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HACs are underpowered

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Terianna Eri Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.04.20 07:19:00 - [31] Originally by: Reldor Silverheart anyway, some hac's are fine some could use some small help, but the top ones i'd say right now comes in this order. Vagabond - Selfaxplanatory Ishtar - Quite selfexplanatory aswell Deimos - Good dps bonuses, offers a good tank and a MWD bonus, all in all a very good HAC. Really? The Deimos? Top tier? You sure you didn't just make a pretty bad typo of "Zealot" ? ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Average Jack	Posted - 2010.04.20 08:18:00 - [32] Originally by: Reldor Silverheart Deimos - Good dps bonuses, offers a good tank and a MWD bonus, all in all a very good HAC. Sorry but LOL @Deimos. Imo it's the worst HAC out there - too slow to keep range, only deals decent DPS with blasters (and then keeping range will be an even bigger issue), MWD bonus is not worth anything (because you'll either snipe in which case it's irrelevant or you'll have your MWD turned off in close range and die without ever hitting a thing). Compared to a Zealot the Deimos is just rubbish imo. I also find the other two HACs you mentioned pretty bad - after the speed nerf Vaga is a slow tackler with bad locktime and sub-par HAC DPS. Not exactly great. And the Ishtar.. well, I haven't flown one of those since the speed nerf either (except for PVE).
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.04.20 08:22:00 - [33] I would like to argue that the warp scrambler + BC vs. HAC is a tad too powerful... Want to test a supercap on Sisi but don't have one? look here
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.04.20 09:09:00 - [34] Originally by: Sokratesz I would like to argue that the warp scrambler + BC vs. HAC is a tad too powerful... But BCs are like slow immobile bricks and stuff, I read it in ships and modules. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.04.20 09:23:00 - [35] i belive that HACs if they need anything is a little more HP, a HAC is more mobile but at close range in a ifght getting to use that range to escape is tough as you run out of hp too fast. the problem is that the faster shield basied hacs with scim support is extremly good as it is, so its hard to ballence a hac without a scim against one with. The close range HACs, diemost, sac, ishtar, muninn too to some degree, could use some EHP love to justify their cost over similar fit BCs.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.04.20 11:25:00 - [36] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Sokratesz I would like to argue that the warp scrambler + BC vs. HAC is a tad too powerful... But BCs are like slow immobile bricks and stuff, I read it in ships and modules. It's on the internet, it must be true! Vote Sokratesz!
Calydonian Boar	Posted - 2010.04.20 11:26:00 - [37] Originally by: evil0 The "HAC", better known as "Holy Armed Cow" is probably the most unbalanced ship in the entire game. All HACs are generally underpowered for several reasons. a. HACs are outperformed by BCs whivh cost LESS THAN THEY DO! b. HACs are waaaaayyyy too expensive to be of value. c. They lack the DPS to take on other HACs with a guaranteed win. a. HACs are far more agile/fast and that's what you pay for when buying one. Eventhough they are T2 ships, they are still cruiser class and a BC to outperforming a cruiser shouldn't be surprising. b. They have special characteristics which T1 cruisers/BCs don't have, therefore it's normal for them to cost more. (high base resists, agility, speed, almost same dps for several hacs, sniping) c. You basically want a 'I win ship' here apparently, which would raise the 'nerf dramiel' extravaganza again. If both ship types are same, why would one of them have a 'guaranteed win' ??? Basically like most of the T2 ships, hacs are special purpose ships. You can't snipe with ferox or moa from 200km, for that you need eagle. And similar things go on for other hacs as well.
The Tzar T-Wrecks	Posted - 2010.04.20 11:49:00 - [38] HAC's are awesome, what are you talking about? My beam zealot is probably the longest lasting ship I've ever had and more to the point I haven't wasted insurance money on it. Not only that it can shoot to 120km, apply over 400dps and lock as fast as an interceptor (not all at the same time but very quick in-flight conversion) Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels.StevieSG
Psiri	Posted - 2010.04.20 13:49:00 - [39] Some HACs are great, like the Vagabond, Zealot and Ishtar. To be honest though, I've seen very few people that manage to turn a profit PvPing with them. The few that I've seen have either been extremely cautious (IMO to the point that they're losing out on alot of fun) or crazy good and it's usually not the later. HACs should be expensive though, it's their only real balancing factor. I'm all for making PvP less costly (or more profitable, rather) but HACs do not need a boost in any shape or form aside from maybe the less appealing ones like the Deimos and such.
VanNostrum	Posted - 2010.04.20 14:02:00 - [40] I'm scared to take out my vaga since there are so many cynabals around it's ridiculous. Face it, ever since the pirate cruisers came out HACs have become less than mediocre. Want cheaper? Buy BC Want better? Buy pirate ship

fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2010.04.20 14:53:00 - [41] Originally by: VanNostrum I'm scared to take out my vaga since there are so many cynabals around it's ridiculous. Face it, ever since the pirate cruisers came out HACs have become less than mediocre. Want cheaper? Buy BC Want better? Buy pirate ship Not to mention that some pirate ships cost the same as HACs, while outperforming them.
Suitonia Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.20 15:06:00 - [42] The HACs that offer something that the battlecruiser counterparts can't do, are the good ones. ~~Top Tier HACs~~ Vagabond - Twice as fast as a Hurricane, great ship for solo roaming and gangs because of its unique point, it's speed, while contributing decent dps, it can take on a large portfolio of ships, and disengage from most of the ones it can't. Muninn - It can hit to 100km with artillery, has tracking bonus and optimal bonus over the Hurricane, and also has a mobility advantage. Great in LR HAC gangs. Zealot - Similar to Muninn, hits ranges that the harbinger cannot due to optimal bonus, and is significantly faster and more agile. Great in LR HAC gangs, also works quite well in small roaming gangs. ~~Mid Tier HACs~~ Ishtar - It can field 5 heavys and has a drone bay on par with focused drone battleships. Not quite there as a top tier ship in PvP, but it at least has an unique selling point, and is actually pretty good with sentry drones. It is kind of obsolete compared to the Vagabond for solo/small gang, and obsolete compared to the Zealot/Muninn for LR hac gangs. Cerberus - It shoots twice as far as the Drake, unfortunately it's quite slow and difficult to fit. The extra range over the other LR HACs is kind of gimped by the fact that turrets are preferable to missiles (about 10 seconds for a HML to hit from LR hac range) for the instant damage. If you can't fly a Zealot or Muninn it's a good choice to bring however. (Tengu and Rook are pretty much better choices if your engaging closer than sniper HAC range. Eagle - It has sniper BS range, unfortunately its also very slow, and has terrible powergrid. It also does less dps at LR HAC range than the Zealot, Muninn and Cerberus. It's still a reasonably good anti-support ship I suppose, it just sucks compared to the zealot/muninn. ~~Bottom Tier HACs~~ Deimos - Probably the worst HAC in the game, it's a Brutix, that goes 600m/s faster, oh and it can shoot about 4-5km further too (in falloff). Which isn't even close to making it a good HAC considering the Zealot is faster than it. It is incredibly vulnerable having to engage in scram range, where it will get owned by a solo Dramiel, or any Battlecruiser, and the Vagabond can engage and win against a larger profile of ships. If you want a solo HAC train Minmatar cruiser 5 instead. Sacrilege - Some people may disagree with me listing it as bad as the Deimos, well, sorry but it is. It may be unique in that its an armor tanked missile spewer, but it simply doesn't do anything that a Drake can do. Again, the Vagabond can engage, and win against more ships than it can, and has more escape options available to it. The DPS is actually quite awful on it unless you sacrifice tank for BCUs. I'd rather fly a Tier 2 Battlecruiser or a Vagabond than this is every situation I can think of. TL;DR want a good solo HAC? pick the Vagabond. Want a good LR HAC? pick a Zealot or Muninn. The rest are mediocre. ---
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.04.20 15:17:00 - [43] Edited by: Gypsio III on 20/04/2010 15:17:42 100 km Eagle - more DPS than a Muninn, and 2.5 times the tracking. Muninn has much more alpha, speed and scan res ofc.
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.04.20 15:38:00 - [44] I would correct all of the fail in this thread, but I am quite honestly pleased with how tactically clueless most people are.
Kendon Riddick	Posted - 2010.04.20 15:46:00 - [45] Originally by: Space Pinata I would correct all of the fail in this thread, but I am quite honestly pleased with how tactically clueless most people are. sweet post, keep em coming, so direct and to the piont and well worded. oh snap i just did the same thing waka waka
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.04.20 16:33:00 - [46] Originally by: Space Pinata I would correct all of the fail in this thread, but I am quite honestly pleased with how tactically clueless most people are. look at me ma I can act superior on the internets lol Vote Sokratesz!
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.04.20 16:46:00 - [47] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Space Pinata I would correct all of the fail in this thread, but I am quite honestly pleased with how tactically clueless most people are. look at me ma I can act superior on the internets lol I too fly my HAC's into scramble range of larger ships.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.04.20 17:13:00 - [48] Originally by: Space Pinata Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Space Pinata I would correct all of the fail in this thread, but I am quite honestly pleased with how tactically clueless most people are. look at me ma I can act superior on the internets lol I too fly my HAC's into scramble range of larger ships. Because there wasn't a thing called 90% 10km webs before and nano ships NEVAR died to them? get off your high pony Vote Sokratesz!
Beltantis Torrence Groovy Guns	Posted - 2010.04.20 17:15:00 - [49] Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 20/04/2010 15:17:42 100 km Eagle - more DPS than a Muninn, and 2.5 times the tracking. Muninn has much more alpha, speed and scan res ofc. QFT. The benefit of the eagle is you can either tank it and use spike with bad DPS @ 100km or use faction ammo for great tracking and decent DPS @ 100km or hit out to 220+km on a paper thin poor tracking setup. IE, there's 3 decent sniping fits for it which makes it a versatile sniper ship.
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2010.04.20 17:36:00 - [50] Edited by: fuxinos on 20/04/2010 17:35:56 Originally by: Suitonia The HACs that offer something that the battlecruiser counterparts can't do, are the good ones. ~~Top Tier HACs~~ Vagabond - Twice as fast as a Hurricane, great ship for solo roaming and gangs because of its unique point, it's speed, while contributing decent dps, it can take on a large portfolio of ships, and disengage from most of the ones it can't. Muninn - It can hit to 100km with artillery, has tracking bonus and optimal bonus over the Hurricane, and also has a mobility advantage. Great in LR HAC gangs. Zealot - Similar to Muninn, hits ranges that the harbinger cannot due to optimal bonus, and is significantly faster and more agile. Great in LR HAC gangs, also works quite well in small roaming gangs. ~~Mid Tier HACs~~ Ishtar - It can field 5 heavys and has a drone bay on par with focused drone battleships. Not quite there as a top tier ship in PvP, but it at least has an unique selling point, and is actually pretty good with sentry drones. It is kind of obsolete compared to the Vagabond for solo/small gang, and obsolete compared to the Zealot/Muninn for LR hac gangs. Cerberus - It shoots twice as far as the Drake, unfortunately it's quite slow and difficult to fit. The extra range over the other LR HACs is kind of gimped by the fact that turrets are preferable to missiles (about 10 seconds for a HML to hit from LR hac range) for the instant damage. If you can't fly a Zealot or Muninn it's a good choice to bring however. (Tengu and Rook are pretty much better choices if your engaging closer than sniper HAC range. Eagle - It has sniper BS range, unfortunately its also very slow, and has terrible powergrid. It also does less dps at LR HAC range than the Zealot, Muninn and Cerberus. It's still a reasonably good anti-support ship I suppose, it just sucks compared to the zealot/muninn. ~~Bottom Tier HACs~~ Deimos - Probably the worst HAC in the game, it's a Brutix, that goes 600m/s faster, oh and it can shoot about 4-5km further too (in falloff). Which isn't even close to making it a good HAC considering the Zealot is faster than it. It is incredibly vulnerable having to engage in scram range, where it will get owned by a solo Dramiel, or any Battlecruiser, and the Vagabond can engage and win against a larger profile of ships. If you want a solo HAC train Minmatar cruiser 5 instead. Sacrilege - Some people may disagree with me listing it as bad as the Deimos, well, sorry but it is. It may be unique in that its an armor tanked missile spewer, but it simply doesn't do anything that a Drake can do. Again, the Vagabond can engage, and win against more ships than it can, and has more escape options available to it. The DPS is actually quite awful on it unless you sacrifice tank for BCUs. I'd rather fly a Tier 2 Battlecruiser or a Vagabond than this is every situation I can think of. TL;DR want a good solo HAC? pick the Vagabond. Want a good LR HAC? pick a Zealot or Muninn. The rest are mediocre. I would still put the Cerberus into the low tier segment. Sure, it can shoot further then a Drake, but all its disadvantages are so enourms, that you pretty much better of in another ship. A Rook is simply better in almost all cases for example.

Joe Censored Unknown-Entity Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.20 17:47:00 - [51] Wow, that's why I never see people flying HACs
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.04.20 17:55:00 - [52] the amount of facepalm-inducing statements in this thread is quite honestly, over 9000. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.04.20 18:41:00 - [53] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/04/2010 18:41:39 Originally by: Sokratesz nano ships NEVAR died to them? They said so on the internets. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.04.20 19:31:00 - [54] Originally by: fuxinos I would still put the Cerberus into the low tier segment. Sure, it can shoot further then a Drake, but all its disadvantages are so enourms, that you pretty much better of in another ship. A Rook is simply better in almost all cases for example. A Rook may well be generally better, but I feel that's more because the Rook is just so good. I don't think the Cerberus deserves to be ranked alongside the Sacrilege and Deimos, put it that way.
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.04.21 01:45:00 - [55] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Space Pinata Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Space Pinata I would correct all of the fail in this thread, but I am quite honestly pleased with how tactically clueless most people are. look at me ma I can act superior on the internets lol I too fly my HAC's into scramble range of larger ships. Because there wasn't a thing called 90% 10km webs before and nano ships NEVAR died to them? get off your high pony I too flew my nanoships into the web range of larger ships, because I do not understand what a safe range is.
VanNostrum	Posted - 2010.04.21 09:45:00 - [56] Originally by: Suitonia The HACs that offer something that the battlecruiser counterparts can't do, are the good ones. ~~Top Tier HACs~~ yada yada yada yada Well, hello where are the pirate cruisers in this equation!? OFC there are things HACs can do but BCs can't, but pirate ships can do those better!
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.04.21 09:56:00 - [57] Originally by: VanNostrum Well, hello where are the pirate cruisers in this equation!? OFC there are things HACs can do but BCs can't, but pirate ships can do those better! CCP designed the lineup to be: T1<navy faction<T2<pirate faction. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
VanNostrum	Posted - 2010.04.21 10:08:00 - [58] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: VanNostrum Well, hello where are the pirate cruisers in this equation!? OFC there are things HACs can do but BCs can't, but pirate ships can do those better! CCP designed the lineup to be: T1<navy faction<T2<pirate faction. and where does that leave HACs?
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.04.21 10:09:00 - [59] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/04/2010 10:09:42 Originally by: VanNostrum Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: VanNostrum Well, hello where are the pirate cruisers in this equation!? OFC there are things HACs can do but BCs can't, but pirate ships can do those better! CCP designed the lineup to be: T1<navy faction<T2<pirate faction. and where does that leave HACs? Inferior to pirate faction cruisers by design? Much like HACs obsolete navy cruisers. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Kendon Riddick	Posted - 2010.04.21 10:25:00 - [60] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/04/2010 10:09:42 Originally by: VanNostrum Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: VanNostrum Well, hello where are the pirate cruisers in this equation!? OFC there are things HACs can do but BCs can't, but pirate ships can do those better! CCP designed the lineup to be: T1<navy faction<T2<pirate faction. and where does that leave HACs? Inferior to pirate faction cruisers by design? Much like HACs obsolete navy cruisers. tbh i think having navy and pirate module stas identical is a waste, boost all pirate faction modules to bring then in line and therefore more uber like ships!11oneone



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