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So sick of hearing peoples sandbox fallacies.

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Cambarus The Compass Reloaded	Posted - 2010.04.14 01:05:00 - [61] Originally by: Hecatonis Bunch of crumplecorn stuff You DO know that it's not just carebears and new players that hide in corps yeh? They also make a great hiding place for just about anyone looking to avoid a wardec, and there's no way to prevent it. Have a look at what I posted in the NPC corp thread to see what I'm getting at.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.14 01:10:00 - [62] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 14/04/2010 01:11:11 Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: Hecatonis Bunch of crumplecorn stuff You DO know that it's not just carebears and new players that hide in corps yeh? They also make a great hiding place for just about anyone looking to avoid a wardec, and there's no way to prevent it. Have a look at what I posted in the NPC corp thread to see what I'm getting at. This is true. However, removing the safety NPC corps offer WILL negatively impact carebears more than any of the other playerbase. So arguing that kicking players from NPC corps will fix one problem will only end up exacerbating another. The wardecing machanics need a serious overhaul before even considering a nerf to NPC corps. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.14 01:10:00 - [63] Originally by: Hecatonis using big words doesn't help your case it makes you look pedantic ;) I am pedantic. Originally by: Hecatonis yes it takes longer to get the money they need, this slows their growth and lowers their efficiency, thats a downside btw. And you think being in an NPC corp doesn't increase their efficiency and speed their growth in the first place? That's the entire reason they are there. That's an upside btw. Originally by: Hecatonis i assuming you have not done the grind before, its dam boring i am happy to be able to run decent missions for many corps because of my corp. coming from a mission grinder, its really nice. Nonetheless, someone who only wants to grind having to do more grinding is hardly a dealbreaker. Originally by: Hecatonis yes it is the point, they dont want to PvP, nor would they be any good at it or in a ship that could, your still looking for an easy kill carebear. I'm not looking for anything. But keep being presumptuous, it just highlights that you have no leg to stand on. Originally by: Hecatonis except for slowing down the development of their char See above. If it actually caused a net slowdown in their growth, they would leave and put up with wardecs instead. Originally by: Hecatonis your freedom is not being curtailed Can I dec them? No. Simple fact. Originally by: Hecatonis drama queen, you will just have to look for harder targets to kill. get over yourself :) Ad hominems don't help your case, they just make you look stupid. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.04.14 01:11:00 - [64] Originally by: Hecatonis yes it takes longer to get the money they need, this slows their growth and lowers their efficiency, thats a downside btw. No, it's not. In other MMOs when you find or gain an item it's there forever. When you die you retain all you had prior to death and it is rendered mostly useless. EVE is different and beloved by many that play it for it's allowance of causing loss to yourself and others. Slowing the "growth" of others is basically all people do in this game all the time. Even when people build up ISK it is often to purposely put it in jeopardy for the chance to slow others total wealth one ship at a time. Rather than a downside it is in fact everything this game has going for it. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.14 01:15:00 - [65] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 And you made a comment specifically about grinding. No, I made a comment about the 'cost' of NPC corps which referenced grinding. Originally by: Cipher Jones Theres no real cost to being in an NPC corp is a false statement. And yet when I shoot down some supposed costs, your response is 'Whatever' and an assertion. Interesting. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Hecatonis	Posted - 2010.04.14 01:18:00 - [66] Originally by: Crumplecorn lets make up quotes for other people so my points seem better dude i am done with you. if you have to resort to quote modding then you have not only lost the argument, but also credibility. good night sir and get some better material
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.14 01:22:00 - [67] Originally by: Hecatonis Originally by: Crumplecorn lets make up quotes for other people so my points seem better dude i am done with you. if you have to resort to quote modding then you have not only lost the argument, but also credibility. good night sir and get some better material He did the same to me. Just made something up, added quotes around it, filled it up with straws and knocked it down in one punch . Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Namdor Amarr The Gentlemen's Corporation	Posted - 2010.04.14 01:29:00 - [68] The OP definitely has a point. "B-b-b-but Eve is a SANDBOX!" is the go-to assertion for every idiot who lacks a cogent argument to support their position, and its employment is usually a non sequitur. "Eve is a sandbox, force players to leave NPC corps!" "Eve is a sandbox, ban hi-sec ganking!" "Eve is a sandbox, make people leave hi-sec!" "Eve is a sandbox, remove T2 BPOs!" I honestly can't think of a "hot topic" where "It's a sandbox!" hasn't been employed as an argument. Hell, it's usually employed by both sides of the same debate.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.14 01:35:00 - [69] Originally by: Namdor The OP definitely has a point. "B-b-b-but Eve is a SANDBOX!" is the go-to assertion for every idiot who lacks a cogent argument to support their position, and its employment is usually a non sequitur. "Eve is a sandbox, force players to leave NPC corps!" "Eve is a sandbox, ban hi-sec ganking!" "Eve is a sandbox, make people leave hi-sec!" "Eve is a sandbox, remove T2 BPOs!" I honestly can't think of a "hot topic" where "It's a sandbox!" hasn't been employed as an argument. Hell, it's usually employed by both sides of the same debate. Well said. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Ascendic Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.04.14 03:12:00 - [70] Originally by: Felix Esperium I think this thread is a lie. There is no sand in Eve... how would the tape stick to my rifter if there was sand everywhere? i lol'd

Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2010.04.14 09:12:00 - [71] Edited by: Wacktopia on 14/04/2010 09:13:12 Originally by: Cipher Jones NPC corps are not broken. Yes they are. They turn the game into a 'space game with a chat window' and discourage the player base from really engaging in what CCP want the game to be (according to all of their marketing). Originally by: Cipher Jones Hisec is not broken. No but it could be made a lot better. One of the ways in which it could be improved would be to limit anything but basic access to the planetary features to only players in player-run corps. This would allow for Hi-sec planetary interaction to be territorial rather than just another risk-less, mindless ISK source. Originally by: Cipher Jones Level 4 missions are not broken. The only part that was broken was the loot tables, which have allegedly been fixed in the upcoming patch. Yes they are. Level 4 missions are boring as hell and have virtually no risk to them. I run L4's for ISK and you know what I do? I warp in, I agro the room, I launch my drones and then I go and make some food or read a book. When I come back I collect the goodies and head home 30 mil richer. Granted, there needs to be a mechanic to allow for small corps or solo players to make is in the game but L4's are just so mindless. Originally by: Cipher Jones Sandbox means open ended as close to free will as you can get. Yes. So having mechanics that limit free will is the opposite of the 'sandbox' you so loathe and hate. So, a player in an NPC corp is 'free' to steal from other players or insult them but the other players are not 'free' to rage war upon that player? Edit: 'there' fail. The shame.
Learol	Posted - 2010.04.14 14:04:00 - [72] The only way to balance removing non-consensual pvp from highsec space would be with a severe highec nerf, and IÆm pretty sure very few of the highsec corps (however grief stricken) would agree to that, although I probably would myself.
Hecatonis	Posted - 2010.04.14 15:27:00 - [73] Originally by: Learol The only way to balance removing non-consensual pvp from highsec space would be with a severe highec nerf, and IÆm pretty sure very few of the highsec corps (however grief stricken) would agree to that, although I probably would myself. no one is saying that, the entire point of this thread is about how people use the phrase "its a sandbox" incorrectly.
Shogun Jack's	Posted - 2010.04.14 16:49:00 - [74] Wouw, my first time i go look at this forums. I think i am better not Seems that people just forget enjoying the game as it is At least thats the reason i play it, and enjoying it!! [even a pve player] /emote go sit behind the wall again
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.14 16:59:00 - [75] Originally by: Learol The only way to balance removing non-consensual pvp from highsec space would be with a severe highec nerf, and I’m pretty sure very few of the highsec corps (however grief stricken) would agree to that, although I probably would myself. I don't want to remove non consensual PvP from the game whatsoever. I want people to quit crying "sandbox" when they attempt non consensual PvP and do not succeed to get their kill. Like when someone actually has the brains to run evasion modules instead of damage. I had non consensual PvP twice this week so far, won one and lost one. Its fun **. However I dont cry "sandbox" when I lose. I STFU and buy a new ship. It's part of the sandbox when someone "jumps" me and I take them out, its part of the sandbox when I get AFK ganked because I thought nobody would bother to scan down a cruiser while I fiddled with real life for a minute. Quote: Yes they are. They turn the game into a 'space game with a chat window' and discourage the player base from really engaging in what CCP want the game to be (according to all of their marketing). CCP says they need adjusted slightly, fine, adjust them. You dont adjust something thats broken, you fix it. Quote: Yes they are. Level 4 missions are boring as hell and have virtually no risk to them. I run L4's for ISK and you know what I do? I warp in, I agro the room, I launch my drones and then I go and make some food or read a book. When I come back I collect the goodies and head home 30 mil richer. Granted, there needs to be a mechanic to allow for small corps or solo players to make is in the game but L4's are just so mindless. It takes a hell of an investment in time and plenty of risk in getting to level 4 missions. By the time you get to the point where you can aggro the whole room and win eve online in 30 minutes you have invested months of gametime and hundreds of millions if not billions of isk. The risk to reward ratio is fine. Again, CCP said the loot tables were the IMBA in level 4's, and again I trust CCP over you. No offense. Quote:** Yes. So having mechanics that limit free will is the opposite of the 'sandbox' you so loathe and hate. So, a player in an NPC corp is 'free' to steal from other players or insult them but the other players are not 'free' to rage war upon that player? You are an arrogant ass to assume I hate the sandbox concept. CCP has stated that salvage does not belong to you ingame. You are absolutely free to wage war on anyone at anytime in eve. You seem upset that you cannot declare war on individual people, however. As I stated in the NPC corp thread, I wish they would let you (declare war on an NPC corp to get at a single person). It would be fun to see your entire corporation instapwned by the powerful NPC corps that have been around for hundreds of years and have fleets of battleships and untold riches. If you want the sandbox to be truly open ended this is what would happen. This is clearly a signature.
Jeneroux Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.14 17:09:00 - [76] Could be litter box.. why care what is called? I play how I choose.. no justification required for anyone.. is my money.
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.04.14 23:36:00 - [77] Originally by: Cipher Jones It takes a hell of an investment in time and plenty of risk in getting to level 4 missions. By the time you get to the point where you can aggro the whole room and win eve online in 30 minutes you have invested months of gametime and hundreds of millions if not billions of isk. The risk to reward ratio is fine. Again, CCP said the loot tables were the IMBA in level 4's, and again I trust CCP over you. No offense. Are you being sarcastic or do you really believe it is actually hard, challenging, risky, and/or one hell of an investment to run lvl 4s? "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Doomed Predator GK inc. Panda Team	Posted - 2010.04.15 00:51:00 - [78] Originally by: Cipher Jones It takes a hell of an investment in time and plenty of risk in getting to level 4 missions. By the time you get to the point where you can aggro the whole room and win eve online in 30 minutes you have invested months of gametime and hundreds of millions if not billions of isk. The risk to reward ratio is fine. Again, CCP said the loot tables were the IMBA in level 4's, and again I trust CCP over you. No offense. Bolded the funny bit. If you actually believe that instead of trying to troll more I fell bad for you. There is no need to aggro the whole room and you don't win EVE by doing that and surviving. You seem to throw the word sandbox around a whole lot. What you don't get that people always want better tools in the sandbox to do their thing and special rules just for them. So of course you'll see insane whines like how horribly wrong suicide ganking and how people should be forced to low sec/0.0 . The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again
Cambarus The Compass Reloaded	Posted - 2010.04.15 01:11:00 - [79] Originally by: Cipher Jones I don't want to remove non consensual PvP from the game whatsoever. I want people to quit crying "sandbox" when they attempt non consensual PvP and do not succeed to get their kill. Like when someone actually has the brains to run evasion modules instead of damage. I had non consensual PvP twice this week so far, won one and lost one. Its fun **. However I dont cry "sandbox" when I lose. I STFU and buy a new ship. It's part of the sandbox when someone "jumps" me and I take them out, its part of the sandbox when I get AFK ganked because I thought nobody would bother to scan down a cruiser while I fiddled with real life for a minute. The reason people are using the sandbox argument with regards to forced pvp, especially with regards to wardecs, is that despite them being easy to avoid (both with ingame and metagame methods) but we still have this unneeded mechanic that makes people completely immune to wardecs. That's not skill, that's not cunning, it's just pushing the invulnerability button (and given that it's not possible under reasonable circumstances to suicide someone on your own in the same shipclass, it kind of drives the point home that suicide ganking is not a reasonable way to get kills, because you can't deny the power of a mechanic that makes you invulnerable to anyone not in a fleet of at least 3-4 people per person they want dead, or in a ship that costs 50X as much) The problem isn't one of attempting non-consensual pvp, but rather one of not being able to. Originally by:** Cipher Jones CCP says they need adjusted slightly, fine, adjust them. You dont adjust something thats broken, you fix it. CCP have also said that the way NPC corps are being used is not the way they intended them to be used. Something not working the way it should = something that is broken and needs fixing. Originally by: Cipher Jones It takes a hell of an investment in time and plenty of risk in getting to level 4 missions. By the time you get to the point where you can aggro the whole room and win eve online in 30 minutes you have invested months of gametime and hundreds of millions if not billions of isk. The risk to reward ratio is fine. Again, CCP said the loot tables were the IMBA in level 4's, and again I trust CCP over you. No offense. This is such a terrible argument and there are so many people who've already lolled at it I almost feel bad countering it... It takes a month, and about 100mil, to get a character from having nothing to being able to solo lvl 4s. I know this because I have ran a total of 4 dominix alts over the years, and even with minimal support skills they can get through any lvl 4 mission. Granted, this is with previous knowledge of the game, (not going to mention the isk involved because I had about 70mil to my name a month after starting) Also, if you trust CCP, then you must also trust that NPC corps are broken, because CCP have explicitly said that they're meant to be just temporary corps used until you can find a player run corp... Originally by: Cipher Jones As I stated in the NPC corp thread, I wish they would let you (declare war on an NPC corp to get at a single person). It would be fun to see your entire corporation instapwned by the powerful NPC corps that have been around for hundreds of years and have fleets of battleships and untold riches. If you want the sandbox to be truly open ended this is what would happen. Why would NPCs be involved in this? And even if they were, we stomp empire NPCs every time we run faction-oriented missions, why would they suddenly develop the ability to instagibb an entire corp?
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.15 01:41:00 - [80] Quote: This is such a terrible argument and there are so many people who've already lolled at it I almost feel bad countering it... It takes a month, and about 100mil, to get a character from having nothing to being able to solo lvl 4s. You equate being able to solo level 4's to making 30 mil ISK an hour, so obviously theres no talking to you. Youre not even a little bit serious. You know everything about eve and I'm a troll. I'm emo ragequitting my own thread now because its america and I can. To all the people who silently lol'd me behind my back, I'm suing you. /wrists This is clearly a signature.

Cambarus The Compass Reloaded	Posted - 2010.04.15 02:10:00 - [81] Edited by: Cambarus on 15/04/2010 02:11:01 Originally by: Cipher Jones Quote: This is such a terrible argument and there are so many people who've already lolled at it I almost feel bad countering it... It takes a month, and about 100mil, to get a character from having nothing to being able to solo lvl 4s. You equate being able to solo level 4's to making 30 mil ISK an hour, so obviously theres no talking to you. Youre not even a little bit serious. You know everything about eve and I'm a troll. I'm emo ragequitting my own thread now because its america and I can. To all the people who silently lol'd me behind my back, I'm suing you. /wrists Originally by: Cipher Jones It takes a hell of an investment in time and plenty of risk in getting to level 4 missions. By the time you get to the point where you can aggro the whole room and win eve online in 30 minutes you have invested months of gametime and hundreds of millions if not billions of isk. The risk to reward ratio is fine. Bolded and underlined the important bits. Yes it takes a lot of isk and SP to be able to clear a mission in 30 minutes but it's still the same set of missions you've been running since 2 months in with 5mil SP. Also, given that the original context of the argument had to do moreso with grinding the standings than the actual missions themselves (unless you're referring to the actual risk involved in running a lvl 4 mission, which is just slightly above zero) the issue of how quickly you run lvl 4s is irrelevant, because you're running lvl 50 instances at lvl 100, obviously you're going to do them better and faster than a lvl 50...


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