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stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.04.23 18:11:00 - [1] Edited by: stoicfaux on 23/04/2010 18:21:13 I proposed the following idea in a learning skills thread and it was seconded by several people so I am posting it here. This is the original thread. Problem a) Eve is a pew-pew internet spaceship sandbox game. b) The Learning skills are boring. c) Boring makes for a bad Newbie First Experience. d) Unfortunately, learning skills have such a large impact on skill training time that it is "stupid" not to learn them first. As pointed out by Ravenal in this post, implants and learning skills can allow you train at 4x (!!!) the base rate, a boost that is too hard to ignore. Proposal Allow new characters to start with the basic learning skills at level 4 and the advanced learning skills at level 3. This would remove the "need" for newbies to spend their few moments of Eve on training learning skills. It would still allow players the option to invest in the time to further improve their training skills to 5/5. This should be easy and quick to implement since it uses existing mechanics and is "just" a database update. Issues Not fair to anyone who already trained learning skills There are a couple of possibilities: a) Tough! "Your online experience may change." Older players will have to suck it up. b) Skill Credit. Credit older players the skill points. This could be done via accelerated skill training such as how new characters get a training boost. c) TBD. The 4/3 learning skills could be implemented now and a skill credit solution can be determined later since the information is in the database. But... Patience and Disciplines are Virtues - Why are we dumbing down, WoW-ifying, pandering to instant gratification crowd, etc.? For the simple reason that learning skills are boring and the boost they provide is too large to ignore. For the simple reason that people are more willing to pay $$ to mine, build, and/or shoot than they are to sit on their thumbs waiting for learning skills to finish. For the simple reason that "mandatory" learning skills annoys those who are Alt-aholics. Your alt winds up spending a lot of the 1.6 million accelerated training boost on learning skills than on your industry or faction warfare skills. Why not just give everyone Frigates V while we're at it? Each level of the frigates skill provides access to new ships and abilities. This is exciting, especially since it opens up new weapons and fittings to train for. Each level of a training skills allows you to train the next level of training skill that much faster. Zzzzzzzzz... ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Valentina Valentia Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.04.23 18:41:00 - [2] The solution would have been to do this (though it's far, far to late to do it now...) Skills are fine, Levels are fine, Implants, etc... all fine. Pre-reqs: L1 - basic access to T1, but no bonuses - RL version - trained but no experience L2 - basic access to T2, basic bonus on skill and item - RL trained and with advanced training, but limited or no experience L3 - competent at this skill and use - akin to 1-2 years of real world expience doing something highly trained, you know what to do, your not an expert... L4 - as above but now you can perhaps tell someone how things are done and train another person to the L1 level in theory with this level of expertise and knowledge... and people might ask you for input. L5 - You finally know your ass from a hole in the ground, you aren't Scotty, but you could keep up. The first two give no bonuses, 3-5 would give progressive - so that would have to be reworked... but that might be a solution. Or we could just play the game as is and say, what is done is done, it's not going to change now... nice thought though.
Vespoi Filar	Posted - 2010.04.23 18:41:00 - [3] +1 I absolutely endorse this idea and I don't care if I don't get a boost or credit because I already did train the skills. On release day if a characters Learning skills are less than 4/3 make them 4/3. Elegant, simple, painless. Removing one of the most massively evil parts of this game.
Aqriue	Posted - 2010.04.23 18:54:00 - [4] One million Six hundred thousand (1,600,000) points of fast learning towards anything. Its best used to get those learning skills to 4/3 or 4/4 unless your looking to make a specialized cyno alt or small trader character. Its like one week of invested time at double speed if you concentrate on it, which can shave days off any short term plan. It already exists what your asking for.
Taxesarebad	Posted - 2010.04.23 19:03:00 - [5] would be better to give everyone 5/5 then give another 100% for the ammount of sp that character has already trained. i think even CCP said learning skills were a bad idea, so remove them have all characters start with them maxed, then give older players who have trained them a 100-200% bonus time equivelent to the sp they have trained in learning =\
Vespoi Filar	Posted - 2010.04.23 19:56:00 - [6] Originally by: Aqriue One million Six hundred thousand (1,600,000) points of fast learning towards anything. Its best used to get those learning skills to 4/3 or 4/4 unless your looking to make a specialized cyno alt or small trader character. Its like one week of invested time at double speed if you concentrate on it, which can shave days off any short term plan. It already exists what your asking for. But doesn't change the fact that a new player has to invest all that frickin time training the HORRIFIC learning skills. Lets just kill em. Start at 4/3 4/2 4/1 4 who cares. At the very least it ameliorates one of the biggest dumb ideas implemented at the dawn of time.
el Sabor	Posted - 2010.04.23 20:03:00 - [7] I agree... I've been playing a while and frankly don't give a crap if I lose out having wasted a week or two training them. Get rid of 'em. It definitely puts newer players off.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.04.23 20:22:00 - [8] How do you compensate for the fact that newcomers get an increased learning rate? --
AterraX Caldari	Posted - 2010.04.24 11:12:00 - [9] Edited by: AterraX on 24/04/2010 11:12:51 Edited by: AterraX on 24/04/2010 11:12:34 This post said it best: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1290489&page=2#44 Originally by: Charles Park Hey I think Engineering and Electronics are stupid skills. Why should noobs have to spend time training those skills to 5 to be able to fit their ships properly. Its ridiculous! I say remove Engineering and Electronics and increase the powergrid and cpu of all ships to make them easier to fit. Who cares about n00bs? If they can't figured out a balanced traning plan, they can go play WoW ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character...
1600 RT	Posted - 2010.04.24 11:21:00 - [10] give the option to remove the 100% training bonus and give new player all the learning skills to lv 4.

DangerosoDavo Gallente Stella Contego Security Stella Stargate Security	Posted - 2010.04.24 11:26:00 - [11] Why? that would make spending the 25M on learning skillss at the start poinltess, it took me along time to be able to afford those advanced learnings ksills when i was starting out, 100% modifier on training is good enough maybe started them out @ lvl 3 on basics but not advanced. i remember starting with 'some' learning skills when i first made my account so i think 'some' learning skills should be given just not many. and no advanced at all. _______________________________________________ Regards Davo
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.04.24 14:08:00 - [12] Better yet, remove them altogether. They are a total waste of time and database space and CCP themselves have admitted that it was a mistake to introduce them in the first place. Like to blow stuff up? Vote Sokratesz for a PVP voice!
Party Scout	Posted - 2010.04.24 14:12:00 - [13] Originally by: Whitehound How do you compensate for the fact that newcomers get an increased learning rate? No need to compensate. It will help all of us in the end. I have 5/4 learning, but if they give everyone 5/5 including me, and new characters, fine by me. I agree that learning skills are simple one terrible idea. I like stats, but learning is just a time sink. A time sink to reduce another time sink... Crap, it's just a compounded time sink, and adds very little to the game. Remove please, even if old players do not get something out of it, it still benefits the community after all. Now, if CCP could remove the learning skills, and give those skills points back to the user to drop anywhere they want, then better. That way, there are no wasted skillpoints. Anyway, remove them! learning skills suck balls on all levels.
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.04.24 14:16:00 - [14] Originally by: DangerosoDavo Why? that would make spending the 25M on learning skillss at the start poinltess, it took me along time to be able to afford those advanced learnings ksills when i was starting out, 100% modifier on training is good enough maybe started them out @ lvl 3 on basics but not advanced. i remember starting with 'some' learning skills when i first made my account so i think 'some' learning skills should be given just not many. and no advanced at all. 25M in skill books is also another reason to give new characters the learning skills. 25M for a newb is a lot of money (several decently fitted cruisers.) Originally by: Whitehound How do you compensate for the fact that newcomers get an increased learning rate? 4/3 learning skills is 448,769 skill points according to EveMon. If newbs started with 4/3 learning skills then I would say just knock the boosted training from 1.6 to 1.1 million skill points. ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Party Scout	Posted - 2010.04.24 14:18:00 - [15] Originally by: DangerosoDavo Why? that would make spending the 25M on learning skillss at the start poinltess, it took me along time to be able to afford those advanced learnings ksills when i was starting out, 100% modifier on training is good enough maybe started them out @ lvl 3 on basics but not advanced. i remember starting with 'some' learning skills when i first made my account so i think 'some' learning skills should be given just not many. and no advanced at all. "I suffered so everyone else should suffer too!!!" That's a bad way to look at things. Removing learning skills is a good idea. If CCP can give those skills back to the player to use somewhere else, then better. But not necessary really.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.04.24 14:30:00 - [16] Just on the side, I like(d) training the learning skills. It helped me to make my mind up of how dedicated I am going to play EVE. I do know that dedication is not for everybody. --
Party Scout	Posted - 2010.04.24 14:50:00 - [17] Originally by: Whitehound Just on the side, I like(d) training the learning skills. It helped me to make my mind up of how dedicated I am going to play EVE. I do know that dedication is not for everybody. I trained learning skills to 5/4 because it is required if you want to play EVE for a while. However, I consider all that time to be completely wasted. I do not get a "happy" feeling for all that wasted time, nor does it make me more "dedicated" than the next person. Pointless timesink to reduce more timesinks is completely pointless. Any other skill you train has some actual use in game (allow use of a module, or ship, or increase damage, effectiveness), but not learning skills.
spiked amarr Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.04.25 01:37:00 - [18] +1 If more people to kill come out of This idea then I'm satisfied.
Commander Spectre Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.04.25 03:22:00 - [19] Edited by: Commander Spectre on 25/04/2010 03:26:06
Gray Pawn	Posted - 2010.04.25 05:26:00 - [20] When figuring out what to do with the learning skills, the points of contention seem to arise from the skills being kept as is - simply to raise stats. Those who already have invested 1.6 mil points into learning don't like the idea of losing their training time. Similarly, veteran players probably also dislike the idea of giving newbies an advantage which was not present when they, the veterans, started. Not to mention the fact that skill point reimbursement is a tricky subject... Why not turn the skills into something useful instead? If the skills were still useful, the veterans wouldn't end up with useless skills and CCP wouldn't have to figure out a way to refund skill points. The bonus that new players would get over the old (if the skills were kept as is) would be negated by using this plan: 1. Learning skills would no longer boost stats - learning skills will instead boost skills and allow the use of higher grade implants. 2. For example, an extremely well learned player, i.e. 5/4 in both perc and will, would have an innate grasp on all skills goverened by perc/will. 3. The "innate grasp" would essentially function as automatic skill levels. Continuting the perc/will example, a charcter with 5/4s in both perc and will would behave has if he/she had level 3 in all perc/will governed skills. 4. The exact formula will be as follows: (For calculating innate levels in Gunnery, for example) (Iron Will Levels + Spatial Awareness Levels + Focus Levels + Clarity Levels)/6 = Innate Levels Using the aforementioned formula, players would top out at an innate level of 3 with learning skills at 5/4. 5. Players would still have to formally train through all skill levels in order to get to level 5. The idea being that even with "innate" abilities, people still need to go through formal school to learn the building blocks necessary to achieve even higher levels of expertise. This would also ensure that the veteran players did not waste time training skills from level 1 to 3. 6. Additionally, as was already mentioned in this thread, the learning skills could also be a prerequisite for the use of higher level implants. This will still make the learning skills valuable for the veteran players who already have high levels in most learning skills. 7. The level of implant usable would be equal to the level of advanced skill training. In other words, at level 5 Focus the character would be able to use the +5 perception implant. The idea is that newer characters cannot use implants becaue their brains can't handle them. Only after sufficient training and development can their minds be sufficiently conditioned to accept mental implants. 8. The actual "Learning" skill can continue to function as it does currently. I doubt anyone will complain about the rather small amount of time it takes to get the skill to level 5. Using this system, learning skills would have a role in the EVE universe and not be completely useless. Likewise, there'd be no need to refund skills points to those who have trained the learning skills. New players would train learning skills to gain innate levels (allowing them to jump into the game faster) and use implants. Older players would continue being able to use the highest level implants and also benefit from having most (if not all) skills at innate level 3.

Kanatta Jing	Posted - 2010.04.25 08:15:00 - [21] I support 4/3 for starter characters.
Typhado3 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.25 08:40:00 - [22] 1st: Ravenal has based his calculations of base attribute points being 29 when it's actually 39. He has also stuffed his data by including implants to make the difference between no learning skills and learning skills even bigger. One thing that I must add here. The number of skillpoints added by your suggestion is (including learning at 4): 391,530 45,225 = rank 1 skill at lvl 4 24,000 = rank 3 skill at lvl 3 so around 70k for 1 attribute to basic lvl. also for reference 8,000 = rank 1 skill at lvl 3 You know what I noticed about this number, it's rather small. Honestly I wouldn't care if characters where given this much sp to start with. If people think this is too much of an advantage ccp could fiddle with how long they get the x2 training bonus for to even it out. As someone who trained all skills to 5 and invested in a +5 implant set (that I never seem to get to use ) giving everyone this even with no compensation I would shrug off just a with any other eve loss. I also agree that it might bring more instant fun to the many people as they wouldn't feel they need to train all those learning skills first. HOWEVER I still disagree with this idea. Eve is very much about long term investments, making your own fun as well as there is no best of anything. I believe the learning skills are an important lesson in this area. This may mean noobies spend up to 1/4 of their starting time training learning skills but that's ok imo. If your wondering what the lesson to be learnt from the learning skills is imo there isn't one awnser theirs several: you trained all to 4/3 at start - You have a slight edge but you spent a lot of time waiting. Are you willing to do that for the rest of your eve carear? you trained them only when you needed them - You got to play around a lot more but are a small bit behind the guy who invested his time. Should you try investing more time for a slightly better edge? (eg. traing intercepters to lvl 5) you didn't train any learning skills - You would be able to do more if you'd invested your time wisely. The problem imo is that people say you must do the first way and that people just accept that and far too often don't try and learn anything from this or even think about it. Rather than trying to think over their actions to see if they could have done something differently they come and whine about how annoying it is that they have to do it. ------------------------------ God is an afk cloaker
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.04.25 09:54:00 - [23] Edited by: Whitehound on 25/04/2010 09:56:11 Originally by: Typhado3 .. I also agree that it might bring more instant fun to the many people as they wouldn't feel they need to train all those learning skills first. ... I am going to correct you on this one. The presence or absence of learning skills has no effect on the fun factor of EVE. One can always choose not to train them. The time saved and invested in i.e. gunnery skills will only provide a player with a vanishing small benefit. There will always be other players who dominate by having more skills, especially over the newcomers. Instead, practising patience with the skill training is key to having long lasting fun with EVE. Avoiding the learning skills will teach newcomers this lesson when it is too late and they are starting to abort skill training and switch to another skill and thereby messing it up for themselves. I have seen players, who started with an entirely new char, because they believed their first character was trash and with not having trained the learning skills. Starting a new character is however the biggest waste of time and those who do such a thing because of a false believe are on the edge of being crazy. This thread here only shows that the learning skills are "spot on". Instead, I suggest that we have another set of learning skills on top of the already existing ones. Let us have some more learning tears. --
Takseen	Posted - 2010.04.25 10:28:00 - [24] I'm in favour of this idea for a few reasons. First is it should be very easy for CCP to implement since they don't have to fiddle with tens of thousands of existing characters, they just need to change the settings for what new players start with. Database guy will be pleased. Second is that 4/3 learning is the "no-brainer" option. It takes very little time to learn and provides a massive boost to training speed. Anyone starting their first character would be stupid not to train atleast that far, so why not just take that into account and save them the time. No other skillset that I can think of is pretty much mandatory for all main character roles.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2010.04.25 13:39:00 - [25] No need. The only problem with the learning skills is the ridiculous advice veterans give noobs that they must training learning skills first or they are dumb. That's the best way to train up an alt, not your first and primary character. A first and primary character should explore the game having fun - switching between learning skills and function skills as needed as they figure out what they want to do in the galaxy.
Misanthra	Posted - 2010.04.25 23:17:00 - [26] Not really needed. having rolled a few alts, real easy to get learnings to 4 and very capable frigate pilots under the 1.6 mil sp boosted learn cutoff. Half the noob problems in the game, imo, are people rushing to the big ships. Frigate flying is where you will learn many of the rl skills needed to succeed in this game. If you can't learn to pulse your reps on a lv 1 and mix with speed tank effectively....3 and 4 is going to be very painful. These are rl skills you can learn while grinding out the 4's. Learning is boring...spice it up with some basic support skills, most learn real quick to 3/4. Use evemon/evehq, great tools to plan trains. Very doable to load up a mixed train qeue of learning,weapons, learning,tank,learning,some oher skill and be effective.
Tarik Ordway	Posted - 2010.05.06 02:11:00 - [27] +1 from me. I'm trying to recruit a few friends to play EVE-Online, and they're all creating multiple trial accounts just to do something while they train learning skills. When you only have access to a frigate for around 2 weeks, people get bored, don't activate their accounts, and move on to other MMOs where they can actually do something from the instant they log on. Imagine WoW if you had had to train your weapon skills from 1 to 400 before you could even kill anything to get to level 2. People would quit the game right then and there.
Misanthra	Posted - 2010.05.06 02:53:00 - [28] Originally by: Tarik Ordway +I'm trying to recruit a few friends to play EVE-Online, and they're all creating multiple trial accounts just to do something while they train learning skills. What can't you do on your main week first week of this game. They have made scanning easier (even give a tutorial agent for it now), nerfed requirememens for hacking and archeology. Have half a brain in your head you can grind lv 1's on skill level 3 ship, weapons and tank (and all train in the 1.6 cap in less than 4 days assuming you got money to buy the intro level skills). If you have not taught your friends to kite outside of bot optimals with missiles on a caldari toon or speed tank close to optimals on a gun race, how is that a game mechanism shortcoming? Armor/shield rep pulsing real life skill, have them learn not while "not doing anything". manual flying, rl skill, again something they can learn. So if they go pvp they don't do the pro flying stunts like coming in straight line to tackle.
Tarik Ordway	Posted - 2010.05.06 03:13:00 - [29] Originally by: Misanthra Originally by: Tarik Ordway +I'm trying to recruit a few friends to play EVE-Online, and they're all creating multiple trial accounts just to do something while they train learning skills. What can't you do on your main week first week of this game. They have made scanning easier (even give a tutorial agent for it now), nerfed requirememens for hacking and archeology. Have half a brain in your head you can grind lv 1's on skill level 3 ship, weapons and tank (and all train in the 1.6 cap in less than 4 days assuming you got money to buy the intro level skills). If you have not taught your friends to kite outside of bot optimals with missiles on a caldari toon or speed tank close to optimals on a gun race, how is that a game mechanism shortcoming? Armor/shield rep pulsing real life skill, have them learn not while "not doing anything". manual flying, rl skill, again something they can learn. So if they go pvp they don't do the pro flying stunts like coming in straight line to tackle. Sure they're able to do it. It's what they've been doing on the trial accounts so far. But this is a game, not real life. That's a common misconception a lot of people make. A game is built with the sole purpose to entertain people. It's not entertaining to waste your time, even if you benefit in the long run. Take my friends for example. They'd really like to get a cruiser. If they bite the bullet and do all their learning skills from the beginning, they'll benefit from it in the long run, but they'll suffer from combat and be limited to running level 1 skills for at least two weeks. Sure it's doable, but you have to consider it's a game above all else.
Diabolyc Amarr Bunny Mafia	Posted - 2010.05.06 03:56:00 - [30] from other topic: Originally by: Diabolyc frankly it takes only 16 days w/o implants to finish all learning skills on 4. then if someone have a friend/corp mate/anyone so he can help him with +3 implants and for that you only need cyber on 1 (takes 30 min)... even faster then 16 days. the only problem what i can see here is the price of adv learning skills not the time what you need to finish them. and just to add something - with all on 4 you will be at 1.2-1.3 mil SP so you have room to train something else with 100% speed bonus. just no.

Misanthra	Posted - 2010.05.06 04:01:00 - [31] Edited by: Misanthra on 06/05/2010 04:02:42 Quote: Sure they're able to do it. It's what they've been doing on the trial accounts so far. But this is a game, not real life. That's a common misconception a lot of people make. A game is built with the sole purpose to entertain people. It's not entertaining to waste your time, even if you benefit in the long run. Take my friends for example. They'd really like to get a cruiser. If they bite the bullet and do all their learning skills from the beginning, they'll benefit from it in the long run, but they'll suffer from combat and be limited to running level 1 skills for at least two weeks. Sure it's doable, but you have to consider it's a game above all else. see your point. Just different design philosophies. Least we have cheap implants unlike the older players now though, all comes out in the wash at some point if you get them early as well lol. This stuff do work down the road. PITA, but thankful I did this. Main is respecing from missiles to guns more quickly (a portion of my 1.6 boost went to missiles besides learning...silly me liked pvp and that is now biting me in the ass :( ) . Friends will catch up lol, eve is a game that rewards patience. Why I like the training scheme, lets you catch up and surpass those who didn't think things out. Adds some need to think the character creation process out unlike other games.
Boshell	Posted - 2010.05.07 00:10:00 - [32] I've been trying desperately to get my friends into the game, but it is very difficult when I have to explain to them that their first week must be devoted to learning skills, during which character progression is simply non-existant. Needless to say, out of the 5 or 6 who started out being interested, after 2 days of learning skills they packed up and said "screw this". Truth is, I would love to see more in the way of helping new players become interested in the game, but many older players are greatly against it. Even if it means the population never really moving past it's current mark, their toons get to be the biggest and the best and that is what matters. Still, despite their protests I imagine things like this will end up being implemented one day, though, if nothing else then because more players = more money for CCP. The best suggestion I heard was the possibility of opting out of the 1.6m bonus and instead just starting with 1.6m into learning skills. This will keep the old elitists from QQing and the give new players a better reason to want to play the game. Those of us who suffered through the learning skills will be SOL but so what? We get more people to kill and I'm all for that. This is a multiplayer game... be nice to see more players. :)
Diabolyc Amarr Bunny Mafia	Posted - 2010.05.07 01:05:00 - [33] Originally by: Boshell bla invite your friends with buddy program - they will have 21 not 14 (or 15) days to try the game, its free and once they will pay its +30 days for you. and about numbers - when i start to play eve on login page was 10-15k ppl, now that number is going between 35-50k and more. next... the price of +4 implants are now what was before +3 and ofc last but not least all new char have 2 remaps. i really do not see any problem here. my opinion the only thing what ccp need to change is the price of adv learning skills.
Misanthra	Posted - 2010.05.07 01:10:00 - [34] Learning skills are optional, learn them or don't. Make game appealing to new players? Lets just make life easier for new players by giving elec 5, engi 5, WU 5 and AWU 5 while we are at it. Wouldn't want a person who rushed into a bs in 2 weeks having problems fitting it lol . This learning is cake and something you will think blew by fast months down the road. If smart enough to do you are rewarded. If not, enjoy the longer road to t2 ships and fittings.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.05.07 01:28:00 - [35] Originally by: Boshell I've been trying desperately to get my friends into the game, but it is very difficult when I have to explain to them that their first week must be devoted to learning skills, during which character progression is simply non-existant. You don't have to train them. If they offer no character progression then why would you ever train them. Don't blame the game when it is your own misinformation which keeps people out. - DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ
Boshell	Posted - 2010.05.07 01:30:00 - [36] Originally by: Misanthra Learning skills are optional, learn them or don't. Make game appealing to new players? Lets just make life easier for new players by giving elec 5, engi 5, WU 5 and AWU 5 while we are at it. Wouldn't want a person who rushed into a bs in 2 weeks having problems fitting it lol . This learning is cake and something you will think blew by fast months down the road. If smart enough to do you are rewarded. If not, enjoy the longer road to t2 ships and fittings. Learning skills are hardly "optional". As the OP suggested, no one would say "no" to 4x learning speed unless they couldn't deal with having a game and not playing it. First impressions are EVERYTHING, and the first impression EVE gives is that it is one of the most boring games ever created. It isn't until you get past the boring learning skills. Your teenage sarcasm about the other skills to V is cute, for sure. :) How's that working out for you, btw... trying to be cute, I mean? :) Learning skills are an ill-thought out waste of time for a character. You are given 1.6m SP of 100% bonus time to get through skills that really shouldn't even be in place to begin with. At least the removal of them would give new players the joy of actually getting to ENJOY the game at first rather than sitting around wishing they could find a FUN space MMO. Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Boshell I've been trying desperately to get my friends into the game, but it is very difficult when I have to explain to them that their first week must be devoted to learning skills, during which character progression is simply non-existant. You don't have to train them. If they offer no character progression then why would you ever train them. Don't blame the game when it is your own misinformation which keeps people out. Because sitting around learning skills that increase the rate at which you learn skills for the first week of your gameplay is so super exciting! You should work in public relations. >_>
Amaurotique	Posted - 2010.05.07 01:34:00 - [37] Originally by: Boshell Originally by: Misanthra Learning skills are optional, learn them or don't. Make game appealing to new players? Lets just make life easier for new players by giving elec 5, engi 5, WU 5 and AWU 5 while we are at it. Wouldn't want a person who rushed into a bs in 2 weeks having problems fitting it lol . This learning is cake and something you will think blew by fast months down the road. If smart enough to do you are rewarded. If not, enjoy the longer road to t2 ships and fittings. Learning skills are hardly "optional". As the OP suggested, no one would say "no" to 4x learning speed unless they couldn't deal with having a game and not playing it. First impressions are EVERYTHING, and the first impression EVE gives is that it is one of the most boring games ever created. It isn't until you get past the boring learning skills. Your teenage sarcasm about the other skills to V is cute, for sure. :) How's that working out for you, btw... trying to be cute, I mean? :) Learning skills are an ill-thought out waste of time for a character. You are given 1.6m SP of 100% bonus time to get through skills that really shouldn't even be in place to begin with. At least the removal of them would give new players the joy of actually getting to ENJOY the game at first rather than sitting around wishing they could find a FUN space MMO. Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Boshell I've been trying desperately to get my friends into the game, but it is very difficult when I have to explain to them that their first week must be devoted to learning skills, during which character progression is simply non-existant. You don't have to train them. If they offer no character progression then why would you ever train them. Don't blame the game when it is your own misinformation which keeps people out. Because sitting around learning skills that increase the rate at which you learn skills for the first week of your gameplay is so super exciting! You should work in public relations. >_> +1 Despite the protests of the people who don't like new players starting the game, I think the idea of giving new players more reason to want to play is a great idea. Rather than just GIVING them something, the idea someone put out earlier of having the chance to say no to the 1.6 million SP 100% bonus in exchange for getting those 4/3 learning skills (which comes nowhere near 1.6m SP, meaning you'd lose a ton of bonus time but gain a ton of playing time) is perfect. You wouldn't be "giving away" anything, you'd be offering a solid choice for new players.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.05.07 01:41:00 - [38] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 07/05/2010 01:45:18 Originally by: Boshell Because sitting around learning skills that increase the rate at which you learn skills for the first week of your gameplay is so super exciting! You should work in public relations. >_> You should learn to read. Originally by: Amaurotique having the chance to say no to the 1.6 million SP 100% bonus in exchange for getting those 4/3 learning skills (which comes nowhere near 1.6m SP, meaning you'd lose a ton of bonus time but gain a ton of playing time) is perfect. You wouldn't be "giving away" anything, you'd be offering a solid choice for new players. They already have a choice. Train the skills straight away or don't. And the choice you are quoting is actually exactly the same choice - choosing whether to start with extra 'general' SP or the learning skills is the same as choosing whether to spend the first week on extra 'general' SP or the learning skills. - DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ
Boshell	Posted - 2010.05.07 01:52:00 - [39] Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 07/05/2010 01:45:18 Originally by: Boshell Because sitting around learning skills that increase the rate at which you learn skills for the first week of your gameplay is so super exciting! You should work in public relations. >_> You should learn to read. Originally by: Amaurotique having the chance to say no to the 1.6 million SP 100% bonus in exchange for getting those 4/3 learning skills (which comes nowhere near 1.6m SP, meaning you'd lose a ton of bonus time but gain a ton of playing time) is perfect. You wouldn't be "giving away" anything, you'd be offering a solid choice for new players. They already have a choice. Train the skills straight away or don't. And the choice you are quoting is actually exactly the same choice - choosing whether to start with extra 'general' SP or the learning skills is the same as choosing whether to spend the first week on extra 'general' SP or the learning skills. lolwut? So you are saying there is no difference between A) spending 1-2 weeks doing nothing but training learning skills B) opting to lose a portion of your bonus SP to start with those learning skills on day 1 so you can immediately start having fun doing other stuff? Really? It sounds like a winner to me. They can either skip the grind and get their learning skills, which comes out to be less than 1.6m, and lose the remainder of their bonus OR they can opt to have their bonus. Folks who do the latter are people who don't care about that week or two and would much rather take full advantage of the bonus putting all 1.6m towards learning skills OR they are people who don't care about learning skills and want to put 1.6m towards something else.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.05.07 01:58:00 - [40] After randomly wandering into this thread I have finally actually read the OP. Originally by: stoicfaux Problem a) Eve is a pew-pew internet spaceship sandbox game. b) The Learning skills are boring. No skill is more or less boring than any other, all are simply timers. No skills require you to sit still and do nothing to raise them. Originally by: stoicfaux c) Boring makes for a bad Newbie First Experience. d) Unfortunately, learning skills have such a large impact on skill training time that it is "stupid" not to learn them first. As pointed out by Ravenal in this post, implants and learning skills can allow you train at 4x (!!!) the base rate, a boost that is too hard to ignore. The objective of the game is not to minmax. The learning skills are not mandatory. You say it is stupid not to train them, while advocating that people bore themselves to the point of leaving the game to get them trained. Between the guy with the inefficient training plan and the guy who bored himself out of a game, guess which one is actually more stupid. Originally by: stoicfaux Proposal Allow new characters to start with the basic learning skills at level 4 and the advanced learning skills at level 3. This would remove the "need" for newbies to spend their few moments of Eve on training learning skills. It would still allow players the option to invest in the time to further improve their training skills to 5/5. The learning skillbooks cost 25 million isk, which is a considerable sum for a newbie. What's more fun, buying skillbooks or ships? Predicated on a fictional requirement to learn these skills first. Originally by: stoicfaux Issues Not fair to anyone who already trained learning skills There are a couple of possibilities: a) Tough! "Your online experience may change." Older players will have to suck it up. b) Skill Credit. Credit older players the skill points. This could be done via accelerated skill training such as how new characters get a training boost. c) TBD. The 4/3 learning skills could be implemented now and a skill credit solution can be determined later since the information is in the database. a) is sufficient. There is no skills race. People who think there is are as bad as the people who train learning skills day one. Originally by: stoicfaux But... Patience and Discipline are Virtues - Why are we dumbing down, WoW-ifying, pandering to instant gratification crowd, etc.? For the simple reason that learning skills are boring and the boost they provide is too large to ignore. For the simple reason that people are more willing to pay $$ to mine, build, and/or shoot than they are to sit on their thumbs waiting for learning skills to finish. For the simple reason that "mandatory" learning skills annoys those who are Alt-aholics. Your alt winds up spending a lot of the 1.6 million accelerated training boost on learning skills than on your industry or faction warfare skills. - All skills are boring if all you do is watch them count down. - As stated above, no skills require you to sit on your ass to train them. - There are a lot of genuinely mandatory skills in any field - why not start by removing them? Originally by: stoicfaux Why not just give everyone Frigates V while we're at it? Each level of the frigates skill provides access to new ships and abilities. This is exciting, especially since it opens up new weapons and fittings to train for. Each level of a training skills allows you to train the next level of training skill that much faster. Zzzzzzzzz... So we are now going to remove all skills which do not give access to new items? Learning skills are fine. Some people these days don't like to have to make choices, others will do whatever they are told by others to the point of driving themselves out of the game? Too bad. - DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ

Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.05.07 02:02:00 - [41] Originally by: Boshell lolwut? So you are saying there is no difference between A) spending 1-2 weeks doing nothing but training learning skills B) opting to lose a portion of your bonus SP to start with those learning skills on day 1 so you can immediately start having fun doing other stuff? Really? Option A loses you general SP in your first days to get the learning skills early. Option B loses you general SP in your first days to get the learning skills early. Quote: you can immediately start having fun doing other stuff The learning skills are not a prerequisite to acquire 'fun'. - DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ
Boshell	Posted - 2010.05.07 02:10:00 - [42] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Boshell lolwut? So you are saying there is no difference between A) spending 1-2 weeks doing nothing but training learning skills B) opting to lose a portion of your bonus SP to start with those learning skills on day 1 so you can immediately start having fun doing other stuff? Really? Option A loses you general SP in your first days to get the learning skills early. Option B loses you general SP in your first days to get the learning skills early. Quote: you can immediately start having fun doing other stuff The learning skills are not a prerequisite to acquire 'fun'. Option A gains you more bonus time at the cost of real time. If you opt to use the bonus on learning skills, you can get them far higher. Perfect for alt sellers on char bazaar Option B loses you general SP in your first days but gains you real time. You lose a good portion of your bonus SP, but instantly gain your learning skills and can IMMEDIATELY begin training something else. Very different choices here.
Tarik Ordway	Posted - 2010.05.07 02:16:00 - [43] Originally by: Crumplecorn The objective of the game is not to minmax. The learning skills are not mandatory. You say it is stupid not to train them, while advocating that people bore themselves to the point of leaving the game to get them trained. Between the guy with the inefficient training plan and the guy who bored himself out of a game, guess which one is actually more stupid. I don't think you understand the concept of what minmaxing actually means. Or, rather, it's very clear to me you have absolutely no idea about the terms you're attempting to use to make your argument more compelling than the others. Lets use an example, shall we? Player A ignores learning skills. He goes for a cruiser. How long will it take for a character to pilot a cruiser effectively with no learning skills, and no implants? To get a cruiser remotely capable of firing it's guns as well as surviving any sort of damage, it would take 18 days. This is with all skills necessary at level 2-3, excluding Drones which is at 5, considering I used a Vexor as an example. While it's true that if he trained learning skills, he could get all of those requirements within 6-7 days, less than half. But that'd be multiple days wasted of doing nothing. Now lets say he CONTINUES to ignore learning skills and tries to start maxing some of those skills. They take exponentially longer than they would with learning skills. Also, if you don't train learning skills first? The time it takes to train those learning skills goes from approximately 14-18 days to 48 days or so. I think it's a grand idea to have a friend shoot for a larger ship first, then wait even LONGER to catch up to me. Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: stoicfaux Proposal Allow new characters to start with the basic learning skills at level 4 and the advanced learning skills at level 3. This would remove the "need" for newbies to spend their few moments of Eve on training learning skills. It would still allow players the option to invest in the time to further improve their training skills to 5/5. The learning skillbooks cost 25 million isk, which is a considerable sum for a newbie. What's more fun, buying skillbooks or ships? Predicated on a fictional requirement to learn these skills first. Again, you're blatantly ignoring the amount of time it takes too train these skills, and how long of a wait there is. Originally by: Crumplecorn - All skills are boring if all you do is watch them count down. - As stated above, no skills require you to sit on your ass to train them. - There are a lot of genuinely mandatory skills in any field - why not start by removing them? A lot of skills are mandatory, but all of those skills give a benefit to you in some way. Last I checked, Learning doesn't help you shoot any faster. Nor does it allow you to soak anymore damage. Originally by: Crumplecorn Learning skills are fine. Some people these days don't like to have to make choices, others will do whatever they are told by others to the point of driving themselves out of the game? Too bad. Learning skills are redundant. They don't serve to do anything in the game aside give older players something to whine about.
Amaurotique	Posted - 2010.05.07 02:20:00 - [44] Originally by: Crumplecorn The objective of the game is not to minmax. The learning skills are not mandatory. You say it is stupid not to train them, while advocating that people bore themselves to the point of leaving the game to get them trained. Between the guy with the inefficient training plan and the guy who bored himself out of a game, guess which one is actually more stupid. I'm sorry do you actually know what minmaxing is? The learning skills are the perfect example of minmaxing...
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.05.07 02:24:00 - [45] Originally by: Boshell Option A gains you more bonus time at the cost of real time. If you opt to use the bonus on learning skills, you can get them far higher. Perfect for alt sellers on char bazaar Option B loses you general SP in your first days but gains you real time. You lose a good portion of your bonus SP, but instantly gain your learning skills and can IMMEDIATELY begin training something else. The choices are so similar that there isn't even a real choice here. Bonus time is merely bonus SP distributed over time. The option to start with the learning skills done is immediate bonus SP. Assuming you are going to start by attaining the learning skills one way or another, both options are exactly the same, except in the details of exactly how many SP you end up with - both offer a portion of the learning skills as bonus SP. So the real choice remains whether to start with the learning skills or not. - DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ
Amaurotique	Posted - 2010.05.07 02:30:00 - [46] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Boshell Option A gains you more bonus time at the cost of real time. If you opt to use the bonus on learning skills, you can get them far higher. Perfect for alt sellers on char bazaar Option B loses you general SP in your first days but gains you real time. You lose a good portion of your bonus SP, but instantly gain your learning skills and can IMMEDIATELY begin training something else. The choices are so similar that there isn't even a real choice here. Bonus time is merely bonus SP distributed over time. The option to start with the learning skills done is immediate bonus SP. Assuming you are going to start by attaining the learning skills one way or another, both options are exactly the same, except in the details of exactly how many SP you end up with - both offer a portion of the learning skills as bonus SP. So the real choice remains whether to start with the learning skills or not. You're missing the point and looking at it all wrong. If you pick option A AND training your learning skills during that time, you will progress farther over the course of the year but will have to invest your present time to do so. NO instant gratification. (OR they could use that 1.6m to go do something else like train a low SP trading alt or research alt). If you pick option B you will gain your learning skills immediately, meaning instant gratification, but will NOT progress as far over the course of the year as option A, who chose the... lets say "investment" route and took their learning skills much farther much faster. Sure, you could try to learn to remaining skills now which might possibly even the two choices out so they come to be about the same time, but why bother? /shrug. I'm looking at the situation where the person who chooses option B is doing so in order to have "average" learning skills to be done with them and move on to the fun stuff, even if it means not being as well built as the person who chose option A. You are assuming that instant gratification at the cost of long term reward is the same as choosing NOT to be instantly gratified so that you can win in the long run. That's an erroneous view of the options.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.05.07 02:38:00 - [47] Originally by: Tarik Ordway While it's true that if he trained learning skills, he could get all of those requirements within 6-7 days, less than half. But that'd be multiple days wasted of doing nothing. So let me get this straight - you are saying that by using the learning skills to reduce the total time to get something he is wasting time? I'm not clear on what you are getting at here. Originally by: Tarik Ordway I think it's a grand idea to have a friend shoot for a larger ship first, then wait even LONGER to catch up to me. If his objective is to fly a ship early on and not to participate in some imaginary race, it probably would be a good idea. Originally by: Tarik Ordway Again, you're blatantly ignoring the amount of time it takes too train these skills, and how long of a wait there is. What does the absolute amount of time involved have to do with anything? Originally by: Tarik Ordway A lot of skills are mandatory, but all of those skills give a benefit to you in some way. Last I checked, Learning doesn't help you shoot any faster. Nor does it allow you to soak anymore damage. Again, if learning skills don't offer a benefit, simply never train them. Originally by: Tarik Ordway Learning skills are redundant. They don't serve to do anything in the game aside give older players something to whine about. See above. - DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ
Tarik Ordway	Posted - 2010.05.07 02:52:00 - [48] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Tarik Ordway While it's true that if he trained learning skills, he could get all of those requirements within 6-7 days, less than half. But that'd be multiple days wasted of doing nothing. So let me get this straight - you are saying that by using the learning skills to reduce the total time to get something he is wasting time? I'm not clear on what you are getting at here. Originally by: Tarik Ordway I think it's a grand idea to have a friend shoot for a larger ship first, then wait even LONGER to catch up to me. If his objective is to fly a ship early on and not to participate in some imaginary race, it probably would be a good idea. Originally by: Tarik Ordway Again, you're blatantly ignoring the amount of time it takes too train these skills, and how long of a wait there is. What does the absolute amount of time involved have to do with anything? Originally by: Tarik Ordway A lot of skills are mandatory, but all of those skills give a benefit to you in some way. Last I checked, Learning doesn't help you shoot any faster. Nor does it allow you to soak anymore damage. Again, if learning skills don't offer a benefit, simply never train them. Originally by: Tarik Ordway Learning skills are redundant. They don't serve to do anything in the game aside give older players something to whine about. See above. If you're so adamant about learning skills being something of choice, why not create a new alt with no intention too train learning skills at all. Just intend to enjoy the game and don't bother with them. See how long it takes for you to get into something reasonable.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.05.07 02:52:00 - [49] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 07/05/2010 02:53:42 Originally by: Amaurotique Both options involve sacrificing instant gratification to enhance the learning skills, as the both involve giving over the bonus time to the learning skills. Granted, with option B you do get to start training other stuff straight away - but at a slower rate than if you ignored the learning skills completely and used your bonus time on other stuff. I have a feeling that the specifics of the numbers may make one of these options redundant anyway, since the lowest levels of the learning skills make it quicker to get into your first cruiser or whatever, rather than slower, and since the instant gain of learning skills offsets the loss of bonus time somewhat. Originally by: Tarik Ordway If you're so adamant about learning skills being something of choice, why not create a new alt with no intention too train learning skills at all. Just intend to enjoy the game and don't bother with them. See how long it takes for you to get into something reasonable. That's how I developed my main. I (almost) never trained learning skills unless they reduced the time for the very next thing I was going for. - DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ
Typhado3 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.05.07 07:55:00 - [50] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Tarik Ordway If you're so adamant about learning skills being something of choice, why not create a new alt with no intention too train learning skills at all. Just intend to enjoy the game and don't bother with them. See how long it takes for you to get into something reasonable. That's how I developed my main. I (almost) never trained learning skills unless they reduced the time for the very next thing I was going for. did the same here. Now my main has almost 80 mil sp. and when friends join i don't tell them to spend the first week sitting in station training learning skills. I tell them their there and let them work out for themselves when to train em. These learning skills act as a first lesson in eve teaching people to balance effectiveness and fun. It seems half the people in this thread ignored that lesson and still try to view eve in terms of black and white. ------------------------------ God is an afk cloaker

Hodgekiss	Posted - 2010.05.07 15:36:00 - [51] I am in the "I actually dont mind the learning skills" camp. Yeah, they suck a bit and they cost a lot, but the whole point of EvE is watching your character grow and mature. You are all talking from the point of view of experienced players who know how to play the game and therefore dispise anything that eats into precious training time (as am I) but the learning skills encourage a brand new player to stay in the n00bship for a bit and learn to run missions properly before jumping into cruisers on their second day. It makes it an actual achievement to get more weapons and more ships rather than a formality. There is nothing that says a brand new player MUST do the learning skills first. Of course, as experienced players we know from starting up alts that the most efficient way in terms of sp/hour overall is to train to 4/3 or 5/4 to start with whilst the speed bonus is still in effect, but that is because we already know the game mechanics. A new player isn't concerned with being imba on their first day, and when I started my first character I went for the skills that allowed me to use a better frigate and non-civillian guns before I even looked at what learning skills could do. The advanced learning skills are more expensive for the same reason. Having extra attribute points only affects rank 1 skills (which is what you will be using as a newbie) by a few minutes or a couple of hours at the most for level 5. You start to notice the need for the advanced learning skills when you start hitting rank 8 or 10 skills to level 5, and find out that one attribute point might make a difference of a few days. THATS when you shell out your 25 mil because its at THAT stage that you need it and also at THAT stage where you have that sort of cash. Someone mentioned that it puts new players off when more experienced players are telling them that they have to spend their first month training boring learning skills, but again, they are receiving the opinion of a more experienced player. Although it's more inefficient in the long run new players should be encouraged to train learning skills as they need them, and just have fun in their first few weeks. I started a new main character after a break of a couple of years along with a RL friend who was completely new to the game. I played the efficiency card and he went straight for cruiser. I loved the fact that two brand new characters were playing the game so differently. He was flying a bigger ship before me, yet after a couple of months my increased training speed meant that I caught up and passed his number of SP. He had just as much fun as he wanted in his early days flying his cruiser, and didn't mind at all that he then had to bite the bullet and get into the learning skills, just as I didn't mind flying a smaller ship than him becuase I knew that I would catch up. I don't think the argument against learning skills is being fought by the newbies who have to train them, I think that it is being fought by people who, like me, are starting their third account and are fed up with having to go through it YET AGAIN! Maybe THAT is the issue that requires attention? Maybe CCP should find some way of allowing a learning-skill reprieve for players who run multiple paid accounts? Anyway, you dont want TOO many nerfs for new players. My girlfriend plays WoW at a high level (yes ok its WoW.. but she IS a girl so it's forgiveable ), but they have made it so easy nowadays to progress that end-game is just crammed with annoying children and any sense of achievement gained by owning high level items is quashed by the fact that everyone else has one too. Do you REALLY want to send EvE in that direction? An army of annoying 5 year-olds flying Titans? No ores left because you can get into a hulk in 3 days? No way. Let's keep the grind so that the rewards still feel worthwhile!
TheBlueMonkey Gallente Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.07 15:51:00 - [52] Didn't learning skills get introduced because people were crying over how long some of the skills take? Then didn't the advanced ones get introduced for the same reasons? Either way I could care less as long as who ever makes the change calculates how many extra skill points I should have based on the time I spend mixing generic skills in with learning skills to get to where I am today and then let me spend those sp on skills. For that matter, why not include all the generic skills in your proposition? I mean, navigation is a boring skill as is burst control, weapons upgrades etc etc etc. where do you stop? I'm currently finding battlecruiser 5 very dull, can I have that for free too? wait... no... giving me all 5's would make the game dull and pointless -- Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
Jinx Marx Vagrant Troubadours of the Vast Expenses	Posted - 2010.05.07 19:01:00 - [53] I wouldn't mind this aspect of the game to be improved, but I don't understand how it is such an issue to begin with. I was a newbie once, about a year ago. My first training month was a mix of learning skills and "useful" skills. Enough to have a decent Merlin to farm level 1 missions while I finished training basic learning skills to 5 near the end of the month. I could have skipped those and stay at 4/4 or 4/3, but I choose to get them out of the way early. And I didn't have the impression of losing my time, being quite busy learning how to play the game. I guess it does help if you assimilate the notion that EvE is all about long term plans. If you can't stand training skills that doesn't give you immediate satisfaction, then you might reconsider investing in this game. You don't get into this kind of game if you're impatient. Even if you get to cruisers a little sooner, at some point or another you'll have to train ridiculousy long skills that are only prequesites to other ridiculously long skills. What are we saying to those who quit EvE because they think it's too long to train for Heavy Assault Cruisers? Do we propose to nerf the skill ranks? Nah, I guess we would tell them to be patient or to gtfo. It's funny how sometimes we pride ourselves about how much EvE is a harsh place and blah blah blah, but it's too harsh for noobs to suffer about three weeks of Learning skills training in their first couple of months? Three weeks in a game that is supposed to be played for months if not for years? Oh, so cruel! Again, if there's a way to improve this, great. But I don't believe it's such a grave issue.
Zachary Sikorsky	Posted - 2010.05.08 17:34:00 - [54] Originally by: Tarik Ordway Imagine WoW if you had had to train your weapon skills from 1 to 400 before you could even kill anything to get to level 2. People would quit the game right then and there. Weeeeell.. As everyone knows you have to level that stupid toon up to max level before you can start playing with it.. Although that only take a few days of intensive gaming (if you put your soul to it). That being said the best solution is to remove the skills from the game and award all players with any sp's in the skills that amount of training time to put into any skills. The mechanic should already be in place since a similar thing happened from time to time in the early days of this game (overtraining obviously was a bug, but they had the code to stop you from loosing trained time).
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.05.09 00:07:00 - [55] I support 4/3 for starter characters. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Nauplius Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard	Posted - 2010.05.09 00:40:00 - [56] EVE Online is responsible for two of the all time stupidest design decisions in the history of MMO Gaming. One of them was the T2 BPO lottery. The other is the Learning Skills. Why CCP insists on driving away new players with no positive gameplay return whatsoever is beyond me.
Frank d'Fairy	Posted - 2010.06.28 19:50:00 - [57] +1 For the proposal, a damned fine compromise between the two schools of thought as I understand them. One can only hope this sees serious consideration from CCP. I have to agree, as a vet, that any way you slice them: learning skills are pure tedium. It still bothers me when training them on alts, but for rookies it's down-right infuriating. Most of my friends who try EVE love it until they start to dedicate some time to learning skills, and at that point they decide to take a break until the learning skills finish, or they just leave the game. 4/3 would still allow for the "long term" planners (and alts) to sink their early points into better training speed, but it would also get rookies into the game faster without as much of a massive stumbling block between subscribing and enjoying the many fascets of gameplay EVE offers.
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.06.28 19:59:00 - [58] I support this proposal. I would like to add 2 thoughts along these lines. One is that new characters should probably start out with Cybernetics 1. It let's them skip the time of training the Science pre-req and let's them use implants immediately ( which +1's or +2's should probably be available to them through the Tutorial or an Epic Arc or something ). Also, I think you will see a small number of people who don't like that the learning skills will "cut into" their 1.6m double speed bonus time. That's ok and I think it wouldn't be so bad to extend that period somewhat. This leaves the game pretty much totally intact while giving new players the leg-up that a lot of people seem to be advocating. TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
Ravien Kariak Gallente	Posted - 2010.06.28 21:15:00 - [59] been reading this thread and i can see the sides here but id like to put forward a simpler solution.. remove the learning skills completely and simply offer increased stats in character creation. when i picked my character i went for engineer assuming that would make me have better stats on my ships from the off.. to an extent that was true but looking back the actual gameplay difference it made was minimal. so id propose if the learning skills were removed (ignoring compensation etc for now) to have a greater skillset applied by your background aswell as buffed statistics specific to your chosen character type. so if your a special forces you'd have more offensive skills/drones and the associated attributes from the go.. if your a industrialist you would start with more mining and processing skills so on and so forth. thats my ten pence anyway Too Much Light Hides the Shadows
WaffleOfDoom	Posted - 2010.06.28 23:47:00 - [60] i spent 2 months leveling up those skills... why cant u do the same thing? then why cant i have all races bs 5 because i cant catch up woth older players? =p don try to fix what aint broken.

Nnamuachs Caldari Kiith Paktu Hiigaran Protectorate	Posted - 2010.06.29 01:34:00 - [61] Originally by: Ravien Kariak been reading this thread and i can see the sides here but id like to put forward a simpler solution.. remove the learning skills completely and simply offer increased stats in character creation. when i picked my character i went for engineer assuming that would make me have better stats on my ships from the off.. to an extent that was true but looking back the actual gameplay difference it made was minimal. so id propose if the learning skills were removed (ignoring compensation etc for now) to have a greater skillset applied by your background aswell as buffed statistics specific to your chosen character type. so if your a special forces you'd have more offensive skills/drones and the associated attributes from the go.. if your a industrialist you would start with more mining and processing skills so on and so forth. thats my ten pence anyway Whats this obsession with some people i always see to "compensate" the learning skills with additional attribute points. Why don't we just pull the learning skills out and leave everyone at base stats instead.. seems far more fair to me.
HeliosGal Caldari	Posted - 2010.06.29 02:12:00 - [62] give us +6 implant boosters
Misanthra	Posted - 2010.06.29 02:59:00 - [63] Originally by: HeliosGal give us +6 implant boosters Its in game already. remap with +3's or higher after learning skills learned to at least 4/3. More advanced learning you have, better the remap boost. And here's a nifty trick, boost the charisma even if no desire the learn the skills they influence. Easy couple of points to remap right there. And to the whole baseline stats or skills for everyone...no. This part of the character customization and where you define your character. This should not be hand fed. Player chooses to do this, he is rewarded for his patience. Player chooses not too, no reward. Happens alot in this game so may as well get used to it. Power train to a BS with no support skillz for cap, tank, or weapons and will have problems for example.
suspisious	Posted - 2010.06.29 08:48:00 - [64] The learning skills are a cleverly disguised beartrap. And all newbies will step on it. And yes learning skills are about choice. option one: a friend gets you into the game. And he tells you that you can look at all the pretty ships but not touch. get learning up first. how fun! He'll try to explain that the more sp you put in it now the better it gets later. option two: You clicked the fun looking game add and started a trial on your own. some time later you join a corp and they look at your skill-list and ask why you didnt learn learning skills. Then they explain you could have been flying battlecruizers by now if you did the learning skills early. how fun! cutting the trainingtime in half for the first 1.6 million sp is good for new players so they can quickly get to a basic level for whatever proffesion they wish. To bad you gotta spend some of those points on learning if you want to stay for the long run. Id prefer removal all together. (give the points back in double training time or something) Starting at 4/3 learning if fine as well.
The Milka	Posted - 2010.06.30 00:43:00 - [65] Edited by: The Milka on 30/06/2010 00:47:23 +1 learning skill is boring if new player want to play eve more then 3 month all of them must get this skills its boring and make them away from eve just remove this skills


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