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So sick of hearing peoples sandbox fallacies.

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genette devo Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.04.13 21:15:00 - [31] Edited by: genette devo on 13/04/2010 21:24:09 Edited by: genette devo on 13/04/2010 21:17:18 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: genette devo the same could be said of the pvp win or lose is almost already determined before the ships lock each other Explain how that makes it repetitive or boring. the actual fights generally boring, they gain their excitement from their the fact that the outcome actually means something,not the actual kill. gatecamps fleetfights and hulk ganks are just as by the numbers dull as any lvl 4
Montague Zooma Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.13 21:19:00 - [32] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne If you are playing this game for the PVE, then man you must really have a serious case of OCD cause the PVE in EVE is the most repetitive and completely boring PVE I have ever done in any game. I guess one of the only reasons people do EVE PVE is because the vast majority of it can be done solo or while dual boxing while all the games out there with good PVE content require being part of a team. Other than that... man, lvl 4 missions are eye bleedingly dull. You're right, fleet battles where you stare at blank screens, your guns get stuck or don't fire and you can lose your ship a couple of hours after logging off are a lot more fun. PVP has its drawbacks, too.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.13 21:20:00 - [33] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 13/04/2010 21:21:57 Originally by: genette devo the actual fights generally boring, they gain their excitement This is confusing. Originally by: genette devo gatecamps fleetfights and hulk ganks are just as by the numbers dull as any lvl 4 Particularly unimaginative subsets of PvP are boring. I doubt the best missions can match the best PvP though. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Stinky McPoopyPants	Posted - 2010.04.13 21:26:00 - [34] Everytime i hear someone call eve a 'sandbox' i want pull down my pants and take a poo on that persons head. Eve is about as far from a sandbox game as you can get. You want a sandbox? go play SecondLife.com Eve is no where near being a sandbox. Not even a little bit close.
genette devo Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.04.13 21:28:00 - [35] Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 13/04/2010 21:21:57 Originally by: genette devo the actual fights generally boring, they gain their excitement This is confusing. what i mean is, if taken on their own without the overall sandbox context they are boring fights when compared to pure combat games like battlefield, CoD, counterstrike...... they become exciting only due to the fact that people dont respawn in full kit at the end of a match, that you can actually hurt others or be hurt by them.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.13 21:33:00 - [36] Originally by: genette devo what i mean is, if taken on their own without the overall sandbox context they are boring fights I agree with this. However, they cannot be taken on their own, as that is how EVE works. And, CoD and similar, taken only in the (nonexistant) overall context, are also boring as fights achieve nothing. OTOH, most PvE, sandbox context and all, is pretty boring. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Ryhss Caldari 42nd Airborn	Posted - 2010.04.13 21:49:00 - [37] Originally by: Zartrader Originally by: Felix Esperium I think this thread is a lie. There is no sand in Eve... how would the tape stick to my rifter if there was sand everywhere? Mmmm, that could explain why my Rifter falls apart when it comes across another ship. Do you wipe it off?
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.13 21:50:00 - [38] Originally by: Stinky McPoopyPants Everytime i hear someone call eve a 'sandbox' i want pull down my pants and take a poo on that persons head. Eve is about as far from a sandbox game as you can get. You want a sandbox? go play SecondLife.com Eve is no where near being a sandbox. Not even a little bit close. I am sure the devs appreciate the ol' poo on the nugget. Timeless gag. This is clearly a signature.
Ryhss Caldari 42nd Airborn	Posted - 2010.04.13 22:02:00 - [39] Originally by: Crumplecorn EVE is a sandbox, and so it is indeed about freedom, but it is a multiplayer sandbox, and as such this freedom includes the freedom to engage other players in nonconsensual interactions. Thus it is implicit that by entering the sandbox you must forfeit the freedom to be exempt from such nonconsensual interactions initiated by other players. If a mechanic violates this premise it is broken, as it removes the multiplayer aspect for the player who has exempted themselves, and removes the freedom to interact with that player from everyone else. I hate non consensual pvp, BUT I agree with this.
Hecatonis	Posted - 2010.04.13 22:14:00 - [40] wow a thread that is decent enough to waste my time posting in, very rare in GD. i agree with the OP, many of the arguments used here is just so wrong, granted most arguments on the internet are wrong. People forget to really think what a sandbox game is when they make arguments like "everyone should be forced to ______" well the problem with that is you are removing choice when you do things like that. A sandbox game should have as few rules as possible and a scaling bar of safety, eve does a really good job at this. we have highsec, low sec and nul sec, and NPC corp, yes i say an NPC corp is its own section of the game. none is 100% safe, and each have their own rules, but not many at all. we are not forced out of any section unless we want to go, and we can choose to play in the rules that are put out for us. (and now for a rant/troll comment, stop reading here if you dont want/care and dont come *ing to me if it offends you. you have been warned) why is it the low sec players ***** the most about this. really guys come on and get over yourself. the highsec/NPC corp players and nul sec players get along just fine, we flood the market with extra ore and goods driving the prices down, everyone loves the cheaper stuff, (well excect the people making them in a market that is saturated but really you should be doing it then? :P ) and we never see each other. but then there is the lowsec players that like to fly around whining about how they have no targets, well fight each other or is that too much of a challenge? we might be carebears, but we never deny that fact. people that look for easy kills are even worse because they cant seem to understand that this makes them an even worse kind of carebear.

Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.13 22:31:00 - [41] Originally by: Hecatonis People forget to really think what a sandbox game is when they make arguments like "everyone should be forced to ______" well the problem with that is you are removing choice when you do things like that. A sandbox game should have as few rules as possible In that case NPC corps should be abolished, as we will be removing the rule that NPC corp members cannot be war decced, thus having fewer rules, and everyone will have the option to war dec them, meaning people will have more choices. Instead, even after saying this, you advocate forcing everyone to leave NPC corp members in relative peace. People promoting PvP don't forget what a sandbox is. People who want to hide in NPC corps forget that every freedom given takes away another, and so which ones are kept and which are discarded must be evaluated against the concept of the game. Originally by: Hecatonis we flood the market with extra ore and goods driving the prices down, everyone loves the cheaper stuff, (well excect the people making them in a market that is saturated but really you should be doing it then? :P ) Hm, so you should be free to play however you like, and if it screws up someone else's playstyle then they are doing it wrong? That's exactly the thinking carebears accuse PvPers of having. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Hecatonis	Posted - 2010.04.13 22:53:00 - [42] Originally by: Crumplecorn People promoting PvP don't forget what a sandbox is. People who want to hide in NPC corps forget that every freedom given takes away another, and so which ones are kept and which are discarded must be evaluated against the concept of the game. your right its a give and take, theirs is that they cannot war dec others pay greater taxes and loose the benefit of corp sec standing. what you are looking for is easier targets, you are welcome to kill their ships as much as you want, it will just cause your ship. live with it. Originally by: Crumplecorn Hm, so you should be free to play however you like, and if it screws up someone else's playstyle then they are doing it wrong? That's exactly the thinking carebears accuse PvPers of having. lol this is a great post, as i said above, you are free kill their ships, you will just loose yours. does that screw up YOUR play style? and is that wrong? go find yourself a real target man, it will far more entertaining for you :)
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.13 23:04:00 - [43] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 13/04/2010 23:06:23 Originally by: Neesa Corrinne If you are playing this game for the PVE, then man you must really have a serious case of OCD cause the PVE in EVE is the most repetitive and completely boring PVE I have ever done in any game. I guess one of the only reasons people do EVE PVE is because the vast majority of it can be done solo or while dual boxing while all the games out there with good PVE content require being part of a team. Other than that... man, lvl 4 missions are eye bleedingly dull. Ah, you must be one of those iimbeciles that swear fun is an absolute and that coincidentally your fun is the right one. One day you'll grow up and come to the realization that "fun" is relative to one's taste and in fact it is not a value attached soley to your perceived world and the universe you swear revolves around it. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.13 23:17:00 - [44] Originally by: Hecatonis Presumptuous crap You neither know my agenda nor apparently have the capacity to bring any actual arguments to the table. Good day to you. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.13 23:25:00 - [45] Quote: If we truely had free will to do whatever in the game, there would be wardecs hitting the NPC corps daily. The fact that this limitation is in place (which you definitely argued against changing in another thread) means we do not have a true sandbox, and my problem with this topic is that it stems from an argument regarding forcing people out of NPC corps where half the people against the idea spew the same old "Well eve is a sandbox and I should get to play it however I want" crap that they do every time someone threatens the way they play the game. I snipped the quote before, thats the whole sentence. "You can't war dec npc corps" is indeed fact, however "You cant war dec npc corps because" is opinion. This is clearly a signature.
Hecatonis	Posted - 2010.04.13 23:28:00 - [46] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Hecatonis Presumptuous crap You neither know my agenda nor apparently have the capacity to bring any actual arguments to the table. Good day to you. 0/10 try harder next time. just because i dont agree with you and i am just as unmoving on my view as you are with yours doesnt mean you have to resort to poor trolling. the ONLY purpose of removing people from NPC corps is to make them possible war targets, nothing more. please dont pretend its anything else. good day t oyou as well and fly safe :)
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.13 23:29:00 - [47] Originally by: Cipher Jones "You cant war dec npc corps because" is opinion. I see no 'because'. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.13 23:46:00 - [48] Originally by: Hecatonis just because i dont agree with you and i am just as unmoving on my view as you are with yours doesnt mean you have to resort to poor trolling. No. The bulk of your post being presumptuous crap does however. Originally by: Hecatonis the ONLY purpose of removing people from NPC corps is to make them possible war targets, nothing more. please dont pretend its anything else. Everyone must have an agenda, right? Since I have some time to kill, I will elucidate for your benefit the worthlessness of the 'argument' you put forth: your right its a give and take, theirs is that they cannot war dec others So their cost for avoiding PvP is being unable to PvP? Stunning. pay greater taxes So they have to grind in near total safety a little longer? How awful. Though this addition is a step in the right direction. corp sec standing Corp sec standing? Do you mean 'corp standing'? As in, that thing that allows you to get standings without grinding? A terrible loss to those who grind all day. you are welcome to kill their ships as much as you want, it will just ~~cause~~ cost you your ship. A privilege no other group receives, which is the point. There is no real cost to being in an NPC corp, it is simply a method of exempting yourself from a basic principle of the game, curtailing the freedoms of everyone else in the process. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.13 23:57:00 - [49] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Cipher Jones "You cant war dec npc corps because" is opinion. I see no 'because'. Well usually when you explain something like that 'because' is implied. CCP did not make the game 100% open ended, and any speculation as to why is indeed speculation. It was already stated twice that the game was made as close to open ended as CCP made it, not 100%. Since we were already past that my only logical assumption is that was posted to explain why. Either way I agree that there are limitations to the game. Point of the thread is that limiting other players experience to give you what you want is against the spirit of what CCP was trying to accomplish I M H O. In a nutshell its like saying "in this game you must fight, not run because I want to fight you". Bull****. If you want to fight me you have to catch me first. This is clearly a signature.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:03:00 - [50] Quote: There is no real cost to being in an NPC corp, At this point you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that your intel officers have failed and need to walk the plank. It costs 11% of your bounty to be in an NPC corp. This is clearly a signature.

Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:05:00 - [51] Originally by: Cipher Jones Well usually when you explain something like that 'because' is implied. I see no implied because either. Simply a highlight of the likely difference between real EVE and a truer 'free will EVE'. Originally by: Cipher Jones Point of the thread is that limiting other players experience to give you what you want is against the spirit of what CCP was trying to accomplish I M H O. I agree. So I take it you agree that people shouldn't be able to hide from PvPers just because they want to play in safety? Originally by: Cipher Jones In a nutshell its like saying "in this game you must fight, not run because I want to fight you". Bull****. If you want to fight me you have to catch me first. I agree. And I take it you agree that 'I' should be able to chase you, which is effectively not the case with NPC corps as they are? - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:07:00 - [52] Originally by: Cipher Jones Quote: There is no real cost to being in an NPC corp, At this point you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that your intel officers have failed and need to walk the plank. It costs 11% of your bounty to be in an NPC corp. And as I pointed out, but will generously point out again, what does it matter if you have to grind a little longer when you can do so in safety anyway? - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:14:00 - [53] Originally by: Crumplecorn And as I pointed out, but will generously point out again, what does it matter if you have to grind a little longer when you can do so in safety anyway? And? So what if players can grind in relative safety? What do you want to happen once someone goes through a losing streak and can't PVP, quit? There's nothing wrong with being able to grind. It keeps PVP alive. The only thing your idea will accomplish is create an end game where when you go broke that's it. You lost. Quit. Because if you try and grind and lose again you'll continue digging yourself into the red. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:19:00 - [54] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 And? So what if players can grind in relative safety? So... nothing? I merely said that having to do a little extra grinding on top of your grinding is no real cost. Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 You have to be in an NPC corp to grind ISK News to me. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:23:00 - [55] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 14/04/2010 00:24:32 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 You have to be in an NPC corp to grind ISK News to me. WTF? Why are you making up quotes about stuff I haven't said at all . Dude, no need to make **** up. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Cambarus The Compass Reloaded	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:30:00 - [56] Originally by: Cipher Jones Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Cipher Jones "You cant war dec npc corps because" is opinion. I see no 'because'. Well usually when you explain something like that 'because' is implied. CCP did not make the game 100% open ended, and any speculation as to why is indeed speculation. It was already stated twice that the game was made as close to open ended as CCP made it, not 100%. Since we were already past that my only logical assumption is that was posted to explain why. Either way I agree that there are limitations to the game. Point of the thread is that limiting other players experience to give you what you want is against the spirit of what CCP was trying to accomplish I M H O. In a nutshell its like saying "in this game you must fight, not run because I want to fight you". Bull****. If you want to fight me you have to catch me first. You seem to misunderstand my argument. It's actually not even one that has to do specifically with wardecs, but rather the fact that people like to use the whole concept of a sandbox to defend something that goes against the very idea. The point is, a true sandbox would not have such arbitrary limitations like the NPC wardec immunity, so claiming that removing said immunity would be wrong because eve is a sandbox and you should get to play however you want is flat out wrong. WHY CCP made NPC corps the way they did is irrelevant, and at no point mentioned in my argument. All we know is that CCP made the NPC corps a certain way, and that they are not happy with the way they harbor so many people from wars/other player corp stuff. As for the limitations comment, the whole argument brought fourth by most people looking to nerf NPC corps is that they interfere with THEIR playstyle. And while they tend to offer other arguments to support their claims, most of the carebears just whine about how the game shouldn't be about forcing stuff on them, when the very point they're trying to defend is about forcing limitations on others. I'd say that "what CCP were trying to accomplish" is a mostly PVP focused game that acts as a cold, harsh universe. Difference between my opinions and yours is that mine is based on game mechanics, dev statements and experience. With regards to the nutsell comment: The problem with suicide ganking is even if you win, you lose. This will become even more true when they nerf insurance. The sec status issue has never been a problem for me, because I'm 1 part pvper 2 parts carebear, and my missions keep my sec status healthy enough for the occasional gank. Wardecs also allow you to harass trade routes fueling enemies in nullsec, or fight someone to scare them away from a certain area. Wardecs offer much more than just the ability to shoot people. But the comparison you made makes no sense. It's easy to avoid wardecs, and just as easy to avoid wartargets, so it's not like you can't run when at war. The problem lies with the fact that you can completely shield yourself from wardecs with no effort or skill required. Catching people isn't the problem, it's the god-mode-wardec-100%-immunity that NPC corps offer.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:43:00 - [57] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 14/04/2010 00:24:32 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 You have to be in an NPC corp to grind ISK News to me. WTF? Why are you making up quotes about stuff I haven't said at all . Dude, no need to make **** up. You made exactly that implication. This thread is about NPC corps, with varying levels of transparency, and is thus unrelated to people's ability to recover from losses. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:47:00 - [58] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 14/04/2010 00:51:12 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 14/04/2010 00:49:02 Originally by: Crumplecorn You made exactly that implication. This thread is about NPC corps, with varying levels of transparency, and is thus unrelated to people's ability to recover from losses. And you made a comment specifically about grinding. And I gave you my opinion on your comment about grinding. No where did I imply grinding is exlusive to NPC corps. I just stated that there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with grinding in safety. In fact, there should be a zone where you could recover from your losses. YOU were the one that brought up the whole argument about grinding, not me. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:54:00 - [59] Edited by: Cipher Jones on 14/04/2010 00:56:35 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Cipher Jones Quote: There is no real cost to being in an NPC corp, At this point you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that your intel officers have failed and need to walk the plank. It costs 11% of your bounty to be in an NPC corp. And as I pointed out, but will generously point out again, what does it matter if you have to grind a little longer when you can do so in safety anyway? Whatever, you're saying 2 different things. Theres no real cost to being in an NPC corp is a false statement. Your perception is that said cost is not real. Thank you for your generosity. Im no longer answering "what this thread is about" posts as it has been clearly defined. I have no stake in the NPC corp argument other than it is related to peoples misconception of the sandbox. I can see however that people are passionate about it. This is clearly a signature.
Hecatonis	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:59:00 - [60] Originally by: Crumplecorn No. The bulk of your post being presumptuous crap does however. lol, quick question are you this easily offended in RL? you need to chill bro. Originally by: Crumplecorn Since I have some time to kill, I will elucidate for your benefit the worthlessness of the 'argument' you put forth: using big words doesn't help your case it makes you look pedantic ;) Originally by: Crumplecorn pay greater taxes So they have to grind in near total safety a little longer? How awful. Though this addition is a step in the right direction. yes it takes longer to get the money they need, this slows their growth and lowers their efficiency, thats a downside btw. Originally by: Crumplecorn corp sec standing Corp sec standing? Do you mean 'corp standing'? As in, that thing that allows you to get standings without grinding? A terrible loss to those who grind all day. i assuming you have not done the grind before, its dam boring i am happy to be able to run decent missions for many corps because of my corp. coming from a mission grinder, its really nice. Originally by: Crumplecorn you are welcome to kill their ships as much as you want, it will just ~~cause~~ cost you your ship. A privilege no other group receives, which is the point. yes it is the point, they dont want to PvP, nor would they be any good at it or in a ship that could, your still looking for an easy kill carebear. Originally by: Crumplecorn There is no real cost to being in an NPC corp, it is simply a method of exempting yourself from a basic principle of the game, curtailing the freedoms of everyone else in the process. except for slowing down the development of their char. and in this game its the only benchmark to go by in this game. and your freedom is not being curtailed drama queen, you will just have to look for harder targets to kill. get over yourself :)



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