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The Tyranny of the Cynofield

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Hazel Starr Krypteia Brotherhood	Posted - 2010.04.02 02:00:00 - [1] The Tyranny of the Cynofield I live in low-sec, scraping a harsh living alongside fellow desperadoes of the EVE Universe. We do a little gate-camping, bust the odd mission, reinforce a POS or two, catch a few unwary ratters in our belts, skirmish with our local foes and duck the gank gangs of pirates and anti-pirates that come breezing through our home system. Where numbers and conditions are reasonable we fight, when not we evade. The issue that has developed over the past six months is that of the hot-drop. This allows a prepared fleet of carriers, dreads and motherships to turn up on grid with essentially no warning or preventative measure for the defense. This almost invariably overpowers that defense, causing them to flee the field, grateful to have saved their ships. The effect of this from a game point of view is a growing reluctance to engage significantly in low-sec because of the potential arrival via cyno of a gank-gang of caps. Since EVE combat depends to a large extent on numbers, low-sec is currently dominated by those corps/alliances which can throw the most capitals onto the field. Now I don't have a problem with cyno's to move ships around...the issue that I have is their projection onto a combat grid in low-sec without warning or means of prevention. What I would like to see is something like the following, a) there should be a 10-sec warning on grid of a cyno field going up. b) there should be a defensive ship module that can jam the opponents cyno field (on-grid) with the effect of delaying the opening of the cyno field. c) the cyno field should be a valid target for defensive fire d) If the cyno ship or field is destroyed, the incoming ships should take some penalty...loss of fuel, remaining at start location, disabling of cyno capability until repair, scattering to remote systems etc. So if you want to take a cyno fleet into the teeth of a battle you are actually taking some risk. Of course if you don't want to take the risk then stage your caps onto the field via a distant safe location but sacrifice an element of surprise. This would go a long way to sorting out what for low-sec is a very real problem, -- Haze
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.02 02:27:00 - [2] I have similar thoughts about the issue. Hot dropping game mechanic is too hard to scout and it introduces too much randomness into battlefield, and randomness destroys clever strategy planning. There is no easy way to tell who got the cyno, there is no way to tell who may come to the cyno. It may be a single carrier, it may be 100 man fleet. No way to tell. I have proposed a reasonable solution to make the game better in that respect. My idea is to add a new high slot, active module that acts as mobile cyno jammer with 20-30km radius. That way people could still do hot drops, just not right on top of people who invest some protection. There was also a bigger long term solution involving the overhaul of cyno travel - where the basic idea is to prevent insta-travel and introduce some time delay, similar to warping, that ships have to go thru on the way to cyno destination. I won't get into more details, they are lost in the Ideas and Feature forum.
Jotobar	Posted - 2010.04.02 02:39:00 - [3] Originally by: Ephemeron I have proposed a reasonable solution to make the game better in that respect. My idea is to add a new high slot, active module that acts as mobile cyno jammer with 20-30km radius. That way people could still do hot drops, just not right on top of people who invest some protection. I was about to troll the thread and banter with stuff like "oh if only somewhere in space you where able to do these kind of things" but your suggestion makes sense. Make it 25 and only equipable on hic's and I'm completly convinced.
King Rothgar Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.04.02 03:16:00 - [4] I support a HIC based cyno jammer limited to 30km or less. I do some hot dropping and get hot dropped some; there should be a way to counter it with some fore thought in low/null sec without the use of a system wide cyno jammer. And it doesn't kill the hot drop even if you have such a HIC there, they could cyno in 40km away and still remote rep their buddies. Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig.
Aerilis Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.04.02 05:45:00 - [5] I always had the mental image of jumping in through a cyno the way the Protoss warp in carriers in Starcraft a.k.a. it should take quite a while, with a cool graphic of a cyno field slowly blooming, ripping through the very fabric of space time... ------------------------------ [WTS] Dominix Navy Issues - 500M
Jamie Banks Gallente Wasted and Still Mining	Posted - 2010.04.02 06:02:00 - [6] I agree Low-sec is getting quite out of control with 'Surely they will have a cyno on that ship?' in the back of your mind. Currently with no in-game mechanics that favour the dropee. My advice is use it to your advantage, kite any potential cyno boats so they can't lock you down for incoming caps, and hot-drop them back. This is by far the most effective way of stopping people hot-dropping every Tom, ** and Harry who happens to be passing through low-sec. Obviously, not everyone has a dozen cap ships to deploy at a drop of a hat, but going out and searching for a hot-drop could prove to be very frutitful, also the chances of getting your hot-drop, hot-dropped are quite low, because people wouldn't expect be expecting it. This increasingly works to your advantage, if you are in a corp/alliance which isn't known for it's ability to field capitals. Join in-game Channel 'Aussies'**
KushHaze Minmatar Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.04.02 07:13:00 - [7] Edited by: KushHaze on 02/04/2010 07:13:45 I to was about to dismiss this thread also, but hey the cyno jammer isnt a bad idea so kudos to you sir. Makes sense for low sec since you cant deploy static cyno jammers, but I dont know that CCP would endorse this as it really only applys to low sec.
K'racker Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.04.02 07:14:00 - [8] Originally by: Hazel Starr ..The issue that has developed over the past six months is that of the hot-drop. This allows a prepared fleet of carriers, dreads and motherships to turn up on grid with essentially no warning or preventative measure for the defense. This almost invariably overpowers that defense, causing them to flee the field, grateful to have saved their ships... This would go a long way to sorting out what for low-sec is a very real problem, -- Haze hot dropping has been around lots longer than 6 months.. only problem i see is it gives advantage to those who have more isk, that can field a cap fleet. buying your way to victory is not a good game mechanic. you fail to think thru your proposed solutions, however. instead only suggesting ways that will improve your own game play, forgetting that there's other players who like the way things are, and who have substantial investments of training and isk in a tactic that is many years old. you've proposed: a) there should be a 10-sec warning on grid of a cyno field going up. how will this work on covops cyno ships? will they become visible and attackable for the 10 seconds, before they can open the cyno? and would this do anything to help what you consider a problem, except allow you to almost certainly escape? i'm pretty sure you warp out as soon as a cyno goes up, are you saying you'd stick around if there was a 10 second delay? b) there should be a defensive ship module that can jam the opponents cyno field (on-grid) with the effect of delaying the opening of the cyno field. neutral cyno jammers.. npc corp cyno jammers.. multiple cloaked neutral npc corp cyno jammers.. (ofc with a 10 second warning to get withing 40 km, or however far you'd like the jamming effect to work, of the now-visible cyno ship) c) the cyno field should be a valid target for defensive fire so if it was attackable, after a 10 second warning, then you'd stay and see what comes thru? how many hp's do you suggest; surely it's something that you could destroy with your average size fleet. which means a larger fleet could pop them pretty much instantly. again, you look for game changes that enhance only your own style, without thinking of others. d) If the cyno ship or field is destroyed, the incoming ships should take some penalty...loss of fuel, remaining at start location, disabling of cyno capability until repair, scattering to remote systems etc. there already is a penalty; if the cyno is destroyed, whatever's on the other side doesn't make it through, leaving the ships that have jumped without their entire fleet. when you suggest game changes, think about the other folks who play, those that like the way things are, or * those that have adapted and use the game mechanics to their advantage *
KushHaze Minmatar Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.04.02 07:29:00 - [9] I was also thinking of another idea, but I don't know for sure if it would work. What if cyno fields came from a probe and not the ships itself, for instance you could load cyno probes in a interdictor i.e. saber or anything that can mount a probe launcher. Interdictors could come flying in and drop a few cyno's with a balanced hp so that decent sized fleets could pop them, but they would need to be on thier toes in order to do so. It would require some skill in order to hot drop and it would bring another use to interdictors in large fleet fights.
Chocratess	Posted - 2010.04.02 09:10:00 - [10] I like the idea of a mobile short range cyno jammer, but your reasons are flawed. If your tactics arent working against this, change your tactics, dont come complaining about game imbalance and what not. Touch not the Cat bot a Glove

Hidden Snake Caldari Inglorious-Basterds	Posted - 2010.04.02 09:35:00 - [11] I am not cyno expert .... but how about just limiting number of ships comming through one cyno .... like 10 ... so you can count based on number of cynos. hot drops are part of the game. no matter how they suck in low sec and yes it is rich boys wild card. "There is no honor in war, so do not seek it here"
Koshs SC	Posted - 2010.04.02 13:29:00 - [12] Originally by: Hidden Snake I am not cyno expert .... but how about just limiting number of ships comming through one cyno .... like 10 ... so you can count based on number of cynos. hot drops are part of the game. no matter how they suck in low sec and yes it is rich boys wild card. what when you have 250 ships to jump trough? having to light 25 cyno to jump your fleet is ******ed lowsec isn't the only place where cynos are used. if you don't want to get hotdropped, don't fight known hotdroppers, or fly stuff that can get away if they do get dropped. people have always done it, no reason to change it
King Gore Gore Squad	Posted - 2010.04.02 13:57:00 - [13] Originally by: Koshs SC Originally by: Hidden Snake I am not cyno expert .... but how about just limiting number of ships comming through one cyno .... like 10 ... so you can count based on number of cynos. hot drops are part of the game. no matter how they suck in low sec and yes it is rich boys wild card. what when you have 250 ships to jump trough? having to light 25 cyno to jump your fleet is ****ed lowsec isn't the only place where cynos are used. if you don't want to get hotdropped, don't fight known hotdroppers, or fly stuff that can get away if they do get dropped. people have always done it, no reason to change it This. I'd like to add, hot drop them. - Come one come all to my Carnaval of Carnage**, where I'll slice and dice and peel off your skin like an orange.
Fat Uncle	Posted - 2010.04.02 14:48:00 - [14] You can always go play empire wars with privateer. Fact is that most campers use scouts to avoid combat unless they outnumber the opponent by 2 to 1 or better. So the only way to get a fight is to use a small gang supported by a triage carrier or titan bridge. If you get hotdropped too often, there is always more parties that might be interested in doing a counter hotdrop.
Shepard Book Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.04.02 15:07:00 - [15] You should welcome it and be ready to kill a capital or aligned just in tackle range. The majority of your fleet should be able to get away from a hot drop in low sec without bubbles. I doubt you will hear 0.0 people crying for this at all. The only problem is your tactics.
Inepsa1987 Gallente Crimson Star Empire Symbiogenesis	Posted - 2010.04.02 15:46:00 - [16] There should be a script to load into heavy dictors to have a chance of jamming a cyno. Kinda like ECM. Your Cyno would have base strength and go up with your skills. And the same with the dictor script. But to be honest to be able to jam a cyno, you should have to be stationary and burn fuel just like a cyno ship does. If it takes an outside source of power to light a cyno, you need a lot to jam it back up. I dont think their should be a warning for cyno's, I think it showing up on your overview is more than enough.
Cameron Freerunner	Posted - 2010.04.02 16:10:00 - [17] So you want a fairly cheap module to disrupt a tactic that takes an incredible amount of effort to put into effect: * the supply chain for jump fuel goes all the way down to the level of ice mining and the logistics necessary to gather and move it to fleet and stash points are staggering in scope * the skills training necessary to fly the ships that can mount cynos/portals and then the skills necessary to open covert cynos, covert jump portals, regular cynos, and regular jump portals are in the range of 1 year of skill training (less for the cyno ships, but they're useless without a portal ship) * the resources necessary to build or buy and then deploy those ships goes well over 10 to 20 billion, depending on fleet composition and fittings * the resources, training, and RL skills necessary to build up a good fleet, get it working like a well-oiled machine, and then retain the pilots you worked so hard to train takes a lot of time, in some cases years for the best hot drop fleets * the time spent and the number of scouts, force recons, and probers necessary to cover a vast number of systems for the purpose of finding and stalking targets is substantial. I know I've sat waiting for hours while our FC stalked targets. You make it sound like its the easiest thing in the world and it should be nerfed because a 5 man roaming gang is at a disadvantage. Of course its at a disadvantage, its contending with a force that took many billions, many months, many people, and a lot of work to put together. Thats the reward for hard work--a very powerful weapon.
foksieloy Minmatar Universal Army Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.04.02 16:47:00 - [18] Originally by: Cameron Freerunner stuff Finally a breath of sanity here. _______________________ We come for our people!
Wo nko	Posted - 2010.04.02 18:04:00 - [19] Spotted, collected, retrieved. (tears)
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang High Treason Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.02 18:29:00 - [20] That module could be soemthing a BLACK ops use. That would give black ops an usage, and would ensure it to not be cheap.

Cameron Freerunner	Posted - 2010.04.02 18:46:00 - [21] A couple of quick follow-up points: * there is a natural limit to the number of ships that can be jumped through: available fuel in the hold, cycle time, and the destruction of the cyno * by definition, the covert ops cyno/portal are designed for the purpose of circumventing system-wide cyno jamming. In other words, they aren't supposed to be jammed. * by way of analogy, what you are suggesting (10 sec warning) is that the SEALs, Green Berets, etc sound an airhorn and flash lights before they parachute into the landing zone. What purpose would cynos serve if everyone ran away immediately or, even better in your scenario, launched bombs into the drop zone? * if a cyno pilot gets popped, the cyno immediately drops. Not only do pilots get stuck in the origin system, but pilots who have left the origin system but not arrived at the cyno will be dropped at random points all over the system. A portion of them will be dropped inside planets/moons/the sun and will ejected at incredible speeds, which takes forever to slow down and align to the original drop zone. If you don't want to get hot dropped, I have a few pieces of advice. Never engage a solo recon unless you're prepared for a hot drop. Open your map and dotlan and look at the systems in your region for clusters of kills. Go to the same system on dotlan and scour the killmails for SBs, carriers, etc.. By going through the killmails, you should also now have identified the cyno characters--avoid them. Also check your map for cyno fields. If they are using capitals, it shouldn't be hard to figure out their origin system and thus their strike range.
King Rothgar Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.04.02 19:59:00 - [22] These are fair points and yeah, actually setting up a proper hotdrop isn't a quick or easy thing. You need a few subcapital non-cynoing heavy tacklers to grab ****, you need the cyno bait ship, you need the carriers and lastly you need something actually worth hotdropping. But, a very limited mobile cyno jammer on a HIC is a good idea. I am opposed to the 10 second warning and of course the cyno jammer should not impact covert cyno's. But a 30km jam range vs normal cyno's is fair. As I said previously, it doesn't prevent hotdrops, it just forces them to cyno in at a little more range. Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig.
Saphyire	Posted - 2010.04.03 08:21:00 - [23] It stands to reason that any tactic, no matter how expensive or well-organized, should have some sort of counter available in the gameplay aspect. Just because you spent all of that time and energy setting up a hotdrop shouldn't mean you get cruise control to win, and currently it does. If these roaming gangs have enough sense to equip a HIC with a module that would shortrange jam or redirect a cyno, then great - perhaps it shouldn't jam, maybe a 30km bubble range and when a cyno is lit inside of the bubble, all ships appear on the edge of the bubble instead of inside. Perhaps as earlier suggested it could work on the ECM-type mechanic, whatever. There are many ways this could be implemented. You accuse people of only catering to their gameplay and not keeping others play in mind, yet you spout the same garbage right back at them. Invincible fleet of hotdrop cyno shouldn't have any counter except another, larger hotdrop... does this really seem like a good system to you? When lowsec is already the empty wasteland of EVE? I would call that shortsighted and a bit hypocritical. Pew Pew.
Swatyy Amarr Evolving Paradigms	Posted - 2010.04.03 11:09:00 - [24] Originally by: Hazel Starr The effect of this from a game point of view is a growing reluctance to engage significantly in low-sec because of the potential arrival via cyno of a gank-gang of caps. Since EVE combat depends to a large extent on numbers, low-sec is currently dominated by those corps/alliances which can throw the most capitals onto the field. Be the first gang to drop a cyno. Maybe you have caps ready to come through. Maybe you don't. The point is you can change the mathematics of war simply by putting one down. The mechanics allow a weak force to appear strong, to offer the appearance of overwhelming power. Find ways to use it; complaining makes my head hurt.
eliminator2 Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.03 12:14:00 - [25] agreed that low-sec is to hotdroppy and that caps online has allready started but the module to me needs more longer range than 30km its way to easy to get a ship 30km away with a cyno and drop it ----------------------------------------------- I met Eliminator1..... I chewed it up, and spat it out. Now, he is my minion. I kill miners and mission runners people say, I call them target pra
Grut The Protei	Posted - 2010.04.03 13:15:00 - [26] Originally by: Swatyy Be the first gang to drop a cyno. Maybe you have caps ready to come through. Maybe you don't. The point is you can change the mathematics of war simply by putting one down. The mechanics allow a weak force to appear strong, to offer the appearance of overwhelming power. Find ways to use it; complaining makes my head hurt. I call bs .. the counter to hotdropping is to bring enough guys that you can gank your target before help arrives ... Yay thats great for gameplay. Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know... Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought
Chocratess	Posted - 2010.04.03 18:23:00 - [27] There should be a counter that isnt just do the same thing, only bigger. That being said, there were some good points about the logistics of getting a hotdrop together. The counter cant be a simple module (or script) that will completely negate the cyno. It would probably have to be chance based, or have limited range, and require a lot of skills (cyno 5 on top of propulsion jamming 5 for instance because you need to know how they work to jam them ). And also covert cyno's shouldnt be able to be jammed because if a static system jammer cant jam them, what hope does a single ship have. I'm curious, if you light a cyno inside a dictor bubble do you come out at the edge or at the cyno? Like was said above that would be a good compromise, although i dont really know what 30km's will give you when a fleet gets dropped on you Touch not the Cat bot a Glove
Cameron Freerunner	Posted - 2010.04.05 15:08:00 - [28] Originally by: Chocratess I'm curious, if you light a cyno inside a dictor bubble do you come out at the edge or at the cyno? Like was said above that would be a good compromise, although i dont really know what 30km's will give you when a fleet gets dropped on you The cyno field works normally and its field determines where the ships will jump through. Depending on where in the bubble the cyno is, some of the ships will come in inside the bubble, some outside. Excellent question; what good would 30k do? It seems clear the basic idea is to keep a cap ship from dropping directly on your head with smartbombs. But thats all a hot dropped cap can do really. They can't lock you in a reasonable amount of time, so unless you happen to be within range of the smartbombs when they appear I don't know why you would need such a module. Clearly, if you don't bunch up your ships into a 20km sphere, the hot drop isn't going to do much damage. There is a much easier counter to the hot drop. Run. What are you hanging around for? Hoping for a carrier kill?
Koshs SC	Posted - 2010.04.05 16:34:00 - [29] Originally by: Chocratess There should be a counter that isnt just do the same thing, only bigger. the counter is to go smaller... every tried to hotdrop a hac gang? gl catching any of them then drag the fight away from the carriers (50+km away or on the other side of the gate) and keep fighting cynos are fine the way they are, no need for ridiculous mods... just use your brains
Ms Michigan	Posted - 2010.04.05 17:19:00 - [30] This is a great discussion and agreed- everything needs its balance. This thread should be move to the town hall CSM suggestion forum.

Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.05 19:52:00 - [31] The bottom line is that hot drops are a big random factor in game - when looked at from global perspective. Even the people who perform the hot drop and spend time organizing and planning - they still face a random factor that they will get counter dropped. Randomness is enemy of planning and strategy making. I'll address some key opposition points: Quote: * the supply chain for jump fuel goes all the way down to the level of ice mining and the logistics necessary to gather and move it to fleet and stash points are staggering in scope * the skills training necessary to fly the ships that can mount cynos/portals and then the skills necessary to open covert cynos, covert jump portals, regular cynos, and regular jump portals are in the range of 1 year of skill training (less for the cyno ships, but they're useless without a portal ship) * the resources necessary to build or buy and then deploy those ships goes well over 10 to 20 billion, depending on fleet composition and fittings * the resources, training, and RL skills necessary to build up a good fleet, get it working like a well-oiled machine, and then retain the pilots you worked so hard to train takes a lot of time, in some cases years for the best hot drop fleets It should be emphasized that we aren't talking about removing cyno hot dropping from game. Nor are we discussing any major changes to all the things listed above. So far the suggested things are: force hot drop 30km away from certain protected ships. Force a minor delay between cyno lit and drop. For a major operation, the kind that has actually been carefully planned and well prepared for, these set backs aren't going to be significant. Quote: * the time spent and the number of scouts, force recons, and probers necessary to cover a vast number of systems for the purpose of finding and stalking targets is substantial. I know I've sat waiting for hours while our FC stalked targets. You make it sound like its the easiest thing in the world and it should be nerfed because a 5 man roaming gang is at a disadvantage. Of course its at a disadvantage, its contending with a force that took many billions, many months, many people, and a lot of work to put together. Thats the reward for hard work--a very powerful weapon. It's important to understand that not all hot drops are equal. What he describes there is an "elite" operation. From personal experience, I hardly ever see that kind of planning and scouting - mostly because I don't observe large fleet fights but focus entirely on small gangs. And in small gangs, people often do hot drops with almost no preparation, 1-3 minute of decision making and moving a tackler with cyno. Often times the drop is just 1-2 carriers, hardly a big investment, yet overwhelming to 1-2 battleship/HAC pilots. Indeed, hot dropping wouldn't be that much of an issue if it was done by the standards I quoted. It has become a problem because people don't treat it as a big thing anymore. They don't care for planning, for investment, they just drop anything with minimum of effort or risk, sometimes they don't even care for a loss of a carrier, it just doesn't mean much at all anymore. In conclusion, we should provide very limited counter measures to hot dropping and to add intelligence gathering tools with some ways to scout the hot drop fleet.
Twg Memitim The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.05 20:33:00 - [32] What if you set it up so that when you get hotdropped, you drop your own cyno 100km away or so and bring in some sniper dreads to ruin there day. I bet they will stop dropping carriers on you when they keep loosing them. ----- Remember it's just a game, have fun!
Cameron Freerunner	Posted - 2010.04.05 20:54:00 - [33] To me the issue sounds like it boils down to how close ships are to the bait cyno ship. If the hot dropped carrier doesn't drop directly on top of you with smartbombs, it's basically a wasted drop. So why is an entire gang clustered in a 20km sphere? If you aren't clustered up, then all of your ships aren't getting popped by the smartbombs and you shouldn't lose more than a tackler or two. So, why aren't these small gangs doing more to address their tactical movement? Spread out. Keep moving. Stay aligned to something. Get a ship scanner and check out the target before engaging. This is a tactical movement issue, not a game mechanic issue. Is there something other than smartbombs on the initial drop that is posing a problem? Perhaps I misunderstood or misread.
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.05 21:34:00 - [34] Quote: Spread out. Keep moving. Stay aligned to something. Get a ship scanner and check out the target before engaging. This is a tactical movement issue, not a game mechanic issue. I fly in 2 ships gang, and I get hot dropped almost every day when I focus entirely on roaming PvP. How am I supposed to "spread out"? Get a ship scanner before engaging? why don't you try small gang roaming PvP and see how many ships you manage to scan before they kill you or escape. Small gang roaming pvp suffers the most from this tactic
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE	Posted - 2010.04.05 23:17:00 - [35] Man, I thought I was playing a different game from Capit.. oh wait. Crybaby Online. HTFU *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Bomberlocks Minmatar Star Bombers	Posted - 2010.04.06 00:56:00 - [36] As usual, both sides in this discussion have a point and both sides are, again, as usual, totally unable to recognize that the other side has a point. Asking for Mobile Cyno jammers, 10 second delays (and other training wheels) on the one side, and HTFU comments on the other are about as likely to solve this discussion as the Arabs and the Jews are likely to find peace in the Middle East, i.e. never. The problem is not hot dropping per se. The problem is smaller corps in losec and nubs being totally outclassed and steamrolled by corps and alliances with cash and vets in their team. In other words it's the same old s h i t as 0.0 where the bigger the corp/alliance the bigger its gravitational effect squeezing out the smaller players until its just blob vs blob again with all the attendant lag/crashes and other CCP incompetencies and excuses flying thick and heavy though the air. Normally the fact that socially inept gamers are incapable of sticking together for any length of time without fighting amongst hemselves ensures that the member lists of such corps often cycles enough to shift the balance of power to the other side and then back again(vis. CVA vs UK, BoB/IT vs Goons/NC and more recently Amarr vs Minnie militia hot dropping on one another and Bane etc). In other words its working as intended. CCP gets to suck your cash while you spend countless hours doing pointless and boring crap and doing a lot of back slapping on what magnificent, intelligent and enlightened people you are. Just like me ;-)
debbie harrio	Posted - 2010.04.06 09:33:00 - [37] working as intended, kill the cyno ship asap, quite easy to do this, melt it within a second or 2 and you will only get a fraction of the jumpers landing, putting the dropees at great risk, if you can't melt a bait drake cyno ship within 3 secs start recruiting, you are playing in the sandbox remember.
Marlona Sky D00M. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2010.04.06 09:54:00 - [38] I came up with this idea. No one roams anymore, they simply form a gang and wait, for the hot drop to be authorized. The idea needs work but and it of course affects more than hot dropping but please leave comments or suggests or even pull some ideas from it if you like.
GavinGoodrich Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2010.04.06 18:54:00 - [39] +1 for the cyno jammer field. Short range...very nice idea. I'm a fan of Hotdropping and baiting hotdrops...being on the recieving end of that most of the time...I'd like to have some sort of counter available...especially for the militia folk. \o
Guillame Herschel Gallente NME1	Posted - 2010.04.06 19:27:00 - [40] Originally by: Cameron Freerunner * the supply chain for jump fuel goes all the way down to the level of ice mining and the logistics necessary to gather and move it to fleet and stash points are staggering in scope In low sec? Please. Quote: * the skills training necessary to fly the ships that can mount cynos/portals and then the skills necessary to open covert cynos, covert jump portals, regular cynos, and regular jump portals are in the range of 1 year of skill training (less for the cyno ships, but they're useless without a portal ship) So higher SP should win? Is that your argument? Lame. Quote: * the resources necessary to build or buy and then deploy those ships goes well over 10 to 20 billion, depending on fleet composition and fittings So who spends the most isk should win? Is that your argument? Lame. Quote: * the resources, training, and RL skills necessary to build up a good fleet, get it working like a well-oiled machine, and then retain the pilots you worked so hard to train takes a lot of time, in some cases years for the best hot drop fleets FC: "Now, warp to Titan at POS, right click on his ship, and select Jump. Primary on the other side is..." Real hard. I was sweating just typing that out. Quote: * the time spent and the number of scouts, force recons, and probers necessary to cover a vast number of systems for the purpose of finding and stalking targets is substantial. I know I've sat waiting for hours while our FC stalked targets. In low sec? Please. -- Nah, that's just my Asperger's kickin' in.

Widemouth Deepthroat	Posted - 2010.04.06 19:37:00 - [41] Hotdrop is all good imo...it is just the same as if local removed...you don't know wtf is going on.
Cameron Freerunner	Posted - 2010.04.07 02:44:00 - [42] Originally by: Guillame Herschel criticism without contribution Yes, more money, skill training time, and resources should be a factor. He who works hardest and amasses the most resources fields the best, most powerful fleet. That is the entire point of of this game. Grab or protect resources while building a fleet, an industrial infrastructure, and a corp membership. In so doing, overpower and outmanuever your opponents, limiting their ability to field a fleet, engage in economic activity and gather resources. There are plenty of ways to deal with hot drops. A cheap, one-click countermeasure shouldn't be one of them.
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.07 04:43:00 - [43] Originally by: Cameron Freerunner Yes, more money, skill training time, and resources should be a factor. He who works hardest and amasses the most resources fields the best, most powerful fleet. That is the entire point of of this game. Grab or protect resources while building a fleet, an industrial infrastructure, and a corp membership. In so doing, overpower and outmanuever your opponents, limiting their ability to field a fleet, engage in economic activity and gather resources. There are plenty of ways to deal with hot drops. A cheap, one-click countermeasure shouldn't be one of them. I tend to agree with your 1st statement, but I don't think your 2nd statement is valid for the proposed ideas. A very limited range cyno jammer and a 10 second delay on jumping is hardly an overpowering solution. It by no means negates all the usefulness of hot dropping. It just makes it a little less of "a cheap, one-click countermeasure" to hostile gang. After all, you wouldn't defend getting rid of warp delay between objects in system so it could be just as instantaneous as cyno jumping? neither would you defend getting rid of warp bubbles and HICs to counter enemy escapes. These are all reasonable things, nothing overly exaggerated.
AterraX Caldari	Posted - 2010.04.07 07:28:00 - [44] Originally by: Ephemeron I have similar thoughts about the issue. Hot dropping game mechanic is too hard to scout and it introduces too much randomness into battlefield, and randomness destroys clever strategy planning. You must really suck at wargames. No plan survives the first encounter with the enemy. You need to plan for more than 1 senario and have planned what you do when the plan fails. I bet Alexander, Napoleon, Rommel ect is rolling in their graves about your "notions" about "clever strategy planning". Hit: Combat is tactics...you know stuff like tanks, men, bobms. Strategy is stuff like supplylines, food, fuel ect. You not only fail at tactics/strategy...quit whining and grow a pair. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character...
Motseth	Posted - 2010.04.07 15:13:00 - [45] Originally by: Saphyire It stands to reason that any tactic, no matter how expensive or well-organized, should have some sort of counter available in the gameplay aspect. Just because you spent all of that time and energy setting up a hotdrop shouldn't mean you get cruise control to win, and currently it does. If these roaming gangs have enough sense to equip a HIC with a module that would shortrange jam or redirect a cyno, then great - perhaps it shouldn't jam, maybe a 30km bubble range and when a cyno is lit inside of the bubble, all ships appear on the edge of the bubble instead of inside. Perhaps as earlier suggested it could work on the ECM-type mechanic, whatever. There are many ways this could be implemented. You accuse people of only catering to their gameplay and not keeping others play in mind, yet you spout the same garbage right back at them. Invincible fleet of hotdrop cyno shouldn't have any counter except another, larger hotdrop... does this really seem like a good system to you? When lowsec is already the empty wasteland of EVE? I would call that shortsighted and a bit hypocritical. I bow to this reply, your words are wise. Indeed cyno should have more limitations (among many other things), win buttons, no matter how much work you had to get them are not good for the game.
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.07 18:26:00 - [46] Quote: I bet Alexander, Napoleon, Rommel ect is rolling in their graves about your "notions" about "clever strategy planning". I'm pretty sure that if they faced a threat of a 'wizard' that could open a portal and move a huge army from far away land instantly - they would be pretty horrified. I really don't think you make a good point with that one.
Arrador	Posted - 2010.04.07 18:58:00 - [47] Originally by: Ephemeron Quote: I bet Alexander, Napoleon, Rommel ect is rolling in their graves about your "notions" about "clever strategy planning". I'm pretty sure that if they faced a threat of a 'wizard' that could open a portal and move a huge army from far away land instantly - they would be pretty horrified. I really don't think you make a good point with that one. I'm pretty sure they would either have killed the wizard, or figured out how to duplicate the wizard's abilities.
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.07 20:51:00 - [48] Quote: I'm pretty sure they would either have killed the wizard, or figured out how to duplicate the wizard's abilities. Either way, I don't think either Alexander, Napoleon, Rommel ect cared much for the concept of "balance" between opposing units and factions. Of course, each player may be similar to them in their strive to succeed by any means possible. But what we are discussing here are the rules that define in the scope of possible action. We essentially play god, deciding whether the world would be better off with wizards that open portals or not. In the end, the goal is to make an entertaining game. I believe the current hot dropping mechanic is detrimental to that, due to lack of effective scouting and counters. However, I would be willing to accept logic of your side if you also agree to support complete reverse of the Great Nano Nerf. The reasoning behind that nerf was the same thing we argue about now. Some people invested time and money, prepared strategies that worked, yet CCP ripped it from the game with iron pliers. Can game designers be more consistent than politicians?
K'racker Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.04.07 23:57:00 - [49] Originally by: AterraX Originally by: Ephemeron I have similar thoughts about the issue. Hot dropping game mechanic is too hard to scout and it introduces too much randomness into battlefield, and randomness destroys clever strategy planning. You must really suck at wargames. No plan survives the first encounter with the enemy. You need to plan for more than 1 senario and have planned what you do when the plan fails. I bet Alexander, Napoleon, Rommel ect is rolling in their graves about your "notions" about "clever strategy planning". Hit: Combat is tactics...you know stuff like tanks, men, bobms. Strategy is stuff like supplylines, food, fuel ect. You not only fail at tactics/strategy...quit whining and grow a pair. he's a solo 0.0 roamer, hunting in alliance's own backyards. think his testicular fortitude is beyond reproach. this also makes him the poster child for -not- changing hot drops, at least in null-sec. delays or changes in cyno are only going to increase the chance to gtfo, when that single ratter turns out to be bait, with a point and cyno fitted. asking for the ability to similtaneously scout every system within jump range, as an alternative to cyno changes, is unrealistic. much respect to you, ephemeron, but your motivation and suggestions in the name of 'preserving clever strategy' is no more noble than the op's; making your own playstyle safer.
Motseth	Posted - 2010.04.08 00:21:00 - [50] Originally by: Ephemeron Quote: I bet Alexander, Napoleon, Rommel ect is rolling in their graves about your "notions" about "clever strategy planning". I'm pretty sure that if they faced a threat of a 'wizard' that could open a portal and move a huge army from far away land instantly - they would be pretty horrified. I really don't think you make a good point with that one. /o\ OMG we have been playing WOW vs2.0 in disguise all this time! I hate fantasy games how can I play EVE again! Who wants all my stuff? (preemptive strike on probable incoming "Can I has your stuff?") Now seriously, embrace change, dont you love when a new patch is coming and new things going to be introduced and then (the game dont run well, lots of bugs, lots of sockets closed, lots of server crashs, etc...) the changes dont really affect you and you continue to play EVE like nothing changed? My point is just the "new things incoming, change incoming" notion is great, the need to adapt. I think most players if not all play this game to challenge themselves and have fun in the process! So my final point is, dont we all agree that cynos (like a lot of stuff) need to be changed for a better game consistency, win buttons are not good, instant win buttons are horrible, that is what a cyno is (usually), a instant win button, and dont say nonsense about like "my corp build itself to make cynos and gank people so please dont change cynos because then we would fail because we are morons and cant adapt". And a change dont need to be to big (and change completely the role of cynos ingame) or to small (change nothing in practice). Why cant we instead of complaining about what someone said (like I did probably many times) try to get our focus on solutions for a better game experience of all players, we are the ones playing it, we know the game, we can agree and disagree but we could make it with a constructive purpose, Im sure CCP would listen to us with more attention.

Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.08 04:30:00 - [51] The funny part is that I tried to to push a moderate proposal, even tho I'd personally favor something stronger. But in the end, exaggerated point shouting drowns any voice of reason. After participating in many such debates, I'm beginning to understand the difficulties politicians face when they try to push any reform - they simply get trolled. I push my ideas mostly because I have a keen interest in game design, and I at least put the good of the game before personal interest. Of course my definition of good game is different, but it's the thought that counts.
Zoe Midoru Selectus Pravus Lupus	Posted - 2010.04.08 06:14:00 - [52] Originally by: Bomberlocks The problem is not hot dropping per se. The problem is smaller corps in losec and nubs being totally outclassed and steamrolled by corps and alliances with cash and vets in their team. In other words it's the same old s h i t as 0.0 where the bigger the corp/alliance the bigger its gravitational effect squeezing out the smaller players until its just blob vs blob again with all the attendant lag/crashes and other CCP incompetencies and excuses flying thick and heavy though the air. Quoted for being the most important thing said in this entire thread. The vicissitudes of hotdrops suppressing PvP in lowsec et al are part of the symptoms, not part of the causes.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.04.08 07:20:00 - [53] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 08/04/2010 07:21:14 Quote: FC: "Now, warp to Titan at POS, right click on his ship, and select Jump. Primary on the other side is..." Real hard. I was sweating just typing that out. Where do they fire sale "Titan at POS" kits? I want to buy 3 at the price of 2 or something. Quote: Quoted for being the most important thing said in this entire thread. The vicissitudes of hotdrops suppressing PvP in lowsec et al are part of the symptoms, not part of the causes It's important indeed and yet it is tainted. Even if lag was completely removed, blobs would happen. Even with the proposed anti-cyno, blobs would happen. The basic flaw is that in EvE there's no "in system" tactical terrain control. You can camp a region entrance and pull some station games but that's it. This creates the so called Mexican Standoff, creates the need of photocopy RR buffer tanks and basically results in Muscle vs Muscle. It's just the Human Way of figthing when everything else is levelled and same: biggest blob wins, EvE or not. Just look at the one "terrain control" that is implemented: gated FW small plexes. Immediately it becomes feasible to use destroyers, FW plex "gate games" become possible. The very inside can be "secured" and controlled with the help of a simple can. I mean, even with EvE's poor control of players over the environment a number of options come up and pure numbers become "just" a factor, not THE factor. So, while an anti-cyno ship could provide for a bandage, after many a "industrial expansion", "exploration expansion" etc. EvE needs a "tactician expansion". Maybe with timer-expiring "blocks" to make space barricades, traps and "hills" or who knows what. Just recall how often in say Star Trek, fights are made with the help of "strange properties" nebulas (hint: wormholes already implement exotic effects, adapting them would be easy: imagine the usual copy pasted RR armor fleet and the tactical challenges of knowing you might end in an heavy shield boosting "nebula" place). Imagine a system with a black hole or some gravity wells, pulling ships around, maybe affecting capitals in a way that it's easy to have them pulled away off support so a less capital heavy fleet could have its advantages... - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Tanaka Reina	Posted - 2010.04.08 07:42:00 - [54] im in no way knowledgeable about the case, but after reading some of the stuff here, got some ideas: 1. Cyno dropper ship should be easier to recognize, new ship class? and only that class could drop it? might make destroying it too easy tough 2. jammer should be chance based like ecm and need a fair amount of skill to use too. 3. cyno jump, meaby your jump wouldnt be so accurate? meaby you would end up at a random location in 0-100km range from the cyno drop point. That would solve the smartbomb problem.
AterraX Caldari	Posted - 2010.04.08 11:24:00 - [55] Originally by: Ephemeron I'm pretty sure that if they faced a threat of a 'wizard' that could open a portal and move a huge army from far away land instantly - they would be pretty horrified. Or planned accordingly. Whining about a "superior" enemy never won anything...unlike really clever planning. You whine, instead of planning either countermoves...or setting a trap...either way your whine is fail. Quote: I really don't think you make a good point with that one. Pot...kettle...black. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character...
Cameron Freerunner	Posted - 2010.04.08 13:53:00 - [56] I'm sorry but I still don't understand the problem. There is exactly ONE thing a hot dropping carrier can do that is of any consequence to the ships being dropped on and that is smartbombs. Proposing entire changes to game mechanics because someone got caught trying to gank someone and then got dropped on and destroyed is just silly. You seem to be forgetting that the player getting ganked could make many of the same arguments about game balance and making losec easier on players.
Motseth	Posted - 2010.04.08 16:58:00 - [57] Originally by: Ephemeron The funny part is that I tried to to push a moderate proposal, even tho I'd personally favor something stronger. But in the end, exaggerated point shouting drowns any voice of reason. After participating in many such debates, I'm beginning to understand the difficulties politicians face when they try to push any reform - they simply get trolled. I push my ideas mostly because I have a keen interest in game design, and I at least put the good of the game before personal interest. Of course my definition of good game is different, but it's the thought that counts. Sorry m8, the second and third paragraphs were not directed at you, they were directed to us all, the reason I quoted you in that reply is because I liked your post(s),not the opposite. =)
Siu Supjee	Posted - 2010.04.08 18:46:00 - [58] So funny story. I read this post the other day, and the thought I have is "so like who are these corps/alliances that 'dominate' low sec with all these capital ships?" I have been hanging out in low sec for a while and have not seen more than onsey twosey carriers here and there. I had a few "dropped" on me before, but they were all warps not cynos. So not really a "drop" I suppose. So we're doing an op against a POS literally the evening after I read this post. A guy lights a cyno near us...and out comes 13 carriers and 2 moms. Hilarity ensues (as does our hasty deaths). Now I have never seen a supercapital in real life before so I was too busy taking screen shots to be upset I was dying, but still... So yeah...like ^^ this. I don't think we need any drastic balance changes to the cyno though, and I certainly get the impression it "works" fine in 0.0 (although I confess to a complete lack of direct experience in that area). However what's always bothered me about it is that: - Pretty much any ship can mount one - And you can jump an arbitrarily large fleet through a single cyno lit by a teeny frigate - ...and if you destroy that teeny frigate, his 10 friends also in teeny frigates can keep spamming you until one sticks. I think a simple change might be to require fuel from the cyno ship based on mass (or size or whatever) of ships coming through. If you're jumping through a huge fleet, you need something that can hold lots of fuel, or multiple cyno ships (or both). I am sure there are problems with this proposal, like when you're doing a jump bridge you're now "double taxing" the sender and the receiver, but I would imagine those can be worked out.
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.08 19:19:00 - [59] Originally by: Cameron Freerunner I'm sorry but I still don't understand the problem. There is exactly ONE thing a hot dropping carrier can do that is of any consequence to the ships being dropped on and that is smartbombs. Proposing entire changes to game mechanics because someone got caught trying to gank someone and then got dropped on and destroyed is just silly. You seem to be forgetting that the player getting ganked could make many of the same arguments about game balance and making losec easier on players. Cameron Freerunner, since you seem like an intelligent sort, I'd like to hear your reasoning for opposing a short range cyno jammer. So far all I heard was "hot drops don't deserve any counters because they are expensive and take a lot of time to prepare" and "short range cyno jammer would be a 1 click cheap solution to prevent hot drops" Is there anything else you'd like to add? Assuming that a 25km active cyno jammer does get implemented, what negative gameplay effects do you see? will big alliances suddenly become helpless in the face of marauding small gangs? will large fleet warfare in sieged systems will change dramatically in favor of defenders? Or will he game just become less fun and more frustrating for people with big money just like after the Great Nano Nerf?
Cameron Freerunner	Posted - 2010.04.08 21:43:00 - [60] Edited by: Cameron Freerunner on 08/04/2010 21:44:04 Originally by: Ephemeron Cameron Freerunner, since you seem like an intelligent sort, I'd like to hear your reasoning for opposing a short range cyno jammer. Happily. But my question/point has never been addressed: why do you need a game mechanic change that has exactly one real effect--the hot dropped ship will appear just out of smartbomb range. Really? An entire design process for that? I am by no means an expert on PvP or fleet command. But ALL of my kills (and deaths) were in a stealth bomber hot drop fleet. I have been counter dropped many times. Carriers and even the old DD titan. Every time we got away with very few losses (see recommended actions above: stay aligned, keep moving, maintain range). But one of our biggest losses was against a fleet who used their heads and, without any new/special modules, setup a series of situations that led to our fleet getting decimated on a gate. As much as it hurt, they used beautiful tactics and some really really smart strategy (hats off to Gentleman's Club). They understood the weaknesses of hot dropping and then exploited them ruthlessly. (and YES there are many weaknesses) My opposition is to push-button solutions. Too often players want a new button on their ship's dashboard to solve their tactical and strategic problems. The problem isn't that the ship is dropping on a player; the problem is that the player getting dropped isn't doing anything to address the situation. Intel, reconnaissance, planning, etc is all part of the game. Reducing problem solving to the click of the mouse means this game becomes more like Mortal Kombat and less like Axis/Allies or chess. btw I should make clear that I think dropping carriers on individual ships is ****er-ish.

Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.08 22:58:00 - [61] Quote: why do you need a game mechanic change that has exactly one real effect--the hot dropped ship will appear just out of smartbomb range. Really? An entire design process for that? The goal is that the hot dropped ships should appear outside of scramble range. That means that the bait tackle can not be effective cyno and would need another person with cyno. And the the ships exiting cyno would not be in immediate tackle range of the victim and require at least minimal maneuvering effort. In EVE tackle range is roughly 25 km, not counting overheating and specialized ships. And that range plays key role in the whole design of EVE PvP.
Wrayeth Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2010.04.09 03:05:00 - [62] I'll throw my backing behind the introduction of a HIC module that, when activated, prevents cynosural field activation within 30km. This module should function in both lowsec and nullsec. In regards to covert cynosural fields, I'm on the fence as to whether or not to allow their activation within the cyno disruption field. (They can be activated in cynojammed systems, after all.) I'm leaning towards "yes", but I also have Black Ops 5, so I may be biased. Also, I own a dreadnought and a carrier, so I'm not just posting this as a non-capital pilot who's never hotdropped before. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
K'racker Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.04.09 04:22:00 - [63] this is eve and anything in game will be used in the most innovative ways, many times things the developers do not foresee. not all cynos are 'hot drops'. what if i'm bringing my rorq or JF thru, popping a cyno at a station so the indy ships appear in dock range. onoes there's a cyno 'jammer' on the field. there's hostile (de cloaking in a black ops..bridging sb gang thru..mass log-on of reds..fast hac gang enters system..use your imagination..etc.) crap my xx bill ship and it's xx bill cargo were jumped through 25 km off the station due to the cyno jammer thingy.. ---> boom i'm not putting anyone in this thread down, only trying to show that a simple change can have consequences beyond what was intended, and need to be well thought out, from more than one person's perspective.
Koshs SC	Posted - 2010.04.09 12:13:00 - [64] Originally by: Ephemeron Quote: why do you need a game mechanic change that has exactly one real effect--the hot dropped ship will appear just out of smartbomb range. Really? An entire design process for that? The goal is that the hot dropped ships should appear outside of scramble range. That means that the bait tackle can not be effective cyno and would need another person with cyno. And the the ships exiting cyno would not be in immediate tackle range of the victim and require at least minimal maneuvering effort. In EVE tackle range is roughly 25 km, not counting overheating and specialized ships. And that range plays key role in the whole design of EVE PvP. fit a mwd on your ships, and theres no way a carrier can keep you pointed long enough to kill you.
Cameron Freerunner	Posted - 2010.04.09 14:48:00 - [65] There are other unforeseen consequences. One common problem for hot drops is the bubble. It can be death to stealth bombers and other sub-BS ships if they jump to a cyno that is inside a bubble. They have to immediately start getting out of the bubble before a counter-drop/counter-strike. By putting this new module on a bubble shooter, the cyno can actually take advantage of the displacement and the SBs/fleet will drop OUTSIDE the bubble. Thanks! You just made our job easier. Depending on the fitting limitations of the module (and here we start talking about design issues, because limiting it to one ship type comes with a whole host of balance issues), if a recon pilot can mount a cyno AND a displacer, he guarantees that the fleet jumps in outside of the bubble. What happens when more than one displacer module is activated in close proximity? For example, a cluster of ships all pop the displacer module so that there is slight overlap to the fields. Will that mean that you jump into the system outside the original field? Or will you keep getting bumped further and further out to the edge of all the fields? So now the issue is web/scram? Its still just a variation on a theme. There are plenty of tactical solutions to the problem. There is still no need for game mechanic redesign.
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.09 17:18:00 - [66] Quote: Depending on the fitting limitations of the module (and here we start talking about design issues, because limiting it to one ship type comes with a whole host of balance issues), if a recon pilot can mount a cyno AND a displacer, he guarantees that the fleet jumps in outside of the bubble. What happens when more than one displacer module is activated in close proximity? For example, a cluster of ships all pop the displacer module so that there is slight overlap to the fields. Will that mean that you jump into the system outside the original field? Or will you keep getting bumped further and further out to the edge of all the fields? There seems to be some misunderstanding about how the proposed cyno jammer will work. First, I completely agree that such a module should not be restricted to a specific class ship - just as the cyno generator is unrestricted. Activation of the cyno jammer would block any ship from jumping to the cyno within distance. Even if the cyno was lit before the jammer is activating, a carrier in another system would try to jump but get message like "cyno is jammed, can't perform jump" This module in no way allows ships to jump in 25~ km from the target cyno.
Guillame Herschel Gallente NME1	Posted - 2010.04.09 18:08:00 - [67] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: FC: "Now, warp to Titan at POS, right click on his ship, and select Jump. Primary on the other side is..." Real hard. I was sweating just typing that out. Where do they fire sale "Titan at POS" kits? I want to buy 3 at the price of 2 or something. They seem to be selling them in Syndicate. I was in a gang of bored FW pilots who went to 0.0 on an impromptu roam one day last month. Huzzah Federation hot dropped a fleet on us. I mean, come on. It's drop-dead easy if those guys can do it. All but one of us got away. -- Nah, that's just my Asperger's kickin' in.
Cameron Freerunner	Posted - 2010.04.09 18:24:00 - [68] Originally by: Ephemeron Activation of the cyno jammer would block any ship from jumping to the cyno within distance. Even if the cyno was lit before the jammer is activating, a carrier in another system would try to jump but get message like "cyno is jammed, can't perform jump" That doesn't make it better, that makes it worse. An entire drop fleet thwarted by a frig with a module. That makes my previous comments doubly relevant. The proposed module is completely out of balance when examined in the context of fleet warfare. All to get out of scram/smartie range of a carrier that MIGHT drop on you. This proposal seems to arise out of a sense of self defense, but the offensive uses to which it could be put would put an end to cyno's in fleet warfare. Imagine an entire fleet of ships fitted with those modules. Now throw them into a fleet fight vs a fleet that uses titans/moms/carriers. See the problem? If the real issue, as one poster proposed, is that players feel like there should be somewhere, like losec, to fight without cyno bait ships, why not simply propose that losec get the hisec 'no cynos' treatment and be done with it. But then you're going to get resistance from all the JF pilots who have to route through losec to get where they are going. The losec players don't seem to be examining how this module would affect things in nosec. I'm by no means putting down small gang warfare, but it is very, very different from full scale fleet warfare. To me, it seems like a lot of players feel like they should be able to engage random ships they know nothing about without consequence. Your first stop should be battleclinic to find out if the bait pilot is associated with carrier kills. While you're there, you should go system by system (the ones you work over anyway) and look at all the recent kills. If you see carrier activity, you need to engage with caution or move on to other hunting grounds. I don't know what else to say about this. There are so many ways to handle it, you could write an entire manual on it. Anyway, its been a fun discussion. Its great to see people conversing instead of trolling/insulting. Fly safe! Or dangerously. Whatever trips your trigger.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.04.09 19:08:00 - [69] It is a pretty good idea provided the required module can not be fitted on any old hull. Make it sufficiently hard to fit and perhaps add a range/fuel/fitting bonus to one hull or another (T3 frigate sub-system perhaps?). Would primarily "protect" against the limited hot-drop, the crap seen on gates/stations perpetrated by bored capital pilots and their alts and the more and more common Titan bridge from low-sec POS onto cruiser gangs sigh I do not really see the large cyno-ins, the ones requiring all that time and ice and what not, as really being affected much at all except for the ones that insist on dropping out 5m from a target. If the ship fielding the module could be easily identified it might be something for a small strike team to do prior to a mass-jump (assassinations are always fun ) Here's an idea to make it a game of tag: - Anti-Cyno has similar effect as cyno, ship immobilized for the duration .. or maybe slowed to a crawl. Maybe even disallow RR in a similar way as is done with HICs. - Cyno can not be popped within field - goes without saying. - If field is deployed on top of an existing cyno the cyno instantly cycles off allowing cyno ship to reposition (anti-cyno "stuck" as above, but initial drop averted). Another potential balancing point; dependent on what fitting reqs are used, make cynos popped by the dedicated ships (ie. Combat Recons) immune to counter. Note: Would automatically exempt covert cynos since they can only be fitted on specific ships. Addendum: Personally still more in favour of making the fuel cost for any jump into low-sec stupidly high (except for J.Freighters/Coverts) to limit the impact of 0.0 fail-trains on low-sec life Good idea if done right and restricted enough so as to not adversely (at least minimize) affect the much loved capital slug-fests.
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.09 19:14:00 - [70] Edited by: Ephemeron on 09/04/2010 19:15:49 Well, I am concerned about the mobility of the cyno jammer. When people open cynos, they become immobile, and if a portable cyno jammer can also be fitted on any ship, it should have severe penalty to movement once activated - probably become immobile just like cyno gen ship. That would make things fair. As for a single frig preventing a huge fleet from cyno jumping into system - well, a single frig can also make a huge fleet appear in the system. So how is that not balanced out? Space is pretty big, so if some starts a 25km radius bubble, move out of the way to light your cyno. You can do it from safe spot, from friendly POS, or simply when the enemy is 30+ km away. Even if they have the mobile cyno jammer, it would take them 5+ seconds to get in range and activate it, enough for the insta-jumping fleet to enter. Once mobility issues are addressed, things seem to balance out quite nicely. Quote: It is a pretty good idea provided the required module can not be fitted on any old hull. One of my major gripes is that the cyno generator can be fitted on any old hull, even cheap disposable t1 frigs. I would be more than happy to restrict cyno jammer to a specific class of ships, provided that the cyno generator is also restricted to specific class of ships. Fair is fair.

K'racker Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.04.10 13:58:00 - [71] 3 possible modules have been discussed. 1. cyno 'displacer', which moves jump-in point 25 km. from cyno generator. 2. cyno 'jammer', which blocks a cyno from opening, immobilizing the jammer. 3. cyno 'collapser', which closes a cyno, immobilizing the ship using it. no two encounters are exactly alike, but game changes must take all conceivable into consideration. example a battleship being used as bait, and a cloaker hunting it: 1. attacker decloaks, points and webs bait. bait opens cyno, hot-dropped fleet appears 25 km. away. bait may not die, depending on incoming dps, and how fast the carriers jumping in can get remote reps on it. but the attacker will nearly always have time to escape. 2. attacker decloaks, points and webs bait, jams cyno. bait ship may live if it has mwd fitted, and the attacker doesn't have a scram fitted to keep it in range. attacker is safe from hot-drop, but may lose kill, if webbed, scrammed, target bs, with mwd shut down, can move 25 km. before exploding. 3. attacker decloaks, points and webs bait. bait ship opens cyno, coming to a complete stop. attacker collapses cyno, immobilizing himself, but preventing hot-drop. bait can live if webbed, scrammed, target bs, with mwd shut down, starting from zero speed, can move 25 km. before exploding. i think a little more thought needs to be put into these modules, so far only the safety of the attacker, and the demise of using bait ships at all, is nearly guaranteed. it becomes even more one-sided, if you have a wingman (or alt) to be the jammer, leaving the dps ship fully mobile to dictate range and hold point.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.04.10 15:10:00 - [72] Originally by: K'racker Valid concerns If one party is using a bait ship how do you tell which side is the attacker and why concern oneself about the baits survival? The scenarios you describe is exactly what that the idea is trying to address, the lame hot-drop on a handful of targets/bait-ship. It would have marginal effect in bubble-land where most every system is jammed anyway but a huge impact in low-sec fighting which is the objective. The whole idea of deploying capitals against sub-caps is insane, would be equal to carpet bombing an entire city block to kill a lone sniper (or similarly exaggerated response). The low-sec hot-drop is a major killjoy for everyone except the ones who conduct them (a minority I assure you). One can still have carrier support but has to be in place in system before hand to perform a regular warp if a jammer is expected. If it disrupts the PvP wannabes that can't win against anything larger than a HAC without capital support then I am all for it. As for the specific scenarios (2 and 3, not a fan of the displacement thing), why would a bait ship that just received a swift kick to its plans not warp off or jump a gate once the initial tackler immobilizes itself?
Athena Silk FW Inc Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2010.04.10 15:28:00 - [73] I do think a cyno needs some kind of counter. A lot of people in this thread seem to think that only one thing ever comes from a cyno: Smart-bombing carriers. But clearly, they've never gone into an "even" fight only to have 3 RR Carriers hot drop to start repping to the enemy fleet. Or even better, 3 RR Carriers and 50 RR BSs Titan bridged on top of them. There's no possible way to scout it, and no warning aside from the few seconds between a cyno going up and the enemy jumping in (usually accompanied by a crap-tonne of lag as 50-odd pilots appear on grid at once), and the fact is that most alliances and a lot of corps seem to be able to afford to do this any time they want. Currently, a cyno is "Press button, receive win", with the only response being "do it back, but bigger" or "GTFO". I like the idea of the mobile cyno disruptor being a script for a Heavy Interdictor. Range should be based on HIC skill (ideally with a max-skilled pilot getting 30-50k range on the anti-cyno bubble), and pilots warping to a cyno that's in the disruption bubble should appear anywhere within 150km of the cyno (ie anywhere from 0km to 150km in any direction). RR BS fleets will find themselves spread out and unable to support each other until they regroup (most likely needing to warp off and back again), Carriers will often find themselves out of rep range for their fleet, and so forth. A disruptor like that would probably need some kind of drawback, though, maybe something similar to what a cyno ship suffers from: Immobile and unable to receive friendly help (shield, armour, cap, etc) while the disruptor is active (keep the disruptor cycle as long as a current bubble cycle)? This way, you have an easily identifiable ship class that carries the disruptor, and some fairly severe drawbacks to actually activating said disruptor, but it's on a ship class that's already fairly tanky. Disruptor Vs Covert Cynos I'm unsure about. I'd lean towards "unaffected", because that's basically the whole point of Covert Cynos, but you could also argue for it still being disrupted. How this would affect Jump Freighters and other logistics is something that might need to get looked into, but in the end it may just come down to you needing scout your JF a little more carefully.
Xiang Jiao	Posted - 2010.04.10 23:48:00 - [74] I am enjoying the banter and fruitful discussion. Instead of adding new balancing issues with more modules, let's think about why nerfing local chat is a good idea (i.e. make it function like w-space). It will enforce better tactics in all aspects of the game. Capitals would be much more hesitant to jump blindly on top of fleets when an ambush may await them. Recon will actually take some skill. Jumps and kills per hour will start to become very meaningful stats.
frognugget UK Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2010.04.11 03:58:00 - [75] Edited by: frognugget on 11/04/2010 04:06:49 How about the cyno jammer targets the cyno itsself and consumes fuel for each attempted jump it blocks, simultaneously the cap ship that attempted to jump has a 30 sec cooldown b4 it can attempt to jump again(insert sci-fi bs for why). In addition the cyno ship consumes fuel for each successful jump. so sure your frig can jam the cyno, but it can only stop 2 attempted jumps, and sure your frig can light that cyno but only 2 caps can get through. im not gonna pretend to be a numbers guy so im not gonna throw out any hypothetical fuel ammounts ect so the fleet doing the hot drop can light multiple cynos if they feel like it, while the fleet that is getting hot dropped can field multiple cyno jammy thingies. probly limit 1 cyno or cyno jammer per ship? there also the issue of alts/neutrals spamming cyno jammer things so agression stuff would have 2 be worked out. edit-however this would create an issue for large alliances moving cap fleets around with huge volumes of fuel bein used, so a ship with bonuses to cyno fuel use may be necessary also not sure about industrials being able to use the cyno jammer any thoughts?
genette devo Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.04.11 05:26:00 - [76] lowsec toughguys crying about uneven fights, priceless. ponder that next time you are doing a 10 ship gangbang on a gate
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.04.11 06:53:00 - [77] Originally by: Xiang Jiao I am enjoying the banter and fruitful discussion. Instead of adding new balancing issues with more modules, let's think about why nerfing local chat is a good idea (i.e. make it function like w-space). It will enforce better tactics in all aspects of the game. Capitals would be much more hesitant to jump blindly on top of fleets when an ambush may await them. Recon will actually take some skill. Jumps and kills per hour will start to become very meaningful stats. Removing local won't solve the issue at hand. If the hot-dropper also does the necessary recon then you are back to square one with one side being completely unable to predict or anticipate anything in advance. Does the map tallies actually work now? last time I used it there was a significant delay making it pretty much useless as an intel tool. [Offtopic] Removing local would at present mainly benefit people with less than honourable intentions. It has to be balanced with some other way of knowing what is coming (time consuming scan perhaps) without having to resort to alts, spies and large gangs to maintain a semblance of safety. I am generally against removing local in high-/low-sec due to RP reasons unless it would enhance gameplay significantly which is not the case as it stands. For null-sec some kind of local control for a sovereignty holder would make sense but might further buff defensive efforts and by extension encourage even larger blobs .. either way, different topic entirely.[/Offtopic] Originally by: genette devo lowsec toughguys crying about uneven fights, priceless. What does that make you then? Ponder that as you accept the same mission for the umpteenth time in high-sec
Cartheron Crust Krazny Oktyabr Revolyutsiya Asomat Drive Yards	Posted - 2010.04.11 07:05:00 - [78] Don't just "half ass" it with a different script for a HIC. A new type of ship that uses the second tier BC hulls. Who doesn't want a T2 Hurricane?
Zybane Amarr the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.04.11 18:38:00 - [79] I love the idea of a HIC or new ship or module to put up a low-sec anti-cyno (and covert cyno) disruptor of say 30km range. When your gang is on a gate or out roaming, there is absolutely no counter to being hotdropped or titan bridged. There is no counter to it, which is why it needs balancing. The only thing you can do is escalation, and most low-sec corps and alliances don't have the resources to have dozens of people standing by waiting for a counter hot-drop. All the hot-drop does is allow the blob to win, just like every other time in Eve PvP. I've been hot-dropped too many times to count. Do you tink the hot-droppers are interested in a real fight? No, they bridge in/drop 2-3 times+ their opponents in order to get enough dps to kill one or two ships quickly. It's actually sad really that so much effort is put into only getting a kill or two. All the cyno hot-drop/titan bridging does is hurt small scall PvP even more by encouraging blobing.
Baneken Gallente Aseveljet Sev3rance	Posted - 2010.04.11 19:31:00 - [80] Edited by: Baneken on 11/04/2010 19:36:11 Simple fix to this issue would be making ships cost fuel based on their size as in one super cap or maybe two (in volume) and your cyno Arazu would run out of fuel in cargo. With this you could still cyno in other smaller ships but you would have to use something bigger (usually slow) non-tackler (and usually non cloaker) ship for your Friday nights '5 carriers vs. drake = gang bang' scenario. This would also give actual role for black ops as they would be only cloakers with large enough fuel bays to cyno in more then 2-3 super caps at a time. edit: Other solution would be to give all ships coming though cyno the same draw backs as non covert ops have now when they come out of cloak i.e. targeting delay, cannot jump/bridge/cloak anything for 2 minutes. Covert ops would unaffected by this 'cyno delay'.

Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.04.11 21:07:00 - [81] Originally by: Baneken ........ A reverse bridge type of thing. Would make capital battles almost impossible to setup since you'd need tons of cyno ships just to get the big dogs on the field. Could be solved by adding security status of system being jumped to as a multiplier, thus essentially exempting null-sec while practically requiring a hauler in 0.4 systems (which often have the camped high-sec borders). Personally more partial to a simpler system sec. multiplier on fuel consumption for all jumps. Would make having capitals "living" in low-sec a drain on the wallet and discourage the drops. Could even abuse the existence of the fuel bay to make two consecutive 0.1-0.2 jumps impossible without refuelling. Delay on warp/cloak/dock/bridge action after cyno could have some "happy" side-effects in the low-sec transit systems where carriers come and go on stations all day, as long as sieging and offensive action was not delayed that is
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.11 21:31:00 - [82] I really don't think Baneken's fuel idea is the way to go. It's much more radical than the cyno jammer and jump delay ideas, and would have very little impact on small gang hot drops while having huge impact on large scale fleet battles. The whole point of this thread is to provide some counters against people hot dropping their carriers on 1-5 ship roaming gangs, where small guys have no chance.
genette devo Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.04.11 21:49:00 - [83] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Xiang Jiao I am enjoying the banter and fruitful discussion. Instead of adding new balancing issues with more modules, let's think about why nerfing local chat is a good idea (i.e. make it function like w-space). It will enforce better tactics in all aspects of the game. Capitals would be much more hesitant to jump blindly on top of fleets when an ambush may await them. Recon will actually take some skill. Jumps and kills per hour will start to become very meaningful stats. Removing local won't solve the issue at hand. If the hot-dropper also does the necessary recon then you are back to square one with one side being completely unable to predict or anticipate anything in advance. Does the map tallies actually work now? last time I used it there was a significant delay making it pretty much useless as an intel tool. [Offtopic] Removing local would at present mainly benefit people with less than honourable intentions. It has to be balanced with some other way of knowing what is coming (time consuming scan perhaps) without having to resort to alts, spies and large gangs to maintain a semblance of safety. I am generally against removing local in high-/low-sec due to RP reasons unless it would enhance gameplay significantly which is not the case as it stands. For null-sec some kind of local control for a sovereignty holder would make sense but might further buff defensive efforts and by extension encourage even larger blobs .. either way, different topic entirely.[/Offtopic] Originally by: genette devo lowsec toughguys crying about uneven fights, priceless. What does that make you then? Ponder that as you accept the same mission for the umpteenth time in high-sec I make most of my money in losec, I just don't cry when I lose, i figure out what went wrong and modify my approach, I don't go out and cry about the tactic somebody used to take me down. I actually like pirates they make things interesting and keep some of my competition away. If you lose, figure out a way to win, If you can't, well....I'm sure there are other things you are good at.
SuperNova221 Ragnarok Rising THE SPACE P0LICE	Posted - 2010.04.11 22:36:00 - [84] I think it's safe to say the whole issue could be fixed by making the cyno's a large blue thingy like it used to be. Or, if that isn't possible, a quantum waveform like in Homeworld. Fixing the effect will totally balance this.
Zorno	Posted - 2010.04.11 23:02:00 - [85] Are people really too lazy/stupid to adapt tactics when trying to attack bait? It's not really my thing to teach people to pvp but if you die to a cyno Drake you are doing it wrong.
Zybane the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.04.12 00:29:00 - [86] Originally by: Zorno Are people really too lazy/stupid to adapt tactics when trying to attack bait? It's not really my thing to teach people to pvp but if you die to a cyno Drake you are doing it wrong. Let's hear your amazing tactics master Yoda. I am sure no-one in this thread has ever thought of such incredible tactics such as you could espouse! Of course there are ways to limit/minimize the effects of the bait-hotdrop. Unfortunately they are severely detrimental to the small gang in low-sec while keeping the hot-drop I-win button unchanged.
Dimitryy Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.12 00:42:00 - [87] Supporting Anti-cyno mod for the hictor, can think of lots of cool ways it can be used as well, and it could really make the hictor come into its own. ------------------------------------------ Jack Blackstone > Dimitryy I hope you die.
Zorno	Posted - 2010.04.12 00:56:00 - [88] Originally by: Zorno It's not really my thing to teach people to pvp. Have fun getting ganked.
KillUJim	Posted - 2010.04.12 02:01:00 - [89] Hotdropping is part of the game. But i do like the idea of a module for a hic that can jam cyno's within a short radius. I Feel this would add a great new dynamic to the game, especially if a bubble and a mobile cyno jam could not be used at same time. A Mobile cynojammer is something i can see being used in low-sec, and 0.0, small gang, and large capital engagements, maybe an offensive measure after you have moved your entire fleet in you can cynojam the battlefield, giving you the advantage untill your cynojam is gone. This is something that would require fast reaction and something pilots could excell at and pilots could totally Muck up, life fail bubblers, fail cyno jammers.
Baneken Gallente Aseveljet Sev3rance	Posted - 2010.04.12 07:56:00 - [90] A cyno jammer bubble with same variations in size as we have with regular bubbles ? Sounds good to me. Likely needs a special restriction of not not having warp bubble and cyno bubble in same space so you can't double bubble someone's bait ship. ?

debbie harrio	Posted - 2010.04.12 08:26:00 - [91] Hehe, if the whingers fitted a different weapon system to their ships instead of smartbombs they might do what all other gangs do when a cyno is lit and kill the cyno ship leaving only a fraction of the hot drop on the field. But no, they want their OMFG WE ARE SO 1337 gate camping tactics to be able to operate with impunity and have no counter. A hot drop to your lame tactics is exactly the same as what you are doing yourselves to the people on the gates traveling through the system, do what everyone else does when a cyno goes up, KILL THE CYNO.
Mark Hadden Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke	Posted - 2010.04.12 08:55:00 - [92] crap thread. Cyno is the only way to kill a gatecamp with x scouts in all adjacent systems. Accept that, stop camping or go to high sec.
Polaris Lumine Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2010.04.12 10:12:00 - [93] Originally by: Hazel Starr Stuff And the counter to the gate camping you are doing would then be.....what exactly? Hot dropping is one of those risks you should have to live with, and if you're smart, be prepared for (whatever that contingency plan would be)
Iteken Hotori Minmatar Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.04.12 10:31:00 - [94] I like the way the OP has written and structured his pst. However it's a completely laughable concept once you come to realise that the only way to realistically break up a low-sec gatecamp utilizing Spidertanking BS, Remote Sensor Boosting, Insta-Lock Hictors and Neutral scouts in every direction is to repeatedly drop Carriers, Supercarriers, and Fleets onto them until you get bored of this and leave. After a few goes at this the Pirates either Figure out a way to kill the carriers, and get the warm fuzzies that come with low-sec cap kills, or go somewhere else. The main issue i have though is your assertion of "capital ships online" and this being a new phenomenon. It was new and exciting in 2007. If you haven't learned to deal with it by now, you need help.
Cameron Freerunner	Posted - 2010.04.12 14:32:00 - [95] What is the obsession with "counters"? Who says everything has to have a direct "counter"? This is what I was saying earlier about this game becoming more like Mortal Kombat. Some people want everything to come down to two ships, right then, right there. I push button A, so you push button B. That is NOT what game balance means. Not one of you who is for this proposal has bothered to break down the game mechanics of the current cyno jammer. Why do you think they made it part of the sov structure game mechanics? Doesn't that tell you just how powerful jamming can be? And now you want to take it mobile where it can be wielded like a scalpel. Any half competent FC could render a cap fleet useless with these ships. But you know what? It won't solve YOUR problem. Why? You fly in a small gang. At best you might field two of these new ships because you'll still need to field dps. The hot drop bait will become two or three ships, instead of one, so that at least one is able to pop the cyno. So you're STILL going to get dropped. And for the early posters who said they were solo or in pairs, you won't be able to field one at all. You don't think game balance would allow a ship this powerful (bubble/cyno jam) to mount serious dps, do you? But it will totally alter cap fleet mechanics. If you want to understand game balance, stop thinking about this like its just your ship and the bait ship.
Hurtful Words Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2010.04.12 16:18:00 - [96] Originally by: Cameron Freerunner Never engage a solo recon unless you're prepared for a hot drop. Best advice in this thread.
Malakai Draevyn Caldari Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.	Posted - 2010.04.12 16:38:00 - [97] Personally, am all for this 'cyno displacer' which drops people 25km away (go on - let's make it 30km - I dare you) from the original point of cyno. As one of the afore-mentioned covops cyno stealthbomber hotdroppers, it would land everything in the fleet at exactly the correct optimal range to rain down a torrent of torps and bombs onto your little fleet. Be careful what you wish for... You might just get it, and it might not exactly swing in your favour. ..:: MD ::..
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.04.12 17:40:00 - [98] Originally by: Malakai Draevyn ...As one of the afore-mentioned covops cyno stealthbomber hotdroppers, it would land everything in the fleet at exactly the correct optimal range to rain down a torrent of torps and bombs onto your little fleet. Be careful what you wish for... You might just get it, and it might not exactly swing in your favour. Good thing almost all proponents in the thread want it as a low-sec option and could care less about the silly null-sec bomber gangs .. but you are welcome to use your flimsy ship near sentries, I am sure Concord is just as hungry for mails as we are
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.12 19:00:00 - [99] I'd like to remind people that the proposed "counters" are not removing the tactic of hot dropping from game. We are not trying to prevent hot drops as viable tactic. It can still be done even against the ships using proposed counters, only with a little bit more effort and a little bit more team work. In worst case scenario, it would require 2 ships to go in for the hot drop - one as bait, other as cyno generator to drop cyno outside of range of attackers who swarm the bait. Both sides use team work. Both sides have a chance to achieve their objectives.
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.12 19:09:00 - [100] Originally by: Hurtful Words Originally by: Cameron Freerunner Never engage a solo recon unless you're prepared for a hot drop. Best advice in this thread. Oh yea, so unless I'm in one of the mega alliances with 100 dreads and several titans on standby, I shouldn't bother with PvP at all, right? After all, that lonely recon just MAY have 99 dreads on standby and I need to make sure I got more before I should try PvP What excellent advice And while we are on the subject of good advice, how can someone with your reasoning against this counter ignore the fact that EVE has a system wide cyno jammer POS module, which is MUCH more powerful and clearly overpowered compared to the very limited usability of proposed mobile cyno jammer? If you firmly believe that cynos should not be jammed, you should be screaming your head off at the "injustice" of system cyno jammers. But if you purposefully ignore it, you are either just not smart enough to see the obvious inconsistency in game design or you just don't give a damn about game design, and just say whatever you feel like without relying on logic.

Malakai Draevyn Caldari Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.	Posted - 2010.04.12 19:37:00 - [101] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Malakai Draevyn ...As one of the afore-mentioned covops cyno stealthbomber hotdroppers, it would land everything in the fleet at exactly the correct optimal range to rain down a torrent of torps and bombs onto your little fleet. Be careful what you wish for... You might just get it, and it might not exactly swing in your favour. Good thing almost all proponents in the thread want it as a low-sec option and could care less about the silly null-sec bomber gangs .. but you are welcome to use your flimsy ship near sentries, I am sure Concord is just as hungry for mails as we are Sentries ? Been there, done that - it's quite amusing really..... when you're in a 'silly' bomber gang that's taking out tanked battleships quicker than the damn sentries can take out the paper-thin bombers, then vanishing into the mist, they really don't bother you all that much. Food for thought, isn't it? ;) ..:: MD ::..
Capt Lothar Monolithic. Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2010.04.12 20:40:00 - [102] Remember that day, April 5th of this year to be exact, when your terribad alliance attempted to finish off an ADHD POS which had come out of RF with 6 dreadnaughts. We cynoed in a mothership and some carriers... you logoffski'd one dread which e-warped away even though we had it pointed... then you self destructed 3 of your dreadnaughts... we killed 2... So you see, you are wrong when you say there is no counter. You self destructed 3 dreads, logoffski'd one, then went on and on about how this is just a game and you didn't want those capitals anyway. Roughnecks - 1 ADHD - 0 Please re-size your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Hazel Starr Krypteia Brotherhood	Posted - 2010.04.12 21:25:00 - [103] Sigh...Capt Lothar, if you could be bothered to read my original post, you would notice that it took place three days before the incident you described. But thank you for providing an example to back up my argument that there is a problem in low-sec play with the ability of large alliances to move major reserves onto a battlefield across many systems faster than an in-system fleet could warp from one location to another within the same system.
Cameron Freerunner	Posted - 2010.04.13 19:17:00 - [104] Originally by: Ephemeron Originally by: Cameron Freerunner Never engage a solo recon unless you're prepared for a hot drop. Oh yea, so unless I'm in one of the mega alliances with 100 dreads and several titans on standby, I shouldn't bother with PvP at all, right? After all, that lonely recon just MAY have 99 dreads on standby and I need to make sure I got more before I should try PvP What excellent advice And while we are on the subject of good advice, how can someone with your reasoning against this counter ignore the fact that EVE has a system wide cyno jammer POS module, which is MUCH more powerful and clearly overpowered compared to the very limited usability of proposed mobile cyno jammer? If you firmly believe that cynos should not be jammed, you should be screaming your head off at the "injustice" of system cyno jammers. This is where your conversation takes a turn for the irrational and inaccurate. I never said jamming was bad. I said a single, push button jamming module solution was bad. If you scroll up three inches, you'll see I ask you to examine system-wide jamming game mechanics; their obvious power; and how they figure into the sov structure. If you want to know why no one is ***ing about system jammers, its because the necessary sov level to achieve it means that the resident sov holders have held a system for an extended period of time. It means they invested a lot of time and resources and combat to get it setup in the first place. They'll also still have to keep working hard to keep the sov necessary to keep it running. It's also only active in 0.0 and its immobile. Have you EVER even READ anything about 0.0, sov, and fleets? As for my advice, he was responding (I think) to a sort of inside joke. The advice is sound however. It won't be 99 cap ships, it will be a fleet of stealth bombers. If you're foolish enough to enage without intel and forethought, well... you're foolish. Quote: But if you purposefully ignore it, you are either just not smart enough to see the obvious inconsistency in game design or you just don't give a damn about game design, and just say whatever you feel like without relying on logic. This thread was going so well; then you had to get personal. What do you know about game design? Nothing. Or you would never have proposed that a module be added to solve your 30km problem. 30 friggin' kilometers. All of nullsec has been dealing with drops for years, but here you are ***ing. Good luck, you're going to need it.
AmIDeadyet	Posted - 2010.04.13 22:12:00 - [105] Zomg people with more money have cooler toys? Go figure! If you are engaging a corp capable of dropping caps, you do so at your own peril, don't whine when they respond. Anyone remember about that cool military tactic known as an "ambush"? Military experts say that those not prepared for it usually die to it. Adapt and overcome. Less QQ please. Do you think any country who picks a fight with a bigger country is going to whine about fairness when they start getting bombed by aircraft, have paratroopers and tanks used against them? And just fyi, in FW we deal with it on a daily basis, and guess what? Makes for more fun. We just had a 3 sided fight where 2 of the 3 hot dropped capitals. Guess what? capitals died. Don't take away my capital kills please. Cynos are fine as is. As for the mass idea, do you seriously want to sit down and have to calculate the combined mass of a large fleet to figure out how many cynos you need?
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.13 22:40:00 - [106] some people like chess, some people like checkers
Makar Kravchenko	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:33:00 - [107] I have dreams of Capital Class Ships with Capital Class Mobile Cyno Jamming Modules. Powered by StrontiumÖ 10min Cycles, Dirupts all cyno operations in current system. Not including Covert. Immobilizing ship using Cyno Jammer. Possible option for new Mothership class? :D Possibly a Tech 2 variant of the Super-Carrier class? I know this does not solve the bane of random hot-drops. My suggestion there is to fly a ship with high dps, and kill the cyno ship before his friends can jump and repair him - then warp away.
Cameron Freerunner	Posted - 2010.04.14 02:17:00 - [108] Originally by: Ephemeron some people like chess, some people like checkers Let me know when you're ready for chess. Until then, king me.
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.14 02:53:00 - [109] I'm afraid you are the one playing checkers. I want more pieces, that do different things, to make some fancier strategies with. The important information has been presented, the rest is just repeating the same thing over and over again on both sides.
debbie harrio	Posted - 2010.04.14 07:23:00 - [110] Originally by: Ephemeron I'm afraid you are the one playing checkers. I want more pieces, that do different things, to make some fancier strategies with. The important information has been presented, the rest is just repeating the same thing over and over again on both sides. I see that went straight over your head, you are the one looking to carry on your lame tactics with impunity, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the present mechanics. Kill the Cyno ship, stops hot drop, what is so hard about that, if you can't kill cyno ship you are just failsauce.

Baneken Gallente Aseveljet Sev3rance	Posted - 2010.04.14 14:18:00 - [111] Originally by: debbie harrio Kill the Cyno ship, stops hot drop, what is so hard about that, if you can't kill cyno ship you are just failsauce. It's not the question of killing the cyno ship, it's about what comes through the cyno and kills you anyway.
Jarne Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vivisection.	Posted - 2010.04.14 15:03:00 - [112] Just a note: A cyno "displacer" would just be abused by gankers to gank caps on logistic runs in the usual lowsec staging points. Cloak at station, wait for cyno, decloak and activate cyno displacer, hope for incoming cap to come in out of docking range, gank. Apart from that, the following is a view of the current state: How it is now with warping - You are warping from your current position to another point in system. You cannot warp if you are scrambled or bubbled. Scrambling cannot affect where you come out of warp. Bubbles at the destination may affect where you come out of warp, if they are inline with your starting position and not farther away from your destination than 100km. How it is now with jumping - You are jumping from your current position to a cyno in another system. You cannot jump if you are scrambled or bubbled. Neither scrambling nor bubbling can affect where you "come out of the jump". You can clearly see there are strong similarities between jumping and warping, but there is a subtle difference: The destination of the jump is only determined by the position of the cyno, where the destination of a warp can be affected by bubbles (in 0.0 only of course). Wether you see this as an argument pro mobile cyno jammer or similar is up to you. - Success=Achievements/Expectations
debbie harrio	Posted - 2010.04.14 15:39:00 - [113] Originally by: Baneken ] It's not the question of killing the cyno ship, it's about what comes through the cyno and kills you anyway. A competent gang can kill a bait cyno drake in seconds but then again you won't do it in smartbombing BS's. My corp has done this many times, sometimes a carrier or 2 lands, some times a few ships but as soon as that cyno is dead, no more land, if you're up to it kill them as well. Smartbombing battleship gate griefers in low sec are prime targets for hotdrop gangs, so maybe that is what the problem here is, they have been noted and get a lot of attention off bigger corps/alliances with caps/titans, if this is the case I would recommend that they change their tactics and fit some offensive hi slot modules.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.04.14 16:51:00 - [114] Originally by: debbie harrio Smartbombing battleship gate griefers in low sec are prime targets for hotdrop gangs, so maybe that is what the problem here is, they have been noted and get a lot of attention off bigger corps/alliances with caps/titans, if this is the case I would recommend that they change their tactics and fit some offensive hi slot modules. And what of the remaining 90% of the people being victimised by bored capital pilots and corps/alliances who has failed in null-sec? Drops used against pirate camps represents a small minority of the total. Drops are not just carriers/dreads but an increasing number of bridges made from 100% safe (no bubbling) Titans from inside low-sec POS'es. That is what is breaking low-sec life. The pirates have been here since before Capitals were even introduced and are killed or driven off by regular hulls on a daily basis.
Cameron Freerunner	Posted - 2010.04.14 17:07:00 - [115] Originally by: Ephemeron I'm afraid you are the one playing checkers. Weak riposte Originally by: Ephemeron I want more pieces, that do different things, to make some fancier strategies with. Yet you can't handle the complexities of a hot drop. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida And what of the remaining 90% of the people being victimised by bored capital pilots and corps/alliances who has failed in null-sec? So far few people have had anything at all to say about it. This appears to be the only current thread.
Darek Castigatus Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel	Posted - 2010.04.14 18:07:00 - [116] funny, ive been a practising pirate in multiple regions of lowsec for over a year and have only been hotdropped once,and that was when we brought our dreads to finish off an rfed pos. Reluctance to engage in lowsec has nothing to do with hotdrops and everything to do with fear of a blob and the healthy sense of paranoia you need to cultivate to live in lowsec in the first place.
debbie harrio	Posted - 2010.04.14 18:46:00 - [117] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida And what of the remaining 90% of the people being victimised by bored capital pilots and corps/alliances who has failed in null-sec? Drops used against pirate camps represents a small minority of the total. Drops are not just carriers/dreads but an increasing number of bridges made from 100% safe (no bubbling) Titans from inside low-sec POS'es. That is what is breaking low-sec life. The pirates have been here since before Capitals were even introduced and are killed or driven off by regular hulls on a daily basis. The only time I have seen these type of threads is from griefer gate camps who want to carry on with their 1337 tactics with impunity. The reason Low sec is empty is because of these idiots, not because of hotdrops. And yes I do know about titan bridges. Victimised LOLZ....grow up. and tell me how is a titan 100% safe at a POS in low sec? Destroy the pos and it's pilot is unable to log on.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.04.15 08:01:00 - [118] Originally by: debbie harrio and tell me how is a titan 100% safe at a POS in low sec? Destroy the pos and it's pilot is unable to log on. Bubbles do not exist remember? Destroying a stronted POS takes two days so pilot can log on at any time and jump out if he wants. Has no effect on a pilots ability to log on .. don't know where you got that notion. Even if you kill a POS and it is logged off you have station 2+ HIC (one without backup gets DD'ed) permanently at the location in case it logs on .. have fun with that. Yes, victimised. What other word fits when sub-BC gangs are dropped by massive BS blobs and/or X amount of carriers? It is being done against frigate gangs for craps sake, that is how badly the null-sec fail-trains affect low-sec life. Capitals have no place in low-sec so it should be prohibitively expensive to use capitals in low-sec. Low-sec is Empire space .. you don't see American carriers launching air-strikes against random criminals on British soil either, which is what it amounts to. If people fail in null-sec there are loads of 0.0 NPC areas they can flee to while planning their rebuilding.
Darek Castigatus Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel	Posted - 2010.04.15 13:22:00 - [119] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Yes, victimised. What other word fits when sub-BC gangs are dropped by massive BS blobs and/or X amount of carriers? It is being done against frigate gangs for craps sake, that is how badly the null-sec fail-trains affect low-sec life. proof please. Show me one low sec engagement involving a primarily 0.0 based alliance where caps were deployed simply because they could be and not because they were needed. The only outfit ive ever known to do it is Quam Singularity and guess what, THEY LIVE IN LOWSEC. Far as i can see you're simply spouting hyberbole without any proof to back it up
the plague Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.04.15 20:07:00 - [120] Although I'm not sure I agree with him, the OP actually raises a fairly interesting question. I remember how in Homeworld some ships were able to fit some type of hyperspace inhibitor module that essentially served the same function as what several members have asked for in this thread. It didn't actually prohibit all incoming hyperspace jumps, instead it simply bounced them a short distance away, essentially acting as protection against "hot-drops." Interestingly enough, since this module was quite powerful, it could only be fitted to the larger capital ships, and not just any old destroyer or whatever. In EVE, a similar module that could be fit to a supercap might not be an entirely bad idea. Of course, this wouldn't really serve the needs of the OP since he was originally asking for a module that a small gang could use to effectively block out an incoming cap fleet. But really, should a small roving gang of cruisers or whatever be able to cynojam an incoming cap fleet? I think not.

Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.15 20:25:00 - [121] Quote: Of course, this wouldn't really serve the needs of the OP since he was originally asking for a module that a small gang could use to effectively block out an incoming cap fleet. But really, should a small roving gang of cruisers or whatever be able to cynojam an incoming cap fleet? I think not. I would like to clarify again, since it seems to be a common misconception, that the proposed cyno jammer does not block or prevent hot drops by large fleets. What it does is force that fleet to find a location for cyno that is at least 30km away from the ship with cyno jammer. Any determined fleet would be able to enter the system no matter how many mobile cyno jammers are active, because it is very easy to get around the 30km sphere in 3D space.
Deja Thoris Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.04.16 01:52:00 - [122] I'm all in favour of balance but tbh most of your kills are station ganks or gate ganks where you scout the surrounds and only engage when you think the win is assured. Your preferred type of pvp (the gank) meant that people that want to kill you have to do so through unscouted means, this means a cyno and with enough overwhelming force that they have to kill you before you deagg and dock or jump. In short, you brought it on yourself.
Phantom Circuit Devious Decorum Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2010.04.16 03:13:00 - [123] Originally by: Hazel Starr Sigh...Capt Lothar, if you could be bothered to read my original post, you would notice that it took place three days before the incident you described. But thank you for providing an example to back up my argument that there is a problem in low-sec play with the ability of large alliances to move major reserves onto a battlefield across many systems faster than an in-system fleet could warp from one location to another within the same system. You assume that we just jumped in vent and went "Oh lawdy, Dreads!" We had those ships waiting for you to bring the Dreads before you had even lost the Raven and Falcon fleet, it's not a simple thing to bring a Nyx and a few Carriers in, kill what you need to and manage to get them out all in one piece. When you bring a large Battleship fleet to an engagement or try to siege a tower with Dreads, you need to assume that people are going to light a cyno to even the odds. I'd think that would be pretty common sense honestly.
Mal Lokrano Gallente Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.16 03:26:00 - [124] Why whine about it when you can set up a trap hotdrop against their hotdrop? or in other words HTFU and get back to killing already ____________________________________________ When going to a party with wine, women, and song. Always ascertain the vintage of the first two.
eddie valvetino Caldari Bi-Polar Bears	Posted - 2010.04.16 14:43:00 - [125] Originally by: Deja Thoris I'm all in favour of balance but tbh most of your kills are station ganks or gate ganks where you scout the surrounds and only engage when you think the win is assured. Your preferred type of pvp (the gank) meant that people that want to kill you have to do so through unscouted means, this means a cyno and with enough overwhelming force that they have to kill you before you deagg and dock or jump. In short, you brought it on yourself. Couldn't agree more... seen a few things here that have just made me wonder why you play eve. I'm sure the poster here and most of the guys who are in favour of changes are indeed, gankers, no doubt they wonder around low sec, with blinkers on and that is why they get WTFPWNED by caps. 1. Know you local area, know who will drop you, know who wont. Find out who has who blue and if they are likely to drop you. 2. If you fear caps dropping you and you know who will drop you, have eyes in the system they are likely to jump from. 3. Making the cyno killable??? is the cyno ship made unkillable by the firing of a cyno? NO 4. Caps don't just magical appear, there a defined and predictable chain of events that preceed the dropping of caps. If you get WFTPWNED by caps, or a bridge then you had it coming and in many cases in all regions of space it is the only way to get a fight out of some of corps in eve, as they will only fight if they believe they are certain of winning. to be honest you need to get used to it, caps will only become more and more used in pvp in eve. and finally... the gentleman who suggested that cap warfare in lowsec makes lowsec combat about how much isk a corp or alliance has, is spot on... however, this is not new it has ALWAYS been the case and will always be the case, your opinion to be frank is naive.
Darek Castigatus Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel	Posted - 2010.04.16 21:08:00 - [126] By the way Hirana im still waiting for that proof, but i guess thats par for the course when it comes to claims like yours isnt it.
Zagdul	Posted - 2010.04.27 15:59:00 - [127] Edited by: Zagdul on 27/04/2010 16:01:40 Here are my ideas... just delay the time between jump to > and the actual jump. Call it "Jump drive spool up". make this 3 seconds the cap has to wait before jumping. Can even put a pretty animation in the UI "Spooling..." This gives 3 seconds for a fleet being dropped to respond and kill the cyno ship. This would also stop people from using cheap 30k T1 frigs which are insta popped as a tool and make them more of a hazard as a cyno ship in combat. They can still be used for logistics, but help remove them from combat. The second idea... Cap ships can only spool up if they are < a specific speed or percentage of their max speed. Say... 10%. What this will help would be to "bump" a super cap or cap over the speed of "Spooling".
Rockstara Perkone	Posted - 2010.04.30 18:55:00 - [128] This is silly. Hotdropped capitals pose little risk to skirmish gangs, even with bubbles in null sec. If you are in an RR BS gang, and worried about a triage hotdrop - have your own triage on standby. If you suffer constant hotdrops and don't have the capital hardware to set a trap you are going to have to make friends either with the promise of capital kills or payments of isk. carriers and dreads suck against subcap ships.
Patrice Macmahon Department of Defence	Posted - 2010.04.30 19:56:00 - [129] Here is the core of the hot dropping issue: Right now the only counter to Hot Dropping, is another counter Hot Drop. Sounds similar to the nano fleet issue from not to long ago. If the only way to counter something is to use that thing, the whole rock paper sisors game is broken. I like the idea of an grid, grid wide cyno jamming device. Forces though who do wish to use the tactic the need to cyno in, off grid, and then warp to location. Make the jammer deployable, destroyable from a specific high slot module, and timer baised. Which means that players have to re-deploy or re-fuel these grid jammers evers 5-10 minutes or so. That way its not a fire and forget. I like the idea of making these kinds of modules Interdictor baised/hic baised. Another minor change that could help out is put a 30-60 second delay on cyno's going up and fleet jumping through the bridge. That wouldn't be too hard and would give time for a counter for quick watching fleet watchers... Would create another game of cat and mouse, where corps have 3 cyno's go up in one system and you have to guess which one is gonna deploy through and give more use to high AU speed warping ships.... Doesnt kill the Hot drop, just makes both parties work for/against it a bit better. The Intakis have an obligation to defend the Federation, but not to assult others on its behalf.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.04.30 20:37:00 - [130] Originally by: Rockstara This is silly. Hotdropped capitals pose little risk to skirmish gangs, even with bubbles in null sec. If you are in an RR BS gang, and worried about a triage hotdrop - have your own triage on standby. If you suffer constant hotdrops and don't have the capital hardware to set a trap you are going to have to make friends either with the promise of capital kills or payments of isk. carriers and dreads suck against subcap ships. I recommend you try flying in Delve for a few weeks before you make such wildly inaccurate claims. And if you got caps willing to jump into a hostile hot drop for isk, I may arrange some work for you. Make sure to fit nice mods.

CannibalCorpseZor Caldari HISTORY INC	Posted - 2010.05.15 15:23:00 - [131] I disagree with the op. Things are fine as they are now. There is always risk and counter risk in EvE. When I hot drop on you, there is always a distinct risk that you will hot drop on me and that the engagement will escalate. I pirated in this game for years, and was fine with that risk as the ones doing the hot drops always had to fear that I had a cyno too. Enter the whines on capital ships online. Capital ships are part of the game! And seeing as they are slow, extremely slow to target anything, giving the targets even more of a time edge just seems wrong. If you are stupid enough to engage an unknown quantity, then you deserve a hot drop. And if someone hot drops u in their titan or supercarrier, they are risking losing them! This gimping of caps and super caps is ridiculous. If you are worried about them, always carry a HIC in your fleet. If not, then STFU or fly a ship you are prepared to lose. Or, grind the isk machine and get caps or friends who have caps. Caps are here and you can't wish them away from low sec space. Oh, and have you ever heard of large pirate corporations doing hot drops? I have. More so, I think this is leading to a ridiculous situation where caps are only going to be used for POS warfare. What fun shooting at towers! As for the "warning" you ask for, it is built into the cap ships with the ridiculous scan res, especially if you have a cloak, which most supercaps and some caps have. Kill the tackling ship if you want to get away. And even if there was a ridiculous delay, which I am strongly against, you couldn't because you would already be tackled. In conclusion, there should be no additional delay or cyno jammer as a ship module. This would further gimp caps and especially supercaps that just got buffed. If you are afraid of hot drops you wussies, get more friends or maybe trap those sneaky cap ships. The point is not to whine. Adapt and get more friends, bud. And as far as I know everything can be tackled in the game now. CannibalCorpseZor
Muad' Dib Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2010.05.15 19:26:00 - [132] Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 15/05/2010 19:36:49 Originally by: Zoe Midoru Originally by: Bomberlocks The problem is not hot dropping per se. The problem is smaller corps in losec and nubs being totally outclassed and steamrolled by corps and alliances with cash and vets in their team. In other words it's the same old s h i t as 0.0 where the bigger the corp/alliance the bigger its gravitational effect squeezing out the smaller players until its just blob vs blob again with all the attendant lag/crashes and other CCP incompetencies and excuses flying thick and heavy though the air. Quoted for being the most important thing said in this entire thread. The vicissitudes of hotdrops suppressing PvP in lowsec et al are part of the symptoms, not part of the causes. Very well said by Bomberlocks. In Caldari/Gallente space you got ADHD/CH dropping on everything, in Minnie space you got BANE and Amarr FW corps. Dejah is correct in some things but he cleverly forgets others. Sure it goes a lot into planning to kill some caps/supercap, but when you see someone use an OOC alt to drop a Nyx on a T1 cruiser, than IT IS **ED UP. I'm sure there are other entities in low-sec amarr - Chain of Chaos comes to mind now for the Ami area, but the entire situation has gotten out of hand. You obviously can't force such entities to move to 0.0 through game designing since all they care about are kills - cap kills preferably, you can't force them to stop NAP-ing everyone with capital power within 20-30ly - and i say this as one of those that was guilty of it, so the only sensible solution is to somehow limit the cyno itself. Quite frankly the carrier drop is not even such a big issue anymore, it's the titan bridging that is becoming more of a problem and the supercap EHP. Right now there are 300+ titans in the game and in the hands of these entities there are at least 10%. These numbers continue to go up. Originally by:** Ephemeron Originally by: Rockstara This is silly. Hotdropped capitals pose little risk to skirmish gangs, even with bubbles in null sec. If you are in an RR BS gang, and worried about a triage hotdrop - have your own triage on standby. If you suffer constant hotdrops and don't have the capital hardware to set a trap you are going to have to make friends either with the promise of capital kills or payments of isk. carriers and dreads suck against subcap ships. I recommend you try flying in Delve for a few weeks before you make such wildly inaccurate claims. And if you got caps willing to jump into a hostile hot drop for isk, I may arrange some work for you. Make sure to fit nice mods. Nobody drops 1 triage carrier to even out the odds. Well, i used to do it and it went well for 5-6 drops - and i only did it when we were outnumbered vastly. Fact is that even R&K who would gladly suicide a triage carrier for a good fight always have backup. The 1st triage carrier is either to win, or to tease you into comitting your own caps to the field. PS: I just remembered, check the Molden Intel channel MOTD. That region used to be fantastic for solo or small gang pvp, but ever since FDN started the trend of hotdropping cruisers with moms, it went to ****. I think right now it's QUAM that does it. --- I smack just for myself. Allow faction cap boosters to be traded via normal market !
Muad' Dib Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2010.05.15 20:15:00 - [133] Originally by: Darek Castigatus By the way Hirana im still waiting for that proof, but i guess thats par for the course when it comes to claims like yours isnt it. I'll help you out, going out of Tannolen - and before Atlar, is a pretty big chore. http://genos.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=6565008 - hotdrops Vigilant with a Nyx http://genos.killmail.org/?a=kill_related&kll_id=6425198 - hotdrop of small gang with Nyx Look up eve-kill stats on the characters Behedwin, Rakkata, Submit2me. All of them are innocently looking alts for hotdropping. Let's find some choice stuff, shall we ? http://eve-kill.net//?a=kill_related&kll_id=5637688 - obviously the hotdroppers were just looking for a gf. http://eve-kill.net//?a=kill_related&kll_id=6133000 - or this. http://eve-kill.net//?a=kill_detail&kll_id=6147643 - or this. I'd link some of Submit's drops but you can't be 100% sure it's a drop unless the ship dies too - he has yet to lose his bait Occator. He does do a lot of blackops drops - and you can use a normal cyno for that. If i wanted to waste my time further, i guess i could go and dig up the old characters used by CH/ADHD, like that bait Phoenix with a Cyno. Obviously it is not just CH/ADHD that do it but having lived in the area for 1.5yrs, they are the only ones for which i have examples currently. I don't think there is anything wrong with the cyno overall, i do believe there is something wrong with the cyno's operation in low-sec because you cannot do cap warfare unless you have one of the big 200+ cap blobs as blue - outside of carrier repp on station off-c. I say this as one of those ppl that used to be part of the blob, and as someone who has 3 capital ready alts right now, one of them being Titan/SC. --- I smack just for myself. Allow faction cap boosters to be traded via normal market !
Karan SaJet	Posted - 2010.05.16 03:26:00 - [134] Brother hood aliance hahaha Thats what u get for killing a curse that u should have not killed.
Zalafas Minmatar	Posted - 2010.05.16 04:54:00 - [135] The first time I saw a capital ship in action was when some alliance-mates decided to attack a known pirate in a battleship, only to have said pirate cyno in a Nyx. We fought on anyway and got wiped out. It wasn't a big deal -- I didn't lose much at the time. It was kind of funny, really. :) I have a couple to things to say, though. I won't comment on the gigantic fleet battles involving many capital ships cyno'ing in at once -- haven't been part of that. I do think it's odd that you can be fighting someone in lowsec, only to have them drop a cyno and have some gigantic capital ship (or ships) start appearing shortly thereafter without limitations. There's always a risk that someone might overpower you, or bring friends to the system, but this seems a bit excessive. I'd like to point out, too, that the countermeasures discussed here seem to mostly apply to large fleets. It makes sense that, if you have lots of battleships in system, and lots of capital ships at your back, that you'd counter-hotdrop someone, or melt down the cyno ship fast. However, if you're alone, or have a small group of friends, and you don't have any capital ships around (or simply don't have any capital ships period!), then none of that works. Maybe something could be done with cyno game mechanics in lowsec? I dunno...
Drendel	Posted - 2010.05.16 06:28:00 - [136] If the real issue is hotdrop's why not make it where a targeted ship cannot maintain a cyno. This drops the hotdrop bait issue and dosent create usless programing for CCP so they can work on things a bit more important like lag in large fights.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.05.16 07:59:00 - [137] Originally by: Drendel If the real issue is hotdrop's why not make it where a targeted ship cannot maintain a cyno. This drops the hotdrop bait issue and dosent create usless programing for CCP so they can work on things a bit more important like lag in large fights. That would be an interesting twist, that could actually work in a balanced way. But it doesn't make much sense for target lock to prevent cynos. Such a solution would mostly solve the solo cyno bait problem, requiring at least 2 people for successful ambush. Still, I like my idea of dedicated module better.
Merdaneth Amarr Angel Wing.	Posted - 2010.05.16 09:49:00 - [138] The only real issues with hotdrops are mentioned by Bomberlocks and Patrice Macmahon. They both mention the viral and gravitional effect of capital hotdrops. If the only feasible counter to a hotdrop is a bigger hotdrop, then you will (and must) get ever-increasing amount of hotdrops. Combined with a retreat of people that don't have (or don't like) to hotdrop, it will lead to monotone capital blobbing gameplay. A good game should offer several viable choices to counter a strategy, not one-choice-dominates-all-others. A good game should also make the viable choices available to its main player base. Hotdrops violate both good game principles (considering the average life span of an EVE player is 6 months and the only viable way to counter a hotdrop is a bigger hotdrop) ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Dalek Commander	Posted - 2010.05.16 11:08:00 - [139] Counter hotdrop with a bigger cap fleet.
Novantco The Tuskers The Tusker Bastards	Posted - 2010.05.16 14:21:00 - [140] Originally by: Dalek Commander Counter hotdrop with a bigger cap fleet. Lol.

Backho	Posted - 2010.05.17 12:30:00 - [141] Hello. In favor of balance, I introduce this module Mobile Cyno Jammer. Jams cyno jammers within 20km of a ship Requires "Mobile Cyno Jammer V" to use Skill multiplier (x24) [5-6 months for V] +2% effective range of mobile cyno jammers mobile cyno jammer skillbook costs 1,200,000,000 iskies and to build the module, it takes around 30,000,000 noxium, megacyte, and isogen with perfect skills. There you go. To balance years and billions of isk of effort to hot drop, the counter module requires years of training and billions of isk to use. Hence; balanced.
Sha4d13 Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.05.17 12:44:00 - [142] Surely if you;re hotdropped with caps, and you are in subcaps.... you run? Thats the alternative counter. Why do you need another? If you cant outrun a carrier with a subcap, then you are pretty bad at Eve. Of course, there might be one or two of you tackled by something, but then you have the option of trying to kill them, or not engaging... Its all about weighing up the risk and acting accordingly. Of course, in low sec you have the additional bonus of being able to jump through high sec gates if near them (to safety), or to dock at any old station. Sure- you have to de agg- but then those carriers dont lock instantly do they?
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.05.17 15:18:00 - [143] there is no issue. you can run, you can kill the cyno, you can kill tacklers or counter hotdrop; those are enough options. Noone hotdrops a single battleship out of boredom, you must have messed with wrong people and should die. Fact is, there is no other counter to well scouted gatecamps beyond hotdrop, so be just prepared because its the only way to remove your camp effectively.
Lil Mule	Posted - 2010.05.17 19:52:00 - [144] Could be the suggestion is already buried in the 5 pages you post whres have written but Ill toss this in as I think it makes more sense, and is more simple: When a cyno pops, and a cap jumps, each cap ship jumping through will arrive at X% distance to one another in LY's (not in KM's). Therefore you have a dispersion pattern across the solar system. Call it the innacuracy of using jump drives and the random possibilities generated by particle physics that results in such variances. This will achieve the results you are looking for and will make it fair. In that manner the Caps take a certain risk jumping in as they have to re-group. It also gives you the time needed to GTFO because they will be re-grouping. Mayhaps you might even tackle one of the juicy bstards and pop it. ----------------------------------------------- People enjoy flying Amarr for the same reason they like being tied up in leather, whipped and called names
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.05.17 22:18:00 - [145] Originally by: Lil Mule Could be the suggestion is already buried in the 5 pages you post whres have written but Ill toss this in as I think it makes more sense, and is more simple: When a cyno pops, and a cap jumps, each cap ship jumping through will arrive at X% distance to one another in LY's (not in KM's). Therefore you have a dispersion pattern across the solar system. Call it the innacuracy of using jump drives and the random possibilities generated by particle physics that results in such variances. This will achieve the results you are looking for and will make it fair. In that manner the Caps take a certain risk jumping in as they have to re-group. It also gives you the time needed to GTFO because they will be re-grouping. Mayhaps you might even tackle one of the juicy bstards and pop it. so how would you hotdrop camps if they could GTFO easily and return if you leave?
Muad' Dib Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2010.05.17 23:51:00 - [146] Originally by: Robert Caldera there is no issue. you can run, you can kill the cyno, you can kill tacklers or counter hotdrop; those are enough options. Noone hotdrops a single battleship out of boredom, you must have messed with wrong people and should die. Fact is, there is no other counter to well scouted gatecamps beyond hotdrop, so be just prepared because its the only way to remove your camp effectively. Hotdrops of single t1 cruisers with 2 moms have been happening since 2008. Ppl have been doing it for a very long time and boredom just like cost is never a good deterrent. --- I smack just for myself. Allow faction cap boosters to be traded via normal market !
Sha4d13 Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.05.18 08:21:00 - [147] Originally by: Robert Caldera there is no issue. you can run, you can kill the cyno, you can kill tacklers or counter hotdrop; those are enough options. Noone hotdrops a single battleship out of boredom, you must have messed with wrong people and should die. Fact is, there is no other counter to well scouted gatecamps beyond hotdrop, so be just prepared because its the only way to remove your camp effectively. This. Its just people whinging as usual, because hotdropping prevents their particular play style from being guaranteed safe and victorious. Notably, the OP has, I believe, been baiting and hotdropping of late- and got thoroughly counter hotdropped and shot to bits, the other night.
Muad' Dib Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2010.05.18 10:20:00 - [148] Originally by: Sha4d13 Originally by: Robert Caldera there is no issue. you can run, you can kill the cyno, you can kill tacklers or counter hotdrop; those are enough options. Noone hotdrops a single battleship out of boredom, you must have messed with wrong people and should die. Fact is, there is no other counter to well scouted gatecamps beyond hotdrop, so be just prepared because its the only way to remove your camp effectively. This. Its just people whinging as usual, because hotdropping prevents their particular play style from being guaranteed safe and victorious. Notably, the OP has, I believe, been baiting and hotdropping of late- and got thoroughly counter hotdropped and shot to bits, the other night. He made the thread 1.5 months ago, well before he tangled with CH and ADHD. Maybe it is in a way a whining motivated OP, but that doesn't mean that all of the sudden it has no value just because he lost a ship. More importantly the OP posted with his main, and said his opinion on the subject, something that many on the last page have failed to do so, including you. --- I smack just for myself. Allow faction cap boosters to be traded via normal market !
Sha4d13 Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.05.18 10:36:00 - [149] Ooohhh get her. Now- if you read carefully (there are people who can teach you such skills if you find that hard), I didn't suggest that the OP was in response to the recent incident. The point, of course, is that he too has found that hotdropping is a decent tactic, and that there is an effective counter... I'm intrigued at your bizarre suggestion that I have not set out my opinion on the subject. A suggestion which is plainly comlpete bobbins. As for posting with my main- what difference would it make to the opinion? Or to its validity? I've been playing since 2005, have been in many alliances, and have always made it a policy not to mix my views, with the views of my alliance (whichever it may be at the time) because it can cause unecessary friction. Thats a reasonable and appropriate position to take and in no way impacts upon or damages the validity of my comments. Its irrelevant to the point in issue. Your choosing to attack it clearly stems from your inability to logically challenge what I have said. Changing the subject and attacking something irrelevant is a cheap strategy, employed primarily by the intellectually deficient.
Lil Mule	Posted - 2010.05.18 13:44:00 - [150] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Lil Mule Could be the suggestion is already buried in the 5 pages you post whres have written but Ill toss this in as I think it makes more sense, and is more simple: When a cyno pops, and a cap jumps, each cap ship jumping through will arrive at X% distance to one another in LY's (not in KM's). Therefore you have a dispersion pattern across the solar system. Call it the innacuracy of using jump drives and the random possibilities generated by particle physics that results in such variances. This will achieve the results you are looking for and will make it fair. In that manner the Caps take a certain risk jumping in as they have to re-group. It also gives you the time needed to GTFO because they will be re-grouping. Mayhaps you might even tackle one of the juicy bstards and pop it. so how would you hotdrop camps if they could GTFO easily and return if you leave? I think the answer is - it would take some committment on the end of those hotdropping in order to hold the system, and stick with it if they really wanted to keep it free of attackers. If you hot drop in, and those in the system GTFO and leave, and you reform up, it gives you the advantage if they attempt now to do their own hot drop. Not only that but it serves to clear the system of the hostiles. What you're really saying I think in your post is "But that would prevent me from hotdroppping on a sub capital/mini-capital fleet and wtfpwning them with my hotdrop capital non-sense, and thus I cant get easy kills in low sec anymore" - which is exactly the point. ----------------------------------------------- People enjoy flying Amarr for the same reason they like being tied up in leather, whipped and called names

Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.05.18 14:41:00 - [151] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 18/05/2010 14:41:40 no, what I'm trying to say is there would be no effective counter for at least half brained gatecampers. Campers should not have the privilege of being allowed to be a pain in the ass, so hotdropping them is all fine, they're waiting for weak puppies to wtfpwn, so why should be a capital hotdrop on them not fair, it just reverses their own intentions.
killer chick Devious Decorum	Posted - 2010.05.19 01:14:00 - [152] Originally by: Sha4d13 Notably, the OP has, I believe, been baiting and hotdropping of late- and got thoroughly counter hotdropped and shot to bits, the other night. OP's alliance + russians were baiting in system with multiple carriers. Devious Decorum puts 2 carriers and a few BS off station. OP's alliance moves 3 carriers to engage and they put up multiple cynos. Russians and Roughnecks support fleet arrive with dreads. ADHD bring in more carriers followed by support fleet. Battle has escalated to its fullest. Then moms + more carriers enter the field for wtfpwnage. Counter drop successful. i think this example is the most effective ways of dealing with a hot drop. http://adhd.evekb.co.uk/?a=kill_related&kll_id=1429249 Originally by: Muad' Dib He made the thread 1.5 months ago, well before he tangled with CH and ADHD. Maybe it is in a way a whining motivated OP, but that doesn't mean that all of the sudden it has no value just because he lost a ship. OP made this thread because Roughnecks alliance can't stop the **** train that DVDC brought to their "home" system.
Hazel Starr Krypteia Brotherhood	Posted - 2010.05.19 13:04:00 - [153] Thank you Killer Chick for once again providing a fine illustration of the problem in operation. However try to seperate your ego from the discussion - this thread wasn't started about you but about an issue with low-sec play which has an inhibiting effect on the game. The huge flexibility that a responding fleet has in bringing support from all over EVE low-sec straight into an ongoing battle provides a huge disincentive for less powerful forces to engage in overt combat.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.05.19 13:11:00 - [154] Originally by: Hazel Starr The huge flexibility that a responding fleet has in bringing support from all over EVE low-sec straight into an ongoing battle provides a huge disincentive for less powerful forces to engage in overt combat. how is it limited to low-sec only? Yes, less powerful forces bite the dust more frequently, but whats wrong with that? Its all over eve that way and even beyond eve IRL.
tiviirulez	Posted - 2010.05.19 15:02:00 - [155] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Hazel Starr The huge flexibility that a responding fleet has in bringing support from all over EVE low-sec straight into an ongoing battle provides a huge disincentive for less powerful forces to engage in overt combat. Yes, less powerful forces bite the dust more frequently, but whats wrong with that? Its all over eve that way and even beyond eve IRL. No it is not. Discussion was about can you beam a batallion of special forces into a suburb street brawl by pushing a button on your mobile irl?
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.05.19 15:40:00 - [156] Originally by: killer chick ...i think this example is the most effective ways of dealing with a hot drop. http://adhd.evekb.co.uk/?a=kill_related&kll_id=1429249 Very impressive but as Hazel said, you are actually proving the point. The normal low-sec citizenry doesn't have Titan's ready to bridge or MoM's, Dreads and Carriers idling everywhere .. the entire "just counter hot-drop" argument falls flat for the vast majority of us. A 20-50km location shift from a cyno would have had zero effect on the outcome of a gank such as the one you linked nor will it have any noticeable effect when dropping in on a pirate camp that has been properly aggressed .. but it will severely hamper/discourage the random drops on anything cruiser sized and up. Personally I think the best way is to scale fuel consumption with sec. status of system jumped to. Would make it a costly affair to drop anything and everything and provide more traffic, as systems used as pit-stops would require large quantities of replacement fuel brought in when null decides to wave their spaghetti arms around on the other side of the cluster (provides intercept points to avert assaults as well). Let low-sec be the battleground where conventional's are the standard and let null keep their super-/capital blobs to themselves!
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.05.19 16:59:00 - [157] Originally by: tiviirulez Discussion was about can you beam a batallion of special forces into a suburb street brawl by pushing a button on your mobile irl? Go away with RL comparisons, they mostly suck. My IRL analogy was rather meant at a more abstract level, that larger blobs bash smaller blobs in EVE as IRL also! I know no reason why you should not be able to beam your forces to any random spot since there is jump drive tech available for that.
Muad' Dib Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2010.05.19 18:44:00 - [158] Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 19/05/2010 18:51:09 Originally by: killer chick Originally by: Sha4d13 Notably, the OP has, I believe, been baiting and hotdropping of late- and got thoroughly counter hotdropped and shot to bits, the other night. OP's alliance + russians were baiting in system with multiple carriers. Devious Decorum puts 2 carriers and a few BS off station. OP's alliance moves 3 carriers to engage and they put up multiple cynos. Russians and Roughnecks support fleet arrive with dreads. ADHD bring in more carriers followed by support fleet. Battle has escalated to its fullest. Then moms + more carriers enter the field for wtfpwnage. Counter drop successful. i think this example is the most effective ways of dealing with a hot drop. http://adhd.evekb.co.uk/?a=kill_related&kll_id=1429249 Originally by: Muad' Dib He made the thread 1.5 months ago, well before he tangled with CH and ADHD. Maybe it is in a way a whining motivated OP, but that doesn't mean that all of the sudden it has no value just because he lost a ship. OP made this thread because Roughnecks alliance can't stop the train that DVDC brought to their "home" system. OP thread started : Quote: Posted - 2010.04.02 02:00:00 Battle you linked : Quote: Battle in Aeschee (Essence), 16-05-2010 (20:11 - 21:59) So what, now the OP can travel back in time ? I'll give you a hint as to where you are placed in this NAPfest. :) ADHD was started by Invicta/ATHI, while Invicta might have done some soul-searching that culminated in the leaving of Tomski/danneh, and Dejah moving the corp into CH, ADHD is still part of Invicta's work - they still have CH alt corps in it. You are speaking for Invicta/Athi right now and you are doing it very badly. PS: I see they haven't kicked undisireable from Rough Necks yet. :) Originally by: Sha4d13 Ooohhh get her. Now- if you read carefully (there are people who can teach you such skills if you find that hard), I didn't suggest that the OP was in response to the recent incident. The point, of course, is that he too has found that hotdropping is a decent tactic, and that there is an effective counter... I'm intrigued at your bizarre suggestion that I have not set out my opinion on the subject. A suggestion which is plainly comlpete bobbins. As for posting with my main- what difference would it make to the opinion? Or to its validity? I've been playing since 2005, have been in many alliances, and have always made it a policy not to mix my views, with the views of my alliance (whichever it may be at the time) because it can cause unecessary friction. Thats a reasonable and appropriate position to take and in no way impacts upon or damages the validity of my comments. Its irrelevant to the point in issue. Your choosing to attack it clearly stems from your inability to logically challenge what I have said. Changing the subject and attacking something irrelevant is a cheap strategy, employed primarily by the intellectually deficient. I'd reply to your post, but i really can't. Your rationalizing is perfect in describing why alt posts should be ignored in a thread, you beat me to it. :( PS: English is not so good, so sorry for that - it's not my 1st language, as is probably for you - judging by your grammar problems. --- I smack just for myself. Allow faction cap boosters to be traded via normal market !
Muad' Dib Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2010.05.19 19:27:00 - [159] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: tiviirulez Discussion was about can you beam a batallion of special forces into a suburb street brawl by pushing a button on your mobile irl? Go away with RL comparisons, they mostly suck. My IRL analogy was rather meant at a more abstract level, that larger blobs bash smaller blobs in EVE as IRL also! I know no reason why you should not be able to beam your forces to any random spot since there is jump drive tech available for that. I dont't think he realized how stupid his RL comparison really is. :) --- I smack just for myself. Allow faction cap boosters to be traded via normal market !
JASON W0RTHING Nomad LLP Wayfarer Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2010.05.19 22:38:00 - [160] Originally by: tiviirulez No it is not. Discussion was about can you beam a batallion of special forces into a suburb street brawl by pushing a button on your mobile irl? Yes. Originally by: CCP Shadow What is thy bidd -- Wait. This thread, I have an irresistible urge to lock it for "being related to neither crime nor punishment."

Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.05.19 23:08:00 - [161] Originally by: JASON W0RTHING Originally by: tiviirulez No it is not. Discussion was about can you beam a batallion of special forces into a suburb street brawl by pushing a button on your mobile irl? Yes. The analogy would be more accurate if instead of battalion you beamed down a couple aircraft carriers to the street fight.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.05.19 23:31:00 - [162] Originally by: Ephemeron Yes. The analogy would be more accurate if instead of battalion you beamed down a couple aircraft carriers to the street fight. yes, because pushing navy cruisers and battleships through streets is more realistic.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.05.20 00:06:00 - [163] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Ephemeron Yes. The analogy would be more accurate if instead of battalion you beamed down a couple aircraft carriers to the street fight. yes, because pushing navy cruisers and battleships through streets is more realistic. Okay lets say a couple rednecks are fishing at a lake and start fighting over a tangled fishing line. Then one of them pressed a button and 2 fighter carriers drop into the lake
Dlardrageth ANZAC ALLIANCE IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.20 06:10:00 - [164] Edited by: Dlardrageth on 20/05/2010 06:10:26 Originally by: Ephemeron Okay lets say a couple rednecks are fishing at a lake and start fighting over a tangled fishing line. Then one of them pressed a button and 2 fighter carriers drop into the lake You must know some redneck billionaires in RL then. Ofc, if hotdrops in low-sec are such a nuisance and drama factor, lobbying instead for a system cyno jammer (POS module) that works in low-sec might be too easy a solution...
Sha4d13 Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.05.20 09:57:00 - [165] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Very impressive but as Hazel said, you are actually proving the point. The normal low-sec citizenry doesn't have Titan's ready to bridge or MoM's, Dreads and Carriers idling everywhere .. the entire "just counter hot-drop" argument falls flat for the vast majority of us. The normal low-sec pirate gank victim doesn't have the backup or the scouting network to catch / retaliate / defend himself against a well run pirate gate camp either. Do you see? These people want to gank without risk.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.05.20 10:21:00 - [166] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 20/05/2010 10:27:26 Basically, (capital) hotdrops do the same thing to lowsec campers, what campers do to travelers, passing through lowsec. Simple thing. A bigger fish eats the smaller one -> all fine with this.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.05.20 11:37:00 - [167] Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 20/05/2010 11:40:30 Originally by: Dlardrageth Ofc, if hotdrops in low-sec are such a nuisance and drama factor, lobbying instead for a system cyno jammer (POS module) that works in low-sec might be too easy a solution... Would disrupt cross-cluster traffic to no end and I doubt the Empires would stand for it. The one thing that keeps jammers tolerable in null is availability of bridges, so you would need those as well .. not a sound plan Originally by: Sha4d13 These people want to gank without risk. And what of those who Titan bridge and drop MoMs/Carriers onto anything that moves within drop range? How is that nooblet PvP any better than the lame campers? At least the campers are visible and lit up like a red light district for all to see .. Originally by: Robert Caldera Basically, (capital) hotdrops do the same thing to lowsec campers, what campers do to travelers, passing through lowsec. Simple thing. A bigger fish eats the smaller one -> all fine with this. Fish analogies, this thread is getting weirder and weirder But OK I'll play: Where are the coral reefs and plants for the small fish to use as cover against the big fish?
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.05.20 12:33:00 - [168] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida But OK I'll play: Where are the coral reefs and plants for the small fish to use as cover against the big fish? mh.. nowhere?? You should accept the omnipresent possibility of a bigger fish. Except for station and POS bubbles. Even in high sec you can be overwhelmed by a larger blob of people since the numbers arent limited in any manner.
irion felpamy Minmatar HellJumpers Corp Indecisive Certainty	Posted - 2010.05.20 13:23:00 - [169] I think we should add a high slot module to counter cynos. Basicly you fit them to your high slots and activate them on the ship that has activated a cyno, this new module reduced the current HP of the target ship incrementaly untill it is disabled or the ship is destroyed. Mutiple modules would increase the speed at which the cyno ships HP is reduced. Once the ship is destroyed the cyno disappears Maybe we could add multiple different types with different ranges and give them bonuses when fitted to certain ships.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.05.20 13:26:00 - [170] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 20/05/2010 13:26:41 Originally by: irion felpamy I think we should add a high slot module to counter cynos. Basicly you fit them to your high slots and activate them on the ship that has activated a cyno, this new module reduced the current HP of the target ship incrementaly untill it is disabled or the ship is destroyed. Mutiple modules would increase the speed at which the cyno ships HP is reduced. Once the ship is destroyed the cyno disappears Maybe we could add multiple different types with different ranges and give them bonuses when fitted to certain ships. you still didnt provide viable reasons for a cyno nerf.

AFK Cloaker Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.05.20 13:30:00 - [171] Originally by: irion felpamy I think we should add a high slot module to counter cynos. Basicly you fit them to your high slots and activate them on the ship that has activated a cyno, this new module reduced the current HP of the target ship incrementaly untill it is disabled or the ship is destroyed. Mutiple modules would increase the speed at which the cyno ships HP is reduced. Once the ship is destroyed the cyno disappears Maybe we could add multiple different types with different ranges and give them bonuses when fitted to certain ships. +1 interwebz for you sir.
Sir Fourhead Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.05.20 13:51:00 - [172] Originally by: irion felpamy I think we should add a high slot module to counter cynos. Basicly you fit them to your high slots and activate them on the ship that has activated a cyno, this new module reduced the current HP of the target ship incrementaly untill it is disabled or the ship is destroyed. Mutiple modules would increase the speed at which the cyno ships HP is reduced. Once the ship is destroyed the cyno disappears Maybe we could add multiple different types with different ranges and give them bonuses when fitted to certain ships. Best post. Please pardon the prissy overtones that will be found throughout this letter, but the reservoir from which CCP draws its lickspittles is primarily the masses of revolting enemies of the people.
tiviirulez	Posted - 2010.05.20 13:55:00 - [173] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: tiviirulez Discussion was about can you beam a batallion of special forces into a suburb street brawl by pushing a button on your mobile irl? Go away with RL comparisons, they mostly suck. My IRL analogy was rather meant at a more abstract level, that larger blobs bash smaller blobs in EVE as IRL also! I know no reason why you should not be able to beam your forces to any random spot since there is jump drive tech available for that. Why do you come up with rl comparisons then? bigger fish smaller fish? At "a more abstract" level your statement has no ground at all. What is force? Is it always correlated to size or numbers? Why does paper beat scissors? Vietnam? The cynofield is supposed to be a beacon to move up to over 2 million tons over distances of several lightyears (!) with what accuracy? 15km? The whole thing fits almost on a shuttle and works instantly?
irion felpamy Minmatar HellJumpers Corp Indecisive Certainty	Posted - 2010.05.20 13:58:00 - [174] Originally by: tiviirulez Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: tiviirulez Discussion was about can you beam a batallion of special forces into a suburb street brawl by pushing a button on your mobile irl? Go away with RL comparisons, they mostly suck. My IRL analogy was rather meant at a more abstract level, that larger blobs bash smaller blobs in EVE as IRL also! I know no reason why you should not be able to beam your forces to any random spot since there is jump drive tech available for that. Why do you come up with rl comparisons then? bigger fish smaller fish? At "a more abstract" level your statement has no ground at all. What is force? Is it always correlated to size or numbers? Why does paper beat scissors? Vietnam? The cynofield is supposed to be a beacon to move up to over 2 million tons over distances of several lightyears (!) with what accuracy? 15km? The whole thing fits almost on a shuttle and works instantly? If by almost you mean appart from no highslot or fittings and insufficent cargo space to actually fuel it then sure.
Sir Fourhead Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.05.20 14:01:00 - [175] Originally by: tiviirulez The cynofield is supposed to be a beacon to move up to over 2 million tons over distances of several lightyears (!) with what accuracy? 15km? The whole thing fits almost on a shuttle and works instantly? spoilers: the cyno doesn't do any part of the moving, it just produces a target for jump drives to lock onto Please pardon the prissy overtones that will be found throughout this letter, but the reservoir from which CCP draws its lickspittles is primarily the masses of revolting enemies of the people.
tiviirulez	Posted - 2010.05.20 14:43:00 - [176] Originally by: Sir Fourhead Originally by: tiviirulez The cynofield is supposed to be a beacon to move up to over 2 million tons over distances of several lightyears (!) with what accuracy? 15km? The whole thing fits almost on a shuttle and works instantly? spoilers: the cyno doesn't do any part of the moving, it just produces a target for jump drives to lock onto Say what. But surely there is some sort of communication between cyno and bridge and a not tiny calculation involved in such a feat.
Sir Fourhead Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.05.20 15:22:00 - [177] Originally by: tiviirulez Originally by: Sir Fourhead Originally by: tiviirulez The cynofield is supposed to be a beacon to move up to over 2 million tons over distances of several lightyears (!) with what accuracy? 15km? The whole thing fits almost on a shuttle and works instantly? spoilers: the cyno doesn't do any part of the moving, it just produces a target for jump drives to lock onto Say what. But surely there is some sort of communication between cyno and bridge and a not tiny calculation involved in such a feat. wiki Please pardon the prissy overtones that will be found throughout this letter, but the reservoir from which CCP draws its lickspittles is primarily the masses of revolting enemies of the people.
Doctor Ungabungas Caldari GoonWaffe SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO	Posted - 2010.05.20 16:50:00 - [178] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida But OK I'll play: Where are the coral reefs and plants for the small fish to use as cover against the big fish? They're in high sec.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.05.20 17:29:00 - [179] I don't see any good arguments why we SHOULDN'T have a short range cyno jammer. As far as mainstream fleet battles go, it would have very little impact, since multiple people are involved, they can find a place to activate cyno away from the jammer ships. For bait and drop tactics, you'd just need 2 people on the scene instead of 1. Again no problem for anyone who's putting some effort into setting up a trap. The only people who will be most annoyed by this are the bored cap pilots that just want to bait and drop somebody with minimum effort. Why shouldn't be such a module? it increases complexity of the battlefield, allowing creation of new strategies on both sides. Sounds like fun
Cameron Freerunner	Posted - 2010.05.20 17:54:00 - [180] Originally by: Ephemeron I don't see any good arguments why we SHOULDN'T have a short range cyno jammer. There have been many. Just none you choose to acknowledge or with which you agree. For whatever reason, you choose to completely ignore the many, many methods for avoiding a hotdrop. Refusing to employ any of those methods is not an argument FOR adding such a module. You talk about adding complexity, but this module would reduce it. It would save all the necessary scout and intel work that should be employed in anti-hotdrop tactics and fleet warfare in general. It seems to come down to a desire to limit the battlespace to whatever grid you are currently on. You also seem to be one of the few people having any issues with it. The vast majority of EVE seems to be getting along just fine. The quote above is a pretty good indicator that this thread is now pointless.

Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.05.20 18:02:00 - [181] a bunch of people not liking being hotdropped but still no real argument for a cyno nerf there.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.05.20 18:14:00 - [182] Originally by: Cameron Freerunner Originally by: Ephemeron I don't see any good arguments why we SHOULDN'T have a short range cyno jammer. There have been many. Just none you choose to acknowledge or with which you agree. For whatever reason, you choose to completely ignore the many, many methods for avoiding a hotdrop. Refusing to employ any of those methods is not an argument FOR adding such a module. Having alternatives is not a good reason for disallowing short range cyno jammer. I'm sorry but this reasoning doesn't qualify as good. That's like saying, apples shouldn't exist because if you like fruits you can have oranges, mangoes, cherries, and bananas. Originally by: Cameron Freerunner You talk about adding complexity, but this module would reduce it. It would save all the necessary scout and intel work that should be employed in anti-hotdrop tactics and fleet warfare in general. It seems to come down to a desire to limit the battlespace to whatever grid you are currently on. You also seem to be one of the few people having any issues with it. Again, invalid reasoning. The short range cyno jammer complicates the battlefield by its mere existence. As it is a new variable, and all variables have to be accounted for when planning strategies. It doesn't get any more fundamental than that. There are higher level complications, if you aren't satisfied with fundamentals. The defender has to choose whether to fit the cyno jammer or not, sacrificing a high slot, thus reducing battle effectiveness. Defender has to choose when to activate such a module, as he never knows for sure whether the attacker plans to use cyno or not. I'm sure activation will have some penalties. Things get complicated for the attacker, as the defender has no idea whether cyno will be used, the attacker has no idea whether a cyno jammer is used. Both sides are at equal disadvantage on information. Attacker has to plan for at least 2 scenarios, as opposed to one: plan of action of there is no cyno jammer, and plan of action if there is a cyno jammer. More advanced strategy would be to try maximize tackle and drop effectiveness by employing at least 2 people, where 1 proceeds by the plan that there is no cyno jammer, and other proceeds by the plan that there is cyno jammer. These are high level complexities. Originally by: Cameron Freerunner The vast majority of EVE seems to be getting along just fine. Likewise, the vast majority of EVE was getting along just fine before caps were introduced to the game. It is silly to use that kind of argument, tho technically it is valid.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.05.20 18:27:00 - [183] so you dont believe such a jammer, effectively preventing the only method for removing camps, would not be a mandatory part in campers toolbox? What a ****head are you?
Xtover Amarr	Posted - 2010.05.20 18:57:00 - [184] In low sec, a fair fight goes horribly wrong.... scout reports single recon jumping through gate. 8 man BC/BS gang get ready, the dram gets ready to tackle. recon jumps through, holds cloak, decloaks then locks a couple of the BSs the 8 BC/BS engage the single recon. recon pops cyno, 12 bombers jump through and chew through the gate camp. wait, who is being unfair here?
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.05.20 18:57:00 - [185] Edited by: Ephemeron on 20/05/2010 19:00:42 Originally by: Robert Caldera so you dont believe such a jammer, effectively preventing the only method for removing camps, would not be a mandatory part in campers toolbox? What a ****head are you? Only the most lazy and dim witted would fail in light of this simple counter. I suggest looking into possibility of 2 people. One bait, one cyno. Can you connect the dots? If not, you deserve to fail. For sake of good game design, I would be willing to make exception for Covert Cynos - make them unjammable. That should go for system jammers too. It's the general purpose cynos that are currently running unrestrained, that need something to reign them in.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.05.20 19:12:00 - [186] rofl and no, campers are not as bright as they would just cynojam their camp permanently with a dedicated ship only for that only purpose? Why am I actually argueing with such a noob like you?
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.05.20 19:23:00 - [187] Originally by: Robert Caldera rofl and no, campers are not as bright as they would just cynojam their camp permanently with a dedicated ship only for that only purpose? Why am I actually argueing with such a noob like you? It would be more appropriate for me to ask that 2nd question. The answer is simple - just bored. In case you have forgotten, the mobile cyno jammer is short range. Probably 25km radius. That means you can have a 2nd person warp in at 30-50 km from the gate and light the cyno, and have the drop before they can react. Yes, hot dropping against a well prepared and organized opponent will no longer be a no brainer. As much as you hate those lowly gate camping pirates, if they are better than you, they deserve to win.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.05.20 19:53:00 - [188] I dont see a reason why hotdropping camps should be made more complicated and less effective. There is simply no reason.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.05.20 20:41:00 - [189] I recommend reading the first 2 posts again.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.05.20 21:06:00 - [190] I dont see an issue. Kill easyly, get killed easily its all fine.

Crazy KSK	Posted - 2010.05.20 22:34:00 - [191] ok I didn't read all 7 pages now but I also want to contribute something to this topic I also do live in low sec and a fight with hot drop usually looks like this: a bunch of people come in the system start to camp the most populated station quickly a fleet is formed to get rid of the camping force both fleets engage and warp scramble each other and then the enemy fleet lights a cyno and brings in a carrier which quickly kills the defenders while they cant warp nor dock due to the aggression timer then the carrier cynos out again or waits out the station aggression time and docks up you could say now 'well bring own caps and kill it while it can't dock' you need a lot of siege dread for that (which the smal corp/alliance probably doesn't have) and if you can bring them and do it will probably result in more capitals being dropped by the enemy which will then destroy all of the siege dreads so no one ever does that in the first place you could bring a carrier at the very first but that would result in the enemy brining more caps and they usually pick out those corps\alliances that don't have much carriers (saying now HTFU and stay out of lowsec if you cant handle is maybe true but it would make low sec obsolete) if now there was 30km cyno jamer the camping gang probably wouldn't light a cyno in the first place as the carrier would make itself unable to dock and thus vulnerable to a lot less ships and even BS because they could destroy it then not attacking at first results in the main station or even system being shut down for a whole day or even longer actually there is a easier way just make a 10km radius around low sec station's undock radius in wich cynos cant be lit but that would have other negatives....but I think those can be avoided by watching local and using a save spot to light the cyno at so i hope i hit the thread starters point Crazy ~o~
ImAPostingAlt Amarr	Posted - 2010.05.21 04:00:00 - [192] Edited by: ImAPostingAlt on 21/05/2010 04:01:16 Originally by: Crazy KSK ok I didn't read all 7 pages now but I also want to contribute something to this topic I also do live in low sec and a fight with hot drop usually looks like this: a bunch of people come in the system start to camp the most populated station quickly a fleet is formed to get rid of the camping force both fleets engage and warp scramble each other and then the enemy fleet lights a cyno and brings in a carrier which quickly kills the defenders while they cant warp nor dock due to the aggression timer OK. 1) A single carrier puts out less DPS than a decent fit battleship and can be easily coutered with a smartbomb. 2) Each capital rep is equivalent to a sinlge logistics ship(normally a max of 2 unless it's a triage fit, in which case you've been outplayed although triage carriers are easy to counter drop) then the carrier cynos out again or waits out the station aggression time and docks up you could say now 'well bring own caps and kill it while it can't dock' you need a lot of siege dread for that (which the smal corp/alliance probably doesn't have) *A single carrier can be killed with as few as 5 sieged dreads before it can dock* and if you can bring them and do it will probably result in more capitals being dropped by the enemy which will then destroy all of the siege dreads so no one ever does that in the first place you could bring a carrier at the very first but that would result in the enemy brining more caps and they usually pick out those corps\alliances that don't have much carriers (saying now HTFU and stay out of lowsec if you cant handle is maybe true but it would make low sec obsolete) if now there was 30km cyno jamer the camping gang probably wouldn't light a cyno in the first place as the carrier would make itself unable to dock and thus vulnerable to a lot less ships and even BS because they could destroy it then ( not true most large stations have massive docking radius and the carrier could cyno within rep range/drone range and wihtin docking range while being outside of the range of your cyno jammer) not attacking at first results in the main station or even system being shut down for a whole day or even longer actually there is a easier way just make a 10km radius around low sec station's undock radius in wich cynos cant be lit but that would have other negatives....but I think those can be avoided by watching local and using a save spot to light the cyno at (this option would make anybody trying to move a caps life through lowsec 100x harder. Its dangerous enough lighting cynos at a POS(guess where I light all the cynos for my Nyx at). Theres enough of an issue with moms solo ganking at POSes and cynos at safes are asking for some jackass to tackle you before you warp.) so i hope i hit the thread starters point Crazy ~o~ Edit: They really should add a preview button to these forums. Edited to make replies easier to find.
Cyrus Doul Cosmic Vacum Cleaners	Posted - 2010.05.21 20:49:00 - [193] Originally by: Ephemeron Edited by: Ephemeron on 20/05/2010 19:00:42 Originally by: Robert Caldera so you dont believe such a jammer, effectively preventing the only method for removing camps, would not be a mandatory part in campers toolbox? What a ****head are you? Only the most lazy and dim witted would fail in light of this simple counter. I suggest looking into possibility of 2 people. One bait, one cyno. Can you connect the dots? If not, you deserve to fail. For sake of good game design, I would be willing to make exception for Covert Cynos - make them unjammable. That should go for system jammers too. It's the general purpose cynos that are currently running unrestrained, that need something to reign them in. This already happens with the system cyno jammers on pos. you cant normal cyno.but you can still cov ops cyno
Untan Minmatar League of Gentlemen	Posted - 2010.05.21 22:37:00 - [194] Bring back the electro effect of the capital jump, i miss that effect personally. It was so awsome
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.05.22 09:36:00 - [195] Originally by: Robert Caldera I dont see a reason why hotdropping camps should be made more complicated and less effective. There is simply no reason. I see your arguments are still made from the infinitely flawed assumption that capitals are only used against BS heavy gate camps .. you expect the rest of us to wait for reality to catch up to you or continue without you entirely? More complicated? That implies that it is complicated now which is stretching the truth just a tad. Unless of course you only count the numerous occasions where a 1-2 carrier drop is done by a single player multi-boxing - that is an indication as to how easy it is though not the other way around. And less effective? Provided a carrier isn't using 'conventional' RR modules it is just as effective at 30km as it is at 0km .. the only thing that would change is carriers ability to neut/point from the get go which is hardly a major game breaker. I am still not convinced that a cyno displacer will have any effect at all, certainly not the desired one. With capital numbers going up daily the problems they cause in low-sec are going to get a lot worse. Between nodes not being re-inforcable (fights are usually impromptu anyway) and no way of removing unwanted neutral OV entries, I fear low-sec will degenerate even further in the years to come. Keep their power but make pilots pay - multiply all fuel consumption (jump, cyno, triage) based on security of system and using conventionals will suddenly become an attractive alternative to dropping a bunch of capitals just because one can.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.05.22 23:27:00 - [196] Edited by: Ephemeron on 22/05/2010 23:28:15 Quote: I am still not convinced that a cyno displacer will have any effect at all, certainly not the desired one. I think the idea of cyno displacer is a bad one. As you guessed it would have little useful effect and just make things really weird for jumping ships. Cyno jammer is the way to go. Cyno jammer would not prevent people from lighting a cyno beacon. It would prevent all the caps from jumping to it. So when they select the "jump to" command, they would get error - while cyno jammer is active and in range.
FT Diomedes Gallente The Fimbriani Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2010.05.23 01:12:00 - [197] Originally by: Ephemeron Edited by: Ephemeron on 22/05/2010 23:28:15 Quote: I am still not convinced that a cyno displacer will have any effect at all, certainly not the desired one. I think the idea of cyno displacer is a bad one. As you guessed it would have little useful effect and just make things really weird for jumping ships. Cyno jammer is the way to go. Cyno jammer would not prevent people from lighting a cyno beacon. It would prevent all the caps from jumping to it. So when they select the "jump to" command, they would get error - while cyno jammer is active and in range. I don't understand. Why wouldn't every competent FC have one of these with his fleet at all times? Eve is supposed to be about risks. If some asshat thinks it's funny to try to gank my cyno Kestrel with his Abaddon, he should be afraid that I am going to drop two supercarriers on him because I think it is funny. If someone wants to sit on a gate in Tama with a smartbombing supercarrier and obliterate auto-piloting noobs, he shouldn't be immune to my hotdrop because he was one of your stupid modules on his alt. --- This doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.05.23 05:01:00 - [198] Originally by: FT Diomedes I don't understand. Why wouldn't every competent FC have one of these with his fleet at all times? They would have it. Just as they have at least several cyno carrying ships. I believe that's the idea - the mobile cyno jammer will become a new tool in strategy planning. Originally by: FT Diomedes Eve is supposed to be about risks. If some asshat thinks it's funny to try to gank my cyno Kestrel with his Abaddon, he should be afraid that I am going to drop two supercarriers on him because I think it is funny. But in that case it is balanced already - you can cyno you ships with cheap disposable kestrels on an alt char. It costs you almost nothing, and thus the risk for killing it should also be almost nothing. Besides, if that Abaddon you mentioned decides to equip with a cyno jammer, he will be sacrificing one of his guns or heavy neuts - which is going to cost him when real fighting starts. Originally by: FT Diomedes If someone wants to sit on a gate in Tama with a smartbombing supercarrier and obliterate auto-piloting noobs, he shouldn't be immune to my hotdrop because he was one of your stupid modules on his alt. And indeed he won't be. As the cyno jammer will be limited range and you can still hot drop him all you want by lighting a cyno just 30km from him. It won't make much of a difference if you properly setup the trap. Originally by: FT Diomedes A hotdrop ois the one method of attacking from over the horizon we have in Eve. Leave it alone. Unpredictability is fun. Unfortunately, too much unpredictability ruins the fun as well, as it makes clever strategy planning less important than making wild gambles. I'd never propose something that completely removes random factors, or diminishes them to point of insignificance. I just want things to be more balanced, that's all.
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb Nostradamus Effect	Posted - 2010.05.23 11:33:00 - [199] There are some very good points made here... 1) You cannot scan or predict a cyno jump until it actually happens 2) There is no direct preventative measure (like there are Cyno Jammers in nullsec) 3) The indirect counter measure (kill the cyno ship) is extremely difficult Most things in EVE have a balance or counter measure, this does seem to work more in favour of those doing the drop.
FT Diomedes Gallente The Fimbriani Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2010.05.24 05:53:00 - [200] Originally by: Wacktopia Most things in EVE have a balance or counter measure, this does seem to work more in favour of those doing the drop. It works more in favor of the side that achieves surprise. Hotdropping adds an element of uncertainty that is good. If you want to sit on a gate and camp it, then you usually put out scouts so that you can see the enemy coming and be prepared to hit F1-F8 or GTFO. This effectively takes all the risk out of gate camping. It also makes the defense incredibly powerful. The ability of the enemy to appear suddenly, on top of you and with relatively little warning restores some of the balance to the offense in this game. Reading the comments in favor of limiting hotdropping, I am reminded of the frequent tear-soaked complaints about evil pirates appearing in mission deadspaces. The person doing the hotdropping is putting some extremely valuable assets on the line. If they start to hotdrop you, then your best bet is to prepare your counter-hotdrop. --- This doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne

Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.05.24 11:09:00 - [201] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida I see your arguments are still made from the infinitely flawed assumption that capitals are only used against BS heavy gate camps no, I didnt relate my statement to certain ship types, I'm just saying ship types involved dont matter absolutely. Originally by: Wacktopia 2) There is no direct preventative measure (like there are Cyno Jammers in nullsec) there is no direct preventative measure for enemy coming through a gate. Nerf gates.
debbie harrio	Posted - 2010.05.25 13:30:00 - [202] Originally by: Wacktopia There are some very good points made here... 1) You cannot scan or predict a cyno jump until it actually happens 2) There is no direct preventative measure (like there are Cyno Jammers in nullsec) 3) The indirect counter measure (kill the cyno ship) is extremely difficult Most things in EVE have a balance or counter measure, this does seem to work more in favour of those doing the drop. I just don't understand what the problem is here. if you can't kill the cyno ship to stop the hotdrop, warp out and safe up, what is the problem here. If you weren't such kill mail whres you would also have the opportunity of jumping the gate but no, everybody locks and fires on the lone drake, well fools you have just been suckered, hot drops rely on people being such killmail whres, you limit your escape possibilities by all engaging without a thought for what is happening. Learn to use tactics and maybe you would actually get the better of hotdrops.
eocsnesemaj Quiet.Storm Dead Terrorists	Posted - 2010.05.26 11:24:00 - [203] Originally by: Wacktopia 2) There is no direct preventative measure (like there are Cyno Jammers in nullsec) there is no direct preventative measure for enemy coming through a gate. Nerf gates. lulz Hot drops are good clean fun the whole family can enjoy http://tinyurl.com/EostSig
M3ta7h3ad Caldari Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.27 23:03:00 - [204] I'm unaware if there is the following suggestion in the previous 7 pages of posts however. A module that provides a ranged cyno-jamming field for a HIC is a great idea. Add a fuel cost of liquid ozone so that it isn't just an instant always on win button and that's a cracking suggestion, if it requires a little nerf then add the penalty of no movement when activated. Having warnings and a destroyable cyno field... thats where the OP's suggestions take a turn for the worse. ----- If you kill all the wolves, your gonna end up with a crapload of bunnies, and by bunnies I mean stupid people
Ruhige Schmerz Valhalla Naval Corp Black Nova Federation	Posted - 2010.05.28 16:34:00 - [205] There's no defense against a cyno, but there's a defense against having your fleet hot dropped. There's this amazing yet underutilized module called a "Ship Scanner" which is usable with minimal skills, and will show you the fittings on the other ship. If you use this module, you'll know if it's a cyno ship before getting aggression. That said, I'm in favor of altering the cyno mechanics significantly. Make them last 30 seconds and make the cyno not activate until the end of the cycle. Start of cycle, 'cyno opening' message / overview item. At the end of the cycle, the module deactivates, the cyno field itself goes up (for however long), and the cyno ship can GTFO or whatever it wants to do. Yes this would change cyno mechanics, obviously that is the point, but I think it would change them in ways that benefit everyone.
debbie harrio	Posted - 2010.05.29 11:46:00 - [206] Originally by: Ruhige Schmerz There's no defense against a cyno, but there's a defense against having your fleet hot dropped. There's this amazing yet underutilized module called a "Ship Scanner" which is usable with minimal skills, and will show you the fittings on the other ship. If you use this module, you'll know if it's a cyno ship before getting aggression. That said, I'm in favor of altering the cyno mechanics significantly. Make them last 30 seconds and make the cyno not activate until the end of the cycle. Start of cycle, 'cyno opening' message / overview item. At the end of the cycle, the module deactivates, the cyno field itself goes up (for however long), and the cyno ship can GTFO or whatever it wants to do. Yes this would change cyno mechanics, obviously that is the point, but I think it would change them in ways that benefit everyone. shakes head, your first suggestion is the answer, these uber km wh*res in the gate camp could drop a sensor booster to scan the lone drakes, they have enough fitted to lose one, if it has a cyno gen, don't engage, the second suggestion, well 30 seconds would clear the field, what would be the point of carriers, dreads etc, how could you trap SC's or titans outside pos's when they have 30 secs to slingshot them to safety, that would just absolutely break the game. The problem here is that bad PVPers want to carry on killing Noob's in their burst's and ospreys to bolster their killboard stats without risk, the hot drop on them is exactly the same as what they do to the aforementioned Noob's. Nothing to see here, move on please.
Fiachra Bourke Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.05.29 16:17:00 - [207] Haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if what I say has been said already. Being EVE the game that it is, every possible situation should have a counter. That counter should not be more of what the other side brought; that would only create more blobs that so many people don't like. While many big BS and cap fleets are needed in 0.0 for the sake of taking down all the big structures there, the big BS and cap fleets (in this case brought in by a cyno) should not be an instant win as is often happening in low sec. That is not to say that hot drops are unfair or just completely overpowered. If EVE were to operate based on fairness, I'm sure that there would only be a fraction of the player base. The problem is that outside of 0.0, there isn't really anything you can do but run away from a hot drop. There are many cases where the only reasonable option is to get out of dodge, such as when a group of 10 players come roaming through your current system while you are only with 2-3 buddies. This situation, while requiring an ounce of intelligence, can easily be countered by quickly warping to safes, and/or scouting the gang to see if you can actually go toe to toe with them. The problem with hot drops is not the unpredictability that comes with them, but also the speed with which they appear. This creates a deadly brew that, in the current system, has no counter. I believe that hot drops, while having at least some sort of counter in 0.0, should have some sort of counter in low sec as well. Maybe restrict only certain types of cyno fields in low sec so that 0.0 is unaffected. This way, there could be something that could counter low sec hot drops. I'm not recommending a 10 second warning or a complete jam on a cyno ship, that is ridiculous. Maybe there could be a high slot scanner that scans for ships with a cyno attached. Once the scan is completed, in x seconds, a window pops up listing the ships with cynos (similar to an asteroid scanner). This could give any FC in a small gang the ability to scan ships on the grid for a cyno and call a quick primary. Now, given the amount of time that this takes, it would not render hot drops ineffective by any means. A good hot drop gang could easily get ships onto the grid before the cyno ship is eliminated. Aside from the amount of time it takes to run the scanner, the FC would actually have to scan and then quickly yell in comms to call the target out. This would give the opposing players to realise there is a cyno on the ship before the player actually starts to use it. This means that it wouldn't be as easy as A-B-C to instantly hot drop a competent group of players; it would take some quick thinking and maneuvering to get into place to pop the cyno before going poof. Please keep in mind that I am incredibly new to EVE. Forgive me for any mistakes regarding game mechanics or anything like that!
Darek Castigatus Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel	Posted - 2010.05.29 23:25:00 - [208] thing is you have that exact thing already with the ship scanner module, with the added bonus of telling you the rest of the fit as well. The thing i think a lot of people dont realise is that hotdropping gets you a reputation for being hotdroppers, silly as that may sound it is an important thing to bear in mind. As an example I give an alliance that frequents amongst other places the low sec we live and roam in, Cry Havoc. They frequently hotdrop and we know they do, hence there is very little chance of us engaging them unless we have no choice at all or if we're damn sure they dont have cynos fitted (by damn sure i mean having ship scanned every ship they have to make sure of it). So the surprise factor is out the window straight away and all it leaves is another risk factor to bear in mind when deciding if an engagement is worth it or not. to put it more generally, its certainly possible that lone drake that just jumped into our gatecamp could drop a cyno and bring in his cap fleet to **** our faces(assuming his corp/alliance has enough skilled pilots to field one, that theyre all in range and all ready to jump), its also possible he dies in a fire while we laugh at his failfit or he has a competent fit, knows how to pvp and was just unlucky. That doesnt make the hotdrop or the cyno overpowered or in need of a new counter, especially considering the effort and cost corps or alliances have to go to to have it available as a tactic in the first place. Anyway i kinda feel like im rambling a bit now so ill leave it there. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php


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