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Dzil
Caldari
SafeHouse Investments of Tautology
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Posted - 2010.04.02 13:30:00 -
[1]
I approach with mixed feelings the recent policy change regarding stock/share/bond threads being repositioned onto the buy/sell forums.
Historically these have long been a large part of Market Discussions. The huge amount of trust involved with any public endeavor starkly contrasts the quick and concentrated format of a typical buy/sell/auction post that can be completed securely through contracts; Especially in an initial public offering. Interested parties like to discuss/debate the offering, the ability and character of the proposed CEO, and provide alternatives that might make a failing offering succeed.
In short, I think these ventures are much less likely to succeed. At least, to succeed here on the forums.
But, as mentioned, I have positive feelings about this as well. I think this also creates a huge opportunity to create a better medium for investors, offerings, secondary market trade, etc. With the official EVE forums intentionally gimping our ability to discuss offerings, I think many MD/investors will be looking for a better home for these discussions. Previously secondary market services were limited to providing a secure means to list and exchange stocks. Now perhaps included in these responsibilities is providing a forum for which new stocks can launch and seek out investors.
The added benefits of this are many: there is potential to link directly to the past performance of your offerings; or to buy/sell options integrated into said website. The pool of folks commenting on your offering could be better limited to just investors (folks signed up for the website with a minimal deposit); doing a better job of scrubbing out trolls that the EVE mod team could ever hope to due.
In summary, if you have something to add, or a secondary market exchange service that already caters to the above or plans to, please list it here. I believe the timing is ripe for this, too, to be come a player-managed aspect of EVE.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.04.02 14:05:00 -
[2]
I sent a mail to Navigator, hopefully we'll get a final response on the issue (and if it's not one we like we stand, arms crossed, screaming and stamping our feet until we get what we want).
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Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
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Posted - 2010.04.02 14:12:00 -
[3]
Or we just create our own forum, or update one of the stickies with a link to scrapheap and ask the guys there to make us a forum.
Market Alerts Mailing List
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Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
United Corporations Of Modern Eve
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Posted - 2010.04.02 14:14:00 -
[4]
Thank you for taking the time to do this, and I think I agree with you! The time has come to leave the Eve-O boards, and let the ******s sail in their own lake!
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Busy Bob
Busy Bob's Bonanza
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Posted - 2010.04.02 14:22:00 -
[5]
As if the Sell forums needed more threads. Constantly updated, bumped, ever shifting threads. If they're going to do this, the sell forums need sub-threads. |
Atima
Minmatar
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2010.04.02 14:25:00 -
[6]
I think its stupid. Give us a subsection if you really want but offerings do not BELONG in sell orders. Its ******ed, but then again moderation on these forums generally is.
Why change something that has always worked!?
ALSO THIS 5 MIN TIMER IS ****ING REDICULOUS
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.04.02 14:28:00 -
[7]
Hey, there's a lot of anger in here, what gives?
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Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2010.04.02 14:32:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: Ray McCormack
Hey, there's a lot of anger in here, what gives?
There's Ray! Let's get him!
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Atima
Minmatar
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2010.04.02 14:33:00 -
[9]
*sigh* The forums always have me in this mood. Especially when I write out a nice reply then post and YOU ARE GOING TO FAST!! happens.
This really ruins my day.
Also it will destroy public offerings forcing them to sell order forums. I'll campaign against that as much as I can.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.04.02 14:52:00 -
[10]
Again I must reiterate, and remind, people that historically "Market Discussion" is not the bastard child subforum to "Sell, Buy, Price Check" areas. Those areas were segregated to the side from this main forum area due to volume and the need for a consistent appropriately draconian moderation standard. A standard which at the time, and even now, is inapplicable to this forum. Again, this is fairly simple: The only people complaining about the common practices here are " concerned citizen trolls". Originally by: Urban Dictionary.Com
A person who posts on a blog thread, in the guise of "concern," to disrupt dialogue or undermine morale by pointing out that posters and/or the site may be getting themselves in trouble, usually with an authority or power. They point out problems that don't really exist. The intent is to derail, stifle, control, the dialogue. It is viewed as insincere and condescending.
In essence, trolls are creating a form of censorship and using CCP as the mechanism. This does no good to the "sandbox" method if you let soapbox lawyers derail every pertinent discussion with endless accusations. TBH if you allow this trend to continue essentially you create a litigious system to be abused, by the "unreasonables", that will stifle or smother any useful dialogue - amongst the "reasonables".
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
TornSoul
BIG
Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.04.02 15:40:00 -
[11]
Edited by: TornSoul on 02/04/2010 15:39:59
Originally by: Shar Tegral
<snip>
that will stifle or smother any useful dialogue - amongst the "reasonables".
It has happened already - As seen by the moved threads.
I frankly have no faith in the forum mods/policies coming to their senses in this regard (based on past experiences).
Sad.
BIG Lottery |
Brock Nelson
Caldari
Flux Technologies Inc
SRS.
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Posted - 2010.04.02 15:46:00 -
[12]
I got some mix feelings about the change in how MD discussion is being moderated. I do agree that MD should be purely about discussion, however the idea of having the stock/share/bond threads in the sell or buy forum is not the appropriate way to go.
I would go as far as suggesting that a sub-forum for those transaction (similar to plex and character sales forum). But is there really enough of those transaction going on to justify the creation of its own sub-forum?
Store | Get SRS |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.04.02 17:18:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Brock Nelson
But is there really enough of those transaction going on to justify the creation of its own sub-forum?
This is the key fundamental to the whole discussion. Market Discussion is a generic catch-all for anything not already well categorized. Anything that is not clearly, and blatantly, belonging to a specialized sub-forum belongs in the generic primary. Yes, we've all seen a few people try to be cute and slip on or two past the moderators/readers. Far better to have those occasional ones with assorted moderatings/warnings then to hyper define "Market Discussion" into obsolescence. For example: Brock would like the discussion to be more discussion. However by keeping things of high volume separate Brock can easily locate that which he prefers while overlooking, at his discretion, anything else that happens to be here. In essence, that's the purpose of a generic catch all category forum. It is simple good community and forum management practice. Why is this suddenly a problem?
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Brock Nelson
Caldari
Flux Technologies Inc
SRS.
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Posted - 2010.04.02 17:33:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Brock Nelson on 02/04/2010 17:33:12
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Why is this suddenly a problem?
It isn't, Ji brought it up when CCP ruffled his feather when they asked you to put your Guardian auction in the sell forum.
Store | Get SRS |
Xeoniya
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Posted - 2010.04.02 18:26:00 -
[15]
What if we were only talking about the possible implications of offering a bond or stock and not actually selling one? Then others happen to talk about possible purchasing of said stock or bond. No actual selling in those threads of course, just conversation.... :-)
Alternatively if we were to talk about whether some stock/bond ought to be offered, and whether is was likely just an offering would be a scam.
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Derek Morgan
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Posted - 2010.04.02 19:01:00 -
[16]
The weird part, at least for me, when you read the description for what the MD is for it states and trading stocks.
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Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
United Corporations Of Modern Eve
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Posted - 2010.04.02 19:06:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Derek Morgan
The weird part, at least for me, when you read the description for what the MD is for it states and trading stocks.
Oh Snap :)
Quote:
Share your tips for trade and commerce in EVE: playing the market, utilizing contracts, and trading stocks.
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Mahke
Aeon Of Strife
Discord.
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Posted - 2010.04.02 19:40:00 -
[18]
Wait, I thought this whole thing was an april fool's joke?
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Cista2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2010.04.02 20:18:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Mahke
Wait, I thought this whole thing was an april fool's joke?
I expect that now they have moved the market component out of MD, the next logical step will be to move the discussion component to General Discussion forum.
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Join "Signatures" channel - the chatroom for traders |
Phoebe Halliwel
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Posted - 2010.04.02 23:05:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Phoebe Halliwel on 02/04/2010 23:09:59
Might be an unpopular idea but, if the moderation persists, people could launch offerings with discussion and reservations on the same thread rather than separating the two. Not as easy for them to monitor granted, but a simple workaround. The minute mods move something where the OP states "please discuss" into a forum where discussion is impossible, there are clear grounds for escalation, and hopefully intervention from more senior mods. Looks like all you have to do is state "WTS or auction" somewhere so shouldn't be hard to create a few test cases.
Ed. nvm just saw
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Do you mind keeping bids to another thread in the sale order thread and then keep discussion here? Just cross link them for record keeping and it keeps MD free of auctions and Sell Order free of Discussion and everyone wins! \o/
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Alice Celadon
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Posted - 2010.04.03 00:34:00 -
[21]
I see a few people saying that the over-moderation isn't a problem, even after i was able to get the last clearly MD-related thread moved to Features and Ideas [I was actually shocked that it worked].
Zymurgist, Applebabe, et al. are clearly to lazy to do anything but comply with silly thread move requests. This is sad.
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Clb
The Intersect
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Posted - 2010.04.03 01:36:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Clb on 03/04/2010 01:38:56
Response : pastebin.org/131817
2nd para is interesting, the future is cross-posting.
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Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
United Corporations Of Modern Eve
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Posted - 2010.04.03 02:18:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Ji Sama on 03/04/2010 02:22:15
just proves that they have no idea what STOCK TRADE means. he should read the MD description!
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Alice Celadon
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Posted - 2010.04.03 03:15:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ji Sama
Edited by: Ji Sama on 03/04/2010 02:22:15
just proves that they have no idea what STOCK TRADE means. he should read the MD description!
All righty MD folks, you need to make a *utility* argument for bonds in MD, because you're FAILING HARD with the *grammar* argument.
"Share your tips for trade and commerce in EVE: playing the market, utilizing contracts, and trading stocks."
Share your tips for // trade and commerce = playing the market, utilizing contracts, and trading stocks.
To illustrate let's quote it thus, "Share your tips for...trading stocks." You don't really play the market or utilize contracts in MD, and according to the description, you don't trade stocks either -- just talk about trading.
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Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
United Corporations Of Modern Eve
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Posted - 2010.04.03 03:26:00 -
[25]
ah ha got you, we only talk about trading stocks in MD, we dont actually trade them :)
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Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.04.03 04:16:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Alice Celadon
Originally by: Ji Sama
Edited by: Ji Sama on 03/04/2010 02:22:15
just proves that they have no idea what STOCK TRADE means. he should read the MD description!
All righty MD folks, you need to make a *utility* argument for bonds in MD, because you're FAILING HARD with the *grammar* argument.
"Share your tips for trade and commerce in EVE: playing the market, utilizing contracts, and trading stocks."
Share your tips for // trade and commerce = playing the market, utilizing contracts, and trading stocks.
To illustrate let's quote it thus, "Share your tips for...trading stocks." You don't really play the market or utilize contracts in MD, and according to the description, you don't trade stocks either -- just talk about trading.
This is what I was getting ready to try and post, thanks for saving me the time.
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Clb
The Intersect
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Posted - 2010.04.03 06:24:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Alice Celadon
All righty MD folks, you need to make a *utility* argument for bonds in MD
The utility argument is basically that splitting up the discussion and the actual trading makes senseless cross-posting necessary. The 'compromise' is that you would need to create two threads; one in MD, one in Sell Orders.
Shares/bonds are substantially different from everything else sold in Sell Orders. A share on its own is useless, without a sound business model, thorough audit etc. A module I can check the stats in-game.
The problem with the SO forum is it not for discussion. Calling something out as a scam in SO is against the forum rules  . As is discussing the relative merits of a business plan, bringing up a person's history, flaming for not getting an audit and everything else that is required on MD.
The other side of this is that the mods have taken something that was working well and messed it up for no tangible reason other than needless bureaucracy  . Although lately I've been starting to think that they get paid per move/edit.
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ITSAssassin
Silentium Mortalitas
Mortal Destruction
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Posted - 2010.04.03 08:13:00 -
[28]
Hmmm, just curious why my IPO thread hasn't been moved to Sell Orders? I just recently (two days ago), sold a few shares to a new shareholder. TBH, moving IPO/Bond threads to Sell Orders has got to be the stupidest move I've seen mods make in a LONG time.
Community creates structure and order in business operation threads.... CCP strikes structure and community for OMGWTFBBQ dmg..... just fail
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Popping ships since 2007, and still popping ships today |
Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
United Corporations Of Modern Eve
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Posted - 2010.04.03 09:46:00 -
[29]
Well the loophole imo is that aslong as we dont use actually in game shares, we can sell bonds/shares here in MD
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Menkala
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Posted - 2010.04.03 14:13:00 -
[30]
However pointless this may be, let your opinion be heard. And viva le revolucion
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