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Hazel Starr
Krypteia Brotherhood
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Posted - 2010.04.02 02:00:00 -
[1]
The Tyranny of the Cynofield
I live in low-sec, scraping a harsh living alongside fellow desperadoes of the EVE Universe. We do a little gate-camping, bust the odd mission, reinforce a POS or two, catch a few unwary ratters in our belts, skirmish with our local foes and duck the gank gangs of pirates and anti-pirates that come breezing through our home system.
Where numbers and conditions are reasonable we fight, when not we evade.
The issue that has developed over the past six months is that of the hot-drop.
This allows a prepared fleet of carriers, dreads and motherships to turn up on grid with essentially no warning or preventative measure for the defense. This almost invariably overpowers that defense, causing them to flee the field, grateful to have saved their ships.
The effect of this from a game point of view is a growing reluctance to engage significantly in low-sec because of the potential arrival via cyno of a gank-gang of caps. Since EVE combat depends to a large extent on numbers, low-sec is currently dominated by those corps/alliances which can throw the most capitals onto the field.
Now I don't have a problem with cyno's to move ships around...the issue that I have is their projection onto a combat grid in low-sec without warning or means of prevention.
What I would like to see is something like the following,
a) there should be a 10-sec warning on grid of a cyno field going up. b) there should be a defensive ship module that can jam the opponents cyno field (on-grid) with the effect of delaying the opening of the cyno field. c) the cyno field should be a valid target for defensive fire d) If the cyno ship or field is destroyed, the incoming ships should take some penalty...loss of fuel, remaining at start location, disabling of cyno capability until repair, scattering to remote systems etc.
So if you want to take a cyno fleet into the teeth of a battle you are actually taking some risk. Of course if you don't want to take the risk then stage your caps onto the field via a distant safe location but sacrifice an element of surprise.
This would go a long way to sorting out what for low-sec is a very real problem,
-- Haze
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.04.02 02:27:00 -
[2]
I have similar thoughts about the issue. Hot dropping game mechanic is too hard to scout and it introduces too much randomness into battlefield, and randomness destroys clever strategy planning. There is no easy way to tell who got the cyno, there is no way to tell who may come to the cyno. It may be a single carrier, it may be 100 man fleet. No way to tell.
I have proposed a reasonable solution to make the game better in that respect. My idea is to add a new high slot, active module that acts as mobile cyno jammer with 20-30km radius. That way people could still do hot drops, just not right on top of people who invest some protection.
There was also a bigger long term solution involving the overhaul of cyno travel - where the basic idea is to prevent insta-travel and introduce some time delay, similar to warping, that ships have to go thru on the way to cyno destination. I won't get into more details, they are lost in the Ideas and Feature forum.
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Jotobar
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Posted - 2010.04.02 02:39:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Ephemeron I have proposed a reasonable solution to make the game better in that respect. My idea is to add a new high slot, active module that acts as mobile cyno jammer with 20-30km radius. That way people could still do hot drops, just not right on top of people who invest some protection.
I was about to troll the thread and banter with stuff like "oh if only somewhere in space you where able to do these kind of things" but your suggestion makes sense. Make it 25 and only equipable on hic's and I'm completly convinced.
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King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.04.02 03:16:00 -
[4]
I support a HIC based cyno jammer limited to 30km or less. I do some hot dropping and get hot dropped some; there should be a way to counter it with some fore thought in low/null sec without the use of a system wide cyno jammer. And it doesn't kill the hot drop even if you have such a HIC there, they could cyno in 40km away and still remote rep their buddies.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Aerilis
Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.04.02 05:45:00 -
[5]
I always had the mental image of jumping in through a cyno the way the Protoss warp in carriers in Starcraft
a.k.a. it should take quite a while, with a cool graphic of a cyno field slowly blooming, ripping through the very fabric of space time...
------------------------------ [WTS] Dominix Navy Issues - 500M |
Jamie Banks
Gallente Wasted and Still Mining
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Posted - 2010.04.02 06:02:00 -
[6]
I agree Low-sec is getting quite out of control with 'Surely they will have a cyno on that ship?' in the back of your mind. Currently with no in-game mechanics that favour the dropee.
My advice is use it to your advantage, kite any potential cyno boats so they can't lock you down for incoming caps, and hot-drop them back. This is by far the most effective way of stopping people hot-dropping every Tom, **** and Harry who happens to be passing through low-sec. Obviously, not everyone has a dozen cap ships to deploy at a drop of a hat, but going out and searching for a hot-drop could prove to be very frutitful, also the chances of getting your hot-drop, hot-dropped are quite low, because people wouldn't expect be expecting it. This increasingly works to your advantage, if you are in a corp/alliance which isn't known for it's ability to field capitals.
Join in-game Channel 'Aussies' |
KushHaze
Minmatar Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.04.02 07:13:00 -
[7]
Edited by: KushHaze on 02/04/2010 07:13:45 I to was about to dismiss this thread also, but hey the cyno jammer isnt a bad idea so kudos to you sir. Makes sense for low sec since you cant deploy static cyno jammers, but I dont know that CCP would endorse this as it really only applys to low sec.
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K'racker
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.04.02 07:14:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Hazel Starr
..The issue that has developed over the past six months is that of the hot-drop.
This allows a prepared fleet of carriers, dreads and motherships to turn up on grid with essentially no warning or preventative measure for the defense. This almost invariably overpowers that defense, causing them to flee the field, grateful to have saved their ships...
This would go a long way to sorting out what for low-sec is a very real problem,
-- Haze
hot dropping has been around lots longer than 6 months.. only problem i see is it gives advantage to those who have more isk, that can field a cap fleet. buying your way to victory is not a good game mechanic.
you fail to think thru your proposed solutions, however. instead only suggesting ways that will improve your own game play, forgetting that there's other players who like the way things are, and who have substantial investments of training and isk in a tactic that is many years old.
you've proposed:
a) there should be a 10-sec warning on grid of a cyno field going up.
how will this work on covops cyno ships? will they become visible and attackable for the 10 seconds, before they can open the cyno? and would this do anything to help what you consider a problem, except allow you to almost certainly escape? i'm pretty sure you warp out as soon as a cyno goes up, are you saying you'd stick around if there was a 10 second delay?
b) there should be a defensive ship module that can jam the opponents cyno field (on-grid) with the effect of delaying the opening of the cyno field.
neutral cyno jammers.. npc corp cyno jammers.. multiple cloaked neutral npc corp cyno jammers.. (ofc with a 10 second warning to get withing 40 km, or however far you'd like the jamming effect to work, of the now-visible cyno ship)
c) the cyno field should be a valid target for defensive fire
so if it was attackable, after a 10 second warning, then you'd stay and see what comes thru? how many hp's do you suggest; surely it's something that you could destroy with your average size fleet. which means a larger fleet could pop them pretty much instantly. again, you look for game changes that enhance only your own style, without thinking of others.
d) If the cyno ship or field is destroyed, the incoming ships should take some penalty...loss of fuel, remaining at start location, disabling of cyno capability until repair, scattering to remote systems etc.
there already is a penalty; if the cyno is destroyed, whatever's on the other side doesn't make it through, leaving the ships that have jumped without their entire fleet.
when you suggest game changes, think about the other folks who play, those that like the way things are, or * those that have adapted and use the game mechanics to their advantage *
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KushHaze
Minmatar Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.04.02 07:29:00 -
[9]
I was also thinking of another idea, but I don't know for sure if it would work. What if cyno fields came from a probe and not the ships itself, for instance you could load cyno probes in a interdictor i.e. saber or anything that can mount a probe launcher.
Interdictors could come flying in and drop a few cyno's with a balanced hp so that decent sized fleets could pop them, but they would need to be on thier toes in order to do so. It would require some skill in order to hot drop and it would bring another use to interdictors in large fleet fights.
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Chocratess
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Posted - 2010.04.02 09:10:00 -
[10]
I like the idea of a mobile short range cyno jammer, but your reasons are flawed. If your tactics arent working against this, change your tactics, dont come complaining about game imbalance and what not. Touch not the Cat bot a Glove |
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Hidden Snake
Caldari Inglorious-Basterds
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Posted - 2010.04.02 09:35:00 -
[11]
I am not cyno expert .... but how about just limiting number of ships comming through one cyno .... like 10 ... so you can count based on number of cynos.
hot drops are part of the game. no matter how they suck in low sec and yes it is rich boys wild card.
"There is no honor in war, so do not seek it here" |
Koshs SC
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Posted - 2010.04.02 13:29:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hidden Snake I am not cyno expert .... but how about just limiting number of ships comming through one cyno .... like 10 ... so you can count based on number of cynos.
hot drops are part of the game. no matter how they suck in low sec and yes it is rich boys wild card.
what when you have 250 ships to jump trough? having to light 25 cyno to jump your fleet is ******ed
lowsec isn't the only place where cynos are used. if you don't want to get hotdropped, don't fight known hotdroppers, or fly stuff that can get away if they do get dropped. people have always done it, no reason to change it |
King Gore
Gore Squad
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Posted - 2010.04.02 13:57:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Koshs SC
Originally by: Hidden Snake I am not cyno expert .... but how about just limiting number of ships comming through one cyno .... like 10 ... so you can count based on number of cynos.
hot drops are part of the game. no matter how they suck in low sec and yes it is rich boys wild card.
what when you have 250 ships to jump trough? having to light 25 cyno to jump your fleet is ******ed
lowsec isn't the only place where cynos are used. if you don't want to get hotdropped, don't fight known hotdroppers, or fly stuff that can get away if they do get dropped. people have always done it, no reason to change it
This. I'd like to add, hot drop them. - Come one come all to my Carnaval of Carnage, where I'll slice and dice and peel off your skin like an orange. |
Fat Uncle
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Posted - 2010.04.02 14:48:00 -
[14]
You can always go play empire wars with privateer. Fact is that most campers use scouts to avoid combat unless they outnumber the opponent by 2 to 1 or better. So the only way to get a fight is to use a small gang supported by a triage carrier or titan bridge.
If you get hotdropped too often, there is always more parties that might be interested in doing a counter hotdrop.
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Shepard Book
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.04.02 15:07:00 -
[15]
You should welcome it and be ready to kill a capital or aligned just in tackle range. The majority of your fleet should be able to get away from a hot drop in low sec without bubbles. I doubt you will hear 0.0 people crying for this at all. The only problem is your tactics.
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Inepsa1987
Gallente Crimson Star Empire Symbiogenesis
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Posted - 2010.04.02 15:46:00 -
[16]
There should be a script to load into heavy dictors to have a chance of jamming a cyno. Kinda like ECM. Your Cyno would have base strength and go up with your skills. And the same with the dictor script.
But to be honest to be able to jam a cyno, you should have to be stationary and burn fuel just like a cyno ship does. If it takes an outside source of power to light a cyno, you need a lot to jam it back up.
I dont think their should be a warning for cyno's, I think it showing up on your overview is more than enough.
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Cameron Freerunner
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Posted - 2010.04.02 16:10:00 -
[17]
So you want a fairly cheap module to disrupt a tactic that takes an incredible amount of effort to put into effect: * the supply chain for jump fuel goes all the way down to the level of ice mining and the logistics necessary to gather and move it to fleet and stash points are staggering in scope
* the skills training necessary to fly the ships that can mount cynos/portals and then the skills necessary to open covert cynos, covert jump portals, regular cynos, and regular jump portals are in the range of 1 year of skill training (less for the cyno ships, but they're useless without a portal ship)
* the resources necessary to build or buy and then deploy those ships goes well over 10 to 20 billion, depending on fleet composition and fittings
* the resources, training, and RL skills necessary to build up a good fleet, get it working like a well-oiled machine, and then retain the pilots you worked so hard to train takes a lot of time, in some cases years for the best hot drop fleets
* the time spent and the number of scouts, force recons, and probers necessary to cover a vast number of systems for the purpose of finding and stalking targets is substantial. I know I've sat waiting for hours while our FC stalked targets.
You make it sound like its the easiest thing in the world and it should be nerfed because a 5 man roaming gang is at a disadvantage. Of course its at a disadvantage, its contending with a force that took many billions, many months, many people, and a lot of work to put together. Thats the reward for hard work--a very powerful weapon.
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foksieloy
Minmatar Universal Army Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.04.02 16:47:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Cameron Freerunner stuff
Finally a breath of sanity here. _______________________ We come for our people! |
Wo nko
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Posted - 2010.04.02 18:04:00 -
[19]
Spotted, collected, retrieved. (tears)
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang High Treason Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.02 18:29:00 -
[20]
That module could be soemthing a BLACK ops use. That would give black ops an usage, and would ensure it to not be cheap.
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Cameron Freerunner
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Posted - 2010.04.02 18:46:00 -
[21]
A couple of quick follow-up points:
* there is a natural limit to the number of ships that can be jumped through: available fuel in the hold, cycle time, and the destruction of the cyno
* by definition, the covert ops cyno/portal are designed for the purpose of circumventing system-wide cyno jamming. In other words, they aren't supposed to be jammed.
* by way of analogy, what you are suggesting (10 sec warning) is that the SEALs, Green Berets, etc sound an airhorn and flash lights before they parachute into the landing zone. What purpose would cynos serve if everyone ran away immediately or, even better in your scenario, launched bombs into the drop zone?
* if a cyno pilot gets popped, the cyno immediately drops. Not only do pilots get stuck in the origin system, but pilots who have left the origin system but not arrived at the cyno will be dropped at random points all over the system. A portion of them will be dropped inside planets/moons/the sun and will ejected at incredible speeds, which takes forever to slow down and align to the original drop zone.
If you don't want to get hot dropped, I have a few pieces of advice. Never engage a solo recon unless you're prepared for a hot drop. Open your map and dotlan and look at the systems in your region for clusters of kills. Go to the same system on dotlan and scour the killmails for SBs, carriers, etc.. By going through the killmails, you should also now have identified the cyno characters--avoid them. Also check your map for cyno fields. If they are using capitals, it shouldn't be hard to figure out their origin system and thus their strike range.
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King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.04.02 19:59:00 -
[22]
These are fair points and yeah, actually setting up a proper hotdrop isn't a quick or easy thing. You need a few subcapital non-cynoing heavy tacklers to grab ****, you need the cyno bait ship, you need the carriers and lastly you need something actually worth hotdropping. But, a very limited mobile cyno jammer on a HIC is a good idea.
I am opposed to the 10 second warning and of course the cyno jammer should not impact covert cyno's. But a 30km jam range vs normal cyno's is fair. As I said previously, it doesn't prevent hotdrops, it just forces them to cyno in at a little more range.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Saphyire
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Posted - 2010.04.03 08:21:00 -
[23]
It stands to reason that any tactic, no matter how expensive or well-organized, should have some sort of counter available in the gameplay aspect. Just because you spent all of that time and energy setting up a hotdrop shouldn't mean you get cruise control to win, and currently it does. If these roaming gangs have enough sense to equip a HIC with a module that would shortrange jam or redirect a cyno, then great - perhaps it shouldn't jam, maybe a 30km bubble range and when a cyno is lit inside of the bubble, all ships appear on the edge of the bubble instead of inside. Perhaps as earlier suggested it could work on the ECM-type mechanic, whatever. There are many ways this could be implemented.
You accuse people of only catering to their gameplay and not keeping others play in mind, yet you spout the same garbage right back at them. Invincible fleet of hotdrop cyno shouldn't have any counter except another, larger hotdrop... does this really seem like a good system to you? When lowsec is already the empty wasteland of EVE? I would call that shortsighted and a bit hypocritical. Pew Pew. |
Swatyy
Amarr Evolving Paradigms
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Posted - 2010.04.03 11:09:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Hazel Starr
The effect of this from a game point of view is a growing reluctance to engage significantly in low-sec because of the potential arrival via cyno of a gank-gang of caps. Since EVE combat depends to a large extent on numbers, low-sec is currently dominated by those corps/alliances which can throw the most capitals onto the field.
Be the first gang to drop a cyno.
Maybe you have caps ready to come through. Maybe you don't. The point is you can change the mathematics of war simply by putting one down. The mechanics allow a weak force to appear strong, to offer the appearance of overwhelming power. Find ways to use it; complaining makes my head hurt. |
eliminator2
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.03 12:14:00 -
[25]
agreed that low-sec is to hotdroppy and that caps online has allready started
but the module to me needs more longer range than 30km its way to easy to get a ship 30km away with a cyno and drop it -----------------------------------------------
I met Eliminator1..... I chewed it up, and spat it out. Now, he is my minion.
I kill miners and mission runners people say, I call them target pra |
Grut
The Protei
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Posted - 2010.04.03 13:15:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Swatyy
Be the first gang to drop a cyno.
Maybe you have caps ready to come through. Maybe you don't. The point is you can change the mathematics of war simply by putting one down. The mechanics allow a weak force to appear strong, to offer the appearance of overwhelming power. Find ways to use it; complaining makes my head hurt.
I call bs .. the counter to hotdropping is to bring enough guys that you can gank your target before help arrives ... Yay thats great for gameplay. Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know...
Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought |
Chocratess
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Posted - 2010.04.03 18:23:00 -
[27]
There should be a counter that isnt just do the same thing, only bigger. That being said, there were some good points about the logistics of getting a hotdrop together. The counter cant be a simple module (or script) that will completely negate the cyno. It would probably have to be chance based, or have limited range, and require a lot of skills (cyno 5 on top of propulsion jamming 5 for instance because you need to know how they work to jam them ). And also covert cyno's shouldnt be able to be jammed because if a static system jammer cant jam them, what hope does a single ship have. I'm curious, if you light a cyno inside a dictor bubble do you come out at the edge or at the cyno? Like was said above that would be a good compromise, although i dont really know what 30km's will give you when a fleet gets dropped on you Touch not the Cat bot a Glove |
Cameron Freerunner
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Posted - 2010.04.05 15:08:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Chocratess I'm curious, if you light a cyno inside a dictor bubble do you come out at the edge or at the cyno? Like was said above that would be a good compromise, although i dont really know what 30km's will give you when a fleet gets dropped on you
The cyno field works normally and its field determines where the ships will jump through. Depending on where in the bubble the cyno is, some of the ships will come in inside the bubble, some outside.
Excellent question; what good would 30k do? It seems clear the basic idea is to keep a cap ship from dropping directly on your head with smartbombs. But thats all a hot dropped cap can do really. They can't lock you in a reasonable amount of time, so unless you happen to be within range of the smartbombs when they appear I don't know why you would need such a module. Clearly, if you don't bunch up your ships into a 20km sphere, the hot drop isn't going to do much damage. There is a much easier counter to the hot drop. Run. What are you hanging around for? Hoping for a carrier kill?
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Koshs SC
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Posted - 2010.04.05 16:34:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Chocratess There should be a counter that isnt just do the same thing, only bigger.
the counter is to go smaller... every tried to hotdrop a hac gang? gl catching any of them then drag the fight away from the carriers (50+km away or on the other side of the gate) and keep fighting
cynos are fine the way they are, no need for ridiculous mods... just use your brains
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Ms Michigan
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Posted - 2010.04.05 17:19:00 -
[30]
This is a great discussion and agreed- everything needs its balance. This thread should be move to the town hall CSM suggestion forum.
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