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Irida Mershkov
Gallente
Capsuleers of Doom
Opticon Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.10 09:47:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Irida Mershkov on 10/04/2010 09:48:45
What the title says. Crew was the majority of current Polish politicians in office at the moment.
 Quote:
Polish President Lech Kaczynski and scores of others are believed to have been killed in a plane crash in Russia.
Quote:
Officials in the Smolensk region said no-one had survived after the plane apparently hit trees as it came in for landing in thick fog.
Several other government figures, including the army chief of staff, were also thought to have been on board.
They were in Russia to mark the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre, when the Soviets killed thousands of Poles during WW2.
Edit: Corrected first sentence.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2010.04.10 10:01:00 -
[2]
All the eggs in one basket. Now if that wasn't a tempting opportunity, I don't know what is. *tinfoilhat*
--------
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Deaell Portt
Pink Bunnies
C0VEN
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Posted - 2010.04.10 10:06:00 -
[3]
['] Our president is dead, first lady and more great/important people. When i saw this in TV i feel speachless. I still dont believe in this.
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.04.10 10:06:00 -
[4]
My condolences to the families, friends and the people they served.
RIP
Orbiting vs. Kiting
Faction Schools |
Horatio Hornbowler
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Posted - 2010.04.10 10:40:00 -
[5]
It's a great tragedy for our nation.
My condolences...
R.I.P. [*]
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Herr Wilkus
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Posted - 2010.04.10 10:59:00 -
[6]
Yeah, I'm sure it was an accident. Just like the poisionings of journalists in exile and Ukrainian presidential candidates.
Putin is making a powerful statement here, especially important in an era where the US had been rendered completely impotent overseas by the election of Barack Obama.
Putin: "So, you Poles want to embarass Russia on the world stage by forcing us to acknowledge our atrocities? Well, have a nice flight...."
Criminal activity is second nature to the leadership in the Kremlin. Tampering with navigational equipment in such a way to cause a plane crash on a zero-visibility approach? Not hard to cover up with Russian authorities carrying out the subsequent 'investigation'.
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ceaon
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.10 11:08:00 -
[7]
RIP
also this will be good material for tinfoilhat
BTW awesome post OP you win the forums today
Originally by: CCP Adida
The male thread was locked because the discussion turned into transsexuals and man boobs.
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente
Capsuleers of Doom
Opticon Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.10 11:11:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Herr Wilkus
Yeah, I'm sure it was an accident. Just like the poisionings of journalists in exile and Ukrainian presidential candidates.
Putin is making a powerful statement here, especially important in an era where the US had been rendered completely impotent overseas by the election of Barack Obama.
Putin: "So, you Poles want to embarass Russia on the world stage by forcing us to acknowledge our atrocities? Well, have a nice flight...."
Criminal activity is second nature to the leadership in the Kremlin. Tampering with navigational equipment in such a way to cause a plane crash on a zero-visibility approach? Not hard to cover up with Russian authorities carrying out the subsequent 'investigation'.
You are a dumbass.
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Herr Wilkus
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Posted - 2010.04.10 11:42:00 -
[9]
News Flash: Russian news agencies are reporting that the crash was believed to have been caused by 'pilot error.'
Because we all know that the 'Air Force One' pilots who are made responsible for the safety of high officials and presidents - are really just idiots who don't know an aileron from an elevator. 
Predictable as it is pathetic.
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.04.10 11:48:00 -
[10]
The biggest issue I have is that they can get away with it.
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente
Capsuleers of Doom
Opticon Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.10 11:50:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
The biggest issue I have is that they can get away with it.
Who exactly? the pilot who flew into trees in thick fog?
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Herr Wilkus
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Posted - 2010.04.10 11:57:00 -
[12]
Nope. Irida, are you really that clueless? Zero-visibilty conditions meant the aircraft was on an instruments-only approach. Completely reliant on navigational equipment on the ground to bring it in safely.
Russian equipment. Subject to tampering by Russian agents. To be investigated by other Russian agents. Which will 'discover' nothing wrong, naturally.
I'm sure Putins rear-end kissing media will be claming the Polish pilot was drunk before too long.
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente
Capsuleers of Doom
Opticon Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.10 12:03:00 -
[13]
No but the fact you're suggesting that the Russians would assassinate the entire Polish cabinet by crashing one of their planes into their own territory is quite absurd.
Provided of course, the pilot decided to change his landing location comapred to the recommended is another thing: Quote:
"The pilot was advised to land in Minsk, but decided to land in Smolensk," said Andrei Yevseyenkov, a Smolensk regional government spokesman.
Not to mention that airplane crashes in ****-poor conditions are still tragically common. Maybe you could wait a week before jumping on the conspiracy bandwagon, go read a Tom Clancy novel whilst you wait.
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LoveKebab
Caldari
Shut Up And Play
WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2010.04.10 12:17:00 -
[14]
Edited by: LoveKebab on 10/04/2010 12:17:52
omg polish president was well known with trying to have every1 do everything his way, we had example not long ago (less than a year even) back in Gorgia when he was told by the pilot that they aint gonna even fly through the Gorgian airspace with the open conflict ongoing and for that thing pilot was almost demoted cuz the President was forcing him to land at all cost and yet he did things his way - passanger safety comes 1st
so as new informations r comming out we hear more and more that they were specificly told by both Belarusian and Russian flight control NOT TO APROACH the airfield cuz of the thick mist and almost zero visibility, yet they said they gonna try to land and as bad as it looks im almost sure pilots (even tho they got the final word on what to do and what not to with the machine they r flying) were even forced to try and land
what normal pilot would try again after 2nd or even 3rd attempt to land yet again cuz pretty much every1 know how it would and even how it ended ...
xVid4PSP MKV Encoding Tutorial |
Herr Wilkus
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Posted - 2010.04.10 12:46:00 -
[15]
Aircraft making instruments only landings rely on a beam from the ground to give them the proper approach, whether its ILS or more modern system.
Adjust the angle of the beam, you can crash any plane. Any investigation by Russian authorities is guaranteed to find nothing wrong.
Russia has turned to underhanded, criminal violence to futher its political goals in the past (Ukraine, Georgia, now Poland), and will again in the future.
And, yes, once again they will get away with it.
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Bart Starr
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Posted - 2010.04.10 13:05:00 -
[16]
Just out of curiousity, are Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton scheduled to fly into Russia anytime soon? Preferably on the same plane? One can always hope. (in game)
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Za'afiel
Gallente
C.E.T.C.
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Posted - 2010.04.10 13:33:00 -
[17]
I'm Polish, and I do believe it was an accident, when there is an official meeting, there is always rush, especially after flying around the airport for two hours waiting for the weather to get better. My guess is that the pilot was pushed by the officials to try to land (you have to know that there were also higher ranked army generals on the plane).
I would never suspect Russia or any other country to be involved in this. I have some Russian friends and they actually phoned me with condolences, although we usually write e-mails to each other.
I send my regards to all families suffering the loss. United we stand.
________________________________________
Under construction. |
Unity Love
Caldari
Dissonance Corp
Primary.
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Posted - 2010.04.10 15:02:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Za'afiel
I would never suspect Russia or any other country to be involved in this. I have some Russian friends and they actually phoned me with condolences, although we usually write e-mails to each other.
Unless your russian friend is Putin pretty moot point.
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CCP Shadow
C C P
C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.10 15:07:00 -
[19]
Off-topic comments and insults removed. Please keep this discussion civil. Thanks.
-- Shadow
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Iva Posavec
Posavec Innovations
Takhar Matari
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Posted - 2010.04.10 15:11:00 -
[20]
A very sad time for your country (if you supported / gave a damn about your current government). As for the tinfoil hat talk, none of us know much right now apart from the early reports and to immediately say it must have been the Russians is just a really stupid thing to say without anything to support such theory's (yes I am looking at you Herr Wilkus, you idiot).
Anyway my heart and thoughts go out to the families who have been hurt in the unfortunate incident. I also wonder if the factories in the UK will have to shut down while their staff have time off to grieve. Yes I know, it's too early for jokes. 
Alliance Creation |
Borza Slavak
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.04.10 15:52:00 -
[21]
Funny thing about conspiracy theorists is that they can never be proven wrong. Any evidence contrary to their theory is to be dismissed as part of the coverup.
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.04.10 15:57:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Herr Wilkus
Aircraft making instruments only landings rely on a beam from the ground to give them the proper approach, whether its ILS or more modern system.
Adjust the angle of the beam, you can crash any plane. Any investigation by Russian authorities is guaranteed to find nothing wrong.
Russia has turned to underhanded, criminal violence to futher its political goals in the past (Ukraine, Georgia, now Poland), and will again in the future.
And, yes, once again they will get away with it.
Yes, this would be the way it would be done *if* tinfoil was involved and would be completely unprovable unless the guy who twisted the dial to lower the glide scope talked.
Condolences to the greiving familys and the Polish nation. 07
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Get off the forums and go kill someone!
Originally by: Amarr Supremacist
Yeah, it(Jaguar) almost has cruiser level tank and gank!
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Vai Aaxone
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Posted - 2010.04.10 16:19:00 -
[23]
still can't believe that happened. My friends girlfriend was among the crew.
ps. Smolensk airport doesn't have ILS system.
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Zions Child
Caldari
Carthage Industries
Consortium.
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Posted - 2010.04.10 16:32:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Borza Slavak
Funny thing about conspiracy theorists is that they can never be proven wrong. Any evidence contrary to their theory is to be dismissed as part of the coverup.
Everyone saying that the Russians did is *don tinfoil hat* are people who dislike accepting the truth... People forget that most people generally don't like being responsible for the deaths of nearly a hundred people, and Smolensk airport is a civilian airfield. Think about it, if you were an air traffic controller, would you be willing to kill about 100 people to get at the leaders of a nation your country could obliterate in a few months of combat at most? Poland is <<<< Russia in terms of military strength, so I don't think even a Russian uber-patriot would have the mindset required to assassinate a hundred people.
Anyways, My condolences to the Polish people, and the families of those involved. This is a considerable tradgedy on the international scale.
===
Signature not appropriate - Adida
Originally by: CCP Shadow
It's over, Prime
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente
Capsuleers of Doom
Opticon Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.10 16:33:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Vai Aaxone
still can't believe that happened. My friends girlfriend was among the crew.
ps. Smolensk airport doesn't have ILS system.
Oh damn, sorry for his loss.
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.04.10 16:35:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Vai Aaxone
ps. Smolensk airport doesn't have ILS system.
/tinfoil status: crumpled. 
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Get off the forums and go kill someone!
Originally by: Amarr Supremacist
Yeah, it(Jaguar) almost has cruiser level tank and gank!
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Malaclypse Muscaria
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Posted - 2010.04.10 16:52:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Borza Slavak
Funny thing about conspiracy theorists is that they can never be proven wrong. Any evidence contrary to their theory is to be dismissed as part of the coverup.
Not to mention that all the evidence and motivation Herr Wilkus has to make his idiocy case here comes down to "I don't like Putin, so he must have done it". Dum dum dum!
Anyway, my condolences.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2010.04.10 16:54:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Zions Child
Everyone saying that the Russians did is *don tinfoil hat* are people who dislike accepting the truth... People forget that most people generally don't like being responsible for the deaths of nearly a hundred people, and Smolensk airport is a civilian airfield. Think about it, if you were an air traffic controller, would you be willing to kill about 100 people to get at the leaders of a nation your country could obliterate in a few months of combat at most? Poland is <<<< Russia in terms of military strength, so I don't think even a Russian uber-patriot would have the mindset required to assassinate a hundred people.
Anyways, My condolences to the Polish people, and the families of those involved. This is a considerable tradgedy on the international scale.
Hello. My last name ends in -ski. I was born in Poland, making me quite Polish.
I'm also atheist, so I don't really care about the religious factors in this story.
I do not subscribe to conspiracy theories. I think JFK was shot by some guy in a book repository, not some guy on a grassy knoll. I think conspiracy theorists are paranoid schizophrenic idiots. I do not think that president Obama wants to euthanize your grandmother in an insurance death-panel. I do not think the fluoride in our drinking water is a mind-control agent, nor do I think the gaseous trails left by aircraft overhead are spraying mind-control chemicals to subdue and pacify us.
Nor do I think our recently deceased president was some kind of hero. Most Polish people, and all my relatives (we got 10+ phone calls about it this morning from relatives in Poland) think that our ex-prez was an idiot.
Regardless of the above facts, the following has occurred.
Our president, chief of army, chief of banks, religious figures, and numerous intelligentsia, boarded a plane set to travel to a ceremony, where they were due to commemorate the 70th anniversary of Russia killing Poland's generals, professors, doctors, bankers and teachers. In this incident 70 years ago, the Russians essentially annihilated the most prominent members of our society, and left the potato farmers and ditch-diggers to die of starvation. The plane was set to arrive pretty much at the site of the massacre.
Our leaders and army chiefs have been exterminated, on the 70th anniversary of our leaders and army chiefs being exterminated, at the very same place where it happened once before.
To Poland, our prez, regardless of stupidity, is pretty important. To Poland, a 95%ish Catholic nation, our religious leader is quite important. To Poland, to lose the majority of our national leadership on the anniversary of just such an event, exactly where it happened, is pretty damn important.
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Zions Child
Caldari
Carthage Industries
Consortium.
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Posted - 2010.04.10 17:01:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
To Poland, our prez, regardless of stupidity, is pretty important. To Poland, a 95%ish Catholic nation, our religious leader is quite important. To Poland, to lose the majority of our national leadership on the anniversary of just such an event, exactly where it happened, is pretty damn important.
There is no argument that it's not important, but for some reason, I don't think the Russians would assassinate the entire Polish cabinet to make a point... I mean, the Russians can be pretty bad some times, but maybe its just naivety, but I currently refuse to believe that someone would have no trouble executing about a hundred people... Of course, if there's any proof to the contrary, then it changes the whole game considerably. I just think it's a bit of a rush to blame it all on the Russians... (Mind you I hate Putin, and think he needs to step down as supreme dictator of Russia. I'm not a fan of Russian politics/government at all, but I just believe in the natural goodness of people...)
===
Originally by: CCP Shadow
This thread has been emasculated. *click*
Originally by: CCP Shadow
*snip* Castration successful. Shadow.
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Tobias Xiaosen
Gallente
TX Holdings Company
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Posted - 2010.04.10 17:25:00 -
[30]
R.I.P. To all those that died in the crash and condolences to their friends and families
To those saying it was more than a crash and Russia had a hand in it, tell me, what exactly do they have to gain from something like this? As far as I am aware, no country would go out of its way to make something like this happen just because of a hurt ego, and not to mention if they DID do it its a bit too obvious...
But in any case, I'm pretty ignorant about politics in eastern europe
~
Originally by: Cthulhu ftghan
Keyboards are destructible. Much more so when used as a projectile.
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Radix Salvilines
The Gummy Bears
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Posted - 2010.04.10 17:27:00 -
[31]
[i]
a very sad day...
the world today is very different compared to the world as it was yesterday...
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.04.10 18:25:00 -
[32]
I do not believe in coincidence.
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente
Capsuleers of Doom
Opticon Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.10 18:28:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Vai Aaxone
ps. Smolensk airport doesn't have ILS system.
/tinfoil status: crumpled.
No Zeba, but you see the pilot was sympathetic to Putin because
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Malaclypse Muscaria
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Posted - 2010.04.10 18:57:00 -
[34]
Kaczynski was one of the main eurosceptic political figures in Europe (that is, he opposed further European integration, among other things). Thus, if anything, his position in this regard was in accordance to Russia's interests and the anti-NWO conspiranoid nuts, who don't want to see a unified, strong and centralized Europe, and much less when it comes to former communist block countries.
But then, you are wasting your time if you are looking for rational congruency in tin-foil hattery.
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Herr Wilkus
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Posted - 2010.04.10 19:41:00 -
[35]
Whether or not Russia actually was behind this atrocity will never be clear. Conveniently, it happened on Russian soil therefore they control the flow of information. The Russians will give their version of the event and there will be no way to verify it, and the only people who could dispute it are now dead.
To those who claim that Russia 'would never' do something like this: Get real. History is clear on this point. Putin uses any and all tools at his disposal to advance Russian interests, up to and including open warfare against much smaller nations. The Russian government is certainly capable of assassination on this scale - to think otherwise is naive at best.
And Russia was very displeased with Polish cooperation with the US Govt on the Midcourse Missile Defense system.
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Warhead K
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.04.10 19:42:00 -
[36]
That crash was a tragedy. It's shocking. Too many people, too many people that everyone took for granted they'd see in TV for the next couple of years to come, dead all of a sudden. One of the dead was a friend of my family to boot. :(
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Lt Forge
Pilots From Honour
Aeternus.
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Posted - 2010.04.10 19:46:00 -
[37]
1: RIP and condolences.
2: Polish/Russian muslims 
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.04.10 20:20:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Irida Mershkov
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Vai Aaxone
ps. Smolensk airport doesn't have ILS system.
/tinfoil status: crumpled.
No Zeba, but you see the pilot was sympathetic to Putin because
Oh I only meant that the ILS tinfoil was foiled. Things are just a little too coincedental for my inquireing mind. I'm sure intelligence agencys across the globe are like minded and currently pulling in all the intel jockeys they can wake up and get to the computer. One thing will probably be certain though is that if it does end up being something tinfoiley it will be someone with a grudge against poland and/or russia who is the culprit. Putin is ambitious and dangerous but not nearly stupid enough to do something like this. Or it was just pilot error. Sadly if it does end up being a conspiracy then we will never know about it until the documents are dug out of an archive half a century or moar from now.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Get off the forums and go kill someone!
Originally by: Amarr Supremacist
Yeah, it(Jaguar) almost has cruiser level tank and gank!
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Herr Wilkus
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Posted - 2010.04.10 20:52:00 -
[39]
I'm not Polish. But if I was, I'd be hacked.
Never buy into that 'time of mourning' nonsense. Thats liberal-speak for have a good cry and turn the other cheek, until they slap you again.
Its time to get angry. Get out there and burn some Russian flags tomorrow, or better yet burn a Putin effigy. Make some headlines. Its democracy in action - elect a militantly anti-Russian government that won't give Russia the time of day. Isolate them completely.
Did the US turn the other cheek when Muslim terrorists toppled the World Trade Center? Hell no! Arab cities burned, and old Sadam danced on the end of a rope.
Yes, Poland is <<<<< weaker than Russia, but that doesn't mean they have to grin and bear it when Russia is stepping on their necks.
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Zions Child
Caldari
Carthage Industries
Consortium.
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Posted - 2010.04.10 20:56:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Herr Wilkus
I'm not Polish. But if I was, I'd be hacked.
Never buy into that 'time of mourning' nonsense. Thats liberal-speak for have a good cry and turn the other cheek, until they slap you again.
Its time to get angry. Get out there and burn some Russian flags tomorrow, or better yet burn a Putin effigy. Make some headlines. Its democracy in action - elect a militantly anti-Russian government that won't give Russia the time of day. Isolate them completely.
Did the US turn the other cheek when Muslim terrorists toppled the World Trade Center? Hell no! Arab cities burned, and old Sadam danced on the end of a rope.
Yes, Poland is <<<<< weaker than Russia, but that doesn't mean they have to grin and bear it when Russia is stepping on their necks.
*sigh* and burning the Arab cities was of course, the correct course of action.
Either way, I hope Poland can move past this, and that Russia was not involved in any way beyond being a place of coincidence. If it was Russia's fault then they need to be dealt with, but reactionary violence never helps anything...
===
Originally by: CCP Shadow
This thread has been emasculated. *click*
Originally by: CCP Shadow
*snip* Castration successful. Shadow.
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frsd
Caldari
Kleinrock Heavy Industries
The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2010.04.10 21:05:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Herr Wilkus
I'm not Polish. But if I was, I'd be hacked.
Never buy into that 'time of mourning' nonsense. Thats liberal-speak for have a good cry and turn the other cheek, until they slap you again.
Its time to get angry. Get out there and burn some Russian flags tomorrow, or better yet burn a Putin effigy. Make some headlines. Its democracy in action - elect a militantly anti-Russian government that won't give Russia the time of day. Isolate them completely.
Did the US turn the other cheek when Muslim terrorists toppled the World Trade Center? Hell no! Arab cities burned, and old Sadam danced on the end of a rope.
Yes, Poland is <<<<< weaker than Russia, but that doesn't mean they have to grin and bear it when Russia is stepping on their necks.
I think ive seen this somewhere before.
Sharing is a nice gesture. Stupid but nice... |
Arianhod
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2010.04.10 21:07:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Zions Child
If it was Russia's fault then they need to be dealt with, but reactionary violence never helps anything...
With the exception of Haliburtons stock value of course.
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Haruhiists - Redeclaring open warfare on Out of Pod since 2010. |
Tallaran Kouros
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.04.10 21:16:00 -
[43]
I have lots of Polish friends and they are in shock over this :(
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.04.10 21:20:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Herr Wilkus
Did the US turn the other cheek when Muslim terrorists toppled the World Trade Center? Hell no!
Not to mention the Gulf of Tonkin!
...
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.04.10 21:30:00 -
[45]
Oh FFS, enough with the tinfoil hattery. Russia had nothing to do with this, it was 100% pilot error.
IFR Approaches 101, for the non-pilot: instrument approaches have a minimum safe altitude. You do NOT descend below this altitude unless you can see the runway, because below it you are no longer guaranteed to be clear of obstacles on the ground. You might get lucky sometimes (since the minimum altitude does have a margin of error), but it's ****ing stupid and often ends in a smoking crater off the end of the runway.
This altitude depends on the type of IFR approaches. ILS approaches can have fairly low minimum safe altitudes (even allowing the autopilot to fly the plane all the way to the ground, at a properly-equipped airport) because the ILS gives you vertical guidance. Non-ILS approaches only give you horizontal guidance, so the minimum safe altitude is set well above the surface. IOW, a non-ILS approach can get you through the clouds and down to a point where you break out of the clouds and can see the runway, but it doesn't get you all the way there.
Now, here's the important thing: the airport in question did not have an ILS approach, which means that the pilot should not have been anywhere near the ground without the runway visible out the window. There is nothing the Russians could have done to cause him to crash.
What we have in this case is a textbook screwup by the pilot that is far too common:
1) Pilot flies the instrument approach down to the minimum safe altitude, but doesn't see the runway yet.
2) Pilot for some reason (perhaps his passengers really want to get to their political event on time) decides that he MUST land there, and continues to descend instead of aborting the approach and diverting to an alternate airport.
3) Pilot discovers why the minimum safe altitude exists, and maybe has just enough time to scream "OH ****" as the crash site finally becomes visible out the window.
The fact that the pilot not only refused the suggestion of alternate airports before landing, but made multiple attempts to fly the same approach instead of diverting after the first failure is a pretty strong suggestion that this is exactly what happened.
Unless the pilot was a Russian suicide agent (and in that case, it's just as "reasonable" to think that the pilot was a Polish suicide agent trying to create anger at Russia), this was nothing more than a ****ing idiot killing himself and all of his passengers.
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Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2010.04.10 21:42:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Oh FFS, enough with the tinfoil hattery. Russia had nothing to do with this, it was 100% pilot error.
IFR Approaches 101, for the non-pilot: instrument approaches have a minimum safe altitude. You do NOT descend below this altitude unless you can see the runway, because below it you are no longer guaranteed to be clear of obstacles on the ground. You might get lucky sometimes (since the minimum altitude does have a margin of error), but it's ****ing stupid and often ends in a smoking crater off the end of the runway.
This altitude depends on the type of IFR approaches. ILS approaches can have fairly low minimum safe altitudes (even allowing the autopilot to fly the plane all the way to the ground, at a properly-equipped airport) because the ILS gives you vertical guidance. Non-ILS approaches only give you horizontal guidance, so the minimum safe altitude is set well above the surface. IOW, a non-ILS approach can get you through the clouds and down to a point where you break out of the clouds and can see the runway, but it doesn't get you all the way there.
Now, here's the important thing: the airport in question did not have an ILS approach, which means that the pilot should not have been anywhere near the ground without the runway visible out the window. There is nothing the Russians could have done to cause him to crash.
What we have in this case is a textbook screwup by the pilot that is far too common:
1) Pilot flies the instrument approach down to the minimum safe altitude, but doesn't see the runway yet.
2) Pilot for some reason (perhaps his passengers really want to get to their political event on time) decides that he MUST land there, and continues to descend instead of aborting the approach and diverting to an alternate airport.
3) Pilot discovers why the minimum safe altitude exists, and maybe has just enough time to scream "OH ****" as the crash site finally becomes visible out the window.
The fact that the pilot not only refused the suggestion of alternate airports before landing, but made multiple attempts to fly the same approach instead of diverting after the first failure is a pretty strong suggestion that this is exactly what happened.
Unless the pilot was a Russian suicide agent (and in that case, it's just as "reasonable" to think that the pilot was a Polish suicide agent trying to create anger at Russia), this was nothing more than a ****ing idiot killing himself and all of his passengers.
I love you sometimes Merin. This is one of those times.
_____________________________________
Haruhiist since December 2008
WIP
Originally by: CCP Fallout
:facepalm:
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Reyold Bengali
Caldari
|
Posted - 2010.04.10 21:53:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Oh FFS, enough with the tinfoil hattery. Russia had nothing to do with this, it was 100% pilot error.
IFR Approaches 101, for the non-pilot: instrument approaches have a minimum safe altitude. You do NOT descend below this altitude unless you can see the runway, because below it you are no longer guaranteed to be clear of obstacles on the ground. You might get lucky sometimes (since the minimum altitude does have a margin of error), but it's ****ing stupid and often ends in a smoking crater off the end of the runway.
This altitude depends on the type of IFR approaches. ILS approaches can have fairly low minimum safe altitudes (even allowing the autopilot to fly the plane all the way to the ground, at a properly-equipped airport) because the ILS gives you vertical guidance. Non-ILS approaches only give you horizontal guidance, so the minimum safe altitude is set well above the surface. IOW, a non-ILS approach can get you through the clouds and down to a point where you break out of the clouds and can see the runway, but it doesn't get you all the way there.
Now, here's the important thing: the airport in question did not have an ILS approach, which means that the pilot should not have been anywhere near the ground without the runway visible out the window. There is nothing the Russians could have done to cause him to crash.
What we have in this case is a textbook screwup by the pilot that is far too common:
1) Pilot flies the instrument approach down to the minimum safe altitude, but doesn't see the runway yet.
2) Pilot for some reason (perhaps his passengers really want to get to their political event on time) decides that he MUST land there, and continues to descend instead of aborting the approach and diverting to an alternate airport.
3) Pilot discovers why the minimum safe altitude exists, and maybe has just enough time to scream "OH ****" as the crash site finally becomes visible out the window.
The fact that the pilot not only refused the suggestion of alternate airports before landing, but made multiple attempts to fly the same approach instead of diverting after the first failure is a pretty strong suggestion that this is exactly what happened.
Unless the pilot was a Russian suicide agent (and in that case, it's just as "reasonable" to think that the pilot was a Polish suicide agent trying to create anger at Russia), this was nothing more than a ****ing idiot killing himself and all of his passengers.
Could have been coming in on PAR as well (if the airfield in question was so equipped).
-------
Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience. |
Herr Wilkus
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:05:00 -
[48]
Another news flash:
Says here that none other than Vladimir Putin himself will be leading the crash investigation. I'm sure millions are relieved to hear he is taking personal responsibility for fact finding in this matter. I'm sure within a few days they'll be able to tell us exactly how many lines of ******* Polish pilot did before this flight and demand Polish reparations for damaging their forest.
Looking forward to more croc tears and hearing from more Russian apologists.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:06:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 10/04/2010 22:07:35
Originally by: Reyold Bengali
Could have been coming in on PAR as well (if the airfield in question was so equipped).
True, I forgot to mention that one since it's so rare. However:
1) PAR approaches still have a minimum safe altitude. Since the altimeter is inside the airplane, there is nothing the Russians could have done to prevent the pilot from breaking off the approach (as he should) once he reached that altitude without seeing the runway.
2) Even if the controller somehow wanted to kill the pilot by giving bad instructions, and the pilot somehow didn't notice that he had passed the minimum safe altitude, why would it take multiple approaches? Standard procedure would be to divert to an alternate airport after the first missed approach, so you still have the pilot screwing up and being too focused on landing at the primary airport at all costs.
Originally by: Herr Wilkus
Another news flash:
Says here that none other than Vladimir Putin himself will be leading the crash investigation. I'm sure millions are relieved to hear he is taking personal responsibility for fact finding in this matter. I'm sure within a few days they'll be able to tell us exactly how many lines of ******* Polish pilot did before this flight and demand Polish reparations for damaging their forest.
Looking forward to more croc tears and hearing from more Russian apologists.
Oh FFS, before you keep ranting on about "Russian apologists", please read my posts explaining how instrument approaches and then explain how the Russians could have caused this accident without the Polish pilot screwing up.
-----------
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:15:00 -
[50]
My condolences to the people of Poland.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Malaclypse Muscaria
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:16:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Oh FFS, before you keep ranting on about "Russian apologists", please read my posts explaining how instrument approaches and then explain how the Russians could have caused this accident without the Polish pilot screwing up.
The same way the Russians also spawned the thick fog that "coincidentally" was covering the area: Grand Magus Rasputin's awesome psychic powers of doom. And btw, notice another funny "coincidence"? Rasputin...
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:19:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Malaclypse Muscaria
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Oh FFS, before you keep ranting on about "Russian apologists", please read my posts explaining how instrument approaches and then explain how the Russians could have caused this accident without the Polish pilot screwing up.
The same way the Russians also spawned the thick fog that "coincidentally" was covering the area: Grand Magus Rasputin's awesome psychic powers of doom. And btw, notice another funny "coincidence"? Rasputin...
Don't forget the offending tree was planted back in the Stalin's time. Coincidence?
...
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TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari
NailorTech Industries
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.04.10 22:20:00 -
[53]
I can not imagine how this is going to affect russia, literally wiping out half the government in one go 
_______________________
Fix rockets in '09 =( |
Jill Xelitras
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:22:00 -
[54]
I wanted to express my sympathy to the polish people.
Poland is an integral and important part of Europe and NATO member. Trying to portray an accident as a government authorized mass killing of politicians is ridiculous in a very unfunny way.
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2010.04.10 22:26:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Zions Child
but I currently refuse to believe that someone would have no trouble executing about a hundred people.
I am not not jumping to any conclusions, but what world are you living in again?
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Reyold Bengali
Caldari
|
Posted - 2010.04.10 22:30:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 10/04/2010 22:07:35
Originally by: Reyold Bengali
Could have been coming in on PAR as well (if the airfield in question was so equipped).
True, I forgot to mention that one since it's so rare. However:
1) PAR approaches still have a minimum safe altitude. Since the altimeter is inside the airplane, there is nothing the Russians could have done to prevent the pilot from breaking off the approach (as he should) once he reached that altitude without seeing the runway.
2) Even if the controller somehow wanted to kill the pilot by giving bad instructions, and the pilot somehow didn't notice that he had passed the minimum safe altitude, why would it take multiple approaches? Standard procedure would be to divert to an alternate airport after the first missed approach, so you still have the pilot screwing up and being too focused on landing at the primary airport at all costs.
Agreed. Final responsibility is with the pilot. No way in hell he could have gone below MSA without having multiple instrument failures, which normally means both radar and barometric altimeters (each with a backup). As far as Precision Approach being rare, that holds true for civilian airfields, military fields are far more likely to have them.
-------
Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:33:00 -
[57]
absolutely tragic
"A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game." |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:42:00 -
[58]
Putin, Tusk lay flowers at plane crash site near Smolensk
...
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Arianhod
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:55:00 -
[59]
Been watching this thread since it started to be honest...
And some of you guys, if you honestly beleive in the conspiracys, have a few issues you need to resolve other than just why a plane crashed. **** happens, this was a tradgedy because it was avoidable. Merin summerised it perfectly so I won't repeat it : this was a pilot ****up. Russians arent all by default ebil power hungry bastards that smack down their underlings.
That said, my condolences to the Polish people here.
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Haruhiists - Redeclaring open warfare on Out of Pod since 2010. |
Barakkus
Caelestis Iudicium
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:59:00 -
[60]
The AP is reporting that the pilot was told to divert b/c of conditions at the airport, he ignored the suggestion and tried to land anyways.
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
rofl
edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
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Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2010.04.10 23:25:00 -
[61]
EVE could teach these people a lesson, don't put all you got in one plane. Especially when you go into a country you got a vague NAP with. 
Delenda est achura. |
AdmiralJohn
The Unknown Bar and Pub
Elysium Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.04.10 23:34:00 -
[62]
My condolences to Poland. Few countries have suffered more than they have, throughout their entire history.
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente
Capsuleers of Doom
Opticon Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.04.10 23:38:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Irida Mershkov on 10/04/2010 23:42:21
Edited by: Irida Mershkov on 10/04/2010 23:39:25
Originally by: Herr Wilkus
I'm not Polish. But if I was, I'd be hacked.
Never buy into that 'time of mourning' nonsense. Thats liberal-speak for have a good cry and turn the other cheek, until they slap you again.
Its time to get angry. Get out there and burn some Russian flags tomorrow, or better yet burn a Putin effigy. Make some headlines. Its democracy in action - elect a militantly anti-Russian government that won't give Russia the time of day. Isolate them completely.
Did the US turn the other cheek when Muslim terrorists toppled the World Trade Center? Hell no! Arab cities burned, and old Sadam danced on the end of a rope.
Yes, Poland is <<<<< weaker than Russia, but that doesn't mean they have to grin and bear it when Russia is stepping on their necks.
You've been proven to be an idiot several times throughout this thread, please discontinue your current action.
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Good Post.jpg
I love you sometimes Merin. This is one of those times.
I have to agree here.
Unfortunately for the pilot, had he gone off-course to another airfield and delayed the ceremonies, he'd have gotten his ass fired.
Quote:
2) Pilot for some reason (perhaps his passengers really want to get to their political event on time) decides that he MUST land there, and continues to descend instead of aborting the approach and diverting to an alternate airport.
Just had to pick at this Merin, safety violations happen across the airline sector because of things like this (as I mentioned a few lines ago), the pilot was more than likely under heaps of pressure not to create a diplomatic incident such as the Polish being late, and thus took the risk.
Originally by: Herr Wilkus
Another news flash:
Says here that none other than Vladimir Putin himself will be leading the crash investigation. I'm sure millions are relieved to hear he is taking personal responsibility for fact finding in this matter. I'm sure within a few days they'll be able to tell us exactly how many lines of ******* Polish pilot did before this flight and demand Polish reparations for damaging their forest.
Looking forward to more croc tears and hearing from more Russian apologists.
Putin is associated as a man as getting the job done in Russian politics compared to the other abysmal choices that the poor Ivans have.
Guess who they'd send in to make sure the mess gets sorted? You pillock.
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equcin meey
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.04.10 23:38:00 -
[64]
at first i thought it was a very bad joke but after seeing different news site's,all i can say is i pass on my condolences to the families, friends and the people of poland.
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Gneeznow
Minmatar
Ship spinners inc
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Posted - 2010.04.11 00:50:00 -
[65]
Originally by: AdmiralJohn
Edited by: AdmiralJohn on 10/04/2010 23:49:16
My condolences to Poland. Few countries have suffered more than they have, throughout their entire history.
Today, we are all Polish.
ewwww no thanks
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Cat o'Ninetails
Caldari
Rancer Defence League
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Posted - 2010.04.11 01:44:00 -
[66]
seems to me like its only ever planes with famous people on them crash
this has to be a horrific blow though. a good portion of the government and military commanders taken out in one fell swoop 
a tragedy.
xxx
♥ VOTE CAT ♥
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Traveller 28
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Posted - 2010.04.11 07:19:00 -
[67]
NEWSFLASH!!!!
The Yanks caused the crash to make the Russians look bad!!
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warpod
Amarr
People Desintegration Project
|
Posted - 2010.04.11 08:05:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Malaclypse Muscaria
The same way the Russians also spawned the thick fog that "coincidentally" was covering the area: Grand Magus Rasputin's awesome psychic powers of doom. And btw, notice another funny "coincidence"? Rasputin...
NKVD officers plant trees on personal order of Stalin (Smolensk, 1947)
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Kane Starkiller
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2010.04.11 11:17:00 -
[69]
['] A sad day for my country. Lit a candle last night at the Katyn Cross in Krakow.
To all those tinfoil hat theorists; we have been trying to reconcile our differences with Russia. The Russians for their part, have been more than helpful in this difficult moment. I find it sad that human nature atomatically warrents a black-sheep to be brought forward. I sincerley doubt Russia would want another world war.
Out of respect for the dead I personally think such conspiracy comments should be kept to oneself.
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Earthan
Gallente
GREY COUNCIL
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.04.11 11:27:00 -
[70]
Altoughh i never agreed with his views as my president, rest in peace,its a great tragedy for my country.A sad sad day.
To all those with conspiracy threories guys get real:
What would be the gain for Russia?As somebody pointed he was eursceptic wich suited greatly Russia.Moreover the new president elections would be soon enough and he had no chance of wining.Would Russia risk all this jsut to eliminate him a little faster?this is rubbish.
There were several recorded conversations from the tower ordering them to abort...
Guys just accept reality: its was an accident.
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Lt Forge
Pilots From Honour
Aeternus.
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Posted - 2010.04.11 12:08:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Lt Forge on 11/04/2010 12:08:48
Another short newsflash:
It seemed that they lowered the casualties from 97 to 96, since officialy booked woman didn't board the plane.
Tinfoil hatters: Is that woman your terrorist you were looking for?
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RabbitofDoom
|
Posted - 2010.04.11 13:33:00 -
[72]
Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing
Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 11/04/2010 07:32:37
I can not imagine how this is going to affect poland, literally wiping out half the government in one go
Propably not that much. We dont have a presidential system of government. Prime minister and most of its staff weren't on a plane. It might have a significant long term impact because Kaczynsky wanted to provide more power for the president. He started to create institutions that could in future support presidential system of government. In same time new president will most propably come from a party that actualy wants to weaken presidential position and give more power to the prime minister. It was mostly caused by Kaczynsky himself that was vetoing many curent ruling party law regulations and was accused frequently that he is serving his brother party intrest than the country. He was also conservative catholic rightwinger and eurosceptic casuing many conflict bewen current liberal pro-euro ruling party. His brother wasn't on a plane that crashed soo i dont expect many changes in curent political course of Kaczynsky brother Law&justice party. Some of more nationalistic members might even try to cash in on that crash and gain additional support by fueling ant-russian sentiments in society. For ruling party (civic platform) it means that they will finaly be able to give a green light to some important reforms because new presiden will most propably will be curent acting president. While they will not be able to pass some more radical ideas because their coalition partners from PSL would not support it. I expect that Polish will be more liberal and pro european, it will still mantain a close relation with US but it will propably also seek to improve our strained (by previous law and justice government, and by Kaczynski himself) relations with Russia and Germany.
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Nathanial Victor
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.04.11 14:21:00 -
[73]
Originally by: RabbitofDoom
Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing
Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 11/04/2010 07:32:37
I can not imagine how this is going to affect poland, literally wiping out half the government in one go
Propably not that much. We dont have a presidential system of government. Prime minister and most of its staff weren't on a plane. It might have a significant long term impact because Kaczynsky wanted to provide more power for the president. He started to create institutions that could in future support presidential system of government. In same time new president will most propably come from a party that actualy wants to weaken presidential position and give more power to the prime minister. It was mostly caused by Kaczynsky himself that was vetoing many curent ruling party law regulations and was accused frequently that he is serving his brother party intrest than the country. He was also conservative catholic rightwinger and eurosceptic casuing many conflict bewen current liberal pro-euro ruling party. His brother wasn't on a plane that crashed soo i dont expect many changes in curent political course of Kaczynsky brother Law&justice party. Some of more nationalistic members might even try to cash in on that crash and gain additional support by fueling ant-russian sentiments in society. For ruling party (civic platform) it means that they will finaly be able to give a green light to some important reforms because new presiden will most propably will be curent acting president. While they will not be able to pass some more radical ideas because their coalition partners from PSL would not support it. I expect that Polish will be more liberal and pro european, it will still mantain a close relation with US but it will propably also seek to improve our strained (by previous law and justice government, and by Kaczynski himself) relations with Russia and Germany.
no one is going to read that. learn to use your ******* enter key and make some ******* paragraphs. space it out. who the hell would read a block of crap like that?
RAGE!
that aside, i feel terrible for anyone affected by this event. a terrible terrible tragedy
"one more spam thread will get you a warning.
- Thanks Hutch. "
isn't a warning of a warning a warning? or just a warning of a warning? didnt he just get 'the warning'?
my head hurts |
Brom Crysal
|
Posted - 2010.04.11 15:08:00 -
[74]
Our condolences to the families and friends of the victims of this terrible accident. Our condolences to the people of Poland for the loss of their leader. I am an American, and I am not a fan of our President Obama; however, if he were killed in a plane crash or an auto accident, it would still be a national tragedy.
Poland is a strong nation that traces it's history back a thousand years. It has endured many gains and losses in it's history. It was conquered by **** Germany (very different from modern Germany, please no flames for mentioning ****sm), yet arose into the economic power of eastern Europe it is today. Poland endured over a million of it's people carried off as slaves by the Tartars, yet still is held as being most responsible for finally halting the expansion of the Ottoman Empire in the Battle of Vienna (again, no insult to the Turks, it's just history).
So Poland, you are strong. Grieve, then stand back up and go back on the advance, as all the nations have come to expect from one of the toughest peoples in the world.
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Za'afiel
Gallente
C.E.T.C.
|
Posted - 2010.04.11 15:49:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Za''afiel on 11/04/2010 15:53:17
Edited by: Za''afiel on 11/04/2010 15:51:58
Originally by: Brom Crysal
Poland endured over a million of it's people carried off as slaves by the Tartars, yet still is held as being most responsible for finally halting the expansion of the Ottoman Empire in the Battle of Vienna (again, no insult to the Turks, it's just history).
The interesting point in history is that although we fought many battles with Turks, including Vienna mentioned by you, and for a very long time these two countries were considered as enemies, Ottoman Empire was the only european country that did not approve the partitions of Poland in 1772, 1793, and 1795.
Moreover, during 150 years of partition, the historians say that on a traditional annual meeting of Sultan with consuls from different european countries, the Sultans' habit was to ask his advisors in the presence of the officials from the countries responsible for partitions:
- And where is the representation of Poland?
- Unfortunately, they could not come - answered the advisor
Originally by: Brom Crysal
Our condolences to the families and friends of the victims of this terrible accident. Our condolences to the people of Poland for the loss of their leader.(...) So Poland, you are strong. Grieve, then stand back up and go back on the advance, as all the nations have come to expect from one of the toughest peoples in the world.
Thank You.
________________________________________
Under construction. |
Dimitryy
Gallente
Ever Flow
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.04.12 01:17:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Herr Wilkus
News Flash: Russian news agencies are reporting that the crash was believed to have been caused by 'pilot error.'
And the logs show nothing.
------------------------------------------
Jack Blackstone > Dimitryy I hope you die. |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
|
Posted - 2010.04.12 02:36:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Dimitryy
Originally by: Herr Wilkus
News Flash: Russian news agencies are reporting that the crash was believed to have been caused by 'pilot error.'
And the logs show nothing.
It seems the 'logs' are intact and being studied by a joint team of Polish and Russian investigators. It will be up to the Polish authorities to make public what they discover.
...
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Ravans
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2010.04.13 00:09:00 -
[78]
Dont need the black box logs for the cause of crash. the cause is the pilot tried to land at an airfield in fog, the airfield was not equiped with ILS, the pilot had no descent profile guide and hence, landed short.
what the blackbox will show is if the president got up front and demanded the pilot land at the field, hes done it before in tiblisi.
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The AEther
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
|
Posted - 2010.04.13 00:44:00 -
[79]
Very tragic.
To all of those saying Russian government did this - if there was some kind of electrical malfunction, explosion on board, etc etc I'd say yet possible. But it was Polish pilot who flew the plane into trees when there was fog outside. You are also basically saying that Russian agents were working hard to get all these people aboard this single plane at exactly this date when there would be bad landing conditions for their plane and then somehow persuaded the pilot to fly so close to the ground. Poland and Russia have had disagreements before - so why now and why like this? I am sure they could have just put some dioxin into Polish president's soup too and not bother with such a grandiose operation of getting all those people on the plane to crash it.
Agony Unleashed - zero blues 0.0 pvp, pvp classes |
Kolterr
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Posted - 2010.04.15 02:41:00 -
[80]
My dad used to work for aeroflot back in the 80s/90s. I spoke with him about this incident and he told me that even back then the Poles were very arrogant, when conditions were very bad for landing NO nation would attempt a landing except the Poles, they disregarded any advice given by the dispatchers time after time again. He told me that dispatchers may warn or give advice but if the captain decides to take the course of action then he is responsible for the consequences and by the looks of it this is exactly what happened, except their arrogance this time cost them their lives.
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