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| Author | Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
 Mr Kipper    |
Posted - 2003.06.27 11:19:00 -
[61] "Quit your whining" !! A game is about a lot more than how much eqiptment and money you can gain its about fun , if you are not having fun then i suggest you go do something else. Besides only mininmaxing powergamers will have battleships in month most of us mortals still fly humble old cruisers, Maybe if you developed lives outside EVE you wwouldnt be on 24/7 And therefor have complteted it already. |
 Mr Kipper |
Posted - 2003.06.27 11:19:00 -
[62] "Quit your whining" !! A game is about a lot more than how much eqiptment and money you can gain its about fun , if you are not having fun then i suggest you go do something else. Besides only mininmaxing powergamers will have battleships in month most of us mortals still fly humble old cruisers, Maybe if you developed lives outside EVE you wwouldnt be on 24/7 And therefor have complteted it already. |
 Tharrn |
Posted - 2003.06.27 11:30:00 -
[63] It's like in any MMOG: people who are just rushing towards that highest level or best equipment will tell you they have seen all and done all when they are there - and then they quit claiming the game is boring. That's why people actually roleplaying are the ones that last longest in almost every online-game :P For the Battleships: with a little thinking one might find them... tehehe. Just sitting at a gate for days on end is probably not the solution ;) |
 Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria |
Posted - 2003.06.27 11:30:00 -
[64] It's like in any MMOG: people who are just rushing towards that highest level or best equipment will tell you they have seen all and done all when they are there - and then they quit claiming the game is boring. That's why people actually roleplaying are the ones that last longest in almost every online-game :P For the Battleships: with a little thinking one might find them... tehehe. Just sitting at a gate for days on end is probably not the solution ;) Ceterum censeo 'Concordia' esse delendam. |
 Carp Riddell |
Posted - 2003.06.27 11:39:00 -
[65] Spot on Tharn! There's an "R" in "MMORPG" for a very good reason. Boredom is a dead cert if you're hell bent on treating Eve as a "Massively Multiplayer Online exercise in applied mathematics"... (Oooh, it hurts to agree with a *****y Amarr!) - Carp Riddell - CEO, Innsmouth Shipping - Proud Member of Curse Alliance |
 Mulu Xump |
Posted - 2003.06.27 11:39:00 -
[66] I agree with the things that have been said about trading in this thread. I want to be a trader but because I have to work and I'm not able to login at 13:01 GMT with a fleet of Bestowers at my command the career isn't open to me. I'm prepared to stick it out though and I hope CCP will reward me for my patience (and subs). As for high level content. If people want to play the game like there doing their maths homework and it has to be in by tommorow then who's fault is that? I suspect that they'de get bored with the high level content even if it was there. If you're bored go and do something else. You really don't HAVE to play Eve. ----------------------------------------- Don't jump off the roof dad. You'll make a hole in the yard. ----------------------------------------- |
 Mulu Xump Amarr |
Posted - 2003.06.27 11:39:00 -
[67] I agree with the things that have been said about trading in this thread. I want to be a trader but because I have to work and I'm not able to login at 13:01 GMT with a fleet of Bestowers at my command the career isn't open to me. I'm prepared to stick it out though and I hope CCP will reward me for my patience (and subs). As for high level content. If people want to play the game like there doing their maths homework and it has to be in by tommorow then who's fault is that? I suspect that they'de get bored with the high level content even if it was there. If you're bored go and do something else. You really don't HAVE to play Eve. ----------------------------------------- Don't jump off the roof dad. You'll make a hole in the yard. ----------------------------------------- |
 Carp Riddell Minmatar Sebiestor tribe |
Posted - 2003.06.27 11:39:00 -
[68] Spot on Tharn! There's an "R" in "MMORPG" for a very good reason. Boredom is a dead cert if you're hell bent on treating Eve as a "Massively Multiplayer Online exercise in applied mathematics"... (Oooh, it hurts to agree with a *****y Amarr!) - Carp Riddell - CEO, Innsmouth Shipping - Proud Member of Curse Alliance |
 Brock |
Posted - 2003.06.27 12:02:00 -
[69] >>Just as a matter of interest, how many of those of you complaining in this thread that there's nothing left to achieve in the game are _actually_ flying battleships? The galaxy is hardly swarming with them.<< That pre-supposes that the only progression people want in this game involves moving on to a bigger and better ship. Im talking about events. I dunno, maybe a wormhole opens in one system through it flows a stream of uber equipment. Players flood the system and fight it out for possession. Maybe some brave sould take the leap through it and communication with them is lost... yadda yadda you get the picture! Whether CCP has built a game engine that could deal out that kind of narrative is a whole other question. I think Axelay mentioned the extreme lag people had when he was part of a 30 player battle... so it doesn't look very feasable Im afraid. |
 Brock Gallente Aliastra |
Posted - 2003.06.27 12:02:00 -
[70] >>Just as a matter of interest, how many of those of you complaining in this thread that there's nothing left to achieve in the game are _actually_ flying battleships? The galaxy is hardly swarming with them.<< That pre-supposes that the only progression people want in this game involves moving on to a bigger and better ship. Im talking about events. I dunno, maybe a wormhole opens in one system through it flows a stream of uber equipment. Players flood the system and fight it out for possession. Maybe some brave sould take the leap through it and communication with them is lost... yadda yadda you get the picture! Whether CCP has built a game engine that could deal out that kind of narrative is a whole other question. I think Axelay mentioned the extreme lag people had when he was part of a 30 player battle... so it doesn't look very feasable Im afraid. |
 Ywev |
Posted - 2003.06.27 12:42:00 -
[71] Ywev We have several things planned for you :) You wont be in it for much longer so I would start saving for your next one if I was you! Oh, all your long range stuff is gettin nerfed :( btw, did ya like our range/damage? :) However, there is no high game content, or content at all, so sitting here killing people is losing it's fun. Yea, people whine and what not, but I don't see it lasting long. It's only gonna make more corp go pirating because there is nothing to do once you obtain a high level. nothing at all. Pod ya later.. Ywev |
 Ywev Minmatar |
Posted - 2003.06.27 12:42:00 -
[72] Ywev We have several things planned for you :) You wont be in it for much longer so I would start saving for your next one if I was you! Oh, all your long range stuff is gettin nerfed :( btw, did ya like our range/damage? :) However, there is no high game content, or content at all, so sitting here killing people is losing it's fun. Yea, people whine and what not, but I don't see it lasting long. It's only gonna make more corp go pirating because there is nothing to do once you obtain a high level. nothing at all. Pod ya later.. Ywev |
 ChironV |
Posted - 2003.06.27 12:49:00 -
[73] You want a challenge... Find a Pirate Station. Destroy it. ________________________________________________ It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, |
 ChironV Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc. |
Posted - 2003.06.27 12:49:00 -
[74] You want a challenge... Find a Pirate Station. Destroy it. ________________________________________________ It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, |
 Krait |
Posted - 2003.06.27 13:10:00 -
[75] I think that one change could really impact game play. That would be to make security ratings work. If you were preying on Amarr convoys...Amarr security would be crap and you would be unable to use Amarr bases..in fact would be fired upon on sight. Make being, or attacking a specific race amount to something. I can kill Gurista's and still use a Gurista base...give me a break. What pirate organization would let me drop in for a tank of gas, check the tires and clean the windshield to go back out and kill some more of them. It would complicate travel, trade and combat. You would have to consider the consequences of your actions. Maybe then the NPC battleships that they can't find would come out. Besides...he wants some competition, go to a 1.0 system in his battleship and start picking on cops or newbies. I'd be interested in know if any battleships come out then. _______________________________________________ ...been there, done that |
 Krait Caldari OHG Corp |
Posted - 2003.06.27 13:10:00 -
[76] I think that one change could really impact game play. That would be to make security ratings work. If you were preying on Amarr convoys...Amarr security would be crap and you would be unable to use Amarr bases..in fact would be fired upon on sight. Make being, or attacking a specific race amount to something. I can kill Gurista's and still use a Gurista base...give me a break. What pirate organization would let me drop in for a tank of gas, check the tires and clean the windshield to go back out and kill some more of them. It would complicate travel, trade and combat. You would have to consider the consequences of your actions. Maybe then the NPC battleships that they can't find would come out. Besides...he wants some competition, go to a 1.0 system in his battleship and start picking on cops or newbies. I'd be interested in know if any battleships come out then. _______________________________________________ ...been there, done that |
Teris Kender |
Posted - 2003.06.27 13:42:00 -
[77] I don't think players like Ywev would be interested in any kind of "content" anyway, unless it was yet more powerful weapons, monsters (oops, I mean NPC pirates), or ships. All the points on this thread about "what EVE really needs" boils down to one thing. There really is nothing you NEED in this game. No maintenance, no upkeep, no storage fees, etc. It's just make money to buy more crap. Yes, you can role-play...and I do think that is what will keep players, but there isn't all that much players can do to RP on their own. I'm sure among the older players, there is longtime experience with playing MUDS. You could implement a lot of interesing RP with MUDS, with EVE it's just your ship and chat. How about some player customization abilities? With items, bookmarks, example: "buy" a pirate spawn? (or NPC drone) leave a msg in a container? "buy" an artifact? Let's find something to really spend all that isk on. |
 Teris Kender Caldari Frontier Mining and Manufacturing |
Posted - 2003.06.27 13:42:00 -
[78] I don't think players like Ywev would be interested in any kind of "content" anyway, unless it was yet more powerful weapons, monsters (oops, I mean NPC pirates), or ships. All the points on this thread about "what EVE really needs" boils down to one thing. There really is nothing you NEED in this game. No maintenance, no upkeep, no storage fees, etc. It's just make money to buy more crap. Yes, you can role-play...and I do think that is what will keep players, but there isn't all that much players can do to RP on their own. I'm sure among the older players, there is longtime experience with playing MUDS. You could implement a lot of interesing RP with MUDS, with EVE it's just your ship and chat. How about some player customization abilities? With items, bookmarks, example: "buy" a pirate spawn? (or NPC drone) leave a msg in a container? "buy" an artifact? Let's find something to really spend all that isk on. |
Ywev |
Posted - 2003.06.27 13:54:00 -
[79] Ya know that is a great idea, I am gonna go into, .5 .6 .7 .8 .9 1.0 sec systems now and start killing afk indy miners, cops have no bearing on my bship now, toss a shield booster they barely get through that. Hmm what an idea, Man some people are gonna be hurting to night :) Pod ya later.. Ywev |
Ywev Minmatar |
Posted - 2003.06.27 13:54:00 -
[80] Ya know that is a great idea, I am gonna go into, .5 .6 .7 .8 .9 1.0 sec systems now and start killing afk indy miners, cops have no bearing on my bship now, toss a shield booster they barely get through that. Hmm what an idea, Man some people are gonna be hurting to night :) Pod ya later.. Ywev |
 Athren Soulsteal |
Posted - 2003.06.27 14:18:00 -
[81] [Ya know that is a great idea, I am gonna go into, .5 .6 .7 .8 .9 1.0 sec systems now and start killing afk indy miners, cops have no bearing on my bship now, toss a shield booster they barely get through that. Hmm what an idea, Man some people are gonna be hurting to night :)] Here's a better idea.. Go to all the home worlds and tag their statues. Every home has monuments, thats what missing the gang tags painted on the side of them. That would keep you busy for a few days just in travel time. |
 Athren Soulsteal Gallente Intergalaxy Salvage And Repair |
Posted - 2003.06.27 14:18:00 -
[82] [Ya know that is a great idea, I am gonna go into, .5 .6 .7 .8 .9 1.0 sec systems now and start killing afk indy miners, cops have no bearing on my bship now, toss a shield booster they barely get through that. Hmm what an idea, Man some people are gonna be hurting to night :)] Here's a better idea.. Go to all the home worlds and tag their statues. Every home has monuments, thats what missing the gang tags painted on the side of them. That would keep you busy for a few days just in travel time. I wish I could fit all the Quote |
 Kaiser |
Posted - 2003.06.27 14:48:00 -
[83] I disagree on making stronger pirates. it won't resolve anything. do people really believe EVE can last 1 or 2 years (and so creating a core community of players playing it for long) just fighting NPC pirates? No matter how strong pirates are, players will be stronger. and in any way, i fail to see how a player can have fun for 6 months killing pirates. The game lacks only one thing: territories. Give tools to build guns or stations and in general tools for a corp/player to claim a system and control. and you'll see territories/empires forming up, corp wars, diplomacy. and the game will suddenly be another game. IMO CCP should push the game towards pvp, territorial wars to add diplomacy, wars, expansionism. Adding simply more ships or loot or make harder to make money just put a *ittle/ more far the line where people will get bored. but you won't keep people playing eve for 1 year just with that. |
 Kaiser Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc. |
Posted - 2003.06.27 14:48:00 -
[84] I disagree on making stronger pirates. it won't resolve anything. do people really believe EVE can last 1 or 2 years (and so creating a core community of players playing it for long) just fighting NPC pirates? No matter how strong pirates are, players will be stronger. and in any way, i fail to see how a player can have fun for 6 months killing pirates. The game lacks only one thing: territories. Give tools to build guns or stations and in general tools for a corp/player to claim a system and control. and you'll see territories/empires forming up, corp wars, diplomacy. and the game will suddenly be another game. IMO CCP should push the game towards pvp, territorial wars to add diplomacy, wars, expansionism. Adding simply more ships or loot or make harder to make money just put a *ittle/ more far the line where people will get bored. but you won't keep people playing eve for 1 year just with that. |
Morkt Drakt |
Posted - 2003.06.27 15:57:00 -
[85] Just out of interest..Yewy what exactly is this special "high level" that you have obtained? <-- pointing out the obvious since 22654 Edited by: Morkt Drak on 27/06/2003 15:57:32 |
 Morkt Drakt Caldari Black Omega Security |
Posted - 2003.06.27 15:57:00 -
[86] Just out of interest..Yewy what exactly is this special "high level" that you have obtained? <-- pointing out the obvious since 22654 Edited by: Morkt Drak on 27/06/2003 15:57:32 |
 Fusco T |
Posted - 2003.06.27 19:56:00 -
[87] My brother actually created a java/web based game with an sql backend that had more true creativity than this game has. If anyone is familiar with tradewars it was similar except way more involved. The playerbase actually created and controlled the world. You could build planets You could set up beacons, fighter drones, large solar powered weapons. You managed your planets population and production. The mob threat was random and sometimes very powerful, they could strike anywhere. There were three basic char types. Thief, fighter and trader. EACH one could compete equally through completely different ways and had their own unique abilites. No rock, paper scissors BS. Dynamic market. Was turn based to avoid power gaming. Had built in mapping feature with customized colors so one could track what he'd discovered (including signs other players left, beacons etc..) Not saying it was perfect but it had more actual challenge. This was one guy who at the same time was writing a hospital wide database app. Here they have a team of devs that can't figure out: Dynamic market math How to defeat network/game mechanics exploits. How to give non-power gamers a chance at true competition. A series of stats that measures success. A challenging AI. ... I will give CCP that this game has pretty eye candy. But I as well as a few others would probably agree, depth of the game is leagues more important than pretty backgrounds. So the current mode of competition remains: Har har I 0wnzrd j00. Step back for a second and take a look at a trend. The term "hardcore" players are usually meant those who like the shoot 'em. CCP seems to have an oppurtunity here to change the definition or at least add one where "hardcore" can mean create or destroy. Someone wants to compete through creation rather than destruction might be a good thing. In life skill at creation is MUCH more challenging than destroying. We have technology to destroy the eco system on this planet yet we don't have the technology to make a planet habitable. |
 Fusco T |
Posted - 2003.06.27 19:56:00 -
[88] My brother actually created a java/web based game with an sql backend that had more true creativity than this game has. If anyone is familiar with tradewars it was similar except way more involved. The playerbase actually created and controlled the world. You could build planets You could set up beacons, fighter drones, large solar powered weapons. You managed your planets population and production. The mob threat was random and sometimes very powerful, they could strike anywhere. There were three basic char types. Thief, fighter and trader. EACH one could compete equally through completely different ways and had their own unique abilites. No rock, paper scissors BS. Dynamic market. Was turn based to avoid power gaming. Had built in mapping feature with customized colors so one could track what he'd discovered (including signs other players left, beacons etc..) Not saying it was perfect but it had more actual challenge. This was one guy who at the same time was writing a hospital wide database app. Here they have a team of devs that can't figure out: Dynamic market math How to defeat network/game mechanics exploits. How to give non-power gamers a chance at true competition. A series of stats that measures success. A challenging AI. ... I will give CCP that this game has pretty eye candy. But I as well as a few others would probably agree, depth of the game is leagues more important than pretty backgrounds. So the current mode of competition remains: Har har I 0wnzrd j00. Step back for a second and take a look at a trend. The term "hardcore" players are usually meant those who like the shoot 'em. CCP seems to have an oppurtunity here to change the definition or at least add one where "hardcore" can mean create or destroy. Someone wants to compete through creation rather than destruction might be a good thing. In life skill at creation is MUCH more challenging than destroying. We have technology to destroy the eco system on this planet yet we don't have the technology to make a planet habitable. |
 Demangel |
Posted - 2003.06.27 21:41:00 -
[89] Is it really impossible to be fair to someone who has a valid point? Even if he did realise it from a bad angle? NPC pirates eed to be harder, but not by giving them exploitative super missiles, and speeds... Look at the NPC ships your fighting for a second. In an Atron I was capable of atomizing 6 NPC atrons, even when they DID have the exploited movement speeds. Why? I could mount two turrets a handful of defensive medium modules, and low slot modules. Well I can't speak for low or medium slot equipment, but I KNOW that NPC's never carry or at least never SHOOT more than one turret and or missile bay at a time. Take a look at blood collectors... once you have killed one, you have killed them all, they all use the same loadout, and use the same exact tactics. Lets say you run into an NPC thorax... Is it going to be outfitted with 5 decently powered turrrets Drones to fit the 2000 drone space? shield boosters and low item slots? No... Not likely. Instead you will face 2 thorax cruisers and a slew of Tristans flying escort. If those ships where PC's with even a half full loadout, your Moa would go boom very quickly... So CCP should make the challenges more realistic and balanced period. Look at NWN Encounter systems. Based on your characters levels ETC it will spawn more or less enemies, of higher or lower levels based on your Challenge rating. CCP could use a far similar system, especialy since I have a feeling that the way they initialy balanced ship fittings used a point buy system durring design phases. For example cruisers have maybe 1,000 points, each 50 units of drone space costing like 10 points maybe, each high slot costing 200 and so on. Naturaly some areas should be easier than others also... a .8 system shouldn't ever be filled with NPC pirate cruisers... Player pirates should be discouraged from killing NPC pirates. But until CCP makes it so Player pirates have to live in the wildlands, or Pirate controlled regions of space, they can kill whoever and whatever they want with impunity... Yeah that makes sense :/ As someone else said, the Economy is unresponsive to player actions, both short and long term. I'm not sure how CCP could easily track the effects of M0o's blockade on that area with game mechanics ETC. But surely they could role play this using thier GM powers. Raise the prices in the area, ETC. Trade routes as someone mentioned should have a time limit and if the supplies arn't delivered in a reasonable amount of time to fill the demand, something should occur in those places where the demand isn't reasonably met. For example if a station on the fringes needs 5K units of oxygen, if they don't get it nothing happens, life goes on. But in a more realistic system If the station doesn't get at least 3K Oxygen within a week, the demand should skyrocket for a very brief time, showing the desperation of the people living there to survive. If the xygen isn't delivered the demand will fall to near zero for a time to represent the death or exodus of citizens living and working there. Other services should also fail! What is to prevent griefers from seeding the market buy holding off on supplying the oxygen to raise the demand and price? Make it so that the demand will fluctuate as will the price in such a way that it will be hard to tell when the price will be good. Have the price raise steadily over time as well. At some point some newbish person will see what to them will be a nice price. but for a higher level character might be chump change. Thus the newb will try to fill the demand, lowering the price. Now if someone wants to blockade the border to keep the prices nice and high then one of two things will happen. They succeed in the blockade and make off like bandits (realistic), or Concord will arrive when the situation reaches a critical level to break the blockade and bring in humanitarian services resetting the demands (also realistic). These simple dynamics will give both lower end players, and higher end players a lot more interaction with the environment meaning more content, and more player created content. CCP needs to simply find the right balance between player influences that are exploitative and yet freeform enough to allow the game world to act alive. Not saying it's easy, but it CAN be done, and SHOULD be done, for EVE to fulfill it's grand designs... If CCP can do that, EVE WILL be exactly the kind of game we all know it can be. The best part is all of the tools exist in the game for them to do the kinds of things I am suggesting. The question is, will CCP give a similar concept a chance considering the other problems already on thier plate as it is? It is after all much easier to pander to the Power gamers than the intelectuals who look for imersion and dynamic experiences... Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you Demangel > Dude... I would call.. Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet. Galaxion > Just a bit. |
 Demangel Gallente |
Posted - 2003.06.27 21:41:00 -
[90] Is it really impossible to be fair to someone who has a valid point? Even if he did realise it from a bad angle? NPC pirates eed to be harder, but not by giving them exploitative super missiles, and speeds... Look at the NPC ships your fighting for a second. In an Atron I was capable of atomizing 6 NPC atrons, even when they DID have the exploited movement speeds. Why? I could mount two turrets a handful of defensive medium modules, and low slot modules. Well I can't speak for low or medium slot equipment, but I KNOW that NPC's never carry or at least never SHOOT more than one turret and or missile bay at a time. Take a look at blood collectors... once you have killed one, you have killed them all, they all use the same loadout, and use the same exact tactics. Lets say you run into an NPC thorax... Is it going to be outfitted with 5 decently powered turrrets Drones to fit the 2000 drone space? shield boosters and low item slots? No... Not likely. Instead you will face 2 thorax cruisers and a slew of Tristans flying escort. If those ships where PC's with even a half full loadout, your Moa would go boom very quickly... So CCP should make the challenges more realistic and balanced period. Look at NWN Encounter systems. Based on your characters levels ETC it will spawn more or less enemies, of higher or lower levels based on your Challenge rating. CCP could use a far similar system, especialy since I have a feeling that the way they initialy balanced ship fittings used a point buy system durring design phases. For example cruisers have maybe 1,000 points, each 50 units of drone space costing like 10 points maybe, each high slot costing 200 and so on. Naturaly some areas should be easier than others also... a .8 system shouldn't ever be filled with NPC pirate cruisers... Player pirates should be discouraged from killing NPC pirates. But until CCP makes it so Player pirates have to live in the wildlands, or Pirate controlled regions of space, they can kill whoever and whatever they want with impunity... Yeah that makes sense :/ As someone else said, the Economy is unresponsive to player actions, both short and long term. I'm not sure how CCP could easily track the effects of M0o's blockade on that area with game mechanics ETC. But surely they could role play this using thier GM powers. Raise the prices in the area, ETC. Trade routes as someone mentioned should have a time limit and if the supplies arn't delivered in a reasonable amount of time to fill the demand, something should occur in those places where the demand isn't reasonably met. For example if a station on the fringes needs 5K units of oxygen, if they don't get it nothing happens, life goes on. But in a more realistic system If the station doesn't get at least 3K Oxygen within a week, the demand should skyrocket for a very brief time, showing the desperation of the people living there to survive. If the xygen isn't delivered the demand will fall to near zero for a time to represent the death or exodus of citizens living and working there. Other services should also fail! What is to prevent griefers from seeding the market buy holding off on supplying the oxygen to raise the demand and price? Make it so that the demand will fluctuate as will the price in such a way that it will be hard to tell when the price will be good. Have the price raise steadily over time as well. At some point some newbish person will see what to them will be a nice price. but for a higher level character might be chump change. Thus the newb will try to fill the demand, lowering the price. Now if someone wants to blockade the border to keep the prices nice and high then one of two things will happen. They succeed in the blockade and make off like bandits (realistic), or Concord will arrive when the situation reaches a critical level to break the blockade and bring in humanitarian services resetting the demands (also realistic). These simple dynamics will give both lower end players, and higher end players a lot more interaction with the environment meaning more content, and more player created content. CCP needs to simply find the right balance between player influences that are exploitative and yet freeform enough to allow the game world to act alive. Not saying it's easy, but it CAN be done, and SHOULD be done, for EVE to fulfill it's grand designs... If CCP can do that, EVE WILL be exactly the kind of game we all know it can be. The best part is all of the tools exist in the game for them to do the kinds of things I am suggesting. The question is, will CCP give a similar concept a chance considering the other problems already on thier plate as it is? It is after all much easier to pander to the Power gamers than the intelectuals who look for imersion and dynamic experiences... Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you Demangel > Dude... I would call.. Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet. Galaxion > Just a bit. |
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