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stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.04.23 18:11:00 - [1] Edited by: stoicfaux on 23/04/2010 18:21:13 I proposed the following idea in a learning skills thread and it was seconded by several people so I am posting it here. This is the original thread. Problem a) Eve is a pew-pew internet spaceship sandbox game. b) The Learning skills are boring. c) Boring makes for a bad Newbie First Experience. d) Unfortunately, learning skills have such a large impact on skill training time that it is "stupid" not to learn them first. As pointed out by Ravenal in this post, implants and learning skills can allow you train at 4x (!!!) the base rate, a boost that is too hard to ignore. Proposal Allow new characters to start with the basic learning skills at level 4 and the advanced learning skills at level 3. This would remove the "need" for newbies to spend their few moments of Eve on training learning skills. It would still allow players the option to invest in the time to further improve their training skills to 5/5. This should be easy and quick to implement since it uses existing mechanics and is "just" a database update. Issues Not fair to anyone who already trained learning skills There are a couple of possibilities: a) Tough! "Your online experience may change." Older players will have to suck it up. b) Skill Credit. Credit older players the skill points. This could be done via accelerated skill training such as how new characters get a training boost. c) TBD. The 4/3 learning skills could be implemented now and a skill credit solution can be determined later since the information is in the database. But... Patience and Disciplines are Virtues - Why are we dumbing down, WoW-ifying, pandering to instant gratification crowd, etc.? For the simple reason that learning skills are boring and the boost they provide is too large to ignore. For the simple reason that people are more willing to pay $$ to mine, build, and/or shoot than they are to sit on their thumbs waiting for learning skills to finish. For the simple reason that "mandatory" learning skills annoys those who are Alt-aholics. Your alt winds up spending a lot of the 1.6 million accelerated training boost on learning skills than on your industry or faction warfare skills. Why not just give everyone Frigates V while we're at it? Each level of the frigates skill provides access to new ships and abilities. This is exciting, especially since it opens up new weapons and fittings to train for. Each level of a training skills allows you to train the next level of training skill that much faster. Zzzzzzzzz... ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Valentina Valentia Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.04.23 18:41:00 - [2] The solution would have been to do this (though it's far, far to late to do it now...) Skills are fine, Levels are fine, Implants, etc... all fine. Pre-reqs: L1 - basic access to T1, but no bonuses - RL version - trained but no experience L2 - basic access to T2, basic bonus on skill and item - RL trained and with advanced training, but limited or no experience L3 - competent at this skill and use - akin to 1-2 years of real world expience doing something highly trained, you know what to do, your not an expert... L4 - as above but now you can perhaps tell someone how things are done and train another person to the L1 level in theory with this level of expertise and knowledge... and people might ask you for input. L5 - You finally know your ass from a hole in the ground, you aren't Scotty, but you could keep up. The first two give no bonuses, 3-5 would give progressive - so that would have to be reworked... but that might be a solution. Or we could just play the game as is and say, what is done is done, it's not going to change now... nice thought though.
Vespoi Filar	Posted - 2010.04.23 18:41:00 - [3] +1 I absolutely endorse this idea and I don't care if I don't get a boost or credit because I already did train the skills. On release day if a characters Learning skills are less than 4/3 make them 4/3. Elegant, simple, painless. Removing one of the most massively evil parts of this game.
Aqriue	Posted - 2010.04.23 18:54:00 - [4] One million Six hundred thousand (1,600,000) points of fast learning towards anything. Its best used to get those learning skills to 4/3 or 4/4 unless your looking to make a specialized cyno alt or small trader character. Its like one week of invested time at double speed if you concentrate on it, which can shave days off any short term plan. It already exists what your asking for.
Taxesarebad	Posted - 2010.04.23 19:03:00 - [5] would be better to give everyone 5/5 then give another 100% for the ammount of sp that character has already trained. i think even CCP said learning skills were a bad idea, so remove them have all characters start with them maxed, then give older players who have trained them a 100-200% bonus time equivelent to the sp they have trained in learning =\
Vespoi Filar	Posted - 2010.04.23 19:56:00 - [6] Originally by: Aqriue One million Six hundred thousand (1,600,000) points of fast learning towards anything. Its best used to get those learning skills to 4/3 or 4/4 unless your looking to make a specialized cyno alt or small trader character. Its like one week of invested time at double speed if you concentrate on it, which can shave days off any short term plan. It already exists what your asking for. But doesn't change the fact that a new player has to invest all that frickin time training the HORRIFIC learning skills. Lets just kill em. Start at 4/3 4/2 4/1 4 who cares. At the very least it ameliorates one of the biggest dumb ideas implemented at the dawn of time.
el Sabor	Posted - 2010.04.23 20:03:00 - [7] I agree... I've been playing a while and frankly don't give a crap if I lose out having wasted a week or two training them. Get rid of 'em. It definitely puts newer players off.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.04.23 20:22:00 - [8] How do you compensate for the fact that newcomers get an increased learning rate? --
AterraX Caldari	Posted - 2010.04.24 11:12:00 - [9] Edited by: AterraX on 24/04/2010 11:12:51 Edited by: AterraX on 24/04/2010 11:12:34 This post said it best: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1290489&page=2#44 Originally by: Charles Park Hey I think Engineering and Electronics are stupid skills. Why should noobs have to spend time training those skills to 5 to be able to fit their ships properly. Its ridiculous! I say remove Engineering and Electronics and increase the powergrid and cpu of all ships to make them easier to fit. Who cares about n00bs? If they can't figured out a balanced traning plan, they can go play WoW ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character...
1600 RT	Posted - 2010.04.24 11:21:00 - [10] give the option to remove the 100% training bonus and give new player all the learning skills to lv 4.

DangerosoDavo Gallente Stella Contego Security Stella Stargate Security	Posted - 2010.04.24 11:26:00 - [11] Why? that would make spending the 25M on learning skillss at the start poinltess, it took me along time to be able to afford those advanced learnings ksills when i was starting out, 100% modifier on training is good enough maybe started them out @ lvl 3 on basics but not advanced. i remember starting with 'some' learning skills when i first made my account so i think 'some' learning skills should be given just not many. and no advanced at all. _______________________________________________ Regards Davo
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.04.24 14:08:00 - [12] Better yet, remove them altogether. They are a total waste of time and database space and CCP themselves have admitted that it was a mistake to introduce them in the first place. Like to blow stuff up? Vote Sokratesz for a PVP voice!
Party Scout	Posted - 2010.04.24 14:12:00 - [13] Originally by: Whitehound How do you compensate for the fact that newcomers get an increased learning rate? No need to compensate. It will help all of us in the end. I have 5/4 learning, but if they give everyone 5/5 including me, and new characters, fine by me. I agree that learning skills are simple one terrible idea. I like stats, but learning is just a time sink. A time sink to reduce another time sink... Crap, it's just a compounded time sink, and adds very little to the game. Remove please, even if old players do not get something out of it, it still benefits the community after all. Now, if CCP could remove the learning skills, and give those skills points back to the user to drop anywhere they want, then better. That way, there are no wasted skillpoints. Anyway, remove them! learning skills suck balls on all levels.
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.04.24 14:16:00 - [14] Originally by: DangerosoDavo Why? that would make spending the 25M on learning skillss at the start poinltess, it took me along time to be able to afford those advanced learnings ksills when i was starting out, 100% modifier on training is good enough maybe started them out @ lvl 3 on basics but not advanced. i remember starting with 'some' learning skills when i first made my account so i think 'some' learning skills should be given just not many. and no advanced at all. 25M in skill books is also another reason to give new characters the learning skills. 25M for a newb is a lot of money (several decently fitted cruisers.) Originally by: Whitehound How do you compensate for the fact that newcomers get an increased learning rate? 4/3 learning skills is 448,769 skill points according to EveMon. If newbs started with 4/3 learning skills then I would say just knock the boosted training from 1.6 to 1.1 million skill points. ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Party Scout	Posted - 2010.04.24 14:18:00 - [15] Originally by: DangerosoDavo Why? that would make spending the 25M on learning skillss at the start poinltess, it took me along time to be able to afford those advanced learnings ksills when i was starting out, 100% modifier on training is good enough maybe started them out @ lvl 3 on basics but not advanced. i remember starting with 'some' learning skills when i first made my account so i think 'some' learning skills should be given just not many. and no advanced at all. "I suffered so everyone else should suffer too!!!" That's a bad way to look at things. Removing learning skills is a good idea. If CCP can give those skills back to the player to use somewhere else, then better. But not necessary really.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.04.24 14:30:00 - [16] Just on the side, I like(d) training the learning skills. It helped me to make my mind up of how dedicated I am going to play EVE. I do know that dedication is not for everybody. --
Party Scout	Posted - 2010.04.24 14:50:00 - [17] Originally by: Whitehound Just on the side, I like(d) training the learning skills. It helped me to make my mind up of how dedicated I am going to play EVE. I do know that dedication is not for everybody. I trained learning skills to 5/4 because it is required if you want to play EVE for a while. However, I consider all that time to be completely wasted. I do not get a "happy" feeling for all that wasted time, nor does it make me more "dedicated" than the next person. Pointless timesink to reduce more timesinks is completely pointless. Any other skill you train has some actual use in game (allow use of a module, or ship, or increase damage, effectiveness), but not learning skills.
spiked amarr Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.04.25 01:37:00 - [18] +1 If more people to kill come out of This idea then I'm satisfied.
Commander Spectre Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.04.25 03:22:00 - [19] Edited by: Commander Spectre on 25/04/2010 03:26:06
Gray Pawn	Posted - 2010.04.25 05:26:00 - [20] When figuring out what to do with the learning skills, the points of contention seem to arise from the skills being kept as is - simply to raise stats. Those who already have invested 1.6 mil points into learning don't like the idea of losing their training time. Similarly, veteran players probably also dislike the idea of giving newbies an advantage which was not present when they, the veterans, started. Not to mention the fact that skill point reimbursement is a tricky subject... Why not turn the skills into something useful instead? If the skills were still useful, the veterans wouldn't end up with useless skills and CCP wouldn't have to figure out a way to refund skill points. The bonus that new players would get over the old (if the skills were kept as is) would be negated by using this plan: 1. Learning skills would no longer boost stats - learning skills will instead boost skills and allow the use of higher grade implants. 2. For example, an extremely well learned player, i.e. 5/4 in both perc and will, would have an innate grasp on all skills goverened by perc/will. 3. The "innate grasp" would essentially function as automatic skill levels. Continuting the perc/will example, a charcter with 5/4s in both perc and will would behave has if he/she had level 3 in all perc/will governed skills. 4. The exact formula will be as follows: (For calculating innate levels in Gunnery, for example) (Iron Will Levels + Spatial Awareness Levels + Focus Levels + Clarity Levels)/6 = Innate Levels Using the aforementioned formula, players would top out at an innate level of 3 with learning skills at 5/4. 5. Players would still have to formally train through all skill levels in order to get to level 5. The idea being that even with "innate" abilities, people still need to go through formal school to learn the building blocks necessary to achieve even higher levels of expertise. This would also ensure that the veteran players did not waste time training skills from level 1 to 3. 6. Additionally, as was already mentioned in this thread, the learning skills could also be a prerequisite for the use of higher level implants. This will still make the learning skills valuable for the veteran players who already have high levels in most learning skills. 7. The level of implant usable would be equal to the level of advanced skill training. In other words, at level 5 Focus the character would be able to use the +5 perception implant. The idea is that newer characters cannot use implants becaue their brains can't handle them. Only after sufficient training and development can their minds be sufficiently conditioned to accept mental implants. 8. The actual "Learning" skill can continue to function as it does currently. I doubt anyone will complain about the rather small amount of time it takes to get the skill to level 5. Using this system, learning skills would have a role in the EVE universe and not be completely useless. Likewise, there'd be no need to refund skills points to those who have trained the learning skills. New players would train learning skills to gain innate levels (allowing them to jump into the game faster) and use implants. Older players would continue being able to use the highest level implants and also benefit from having most (if not all) skills at innate level 3.

Kanatta Jing	Posted - 2010.04.25 08:15:00 - [21] I support 4/3 for starter characters.
Typhado3 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.25 08:40:00 - [22] 1st: Ravenal has based his calculations of base attribute points being 29 when it's actually 39. He has also stuffed his data by including implants to make the difference between no learning skills and learning skills even bigger. One thing that I must add here. The number of skillpoints added by your suggestion is (including learning at 4): 391,530 45,225 = rank 1 skill at lvl 4 24,000 = rank 3 skill at lvl 3 so around 70k for 1 attribute to basic lvl. also for reference 8,000 = rank 1 skill at lvl 3 You know what I noticed about this number, it's rather small. Honestly I wouldn't care if characters where given this much sp to start with. If people think this is too much of an advantage ccp could fiddle with how long they get the x2 training bonus for to even it out. As someone who trained all skills to 5 and invested in a +5 implant set (that I never seem to get to use ) giving everyone this even with no compensation I would shrug off just a with any other eve loss. I also agree that it might bring more instant fun to the many people as they wouldn't feel they need to train all those learning skills first. HOWEVER I still disagree with this idea. Eve is very much about long term investments, making your own fun as well as there is no best of anything. I believe the learning skills are an important lesson in this area. This may mean noobies spend up to 1/4 of their starting time training learning skills but that's ok imo. If your wondering what the lesson to be learnt from the learning skills is imo there isn't one awnser theirs several: you trained all to 4/3 at start - You have a slight edge but you spent a lot of time waiting. Are you willing to do that for the rest of your eve carear? you trained them only when you needed them - You got to play around a lot more but are a small bit behind the guy who invested his time. Should you try investing more time for a slightly better edge? (eg. traing intercepters to lvl 5) you didn't train any learning skills - You would be able to do more if you'd invested your time wisely. The problem imo is that people say you must do the first way and that people just accept that and far too often don't try and learn anything from this or even think about it. Rather than trying to think over their actions to see if they could have done something differently they come and whine about how annoying it is that they have to do it. ------------------------------ God is an afk cloaker
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.04.25 09:54:00 - [23] Edited by: Whitehound on 25/04/2010 09:56:11 Originally by: Typhado3 .. I also agree that it might bring more instant fun to the many people as they wouldn't feel they need to train all those learning skills first. ... I am going to correct you on this one. The presence or absence of learning skills has no effect on the fun factor of EVE. One can always choose not to train them. The time saved and invested in i.e. gunnery skills will only provide a player with a vanishing small benefit. There will always be other players who dominate by having more skills, especially over the newcomers. Instead, practising patience with the skill training is key to having long lasting fun with EVE. Avoiding the learning skills will teach newcomers this lesson when it is too late and they are starting to abort skill training and switch to another skill and thereby messing it up for themselves. I have seen players, who started with an entirely new char, because they believed their first character was trash and with not having trained the learning skills. Starting a new character is however the biggest waste of time and those who do such a thing because of a false believe are on the edge of being crazy. This thread here only shows that the learning skills are "spot on". Instead, I suggest that we have another set of learning skills on top of the already existing ones. Let us have some more learning tears. --
Takseen	Posted - 2010.04.25 10:28:00 - [24] I'm in favour of this idea for a few reasons. First is it should be very easy for CCP to implement since they don't have to fiddle with tens of thousands of existing characters, they just need to change the settings for what new players start with. Database guy will be pleased. Second is that 4/3 learning is the "no-brainer" option. It takes very little time to learn and provides a massive boost to training speed. Anyone starting their first character would be stupid not to train atleast that far, so why not just take that into account and save them the time. No other skillset that I can think of is pretty much mandatory for all main character roles.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2010.04.25 13:39:00 - [25] No need. The only problem with the learning skills is the ridiculous advice veterans give noobs that they must training learning skills first or they are dumb. That's the best way to train up an alt, not your first and primary character. A first and primary character should explore the game having fun - switching between learning skills and function skills as needed as they figure out what they want to do in the galaxy.
Misanthra	Posted - 2010.04.25 23:17:00 - [26] Not really needed. having rolled a few alts, real easy to get learnings to 4 and very capable frigate pilots under the 1.6 mil sp boosted learn cutoff. Half the noob problems in the game, imo, are people rushing to the big ships. Frigate flying is where you will learn many of the rl skills needed to succeed in this game. If you can't learn to pulse your reps on a lv 1 and mix with speed tank effectively....3 and 4 is going to be very painful. These are rl skills you can learn while grinding out the 4's. Learning is boring...spice it up with some basic support skills, most learn real quick to 3/4. Use evemon/evehq, great tools to plan trains. Very doable to load up a mixed train qeue of learning,weapons, learning,tank,learning,some oher skill and be effective.
Tarik Ordway	Posted - 2010.05.06 02:11:00 - [27] +1 from me. I'm trying to recruit a few friends to play EVE-Online, and they're all creating multiple trial accounts just to do something while they train learning skills. When you only have access to a frigate for around 2 weeks, people get bored, don't activate their accounts, and move on to other MMOs where they can actually do something from the instant they log on. Imagine WoW if you had had to train your weapon skills from 1 to 400 before you could even kill anything to get to level 2. People would quit the game right then and there.
Misanthra	Posted - 2010.05.06 02:53:00 - [28] Originally by: Tarik Ordway +I'm trying to recruit a few friends to play EVE-Online, and they're all creating multiple trial accounts just to do something while they train learning skills. What can't you do on your main week first week of this game. They have made scanning easier (even give a tutorial agent for it now), nerfed requirememens for hacking and archeology. Have half a brain in your head you can grind lv 1's on skill level 3 ship, weapons and tank (and all train in the 1.6 cap in less than 4 days assuming you got money to buy the intro level skills). If you have not taught your friends to kite outside of bot optimals with missiles on a caldari toon or speed tank close to optimals on a gun race, how is that a game mechanism shortcoming? Armor/shield rep pulsing real life skill, have them learn not while "not doing anything". manual flying, rl skill, again something they can learn. So if they go pvp they don't do the pro flying stunts like coming in straight line to tackle.
Tarik Ordway	Posted - 2010.05.06 03:13:00 - [29] Originally by: Misanthra Originally by: Tarik Ordway +I'm trying to recruit a few friends to play EVE-Online, and they're all creating multiple trial accounts just to do something while they train learning skills. What can't you do on your main week first week of this game. They have made scanning easier (even give a tutorial agent for it now), nerfed requirememens for hacking and archeology. Have half a brain in your head you can grind lv 1's on skill level 3 ship, weapons and tank (and all train in the 1.6 cap in less than 4 days assuming you got money to buy the intro level skills). If you have not taught your friends to kite outside of bot optimals with missiles on a caldari toon or speed tank close to optimals on a gun race, how is that a game mechanism shortcoming? Armor/shield rep pulsing real life skill, have them learn not while "not doing anything". manual flying, rl skill, again something they can learn. So if they go pvp they don't do the pro flying stunts like coming in straight line to tackle. Sure they're able to do it. It's what they've been doing on the trial accounts so far. But this is a game, not real life. That's a common misconception a lot of people make. A game is built with the sole purpose to entertain people. It's not entertaining to waste your time, even if you benefit in the long run. Take my friends for example. They'd really like to get a cruiser. If they bite the bullet and do all their learning skills from the beginning, they'll benefit from it in the long run, but they'll suffer from combat and be limited to running level 1 skills for at least two weeks. Sure it's doable, but you have to consider it's a game above all else.
Diabolyc Amarr Bunny Mafia	Posted - 2010.05.06 03:56:00 - [30] from other topic: Originally by: Diabolyc frankly it takes only 16 days w/o implants to finish all learning skills on 4. then if someone have a friend/corp mate/anyone so he can help him with +3 implants and for that you only need cyber on 1 (takes 30 min)... even faster then 16 days. the only problem what i can see here is the price of adv learning skills not the time what you need to finish them. and just to add something - with all on 4 you will be at 1.2-1.3 mil SP so you have room to train something else with 100% speed bonus. just no.



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