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So sick of hearing peoples sandbox fallacies.

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Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.13 01:50:00 - [1] Ok, EvE online is the sandbox, we get it. We embrace it even. However, that doesent mean: Forced PvP Forced War Decs Forced anything If the game has a mechanic deal with it. If you try to PvP someone and they run nothing is broken. You've lost. If you war dec someone and they leave the corp or disband the corp, deal with it. NPC corps are not broken. Hisec is not broken. Level 4 missions are not broken. The only part that was broken was the loot tables, which have allegedly been fixed in the upcoming patch. Sandbox means open ended as close to free will as you can get. It does not mean "what you do is what eve is about". Eve is as much about ninja salvaging as it is about wormholes as it is about ore as it is about sell orders as it is about research as it is about pvp etc etc... Live with it or emoragequit. and dont gimme your stuff when you do, emoragequitter tear residue is known to cause cancer. This is clearly a signature.
Dan O'Connor Cerberus Network Dignitas.	Posted - 2010.04.13 01:51:00 - [2] Originally by: Cipher Jones Ok, EvE online is the sandbox, we get it. We embrace it even. However, that doesent mean: Forced PvP Forced War Decs Forced anything If the game has a mechanic deal with it. If you try to PvP someone and they run nothing is broken. You've lost. If you war dec someone and they leave the corp or disband the corp, deal with it. NPC corps are not broken. Hisec is not broken. Level 4 missions are not broken. The only part that was broken was the loot tables, which have allegedly been fixed in the upcoming patch. Sandbox means open ended as close to free will as you can get. It does not mean "what you do is what eve is about". Eve is as much about ninja salvaging as it is about wormholes as it is about ore as it is about sell orders as it is about research as it is about pvp etc etc... Live with it or emoragequit. and dont gimme your stuff when you do, emoragequitter tear residue is known to cause cancer. kthx ----
Cyrus Deacon	Posted - 2010.04.13 01:58:00 - [3] Im sick of hearing people whine. That in it self is a whine. So I am sick of you and I. Cheers
Felix Esperium Lysergic Distortions Research and Development	Posted - 2010.04.13 02:23:00 - [4] Can I have your stuff?
Neesa Corrinne Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2010.04.13 02:38:00 - [5] Originally by: Cipher Jones Ok, EvE online is the sandbox, we get it. We embrace it even. However, that doesent mean: Forced PvP Forced War Decs Forced anything If the game has a mechanic deal with it. If you try to PvP someone and they run nothing is broken. You've lost. If you war dec someone and they leave the corp or disband the corp, deal with it. NPC corps are not broken. Hisec is not broken. Level 4 missions are not broken. The only part that was broken was the loot tables, which have allegedly been fixed in the upcoming patch. Sandbox means open ended as close to free will as you can get. It does not mean "what you do is what eve is about". Eve is as much about ninja salvaging as it is about wormholes as it is about ore as it is about sell orders as it is about research as it is about pvp etc etc... Live with it or emoragequit. and dont gimme your stuff when you do, emoragequitter tear residue is known to cause cancer. I smell a troll lurking under this bridge, however... This game is completely about PVP. The vast majority of the ships in this game are designed to do nothing except destroy other ships in various and creative ways. You are either out there shooting people, or you are building the ships and modules that allow others to shoot people. In fact, you are probably selling your products to people who are trying to: Force PvP Force War Decs Force anything ... and therefore you are part of the problem and should just quit and give me all of your stuff on the way out the door. :) If you are playing this game for the PVE, then man you must really have a serious case of OCD cause the PVE in EVE is the most repetitive and completely boring PVE I have ever done in any game. I guess one of the only reasons people do EVE PVE is because the vast majority of it can be done solo or while dual boxing while all the games out there with good PVE content require being part of a team. Other than that... man, lvl 4 missions are eye bleedingly dull.
Ryhss Caldari 42nd Airborn	Posted - 2010.04.13 02:46:00 - [6] Originally by: Cipher Jones Ok, EvE online is the sandbox, we get it. We embrace it even. However, that doesent mean: Forced PvP Forced War Decs Forced anything If the game has a mechanic deal with it. If you try to PvP someone and they run nothing is broken. You've lost. If you war dec someone and they leave the corp or disband the corp, deal with it. NPC corps are not broken. Hisec is not broken. Level 4 missions are not broken. The only part that was broken was the loot tables, which have allegedly been fixed in the upcoming patch. Sandbox means open ended as close to free will as you can get. It does not mean "what you do is what eve is about". Eve is as much about ninja salvaging as it is about wormholes as it is about ore as it is about sell orders as it is about research as it is about pvp etc etc... Live with it or emoragequit. and dont gimme your stuff when you do, emoragequitter tear residue is known to cause cancer. I like your style....
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.13 02:48:00 - [7] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne Originally by: Cipher Jones Ok, EvE online is the sandbox, we get it. We embrace it even. However, that doesent mean: Forced PvP Forced War Decs Forced anything If the game has a mechanic deal with it. If you try to PvP someone and they run nothing is broken. You've lost. If you war dec someone and they leave the corp or disband the corp, deal with it. NPC corps are not broken. Hisec is not broken. Level 4 missions are not broken. The only part that was broken was the loot tables, which have allegedly been fixed in the upcoming patch. Sandbox means open ended as close to free will as you can get. It does not mean "what you do is what eve is about". Eve is as much about ninja salvaging as it is about wormholes as it is about ore as it is about sell orders as it is about research as it is about pvp etc etc... Live with it or emoragequit. and dont gimme your stuff when you do, emoragequitter tear residue is known to cause cancer. I smell a troll lurking under this bridge, however... This game is completely about PVP. The vast majority of the ships in this game are designed to do nothing except destroy other ships in various and creative ways. You are either out there shooting people, or you are building the ships and modules that allow others to shoot people. In fact, you are probably selling your products to people who are trying to: Force PvP Force War Decs Force anything ... and therefore you are part of the problem and should just quit and give me all of your stuff on the way out the door. :) If you are playing this game for the PVE, then man you must really have a serious case of OCD cause the PVE in EVE is the most repetitive and completely boring PVE I have ever done in any game. I guess one of the only reasons people do EVE PVE is because the vast majority of it can be done solo or while dual boxing while all the games out there with good PVE content require being part of a team. Other than that... man, lvl 4 missions are eye bleedingly dull. The only problem I mention is people creating a fallacy about what the sandbox is. I have zero complaints about eve. This is clearly a signature.
Felix Esperium Lysergic Distortions Research and Development	Posted - 2010.04.13 03:03:00 - [8] I think this thread is a lie. There is no sand in Eve... how would the tape stick to my rifter if there was sand everywhere?
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.04.13 03:07:00 - [9] Originally by: Felix Esperium I think this thread is a lie. There is no sand in Eve... how would the tape stick to my rifter if there was sand everywhere? Mmmm, that could explain why my Rifter falls apart when it comes across another ship.
Cambarus The Compass Reloaded	Posted - 2010.04.13 04:08:00 - [10] First I'll start with my reply to your comment in another thread, because it actually seems more relevant here: Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: Cipher Jones Originally by: Cambarus lots of text quoted only to have a 2 line reply Its called the sandbox not the forced to PvP sandbox. Quit being a hater and get used to it or go play something else. If its fair that you can declare war then its fair that you can remove your affiliation. P E R I O D. Eve is, first and foremost, a pvp game. This sandbox crap that people love to spout whenever someone suggests changing any facet of the game is hilarious. If eve were a true sandbox, why can't we wardec NPC corps? There are still limitations on what we can and cannot do in eve, so simply spouting EVE R SANDBOX! every time someone suggests changing doesn't make you right. Also, eve is very much a forced pvp game. Any time you leave the station people have the ability to shoot at you, so I'm not quite sure why you'd say something like "It's called the sandbox not the forced pvp sandbox" Eve may be a sandbox, but the sandbox does have rules and limitations. What exactly makes these rules and limitations equivalent to the 10 commandments is beyond me, but I really don't see the problem in arguing that some of them should be changed or adjusted. In the OP you mention that eve doesn't mean forced pvp forced wardecs forced anything and that if the game has a mechanic to deal with it. Last time I checked, neither pvp nor wardecs were consensual, so I'm not really sure what you're trying to say there. And CCP changes/nerfs game mechanics all the time, what's wrong with suggesting/arguing how they should do it next?

Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.13 05:25:00 - [11] Quote: so I'm not really sure what you're trying to say there. Yet you replied. Quote: And CCP changes/nerfs game mechanics all the time, what's wrong with suggesting/arguing how they should do it next? Who said there was anything wrong with that? I think it ties in with not understanding what I was saying, because that's not what I said. Heres a Gem: Quote: Also, eve is very much a forced pvp game. Any time you leave the station people have the ability to shoot at you, so I'm not quite sure why you'd say something like "It's called the sandbox not the forced pvp sandbox" Nobody forces you to leave the station. Its funny that I put "fallacies" in the title and you're not sure why I said what I said but you used a fallacy in your argument. I'm honestly not trying to be a troll but that's right on the money. This is clearly a signature.
Atticus Fynch	Posted - 2010.04.13 05:52:00 - [12] what does my phallus have to do with this topic?
Julius Rigel	Posted - 2010.04.13 07:48:00 - [13] Hear hear! A toast to Cipher Jones!
Keflin Geard The Circle Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.04.13 08:15:00 - [14] Edited by: Keflin Geard on 13/04/2010 08:23:58 grumpy post.
Cambarus The Compass Reloaded	Posted - 2010.04.13 10:31:00 - [15] Now I was almost ready to believe that this wasn't a trollpost, but then you actually went and started arguing semantics and technicalities having nothing to do with the topic at hand. But fine, I'll play your game. This thread was made in response to another thread asking CCP to force people out of NPC corps. By your logic, this should not be a problem because hey, you always have the option of not undocking right? Or rather, it would be more accurate to say that by your logic we should allow people to wardec the NPC corps, because the fact that we can't is an arbitrary limitation that goes against eve's sandbox mentality, and people who don't want to pvp can always just stay docked.
Rellik B00n Minmatar Lethal Death Squad	Posted - 2010.04.13 10:44:00 - [16] wileece wodderwick + LDSkill+hireLDS
Haramir Haleths Caldari Nutella Bande	Posted - 2010.04.13 10:55:00 - [17]
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.13 11:15:00 - [18] EVE is a sandbox, and so it is indeed about freedom, but it is a multiplayer sandbox, and as such this freedom includes the freedom to engage other players in nonconsensual interactions. Thus it is implicit that by entering the sandbox you must forfeit the freedom to be exempt from such nonconsensual interactions initiated by other players. If a mechanic violates this premise it is broken, as it removes the multiplayer aspect for the player who has exempted themselves, and removes the freedom to interact with that player from everyone else. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.04.13 12:14:00 - [19] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne This game is completely about PVP. 0/10 herd 2 many tyms, gt nu materiul
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.13 16:49:00 - [20] Edited by: Cipher Jones on 13/04/2010 16:50:13 Originally by: Cambarus Now I was almost ready to believe that this wasn't a trollpost, but then you actually went and started arguing semantics and technicalities having nothing to do with the topic at hand. But fine, I'll play your game. This thread was made in response to another thread asking CCP to force people out of NPC corps. By your logic, this should not be a problem because hey, you always have the option of not undocking right? Or rather, it would be more accurate to say that by your logic we should allow people to wardec the NPC corps, because the fact that we can't is an arbitrary limitation that goes against eve's sandbox mentality, and people who don't want to pvp can always just stay docked. The only reason I argued topics not at hand is because posters presented them. I corrected them. I am glad that you can assume why this thread was made, however to think it was made because of one thread shows exactly why you accuse me of "arguing semantics". The title clearly states "sick of", and if you read the forums you know that what I am addressing occurs daily. I clearly stated in the OP that 'Sandbox means open ended as close to free will as you can get'. I did not tell you what my ideal version of that concept is. I was polite when explaining the fallacy in the honorable right gentleman's argument, please re-read the OP and my responses and tell me which part of what I actually posted bothers you. Its easy to at first glance infer that I was trolling, because quite frankly I do troll. However if you re-read what I wrote correctly there should be no discrepancy. This is clearly a signature.

Cambarus The Compass Reloaded	Posted - 2010.04.13 19:40:00 - [21] Originally by: Cipher Jones Originally by: Cambarus The only reason I argued topics not at hand is because posters presented them. I corrected them. I am glad that you can assume why this thread was made, however to think it was made because of one thread shows exactly why you accuse me of "arguing semantics". The title clearly states "sick of", and if you read the forums you know that what I am addressing occurs daily. I clearly stated in the OP that 'Sandbox means open ended as close to free will as you can get'. I did not tell you what my ideal version of that concept is. I was polite when explaining the fallacy in the honorable right gentleman's argument, please re-read the OP and my responses and tell me which part of what I actually posted bothers you. Its easy to at first glance infer that I was trolling, because quite frankly I do troll. However if you re-read what I wrote correctly there should be no discrepancy. If we truely had free will to do whatever in the game, there would be wardecs hitting the NPC corps daily. The fact that this limitation is in place (which you definitely argued against changing in another thread) means we do not have a true sandbox, and my problem with this topic is that it stems from an argument regarding forcing people out of NPC corps where half the people against the idea spew the same old "Well eve is a sandbox and I should get to play it however I want" crap that they do every time someone threatens the way they play the game. The vast majority of the time, the sandbox argument is used to defend limitations that are placed on the game (usually with regards to pvp) because most people don't seem to realize that a true sandbox mentality WOULD allow people to force PVP on others, because not allowing them to is an arbitrary limitation that goes against the whole concept.
Syn Callibri Minmatar Swag Co. Sandbox Bullies	Posted - 2010.04.13 19:51:00 - [22] Edited by: Syn Callibri on 13/04/2010 19:51:18 Originally by: Cipher Jones ...emoragequitter tear residue is known to cause cancer. Chuck Norris' tears cure cancer...too bad he doesn't cry. "I have just as much authority as the empress, just not as many people that believe it."
Tulisin Dragonflame	Posted - 2010.04.13 20:18:00 - [23] People can't understand the difference between the phrases: 1. PvP is a choice in EVE, like most things in EVE. 2. You cannot effectively opt out of PvP in EVE. Because they're both true. You can absolutely choose not to participate in player combat. You can absolute undock without the intention of participating in player combat. If you get jumped, you're not opting-in to PvP, you're being the victim of predatory PvP, it is not the same thing. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the situation, I'm saying "I choose to run missions and not participate in PvP" and "PvP is omnipresent" are both valid statements and realities in EVE.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.13 20:33:00 - [24] Originally by: Cambarus If we truely had free will to do whatever in the game, there would be wardecs hitting the NPC corps daily. The fact that this limitation is in place (which you definitely argued against changing in another thread) means we do not have a true sandbox, and my problem with this topic is that it stems from an argument regarding forcing people out of NPC corps where half the people against the idea spew the same old "Well eve is a sandbox and I should get to play it however I want" crap that they do every time someone threatens the way they play the game. The vast majority of the time, the sandbox argument is used to defend limitations that are placed on the game (usually with regards to pvp) because most people don't seem to realize that a true sandbox mentality WOULD allow people to force PVP on others, because not allowing them to is an arbitrary limitation that goes against the whole concept. You make an assumption in your first sentence and call it a fact in your second sentence. Declaring war against an npc corp would get you concorded if the sandbox was truly open anyway. F A L L A C Y. This is clearly a signature.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.13 20:44:00 - [25] Originally by: Cipher Jones You make an assumption in your first sentence and call it a fact in your second sentence. Declaring war against an npc corp would get you concorded if the sandbox was truly open anyway. F A L L A C Y. That people can't wardec NPC corps isn't a fact? CONCORD pop people who shoot war targets? lolwut? - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Clone 565 Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.04.13 20:46:00 - [26] i am sick of being sick... -CLONE 565, Meaty mask
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.13 20:56:00 - [27] Did you even read the post? Quote: If we truely had free will to do whatever in the game, there would be wardecs hitting the NPC corps daily. The fact that this limitation is in place... That is 100% assumption 0% fact. Inigo is talking to you, not me. This is clearly a signature.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.13 21:01:00 - [28] Originally by: Cipher Jones Did you even read the post? Quote: If we truely had free will to do whatever in the game, there would be wardecs hitting the NPC corps daily. The fact that this limitation is in place... That is 100% assumption 0% fact. The first part is. The second part is not. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
genette devo Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.04.13 21:07:00 - [29] Edited by: genette devo on 13/04/2010 21:10:45 Originally by: Neesa Corrinne If you are playing this game for the PVE, then man you must really have a serious case of OCD cause the PVE in EVE is the most repetitive and completely boring PVE I have ever done in any game. the same could be said of the pvp win or lose is almost always already determined before the ships lock each other, the market is the only part of the game that surpasses the competition, every part of eve is totally lackluster on it's own, it works as a whole because ccp hasn't made them all independent of each other, every activity has an overall context in the whole.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.13 21:10:00 - [30] Originally by: genette devo the same could be said of the pvp win or lose is almost already determined before the ships lock each other Explain how that makes it repetitive or boring. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!

genette devo Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.04.13 21:15:00 - [31] Edited by: genette devo on 13/04/2010 21:24:09 Edited by: genette devo on 13/04/2010 21:17:18 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: genette devo the same could be said of the pvp win or lose is almost already determined before the ships lock each other Explain how that makes it repetitive or boring. the actual fights generally boring, they gain their excitement from their the fact that the outcome actually means something,not the actual kill. gatecamps fleetfights and hulk ganks are just as by the numbers dull as any lvl 4
Montague Zooma Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.13 21:19:00 - [32] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne If you are playing this game for the PVE, then man you must really have a serious case of OCD cause the PVE in EVE is the most repetitive and completely boring PVE I have ever done in any game. I guess one of the only reasons people do EVE PVE is because the vast majority of it can be done solo or while dual boxing while all the games out there with good PVE content require being part of a team. Other than that... man, lvl 4 missions are eye bleedingly dull. You're right, fleet battles where you stare at blank screens, your guns get stuck or don't fire and you can lose your ship a couple of hours after logging off are a lot more fun. PVP has its drawbacks, too.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.13 21:20:00 - [33] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 13/04/2010 21:21:57 Originally by: genette devo the actual fights generally boring, they gain their excitement This is confusing. Originally by: genette devo gatecamps fleetfights and hulk ganks are just as by the numbers dull as any lvl 4 Particularly unimaginative subsets of PvP are boring. I doubt the best missions can match the best PvP though. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Stinky McPoopyPants	Posted - 2010.04.13 21:26:00 - [34] Everytime i hear someone call eve a 'sandbox' i want pull down my pants and take a poo on that persons head. Eve is about as far from a sandbox game as you can get. You want a sandbox? go play SecondLife.com Eve is no where near being a sandbox. Not even a little bit close.
genette devo Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.04.13 21:28:00 - [35] Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 13/04/2010 21:21:57 Originally by: genette devo the actual fights generally boring, they gain their excitement This is confusing. what i mean is, if taken on their own without the overall sandbox context they are boring fights when compared to pure combat games like battlefield, CoD, counterstrike...... they become exciting only due to the fact that people dont respawn in full kit at the end of a match, that you can actually hurt others or be hurt by them.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.13 21:33:00 - [36] Originally by: genette devo what i mean is, if taken on their own without the overall sandbox context they are boring fights I agree with this. However, they cannot be taken on their own, as that is how EVE works. And, CoD and similar, taken only in the (nonexistant) overall context, are also boring as fights achieve nothing. OTOH, most PvE, sandbox context and all, is pretty boring. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Ryhss Caldari 42nd Airborn	Posted - 2010.04.13 21:49:00 - [37] Originally by: Zartrader Originally by: Felix Esperium I think this thread is a lie. There is no sand in Eve... how would the tape stick to my rifter if there was sand everywhere? Mmmm, that could explain why my Rifter falls apart when it comes across another ship. Do you wipe it off?
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.13 21:50:00 - [38] Originally by: Stinky McPoopyPants Everytime i hear someone call eve a 'sandbox' i want pull down my pants and take a poo on that persons head. Eve is about as far from a sandbox game as you can get. You want a sandbox? go play SecondLife.com Eve is no where near being a sandbox. Not even a little bit close. I am sure the devs appreciate the ol' poo on the nugget. Timeless gag. This is clearly a signature.
Ryhss Caldari 42nd Airborn	Posted - 2010.04.13 22:02:00 - [39] Originally by: Crumplecorn EVE is a sandbox, and so it is indeed about freedom, but it is a multiplayer sandbox, and as such this freedom includes the freedom to engage other players in nonconsensual interactions. Thus it is implicit that by entering the sandbox you must forfeit the freedom to be exempt from such nonconsensual interactions initiated by other players. If a mechanic violates this premise it is broken, as it removes the multiplayer aspect for the player who has exempted themselves, and removes the freedom to interact with that player from everyone else. I hate non consensual pvp, BUT I agree with this.
Hecatonis	Posted - 2010.04.13 22:14:00 - [40] wow a thread that is decent enough to waste my time posting in, very rare in GD. i agree with the OP, many of the arguments used here is just so wrong, granted most arguments on the internet are wrong. People forget to really think what a sandbox game is when they make arguments like "everyone should be forced to ______" well the problem with that is you are removing choice when you do things like that. A sandbox game should have as few rules as possible and a scaling bar of safety, eve does a really good job at this. we have highsec, low sec and nul sec, and NPC corp, yes i say an NPC corp is its own section of the game. none is 100% safe, and each have their own rules, but not many at all. we are not forced out of any section unless we want to go, and we can choose to play in the rules that are put out for us. (and now for a rant/troll comment, stop reading here if you dont want/care and dont come *ing to me if it offends you. you have been warned) why is it the low sec players ***** the most about this. really guys come on and get over yourself. the highsec/NPC corp players and nul sec players get along just fine, we flood the market with extra ore and goods driving the prices down, everyone loves the cheaper stuff, (well excect the people making them in a market that is saturated but really you should be doing it then? :P ) and we never see each other. but then there is the lowsec players that like to fly around whining about how they have no targets, well fight each other or is that too much of a challenge? we might be carebears, but we never deny that fact. people that look for easy kills are even worse because they cant seem to understand that this makes them an even worse kind of carebear.

Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.13 22:31:00 - [41] Originally by: Hecatonis People forget to really think what a sandbox game is when they make arguments like "everyone should be forced to ______" well the problem with that is you are removing choice when you do things like that. A sandbox game should have as few rules as possible In that case NPC corps should be abolished, as we will be removing the rule that NPC corp members cannot be war decced, thus having fewer rules, and everyone will have the option to war dec them, meaning people will have more choices. Instead, even after saying this, you advocate forcing everyone to leave NPC corp members in relative peace. People promoting PvP don't forget what a sandbox is. People who want to hide in NPC corps forget that every freedom given takes away another, and so which ones are kept and which are discarded must be evaluated against the concept of the game. Originally by: Hecatonis we flood the market with extra ore and goods driving the prices down, everyone loves the cheaper stuff, (well excect the people making them in a market that is saturated but really you should be doing it then? :P ) Hm, so you should be free to play however you like, and if it screws up someone else's playstyle then they are doing it wrong? That's exactly the thinking carebears accuse PvPers of having. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Hecatonis	Posted - 2010.04.13 22:53:00 - [42] Originally by: Crumplecorn People promoting PvP don't forget what a sandbox is. People who want to hide in NPC corps forget that every freedom given takes away another, and so which ones are kept and which are discarded must be evaluated against the concept of the game. your right its a give and take, theirs is that they cannot war dec others pay greater taxes and loose the benefit of corp sec standing. what you are looking for is easier targets, you are welcome to kill their ships as much as you want, it will just cause your ship. live with it. Originally by: Crumplecorn Hm, so you should be free to play however you like, and if it screws up someone else's playstyle then they are doing it wrong? That's exactly the thinking carebears accuse PvPers of having. lol this is a great post, as i said above, you are free kill their ships, you will just loose yours. does that screw up YOUR play style? and is that wrong? go find yourself a real target man, it will far more entertaining for you :)
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.13 23:04:00 - [43] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 13/04/2010 23:06:23 Originally by: Neesa Corrinne If you are playing this game for the PVE, then man you must really have a serious case of OCD cause the PVE in EVE is the most repetitive and completely boring PVE I have ever done in any game. I guess one of the only reasons people do EVE PVE is because the vast majority of it can be done solo or while dual boxing while all the games out there with good PVE content require being part of a team. Other than that... man, lvl 4 missions are eye bleedingly dull. Ah, you must be one of those iimbeciles that swear fun is an absolute and that coincidentally your fun is the right one. One day you'll grow up and come to the realization that "fun" is relative to one's taste and in fact it is not a value attached soley to your perceived world and the universe you swear revolves around it. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.13 23:17:00 - [44] Originally by: Hecatonis Presumptuous crap You neither know my agenda nor apparently have the capacity to bring any actual arguments to the table. Good day to you. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.13 23:25:00 - [45] Quote: If we truely had free will to do whatever in the game, there would be wardecs hitting the NPC corps daily. The fact that this limitation is in place (which you definitely argued against changing in another thread) means we do not have a true sandbox, and my problem with this topic is that it stems from an argument regarding forcing people out of NPC corps where half the people against the idea spew the same old "Well eve is a sandbox and I should get to play it however I want" crap that they do every time someone threatens the way they play the game. I snipped the quote before, thats the whole sentence. "You can't war dec npc corps" is indeed fact, however "You cant war dec npc corps because" is opinion. This is clearly a signature.
Hecatonis	Posted - 2010.04.13 23:28:00 - [46] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Hecatonis Presumptuous crap You neither know my agenda nor apparently have the capacity to bring any actual arguments to the table. Good day to you. 0/10 try harder next time. just because i dont agree with you and i am just as unmoving on my view as you are with yours doesnt mean you have to resort to poor trolling. the ONLY purpose of removing people from NPC corps is to make them possible war targets, nothing more. please dont pretend its anything else. good day t oyou as well and fly safe :)
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.13 23:29:00 - [47] Originally by: Cipher Jones "You cant war dec npc corps because" is opinion. I see no 'because'. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.13 23:46:00 - [48] Originally by: Hecatonis just because i dont agree with you and i am just as unmoving on my view as you are with yours doesnt mean you have to resort to poor trolling. No. The bulk of your post being presumptuous crap does however. Originally by: Hecatonis the ONLY purpose of removing people from NPC corps is to make them possible war targets, nothing more. please dont pretend its anything else. Everyone must have an agenda, right? Since I have some time to kill, I will elucidate for your benefit the worthlessness of the 'argument' you put forth: your right its a give and take, theirs is that they cannot war dec others So their cost for avoiding PvP is being unable to PvP? Stunning. pay greater taxes So they have to grind in near total safety a little longer? How awful. Though this addition is a step in the right direction. corp sec standing Corp sec standing? Do you mean 'corp standing'? As in, that thing that allows you to get standings without grinding? A terrible loss to those who grind all day. you are welcome to kill their ships as much as you want, it will just ~~cause~~ cost you your ship. A privilege no other group receives, which is the point. There is no real cost to being in an NPC corp, it is simply a method of exempting yourself from a basic principle of the game, curtailing the freedoms of everyone else in the process. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.13 23:57:00 - [49] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Cipher Jones "You cant war dec npc corps because" is opinion. I see no 'because'. Well usually when you explain something like that 'because' is implied. CCP did not make the game 100% open ended, and any speculation as to why is indeed speculation. It was already stated twice that the game was made as close to open ended as CCP made it, not 100%. Since we were already past that my only logical assumption is that was posted to explain why. Either way I agree that there are limitations to the game. Point of the thread is that limiting other players experience to give you what you want is against the spirit of what CCP was trying to accomplish I M H O. In a nutshell its like saying "in this game you must fight, not run because I want to fight you". Bull****. If you want to fight me you have to catch me first. This is clearly a signature.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:03:00 - [50] Quote: There is no real cost to being in an NPC corp, At this point you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that your intel officers have failed and need to walk the plank. It costs 11% of your bounty to be in an NPC corp. This is clearly a signature.

Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:05:00 - [51] Originally by: Cipher Jones Well usually when you explain something like that 'because' is implied. I see no implied because either. Simply a highlight of the likely difference between real EVE and a truer 'free will EVE'. Originally by: Cipher Jones Point of the thread is that limiting other players experience to give you what you want is against the spirit of what CCP was trying to accomplish I M H O. I agree. So I take it you agree that people shouldn't be able to hide from PvPers just because they want to play in safety? Originally by: Cipher Jones In a nutshell its like saying "in this game you must fight, not run because I want to fight you". Bull****. If you want to fight me you have to catch me first. I agree. And I take it you agree that 'I' should be able to chase you, which is effectively not the case with NPC corps as they are? - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:07:00 - [52] Originally by: Cipher Jones Quote: There is no real cost to being in an NPC corp, At this point you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that your intel officers have failed and need to walk the plank. It costs 11% of your bounty to be in an NPC corp. And as I pointed out, but will generously point out again, what does it matter if you have to grind a little longer when you can do so in safety anyway? - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:14:00 - [53] Originally by: Crumplecorn And as I pointed out, but will generously point out again, what does it matter if you have to grind a little longer when you can do so in safety anyway? And? So what if players can grind in relative safety? What do you want to happen once someone goes through a losing streak and can't PVP, quit? There's nothing wrong with being able to grind. It keeps PVP alive. The only thing your idea will accomplish is create an end game where when you go broke that's it. You lost. Quit. Because if you try and grind and lose again you'll continue digging yourself into the red. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:19:00 - [54] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 And? So what if players can grind in relative safety? So... nothing? I merely said that having to do a little extra grinding on top of your grinding is no real cost. Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 You have to be in an NPC corp to grind ISK News to me. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:23:00 - [55] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 14/04/2010 00:24:32 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 You have to be in an NPC corp to grind ISK News to me. WTF? Why are you making up quotes about stuff I haven't said at all . Dude, no need to make **** up. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Cambarus The Compass Reloaded	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:30:00 - [56] Originally by: Cipher Jones Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Cipher Jones "You cant war dec npc corps because" is opinion. I see no 'because'. Well usually when you explain something like that 'because' is implied. CCP did not make the game 100% open ended, and any speculation as to why is indeed speculation. It was already stated twice that the game was made as close to open ended as CCP made it, not 100%. Since we were already past that my only logical assumption is that was posted to explain why. Either way I agree that there are limitations to the game. Point of the thread is that limiting other players experience to give you what you want is against the spirit of what CCP was trying to accomplish I M H O. In a nutshell its like saying "in this game you must fight, not run because I want to fight you". Bull****. If you want to fight me you have to catch me first. You seem to misunderstand my argument. It's actually not even one that has to do specifically with wardecs, but rather the fact that people like to use the whole concept of a sandbox to defend something that goes against the very idea. The point is, a true sandbox would not have such arbitrary limitations like the NPC wardec immunity, so claiming that removing said immunity would be wrong because eve is a sandbox and you should get to play however you want is flat out wrong. WHY CCP made NPC corps the way they did is irrelevant, and at no point mentioned in my argument. All we know is that CCP made the NPC corps a certain way, and that they are not happy with the way they harbor so many people from wars/other player corp stuff. As for the limitations comment, the whole argument brought fourth by most people looking to nerf NPC corps is that they interfere with THEIR playstyle. And while they tend to offer other arguments to support their claims, most of the carebears just whine about how the game shouldn't be about forcing stuff on them, when the very point they're trying to defend is about forcing limitations on others. I'd say that "what CCP were trying to accomplish" is a mostly PVP focused game that acts as a cold, harsh universe. Difference between my opinions and yours is that mine is based on game mechanics, dev statements and experience. With regards to the nutsell comment: The problem with suicide ganking is even if you win, you lose. This will become even more true when they nerf insurance. The sec status issue has never been a problem for me, because I'm 1 part pvper 2 parts carebear, and my missions keep my sec status healthy enough for the occasional gank. Wardecs also allow you to harass trade routes fueling enemies in nullsec, or fight someone to scare them away from a certain area. Wardecs offer much more than just the ability to shoot people. But the comparison you made makes no sense. It's easy to avoid wardecs, and just as easy to avoid wartargets, so it's not like you can't run when at war. The problem lies with the fact that you can completely shield yourself from wardecs with no effort or skill required. Catching people isn't the problem, it's the god-mode-wardec-100%-immunity that NPC corps offer.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:43:00 - [57] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 14/04/2010 00:24:32 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 You have to be in an NPC corp to grind ISK News to me. WTF? Why are you making up quotes about stuff I haven't said at all . Dude, no need to make **** up. You made exactly that implication. This thread is about NPC corps, with varying levels of transparency, and is thus unrelated to people's ability to recover from losses. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:47:00 - [58] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 14/04/2010 00:51:12 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 14/04/2010 00:49:02 Originally by: Crumplecorn You made exactly that implication. This thread is about NPC corps, with varying levels of transparency, and is thus unrelated to people's ability to recover from losses. And you made a comment specifically about grinding. And I gave you my opinion on your comment about grinding. No where did I imply grinding is exlusive to NPC corps. I just stated that there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with grinding in safety. In fact, there should be a zone where you could recover from your losses. YOU were the one that brought up the whole argument about grinding, not me. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:54:00 - [59] Edited by: Cipher Jones on 14/04/2010 00:56:35 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Cipher Jones Quote: There is no real cost to being in an NPC corp, At this point you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that your intel officers have failed and need to walk the plank. It costs 11% of your bounty to be in an NPC corp. And as I pointed out, but will generously point out again, what does it matter if you have to grind a little longer when you can do so in safety anyway? Whatever, you're saying 2 different things. Theres no real cost to being in an NPC corp is a false statement. Your perception is that said cost is not real. Thank you for your generosity. Im no longer answering "what this thread is about" posts as it has been clearly defined. I have no stake in the NPC corp argument other than it is related to peoples misconception of the sandbox. I can see however that people are passionate about it. This is clearly a signature.
Hecatonis	Posted - 2010.04.14 00:59:00 - [60] Originally by: Crumplecorn No. The bulk of your post being presumptuous crap does however. lol, quick question are you this easily offended in RL? you need to chill bro. Originally by: Crumplecorn Since I have some time to kill, I will elucidate for your benefit the worthlessness of the 'argument' you put forth: using big words doesn't help your case it makes you look pedantic ;) Originally by: Crumplecorn pay greater taxes So they have to grind in near total safety a little longer? How awful. Though this addition is a step in the right direction. yes it takes longer to get the money they need, this slows their growth and lowers their efficiency, thats a downside btw. Originally by: Crumplecorn corp sec standing Corp sec standing? Do you mean 'corp standing'? As in, that thing that allows you to get standings without grinding? A terrible loss to those who grind all day. i assuming you have not done the grind before, its dam boring i am happy to be able to run decent missions for many corps because of my corp. coming from a mission grinder, its really nice. Originally by: Crumplecorn you are welcome to kill their ships as much as you want, it will just ~~cause~~ cost you your ship. A privilege no other group receives, which is the point. yes it is the point, they dont want to PvP, nor would they be any good at it or in a ship that could, your still looking for an easy kill carebear. Originally by: Crumplecorn There is no real cost to being in an NPC corp, it is simply a method of exempting yourself from a basic principle of the game, curtailing the freedoms of everyone else in the process. except for slowing down the development of their char. and in this game its the only benchmark to go by in this game. and your freedom is not being curtailed drama queen, you will just have to look for harder targets to kill. get over yourself :)

Cambarus The Compass Reloaded	Posted - 2010.04.14 01:05:00 - [61] Originally by: Hecatonis Bunch of crumplecorn stuff You DO know that it's not just carebears and new players that hide in corps yeh? They also make a great hiding place for just about anyone looking to avoid a wardec, and there's no way to prevent it. Have a look at what I posted in the NPC corp thread to see what I'm getting at.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.14 01:10:00 - [62] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 14/04/2010 01:11:11 Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: Hecatonis Bunch of crumplecorn stuff You DO know that it's not just carebears and new players that hide in corps yeh? They also make a great hiding place for just about anyone looking to avoid a wardec, and there's no way to prevent it. Have a look at what I posted in the NPC corp thread to see what I'm getting at. This is true. However, removing the safety NPC corps offer WILL negatively impact carebears more than any of the other playerbase. So arguing that kicking players from NPC corps will fix one problem will only end up exacerbating another. The wardecing machanics need a serious overhaul before even considering a nerf to NPC corps. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.14 01:10:00 - [63] Originally by: Hecatonis using big words doesn't help your case it makes you look pedantic ;) I am pedantic. Originally by: Hecatonis yes it takes longer to get the money they need, this slows their growth and lowers their efficiency, thats a downside btw. And you think being in an NPC corp doesn't increase their efficiency and speed their growth in the first place? That's the entire reason they are there. That's an upside btw. Originally by: Hecatonis i assuming you have not done the grind before, its dam boring i am happy to be able to run decent missions for many corps because of my corp. coming from a mission grinder, its really nice. Nonetheless, someone who only wants to grind having to do more grinding is hardly a dealbreaker. Originally by: Hecatonis yes it is the point, they dont want to PvP, nor would they be any good at it or in a ship that could, your still looking for an easy kill carebear. I'm not looking for anything. But keep being presumptuous, it just highlights that you have no leg to stand on. Originally by: Hecatonis except for slowing down the development of their char See above. If it actually caused a net slowdown in their growth, they would leave and put up with wardecs instead. Originally by: Hecatonis your freedom is not being curtailed Can I dec them? No. Simple fact. Originally by: Hecatonis drama queen, you will just have to look for harder targets to kill. get over yourself :) Ad hominems don't help your case, they just make you look stupid. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.04.14 01:11:00 - [64] Originally by: Hecatonis yes it takes longer to get the money they need, this slows their growth and lowers their efficiency, thats a downside btw. No, it's not. In other MMOs when you find or gain an item it's there forever. When you die you retain all you had prior to death and it is rendered mostly useless. EVE is different and beloved by many that play it for it's allowance of causing loss to yourself and others. Slowing the "growth" of others is basically all people do in this game all the time. Even when people build up ISK it is often to purposely put it in jeopardy for the chance to slow others total wealth one ship at a time. Rather than a downside it is in fact everything this game has going for it. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.14 01:15:00 - [65] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 And you made a comment specifically about grinding. No, I made a comment about the 'cost' of NPC corps which referenced grinding. Originally by: Cipher Jones Theres no real cost to being in an NPC corp is a false statement. And yet when I shoot down some supposed costs, your response is 'Whatever' and an assertion. Interesting. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Hecatonis	Posted - 2010.04.14 01:18:00 - [66] Originally by: Crumplecorn lets make up quotes for other people so my points seem better dude i am done with you. if you have to resort to quote modding then you have not only lost the argument, but also credibility. good night sir and get some better material
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.14 01:22:00 - [67] Originally by: Hecatonis Originally by: Crumplecorn lets make up quotes for other people so my points seem better dude i am done with you. if you have to resort to quote modding then you have not only lost the argument, but also credibility. good night sir and get some better material He did the same to me. Just made something up, added quotes around it, filled it up with straws and knocked it down in one punch . Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Namdor Amarr The Gentlemen's Corporation	Posted - 2010.04.14 01:29:00 - [68] The OP definitely has a point. "B-b-b-but Eve is a SANDBOX!" is the go-to assertion for every idiot who lacks a cogent argument to support their position, and its employment is usually a non sequitur. "Eve is a sandbox, force players to leave NPC corps!" "Eve is a sandbox, ban hi-sec ganking!" "Eve is a sandbox, make people leave hi-sec!" "Eve is a sandbox, remove T2 BPOs!" I honestly can't think of a "hot topic" where "It's a sandbox!" hasn't been employed as an argument. Hell, it's usually employed by both sides of the same debate.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.14 01:35:00 - [69] Originally by: Namdor The OP definitely has a point. "B-b-b-but Eve is a SANDBOX!" is the go-to assertion for every idiot who lacks a cogent argument to support their position, and its employment is usually a non sequitur. "Eve is a sandbox, force players to leave NPC corps!" "Eve is a sandbox, ban hi-sec ganking!" "Eve is a sandbox, make people leave hi-sec!" "Eve is a sandbox, remove T2 BPOs!" I honestly can't think of a "hot topic" where "It's a sandbox!" hasn't been employed as an argument. Hell, it's usually employed by both sides of the same debate. Well said. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Ascendic Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.04.14 03:12:00 - [70] Originally by: Felix Esperium I think this thread is a lie. There is no sand in Eve... how would the tape stick to my rifter if there was sand everywhere? i lol'd

Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2010.04.14 09:12:00 - [71] Edited by: Wacktopia on 14/04/2010 09:13:12 Originally by: Cipher Jones NPC corps are not broken. Yes they are. They turn the game into a 'space game with a chat window' and discourage the player base from really engaging in what CCP want the game to be (according to all of their marketing). Originally by: Cipher Jones Hisec is not broken. No but it could be made a lot better. One of the ways in which it could be improved would be to limit anything but basic access to the planetary features to only players in player-run corps. This would allow for Hi-sec planetary interaction to be territorial rather than just another risk-less, mindless ISK source. Originally by: Cipher Jones Level 4 missions are not broken. The only part that was broken was the loot tables, which have allegedly been fixed in the upcoming patch. Yes they are. Level 4 missions are boring as hell and have virtually no risk to them. I run L4's for ISK and you know what I do? I warp in, I agro the room, I launch my drones and then I go and make some food or read a book. When I come back I collect the goodies and head home 30 mil richer. Granted, there needs to be a mechanic to allow for small corps or solo players to make is in the game but L4's are just so mindless. Originally by: Cipher Jones Sandbox means open ended as close to free will as you can get. Yes. So having mechanics that limit free will is the opposite of the 'sandbox' you so loathe and hate. So, a player in an NPC corp is 'free' to steal from other players or insult them but the other players are not 'free' to rage war upon that player? Edit: 'there' fail. The shame.
Learol	Posted - 2010.04.14 14:04:00 - [72] The only way to balance removing non-consensual pvp from highsec space would be with a severe highec nerf, and IÆm pretty sure very few of the highsec corps (however grief stricken) would agree to that, although I probably would myself.
Hecatonis	Posted - 2010.04.14 15:27:00 - [73] Originally by: Learol The only way to balance removing non-consensual pvp from highsec space would be with a severe highec nerf, and IÆm pretty sure very few of the highsec corps (however grief stricken) would agree to that, although I probably would myself. no one is saying that, the entire point of this thread is about how people use the phrase "its a sandbox" incorrectly.
Shogun Jack's	Posted - 2010.04.14 16:49:00 - [74] Wouw, my first time i go look at this forums. I think i am better not Seems that people just forget enjoying the game as it is At least thats the reason i play it, and enjoying it!! [even a pve player] /emote go sit behind the wall again
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.14 16:59:00 - [75] Originally by: Learol The only way to balance removing non-consensual pvp from highsec space would be with a severe highec nerf, and I’m pretty sure very few of the highsec corps (however grief stricken) would agree to that, although I probably would myself. I don't want to remove non consensual PvP from the game whatsoever. I want people to quit crying "sandbox" when they attempt non consensual PvP and do not succeed to get their kill. Like when someone actually has the brains to run evasion modules instead of damage. I had non consensual PvP twice this week so far, won one and lost one. Its fun **. However I dont cry "sandbox" when I lose. I STFU and buy a new ship. It's part of the sandbox when someone "jumps" me and I take them out, its part of the sandbox when I get AFK ganked because I thought nobody would bother to scan down a cruiser while I fiddled with real life for a minute. Quote: Yes they are. They turn the game into a 'space game with a chat window' and discourage the player base from really engaging in what CCP want the game to be (according to all of their marketing). CCP says they need adjusted slightly, fine, adjust them. You dont adjust something thats broken, you fix it. Quote: Yes they are. Level 4 missions are boring as hell and have virtually no risk to them. I run L4's for ISK and you know what I do? I warp in, I agro the room, I launch my drones and then I go and make some food or read a book. When I come back I collect the goodies and head home 30 mil richer. Granted, there needs to be a mechanic to allow for small corps or solo players to make is in the game but L4's are just so mindless. It takes a hell of an investment in time and plenty of risk in getting to level 4 missions. By the time you get to the point where you can aggro the whole room and win eve online in 30 minutes you have invested months of gametime and hundreds of millions if not billions of isk. The risk to reward ratio is fine. Again, CCP said the loot tables were the IMBA in level 4's, and again I trust CCP over you. No offense. Quote:** Yes. So having mechanics that limit free will is the opposite of the 'sandbox' you so loathe and hate. So, a player in an NPC corp is 'free' to steal from other players or insult them but the other players are not 'free' to rage war upon that player? You are an arrogant ass to assume I hate the sandbox concept. CCP has stated that salvage does not belong to you ingame. You are absolutely free to wage war on anyone at anytime in eve. You seem upset that you cannot declare war on individual people, however. As I stated in the NPC corp thread, I wish they would let you (declare war on an NPC corp to get at a single person). It would be fun to see your entire corporation instapwned by the powerful NPC corps that have been around for hundreds of years and have fleets of battleships and untold riches. If you want the sandbox to be truly open ended this is what would happen. This is clearly a signature.
Jeneroux Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.14 17:09:00 - [76] Could be litter box.. why care what is called? I play how I choose.. no justification required for anyone.. is my money.
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.04.14 23:36:00 - [77] Originally by: Cipher Jones It takes a hell of an investment in time and plenty of risk in getting to level 4 missions. By the time you get to the point where you can aggro the whole room and win eve online in 30 minutes you have invested months of gametime and hundreds of millions if not billions of isk. The risk to reward ratio is fine. Again, CCP said the loot tables were the IMBA in level 4's, and again I trust CCP over you. No offense. Are you being sarcastic or do you really believe it is actually hard, challenging, risky, and/or one hell of an investment to run lvl 4s? "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Doomed Predator GK inc. Panda Team	Posted - 2010.04.15 00:51:00 - [78] Originally by: Cipher Jones It takes a hell of an investment in time and plenty of risk in getting to level 4 missions. By the time you get to the point where you can aggro the whole room and win eve online in 30 minutes you have invested months of gametime and hundreds of millions if not billions of isk. The risk to reward ratio is fine. Again, CCP said the loot tables were the IMBA in level 4's, and again I trust CCP over you. No offense. Bolded the funny bit. If you actually believe that instead of trying to troll more I fell bad for you. There is no need to aggro the whole room and you don't win EVE by doing that and surviving. You seem to throw the word sandbox around a whole lot. What you don't get that people always want better tools in the sandbox to do their thing and special rules just for them. So of course you'll see insane whines like how horribly wrong suicide ganking and how people should be forced to low sec/0.0 . The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again
Cambarus The Compass Reloaded	Posted - 2010.04.15 01:11:00 - [79] Originally by: Cipher Jones I don't want to remove non consensual PvP from the game whatsoever. I want people to quit crying "sandbox" when they attempt non consensual PvP and do not succeed to get their kill. Like when someone actually has the brains to run evasion modules instead of damage. I had non consensual PvP twice this week so far, won one and lost one. Its fun **. However I dont cry "sandbox" when I lose. I STFU and buy a new ship. It's part of the sandbox when someone "jumps" me and I take them out, its part of the sandbox when I get AFK ganked because I thought nobody would bother to scan down a cruiser while I fiddled with real life for a minute. The reason people are using the sandbox argument with regards to forced pvp, especially with regards to wardecs, is that despite them being easy to avoid (both with ingame and metagame methods) but we still have this unneeded mechanic that makes people completely immune to wardecs. That's not skill, that's not cunning, it's just pushing the invulnerability button (and given that it's not possible under reasonable circumstances to suicide someone on your own in the same shipclass, it kind of drives the point home that suicide ganking is not a reasonable way to get kills, because you can't deny the power of a mechanic that makes you invulnerable to anyone not in a fleet of at least 3-4 people per person they want dead, or in a ship that costs 50X as much) The problem isn't one of attempting non-consensual pvp, but rather one of not being able to. Originally by:** Cipher Jones CCP says they need adjusted slightly, fine, adjust them. You dont adjust something thats broken, you fix it. CCP have also said that the way NPC corps are being used is not the way they intended them to be used. Something not working the way it should = something that is broken and needs fixing. Originally by: Cipher Jones It takes a hell of an investment in time and plenty of risk in getting to level 4 missions. By the time you get to the point where you can aggro the whole room and win eve online in 30 minutes you have invested months of gametime and hundreds of millions if not billions of isk. The risk to reward ratio is fine. Again, CCP said the loot tables were the IMBA in level 4's, and again I trust CCP over you. No offense. This is such a terrible argument and there are so many people who've already lolled at it I almost feel bad countering it... It takes a month, and about 100mil, to get a character from having nothing to being able to solo lvl 4s. I know this because I have ran a total of 4 dominix alts over the years, and even with minimal support skills they can get through any lvl 4 mission. Granted, this is with previous knowledge of the game, (not going to mention the isk involved because I had about 70mil to my name a month after starting) Also, if you trust CCP, then you must also trust that NPC corps are broken, because CCP have explicitly said that they're meant to be just temporary corps used until you can find a player run corp... Originally by: Cipher Jones As I stated in the NPC corp thread, I wish they would let you (declare war on an NPC corp to get at a single person). It would be fun to see your entire corporation instapwned by the powerful NPC corps that have been around for hundreds of years and have fleets of battleships and untold riches. If you want the sandbox to be truly open ended this is what would happen. Why would NPCs be involved in this? And even if they were, we stomp empire NPCs every time we run faction-oriented missions, why would they suddenly develop the ability to instagibb an entire corp?
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.15 01:41:00 - [80] Quote: This is such a terrible argument and there are so many people who've already lolled at it I almost feel bad countering it... It takes a month, and about 100mil, to get a character from having nothing to being able to solo lvl 4s. You equate being able to solo level 4's to making 30 mil ISK an hour, so obviously theres no talking to you. Youre not even a little bit serious. You know everything about eve and I'm a troll. I'm emo ragequitting my own thread now because its america and I can. To all the people who silently lol'd me behind my back, I'm suing you. /wrists This is clearly a signature.

Cambarus The Compass Reloaded	Posted - 2010.04.15 02:10:00 - [81] Edited by: Cambarus on 15/04/2010 02:11:01 Originally by: Cipher Jones Quote: This is such a terrible argument and there are so many people who've already lolled at it I almost feel bad countering it... It takes a month, and about 100mil, to get a character from having nothing to being able to solo lvl 4s. You equate being able to solo level 4's to making 30 mil ISK an hour, so obviously theres no talking to you. Youre not even a little bit serious. You know everything about eve and I'm a troll. I'm emo ragequitting my own thread now because its america and I can. To all the people who silently lol'd me behind my back, I'm suing you. /wrists Originally by: Cipher Jones It takes a hell of an investment in time and plenty of risk in getting to level 4 missions. By the time you get to the point where you can aggro the whole room and win eve online in 30 minutes you have invested months of gametime and hundreds of millions if not billions of isk. The risk to reward ratio is fine. Bolded and underlined the important bits. Yes it takes a lot of isk and SP to be able to clear a mission in 30 minutes but it's still the same set of missions you've been running since 2 months in with 5mil SP. Also, given that the original context of the argument had to do moreso with grinding the standings than the actual missions themselves (unless you're referring to the actual risk involved in running a lvl 4 mission, which is just slightly above zero) the issue of how quickly you run lvl 4s is irrelevant, because you're running lvl 50 instances at lvl 100, obviously you're going to do them better and faster than a lvl 50...


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