpers I know of. ---------------------------------------- Admiral Cain. Yep, that's right.. mmhmmm
DWEnvision	Posted - 2010.03.29 02:23:00 - [5] LOL....
LooknSee	Posted - 2010.03.29 02:27:00 - [6] Originally by: Admrl Cain Ninja loots/salvages someone with the INTENTION of stealing their profit while ignoring profit made themselves. So if I ninjaloot with the INTENTION of getting the mission runner to aggress me so I can kill him would leave me free and clear? Originally by: Admrl Cain Suicide ganks a single person or same group of people in high-sec over and over. But only once is alright, right? Originally by: Admrl Cain Infiltrates a corporation with intention of stealing their assets because they dont like the CEO. So as long as I like the CEO, jacking all the corp assets would leave me griefer-free right? Originally by: Admrl Cain declaring war on a small corporation just to make their lives unlivable ingame. But what if I also want to farm some KMs, not just make them miserable? Originally by: Admrl Cain tracking down and destroying a single pilot over and over and over until he/she cannot play anymore. Hmm, so just tracking down the same guy over and over is fine, as long as I don't do it over and over and over, right? Originally by: Admrl Cain Takes real life vendettas ingame with express intent of ruining enemy's gaming experience. So taking ingame vendettas into real life falls outside the domain of the griefer, as I understand it. Originally by: Admrl Cain Hunts noobs right out of starter system just so they can't advance. Hmm, so I should wait for noobs to make it 2j out of starter systems from now on? Whew, not gunna lie, for a while there I really was afraid I'd be considered a griefer, but your thorough set of criteria has set my mind at ease.
Admrl Cain Caldari Unbound Incorporated	Posted - 2010.03.29 02:34:00 - [7] Originally by: LooknSee Originally by: Admrl Cain Ninja loots/salvages someone with the INTENTION of stealing their profit while ignoring profit made themselves. So if I ninjaloot with the INTENTION of getting the mission runner to aggress me so I can kill him would leave me free and clear? Originally by: Admrl Cain Suicide ganks a single person or same group of people in high-sec over and over. But only once is alright, right? Originally by: Admrl Cain Infiltrates a corporation with intention of stealing their assets because they dont like the CEO. So as long as I like the CEO, jacking all the corp assets would leave me griefer-free right? Originally by: Admrl Cain declaring war on a small corporation just to make their lives unlivable ingame. But what if I also want to farm some KMs, not just make them miserable? Originally by: Admrl Cain tracking down and destroying a single pilot over and over and over until he/she cannot play anymore. Hmm, so just tracking down the same guy over and over is fine, as long as I don't do it over and over and over, right? Originally by: Admrl Cain Takes real life vendettas ingame with express intent of ruining enemy's gaming experience. So taking ingame vendettas into real life falls outside the domain of the griefer, as I understand it. Originally by: Admrl Cain Hunts noobs right out of starter system just so they can't advance. Hmm, so I should wait for noobs to make it 2j out of starter systems from now on? Whew, not gunna lie, for a while there I really was afraid I'd be considered a griefer, but your thorough set of criteria has set my mind at ease. Nah, you're not a griever, you're just a bad person and slightly psychotic. ---------------------------------------- Admiral Cain. Yep, that's right.. mmhmmm
Kirra Liu Echelon Holdings Echelon.	Posted - 2010.03.29 02:36:00 - [8] Telling someone that you like them but as a friend, thats griefing! Kirra Liu / Lord Windu
Phantom Slave Universal Pest Exterminators	Posted - 2010.03.29 02:48:00 - [9] As long as you don't use racial/sexual orientation remarks, and don't constantly harass a single entity by blowing up their ships/pods (without a wardec) you should be fine. Randomly ganking people or stealing their loot/jetcans in an effort to get people to attack you is fine as long as you don't do it to the same person non-stop.
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.03.29 05:51:00 - [10] Originally by: Phantom Slave As long as you don't use racial/sexual orientation remarks, and don't constantly harass a single entity by blowing up their ships/pods (without a wardec) you should be fine. Randomly ganking people or stealing their loot/jetcans in an effort to get people to attack you is fine as long as you don't do it to the same person non-stop. If you ask them to give you ISK or something or you won't stop it's fine however. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2010.03.29 05:58:00 - [11] Originally by: Kirra Liu Telling someone that you like them but as a friend, thats griefing! rofl
Boomershoot Caldari Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2010.03.29 06:09:00 - [12] Originally by: Admrl Cain Anything you do that ruins the game experience for anyone else. That's the typical accepted definition. One I full heartedly agree with. Sooo... Anyone that: Ninja loots/salvages someone with the INTENTION of stealing their profit while ignoring profit made themselves. Oh no you didn't.
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.03.29 06:15:00 - [13] I made a simple chart for you indicating how different classes can interact and grief. ................+.<------------.+ ................-.<------------.- ........killers.+.------------>.-.carebears ........-.+.+.-.-.------------>.+ ........^.^.\|.\|..-..+.++........++..-- ........\|.\|.\|.\|..^..^...\......./.../ ........\|.\|.\|.\|..\|...\....\.../.../ ........\|.\|.\|.\|...\....\....X.../ ........\|.\|.\|.\|.....\....\/...X ........\|.\|.\|.\|.......\./..\/...\ ........\|.\|.\|.\|......./.\./..\....\ ........\|.\|.\|.\|...../.../.\....\....\ ........\|.\|.\|.\|.../.../.....\....\....\ ........\|.\|.\|.\|..\|../.........\....\...\| ........\|.\|.v.v..v.v............\...\|..v ........-.+.--++.-.-.............++.--.- ........forum w***es..............explorers ........+.-.....-.+...............+.....+ ........^.^.....\|.\|...............^.....\| ........\|.\|.....\|.\|...............\|.....\| .........\.\___/./.................\___/ ...........\___/
Phantom Slave Universal Pest Exterminators	Posted - 2010.03.29 07:19:00 - [14] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Phantom Slave As long as you don't use racial/sexual orientation remarks, and don't constantly harass a single entity by blowing up their ships/pods (without a wardec) you should be fine. Randomly ganking people or stealing their loot/jetcans in an effort to get people to attack you is fine as long as you don't do it to the same person non-stop. If you ask them to give you ISK or something or you won't stop it's fine however. Yes, how could I forget that you're allowed to grief the hell out of somebody as long as you demand a ransom or collateral. Something to increase your playing experience, other than the tears of the person you're grieving.
Koyama Ise Caldari Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2010.03.29 07:28:00 - [15] From what I understand there are really only a few things that count as greifing. The only things I can think of that might fall under that category are: Can-Flipping noobs in the starter system. Yes it's a game, but it's also a business so let's be honest it's not in CCP's best interest to let that happen to them. Bumping freighters continuously without adequate reason. I'm not even sure about this one but I have been told if you just start bumping a freight without a reason, a reason could be a poor mans warp scrambler in a gank, you can be petitioned. Spamming probably counts. ______________________________ There is not enough EVE Online in your post.
Baneken Gallente Aseveljet Sev3rance	Posted - 2010.03.29 07:41:00 - [16] Edited by: Baneken on 29/03/2010 07:42:03 Well griefing is any activity that is made for the sole purpose of well griefing. Ofc. in EVE it gets rather hazy when we talk about piracy and other activities but in other MMO's it would include constant killing as soon as the griefed player spawns to resurrection site (corpse/ressing pad, what ever), stalking them with the intention of taking their resource nodes (mining spots, flowers, what ever that is collected for professions with and has a spawn time) etc. the list goes on but none of those definitions really fit EVE as certain lvl of 'aggressive competition' is allowed.
Sherringford Hovis	Posted - 2010.03.29 07:47:00 - [17] Originally by: Admrl Cain Anything you do that ruins the game experience for anyone else. That's the typical accepted definition. One I full heartedly agree with. Sooo... Anyone that: Ninja loots/salvages someone with the INTENTION of stealing their profit while ignoring profit made themselves. Suicide ganks a single person or same group of people in high-sec over and over. Infiltrates a corporation with intention of stealing their assets because they dont like the CEO. tracking down and destroying a single pilot over and over and over until he/she cannot play anymore. Pretty much anyone that does anything to intentionally make the lives of those he's hurting harder or impossible in-game. AKA: Most high sec pvpers I know of. If these points upset you, I would quit now.
Venetta Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.29 08:47:00 - [18] Name calling in local, but only if you mean it. (always remember to add 'I don't mean it really' to all your name calling)
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.03.29 08:56:00 - [19] Real life threats are probably the easiest to spot. The general rules seems to be you need to get some sort of ingame benefit from doing the action and the action is not targeted on a specific player or entity over a sustained period of time. The definition of benefit is wide though but ISK is the obvious one (so you threats to game assets to extort ISK is fine)
Admrl Cain Caldari Unbound Incorporated	Posted - 2010.03.29 09:20:00 - [20] Edited by: Admrl Cain on 29/03/2010 09:20:49 Originally by: Sherringford Hovis Originally by: Admrl Cain Anything you do that ruins the game experience for anyone else. That's the typical accepted definition. One I full heartedly agree with. Sooo... Anyone that: Ninja loots/salvages someone with the INTENTION of stealing their profit while ignoring profit made themselves. Suicide ganks a single person or same group of people in high-sec over and over. Infiltrates a corporation with intention of stealing their assets because they dont like the CEO. tracking down and destroying a single pilot over and over and over until he/she cannot play anymore. Pretty much anyone that does anything to intentionally make the lives of those he's hurting harder or impossible in-game. AKA: Most high sec pvpers I know of. If these points upset you, I would quit now. They don't upset me, they give me blood thirst which I use to kill people that partake that kind of low life disgusting anti-social behavior. But before I kill them, I drain their corpses of blood and drink it. Yummy. ---------------------------------------- Admiral Cain. Yep, that's right.. mmhmmm
C4LYP50 Solarwind Interstellar Mining and Production Ltd	Posted - 2010.03.29 10:27:00 - [21] Originally by: Admrl Cain .... before I kill them, I drain their corpses of blood and drink it. Brunette By Birth...........Blonde By Nature. ------------------------------------------------ "Your suffering will be legendary, even in Hell." "No tears, please; it's a waste of good suffering."
Abbot Laarkin Order Of Mystical Mountain Monks	Posted - 2010.03.29 10:51:00 - [22] Originally by: Admrl Cain Anything you do that ruins the game experience for anyone else. That's the typical accepted definition. One I full heartedly agree with. Sooo... Anyone that: Ninja loots/salvages someone with the INTENTION of stealing their profit while ignoring profit made themselves. I've yet to meet a ninja that ignored the profit they were making, plenty that said they were, but not any that really were. It is a money-making activity that is quick, easy and cheap, and is a perfectly valid play style. Quote: Suicide ganks a single person or same group of people in high-sec over and over. I would not call this grief, rather an important teaching experience. If someone is being repeatedly ganked in high sec then that person is obviously incapable of learning from their mistakes. If a ganker manages to find an individual or corp that repeatedly fails to take precautions against ganking then ofc they are going after them, easy isk is easy isk. The onus is on the gankee to learn how to play. Quote: Infiltrates a corporation with intention of stealing their assets because they dont like the CEO. Here one would need to know why the CEO is disliked, and what that CEO did to annoy someone enough to corp steal. Consequences are a ***. Also failure to properly secure your corp assets is a crime in itself, blaming someone else for your own inadequacy is rude. Quote: declaring war on a small corporation just to make their lives unlivable ingame. There are many ways to deal with this situation, search tool is your friend. However proving the motivation of the deccers is nigh-impossible, ransoming corps is a profitable business. Quote: tracking down and destroying a single pilot over and over and over until he/she cannot play anymore. Again one would ask what that pilot has done to irritate somebody to that extent, I have never heard of this being done for no reason whatsoever. If someone is unfamiliar with the concept of consequence then it is suggested they learn fast. Quote: Takes real life vendettas ingame with express intent of ruining enemy's gaming experience. Ok, this one I agree with, keep RL baggage out of the game. Quote: Hunts noobs right out of starter system just so they can't advance. Lame? yes. Grief? possibly. But again, proving motivation would be tricky. It seems to me that nearly everything that you consider to be "griefing" can be boiled down to smarter players using their knowledge to gain an in-game advantage over those who for whatever reason fail to take responsibility for their own safety. Most of the situations you describe are either easily avoidable, or with a bit of time and effort, defeatable. Just because someone is.. More knowledgeable about a game. More experienced at a game (or certain aspect of it). More dedicated to a game. ...Does not make them a griefer. ---- Originally by:** Sir Carnage Originally by: Marko Riva Why does that read like they're all 12 and have an IQ of 37? I was under the impression they were 37 and had an IQ of 12
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2010.03.29 11:08:00 - [23] Abbot has a logical and correct look on it, griefing would be (repeated) actions against someone for no other reason than to cause harm. The second there is a valid reasoning behind it (profit or the target attracting attention in any way) then it's officially not griefing. Hunting 2 day old newbs in starter systems brings you nothing, you will gain no profit from it and they didn't have the time to annoy you yet. So that IS griefing. ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service
Cat o'Ninetails Rancer Defence League	Posted - 2010.03.29 11:10:00 - [24] pirates count as greifing lol x
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.03.29 11:15:00 - [25] Edited by: Batolemaeus on 29/03/2010 11:15:41 There are only two things that count as griefing: a) Abusing Bugs, since there's no counter b) killing puppies in starter systems who are just learning how to control their ship. For anything else there is always a counter or a way to evade, and thus isn't griefing.
Abbot Laarkin Order Of Mystical Mountain Monks	Posted - 2010.03.29 11:39:00 - [26] Originally by: Marko Riva Abbot has a logical and correct look on it, griefing would be (repeated) actions against someone for no other reason than to cause harm. The second there is a valid reasoning behind it (profit or the target attracting attention in any way) then it's officially not griefing. Hunting 2 day old newbs in starter systems brings you nothing, you will gain no profit from it and they didn't have the time to annoy you yet. So that IS griefing. I agree with the whole killing newbs thing. That said, I was killed within my first 10 mins in game. This was back in the days when friendlycomputerlady sent you to a ded-space to go shoot at "fake" rats. After killing one of said rats friendlycomputerlady then told me to loot it, this I dutifully did, when Boom! Hmm, seems like my ship has magically transformed into a rather badly painted Easter egg wtf? After a few minutes wondering what the hell just happened I was convo'd by none other than the caracal pilot who had just killed me for looting his wreck After a very interesting chat during which I learnt a lot about this new game I was trying out, I went off to the forums to learn as much as possible about Eve. That one experience, while mildly irritating, was probably the most informative moment in my Eve career. At no time did I consider myself as having been "griefed". I suppose "grief" and what we feel/ think it is often depends on our state of mind, and whether or not we can use that experience to better our understanding of the game. Peace. ---- Originally by: Sir Carnage Originally by: Marko Riva Why does that read like they're all 12 and have an IQ of 37? I was under the impression they were 37 and had an IQ of 12
Barakkus Caelestis Iudicium	Posted - 2010.03.29 12:29:00 - [27] There is no such thing as griefing in EVE. Originally by: CCP Dropbear rofl edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
Lexx Khadar Minmatar Tourian Guard	Posted - 2010.03.29 16:36:00 - [28] Edited by: Lexx Khadar on 29/03/2010 16:37:36 As stated its more in the intention than the act perpetrated that seems to matter. Which can make real harassment/griefing sometimes hard to identify. Constantly trying to contact a player and verbally harass them and seeking actions that can lead to pressurizing someone to leave the game intentionally rather than for say gaining in game wealth or advantages, territory etc. I think would be the best way to define it.
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.03.29 16:49:00 - [29] What counts as griefing: - A carebear losing his ship to a pirate. - A carebear losing his salvage to a salvage ninja. - A carebear losing his cargo to a can thief. What doesn't count as griefing: - Any other player in the same situation. If you do something to a carebear without his express consent, it is griefing. You should know this by now.
Triple Entendre Emergence Inc.	Posted - 2010.03.29 17:03:00 - [30] To quote someone from a C&P thread who I don't remember (you know who you are) "Anything that keeps you giggling for more than 20 seconds"

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