Just remove mining and industry.
This is the fix.

or maybe remove stupid replies... next

You remove your stupid thread and I'll remove my stupid reply. Deal?

no

Dumb idea is dumb.

If we have Carriers that can carry an entire fleet/task force, as well as clones, in its bay, why can't we have a cyno-using ship that carries lots of regular stuff?

and if CCP just remove Jump Freigthers, the Industry and Mining in 0.0 would be fixed ?

Well this is good question.

We do know that people usually tend to use the method what is most convient and easiest to them.

Now lets think about tritanium. Why would you mine tritanium in 0.0 as it is cheap in hisec and relatively easy/safe to haul into nullsec? Actually why would you build anything else than caps in nullsec, because everything is so easy to haul from jita and people build all the other crap in hisec anyways.

I believe that the final solution is to make nullsec->(lowsec)->hisec hauling so risky that;

- People start building stuff in null rather than heading to jita (ccp needs to aid this by providing tools)
- People start mining even tritanium in nullsec because hauling it from hisec is lottery job.
- Price of high end minerals will rocket in hisec, because there is less hauling and stuff gets used in null also. Those who keep hauling get reward for their risk which is great. Price will climb also in 0.0 because supply drops while people are mining low end stuff also.
- Price of low end minerals will rocket in 0.0, because there is less hauling and stuff gets mined locally. This will lower low end mineral prices in hisec also, because demand will drop. Those who keep hauling get reward for their risk which is great.

... to be clear - this means that those freigters gonna start popping.
-> how to arrange this, well those who know better should do the planning. With my knowledge I would prolly add small change of gate malcunction which could throw freighter anywhere in the galaxy and deal with it .)
-> another jump bridge nerf for freighters?

As long high end minerals and low end minerals travel freely between null and high and null manufactures are lacking tools, there wont be real industry/tradecenters in null. Correct?

and if CCP just remove Jump Freigthers, the Industry and Mining in 0.0 would be fixed ?

The main problem with mining and industry in 0.0 on my point of view is that is easier to bring things from high sec to 0.0 then mine or build them in 0.0.

I'm pretty sure nobody out there does this, but why wouldn't it be a good idea to mine up a shitstorm out in nullsec so that you actually raise your local supply of minerals (most likely only the high end minerals) to well above what your demand can warrant? In other words, it shouldn't be that hard to produce more than you need, and thus make exporting high end minerals much more profitable than importing them from highsec, where the demand is fierce. It's that same demand that can make your alliance a fortune with all the arkanor out there in null.

Of course, if you know why this doesn't happen, please, do tell. The first thought to come to my mind is something along the lines of, "But the miners wouldn't stand a chance the moment an enemy gang roams through the belt." However, isn't that why every good alliance should have solid PvPers in it? A well protected industrial core, if orchestrated properly, would make industrializing a nullsec home (with a hefty amount of JF support for imports/exports) highly profitable for everyone, in theory.

Which leads me to believe that perhaps the reason is the difficulty in organizing such a thing. I'm not sure. Tell me. Am I missing something crucially important here (aside from the ****** corp/alliance organizational tools provided to us?)

If CCP remove Jump freighters, people will use Carriers full of industrials full of cans full of stuff.

Hauling stuff in is cheaper than building it locally, because mining and industry in 0.0 are fundamentally broken. The way to fix it is to fix mining and industry, not to break hauling too.

and if CCP just remove Jump Freigthers, the Industry and Mining in 0.0 would be fixed ?

The main problem with mining and industry in 0.0 on my point of view is that is easier to bring things from high sec to 0.0 then mine or build them in 0.0.

This:

Industrial Upgrades were supposed to provide extra resources to those who wanted to grind them - instead they provide beacons to enemy pilots who arrive and camp to eliminate any benefit gained.
Mining benefits of 0.0 space are neutralized by the lack of lower end ores in 0.0 and the supply of higher minerals from the drone regions/missions runners (reduced now).
Mining Ops in 0.0 require logistical and defensive support. Both the amount of isk/per hour per fleet member and the total amount of isk pulled in by a 20 man 0.0 mining op (12 hulks 1 orca 1 next system scout. 1-2 gate scouts. 4 pvp fitted hacs) is less than the amount of isk/per hour per fleet member and the total amount of isk pulled in by a 10 man empire fleet (9 hulks and 1 orca)
Limited station function: Refine or Manufacture means the logistics to large scale production are very vulnerable to enemy roams, spies and the vagaries of sov changes.
Research POS: Are low hanging fruit to competent roamers. Large pos are too expensive for the purpose of research. Small pos too weak to handle 30-40 medium range bcs/hacs with logistical support.

-Able to tank nullsec belt rats
- Faster align time, smaller sig radius (counterbalanced most likely with smaller cargo space)
- Larger drone bay
- Doesn't mine as fast as a hulk (to keep them from replacing the more highsec friendly Hulk.)

3,561,896,679 Tritanium
864,647,581 Pyerite
295,917,191 Mexallon
51,715,806 Isogen
14,433,486 Nocxium
2,603,576 Zydrine
1,279,018 Megacyte

because it's ****** up industry and mining in null sec

At the same this will leave smaller alliances and even corporations out in the cold.

7) Too many of the low-end materials available in high-sec. Too much of the high-ends come out of WH's/drone regions.

6) The big alliances have massive taxing on ore refining. Too hard to jump the raw out for processing unless you have a Rorqual.

Ok, here's how industry and mining work between high sec and nullsec. We mine high grades and export to highsec to sell in order to buy lowgrades that we compress and import. At least that's how it used to work until the Russians started botting the drones, now they export obscene amounts of highgrades, making the risk/reward ratio for the average nullsec miner completely worthless. Just so you know if the Russians weren't providing so much of the high end minerals the cost of a unit of mega would probably be somewhere around 5k isk per unit instead of 2. As a ship builder, thank god for the russians. Seriously I love you guys for that, having 10k supers, not so much. Anyway, you want to stop the import/export cycle by removing JFs. Well, here's what would happen, mega, zyd, and morphite prices would skyrocket, most likely doubling, maybe tripling. All modules and ship prices would skyrocket in turn, everyone would be ******. Highsec relies on null for high end minerals, and nullsec relies on highsec for low grades. But lets take a look at what would happen if null and high sec broke off like most of you want (not necessarily due to JF removal, though that would shoot mineral prices through the roof).
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Research POS: Are low hanging fruit to competent roamers. Large pos are too expensive for the purpose of research. Small pos too weak to handle 30-40 medium range bcs/hacs with logistical support.

Then titans just bridge conventional freighters, orcas, or haulers. I suppose you need to remove titan bridges and maybe jump bridges too.

Hulks can.
Align to.
No point.
No, needs to be better than the Hulks. 0.0 is dangerous to mine. Want it done fast so you can gtfo.

All reasonable ideas but the ship is not the problem.

Please. You realize that more covetors are lost in wormholes because the increased danger of mining in there pushes pilots with a clue into flying covetors to minimize the cost of the expected losses, right? Most people mine with covetors so they can afford the expected losses. Not only that, you can't get a hulk into a C1 and out again. Besides, with nothing but the rare grav spawn to mine, it's a few days a month with long dry spells without any rocks at all. You can't blame wormholes for any ABC problems when that grav site only gave us 15K and it never replenishes.

[quote=Princess Cellestia]Ok, here's how industry and mining work between high sec and nullsec. We mine high grades and export to highsec to sell in order to buy lowgrades that we compress and import. At least that's how it used to work until the Russians started botting the drones, now they export obscene amounts of highgrades, making the risk/reward ratio for the average nullsec miner completely worthless. Just so you know if the Russians weren't providing so much of the high end minerals the cost of a unit of mega would probably be somewhere around 5k isk per unit instead of 2. As a ship builder, thank god for the russians. Seriously I love you guys for that, having 10k supers, not so much. Anyway, you want to stop the import/export cycle by removing JFs. Well, here's what would happen, mega, zyd, and morphite prices would skyrocket, most likely doubling, maybe tripling. All modules and ship prices would skyrocket in turn, everyone would be ******. Highsec relies on null for high end minerals, and nullsec relies on highsec for low grades. But lets take a look at what would happen if null and high sec broke off like most of you want (not necessarily due to JF removal, though that would shoot mineral prices through the roof).
.....................
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Reread what I said, then realize I am going to **** up the talun channel later now to make fun of your illiteracy.

The OP in this thread needs to be beat or pod killed until he quits for suggesting something so dumb. He must not be able to fly one and there for thinks they should be removed.
/ sarcasm on
Heres a thought lets remove.......
Battleships to big and powerful we can't have that why its unfair to the nooblets
frigs dam those little buggers are fast let get rid of those!!
Industrials everyone should have to move things in 100unit cargo holds yay!!
you have a pod? O hell no you should go boom with your ship!
/sarcasm off

OP would you just like god mode so you can fly everything? WoW Is that way have fun!---------->



Please lock this thread for being an epicly stupid troll

No doubts you will.

However, you worded it such that it appears you're stating things are better in wormholes because people are only losing covetors, not hulks. If 74% of ABC is being mined in null, and they're only showing 25% of covetor kills and an unknown percentage of hulk kills (low and high sec numbers missing from the kills) then that implies null being the safer place to mine? They appear to be mining at least 3x the amount as wormholes, and that seems a bit low.

Let's make null worse than it already is.

Good idea OP.

Just remove mining and industry.
This is the fix.

are you stupid or what ? i'm not sugesting to KILL hauling, i'm sugesting to NERF it. JF makes hauling stuff to 0.0 too damm easy. Industry died in null sec because is easier buy everything in high sec and jump it to 0.0. Move things with transport ships not with fuckin frigates.

or maybe i should be pod killed a lot of times like you > http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=kenxi#losses

Except that JF's aren't used nearly as much as "Cloaky" Rorqs, and Super Caps.
Impact would be minimal to zero.

null sec doesnt exist anymore, its all DCF now

and if CCP just remove Jump Freigthers, the Industry and Mining in 0.0 would be fixed ?

The main problem with mining and industry in 0.0 on my point of view is that is easier to bring things from high sec to 0.0 then mine or build them in 0.0.

Keep JFs.

Once something is given, never take it back. Ah,.... that don't work on my ex-girlfriends.

....

you are official the smartest pilot in test. brilliant post! +1.

OP: TLDR version of Cellestia's post: you're a jackass

Quite, but I know 2 thing, large scale nullsec mining, and large scale nullsec industry. And everything you've said so far shows you don't know anything about either. Do some research and talk to some industrialists and miners before yammering on about making life even more of a living hell for us.

were you talking to me, or op?

i was saying that OP is a jackass.

Actually all the dumb in the eveo forums confused me, I thought you WERE the op. And I am very very sorry for that. This place makes one into a bad person, and a worse poster. I took what was a serious post as sarcasm.

You are a bloody fudging IDIOT if you think supers are built by JF hauling. Supers are built by building caps in lowsec, then jumping them up to the alliance/super building area with a station in it or next door, then the capitals are reprocessed into the parts needed. Done with a **** ton more "cargo" than a JF.

lets get off all the ships, FiS is dead anyway. Monocles are the future

Clearly, people aren't dying enough in null.

So how exactly would the OP suggest for moon minerals to be transported around?

Placing a few cloakers with cynos in vital POS systems would make this a logistical nightmare.

So how exactly would the OP suggest for moon minerals to be transported around?

Placing a few cloakers with cynos in vital POS systems would make this a logistical nightmare.

^^This.

In my experience, you're at least as safe--in some ways, arguably safer--in deep sov-zerosec than you are in hisec. (No worries about random suicide-ganks, for instance.

I've never been suicide ganked on any of my highsec alts. If you really think that there is any risk to mission running in highsec (as long as you're not in a ridiculously blinged out ship) you need your head checked.

Watch the prices of JF's tank now :)

Just as I trained JF's they remove them. Typical.

Where does the notion that they're considering removing jump freighters even come from?

Jump freighters & jump bridges should never have been implemented. Ever. They totally undermine everything that rocks about Eve. I despise them utterly.

This is why I love jump freighters and jump bridges.

I remember the time when alliances would escort freighters in 0.0 to build stuff. And fights would actually happen. JFs and JBs have been the worst introductions to the game, that and supercaps.

I remember the time when alliances would escort freighters in 0.0 to build stuff.