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Dear CCP, are you seriously launching Tyrannis next week ?

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Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.05.12 10:28:00 - [31] Sniping an Akita T thread. I like the way PI looks, as in graphically looks, setting up little networks and stuff is an amusing diversion. I'm dubious about its usefulness (who buys most the stuff you can make other than NPCs?), profitability and the low barrier to entry (let's market new industrial content at the minerals I mine myself are free crowd! \o/). - DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ
Calhontor	Posted - 2010.05.12 10:32:00 - [32] I have to agree that Tyrannis seems very early in development for something that is gonna be released next week. For the first time ever i would like for CCP to push back the expansion even if its by 6 months or so. Everyone had great hope for PI in eve and what Tyrannis brings us is a lines and dots clickfest and i for one am very dissapointed. Is it just me that feels CCP had a great oppottunity with PI and could have made something really fantastic that would bring eve to a whole new level but they have just not bothered to put in the effort? If i had designed the current version of PI and knew that it was gonna be implemented into eve i just wouldn't be all that happy tbh. Push it back plz even if we have to wait a year for something that remotely resembles sim city etc.
Sachan	Posted - 2010.05.12 10:38:00 - [33] Logged on to sisi when the PI stuff was getting added. Was pretty excited to get to play with it. That was until I actually used it. All I could say was, this is it? Push it back and go back to the drawing board. Tyrannis seems like a huge let down as an expansion.
Derus Grobb RipStar Mining Industries United Front Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.12 10:52:00 - [34] It seems like all we are getting is a basic version to prove the concept. I'm fine with that. Hopefully in 6 months time there will be a far more fleshed-out effort, complete with Dust514 integration. That's where the real fun starts ---
Steve Thomas Minmatar	Posted - 2010.05.12 11:05:00 - [35] heck they can even keep there dots and lines. Either they can take out some of the bulcrap that they larded on, or make the work worth the effort and agrivation that you want the players to put in and put up with. shesh how hard can that be to comprehend? . . . . . . . . a (Long) Guide to Pi
Neesa Corrinne Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2010.05.12 11:28:00 - [36] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Poo Ka'hontas But how can you possible know how the FINISHED product will be..? I don't know how the FINISHED product will be... my point is that it's nowhere near finished now, one week before launch day. Sure, PI might turn out to be a great thing... by late August or early December 2010, IF they keep working on it after launch... but not by May 18. Given CCP's track record of dropping a major new feature into the game that has 75% or less of the content that they stated it would have, and then never touching said feature again, I'm finding it hard to believe that PI will get a tweak any time soon. I'm sure you know this already, but I'm not holding my breath for it to be fixed at all after release, so I'm hoping that it does in fact get pushed back.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.05.12 11:54:00 - [37] Well, they stated they'll leave one of the two team in place to handle PI "improvements" after release, so at least there's a small chance they might actually do something with it soon rather than SoonÖ... ...but yeah, sadly true, I'm not holding my breath on any significant chances AFTER release. That's why I'd much rather prefer they don't release it at all now, but take a hard look at it and radically re-think it instead. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2010.05.12 12:12:00 - [38] I don't know why you even put the energy into arguing this Akita, we all know that they're only going to change development practices slowly and on their own time, for whatever reasons the guys at the top have.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.05.12 12:20:00 - [39] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste I don't know why you even put the energy into arguing this Akita 99% of it so that I can say "told you so" with a straight face (as usual) _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Guttripper Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.05.12 12:30:00 - [40] Could it be possible CCP is purposely going to limit the total output of items normally bought through the now defunct NPC merchants to cause a cascade of closed player owned stations? Then with less stations causes less owned space, forcing more smaller roaming gangs to possess smaller areas, and thus a better chances of pushing Empire dwellers into null security space? Meanwhile, the large alliances will be forced to splinter apart due to not enough basic means of running all the collected stations? This causes more skirmishes to outright wars, boosting the ship market, thus pushing the mineral market, etc., etc. Just speculations, of course.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2010.05.12 12:31:00 - [41] Originally by: Poo Ka'hontas But how can you possible know how the FINISHED product will be..? Oh yes, suuuuure. They totally develop something in secret for weeks and months and put a three-months old version on Sisi for the players and bug-hungers. So that on release-day they can surprise everyone with their FINISHED product. Riiiight?? No.... I must agree with Akita, and how sad is that?! I am sure the devs work as hard as they can and do the best thing they can do. But the whole concept at the moment seems to be ... uhm ... odd. Just a few points 1) Bad gameplay. Once you have installed your stuff - and that can be some sort of slight fun for a few hours maybe - it is only boring, boring, annoying, annoying, mind-numbing click-orgies. Once the installations are set, and that is done pretty fast, it is totally boring. Nothing to do. Just click, click, click ... wait, click, move stuff, wait more and click more. Just perfect for macros/bots but very bad for exciting gameplay. 2) Bad user interface. The user interface is just horrible and should be scrapped. It it confusing, doesn't fit into the other Eve UI and just lacks most of the administrative tools and statistics. Except for the scanner-slider, that one is cool (but sadly planetary scanning atm that is pretty bad gameplay, scanning down good resource locations should be some interactive mini-game, comparable maybe to hunting down exploration sites). 3) Bad economy. One big mistake is that the PI buildings (except the command center) just pop up out of nowhere and no materials are necessary for that (isk is removed from wallet automatically instead). A great opportunity wasted to introduce PI-stuff building here. Another mistake is that there are no upkeep costs. Another thing is the balancing of the output results. Balancing such a complex sort of activities requires more than a few hours of number crunching and some meeting afterwards. But I am sure Akita can say more about that 4) No direct player-player interaction (that belongs also to point 1, game design). Yes, it is said that interactions between players will come later, but since player-to-player interaction is such a cornerstone to any activity in Eve, it is difficult to see how some interesting PI can be implemented without the pvp activities. Yes, sometimes unfinished products are released and then improved later. That is especially true with CCP. It is ALL work in progress. But I think there is a difference in 'unfinished' and 'lacking most interesting features'. I really don't understand it. Why the obsession with two expansions per year when one GOOD expansion would be so much more? Or if you want to do two expansions, why don't you FOCUS on one feature and do that right? For example, why PI and Eve-Gate? Both are not good now, actually both are bad. Better produce few good features than many bad features.
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.05.12 12:33:00 - [42] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Selene D'Celeste I don't know why you even put the energy into arguing this Akita 99% of it so that I can say "told you so" with a straight face (as usual) That's assuming anyone has any expectations beyond a broken UI and some broken mechanics they may or may not get round to fixing one day. They use players for QA but then ignore the minor (and sometimes major) gripes that are posted as they don't have time to fix them, it's why we get so many stupid things in the game that never get fixed but build up to a complete overall mess. I'll give PI a go but with the expectation I'll be thinking 'why the hell did they do that?' on a regular basis.
Teinyhr Minmatar Nor'akho Matar	Posted - 2010.05.12 12:33:00 - [43] My edumacated guess is no matter how something is worked on or how much it would be delayde to be worked on, it will never be good enough for people of EVE. I haven't found a single damn thread here where someone isn't threatening to quit the game over something. MMO players are never happy with anything, at least unanimously. Roll on with Tyrannis CCP. Or don't, it's up to you. I can wait. ------------------- This is Sig. Launch every Sig. For Great Justice.
Drenan State War Academy	Posted - 2010.05.12 12:40:00 - [44] Edited by: Drenan on 12/05/2010 12:42:15 The fact that I am still getting no char pics on the selection screen, and that the old missile-effect 'loop' problem has resurfaced 7 days before launch...does not bode well for Tyrannis? Edit: Above happening on sisi
kurg	Posted - 2010.05.12 12:56:00 - [45] Are you all really a bunch of narrow minded naturally selected folks that simply can not even consider the fact that CCP has something call a "Road map" of their game and design, Is it really so hard to consider the fact that perhaps PI is being used as the base structure for a larger framework which will be used in a larger or future expansion? Perhaps cloths, wine, beer or materials required in order to form items for shops which Incarna will introduce, or lord forbid PI is also used to supply required items like ammo, bases, vehicles, weapons etc.. for DUST514. It never seizes to amaze me at the amount of natural selection on these forums.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.05.12 12:57:00 - [46] Originally by: Guttripper Could it be possible CCP is purposely going to limit the total output of items normally bought through the now defunct NPC merchants to cause a cascade of closed player owned stations? Then with less stations causes less owned space, forcing more smaller roaming gangs to possess smaller areas, and thus a better chances of pushing Empire dwellers into null security space? Meanwhile, the large alliances will be forced to splinter apart due to not enough basic means of running all the collected stations? This causes more skirmishes to outright wars, boosting the ship market, thus pushing the mineral market, etc., etc. No. For one, there's the basic self-defeating logic of what you're saying: stuff gets closed down because there's not enough consumables to go around, leaving room for new people to set up shopà which they can't because there's not enough consumables to go around. For the other, you might want to look into how space is owned these daysà ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.05.12 13:20:00 - [47] Poasting in a "latest expansion is the worst/destroys eve" thread. No, really though, from what I heard, highsec/lowsec planets are worthless, and I am not an industrialist. So the expansion would not matter to me one bit. So I would really like it to be postponed. This way I don't have to experience the instability that normally comes with a new patch until later.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.05.12 13:41:00 - [48] Originally by: kurg Is it really so hard to consider the fact that perhaps PI is being used as the base structure for a larger framework which will be used in a larger or future expansion? Given that CCP have basically admitted that it is going to be released in this state simply because they ran out of time, yes. And the main feature of an expansion shouldn't be a 'base structure' anyway. Unless of course it turns out they've done lots of secret work fixing other things as well. - DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ
Imiarr Timshae Caldari Funny Men In Funny Hats	Posted - 2010.05.12 14:02:00 - [49] Posting in another Akita T pre-patch "Omg buy this" thread. ----- Originally by: GM Horse Remember kids, both meth and macro use are Really Quite Bad Things. Originally by: CCP Shadow Tragic smelting accidents.
Lady Kascoff	Posted - 2010.05.12 14:52:00 - [50] Originally by: Akita T I find it hard to believe you can pull off a "fix" of PI in just one month, let alone one single week. Every time I managed to test it on SiSi, while looking graphically better, gameplay/UI wise it just kept getting from bad to ever so slightly less bad but weird and then to worse, and I don't have to begin to mention my thoughts with regard to your initial economic balancing (at least that requires the least changes, and seems to have been changed most often). If you think you can pull it off by May 18th, then let me offer my condolences to the player base that thinks about PI (or worse, to everybody using POSes if you also decide to cut NPC orders out) in advance, since it will be one of the most nerve-wracking expansions to date. Please consider pushing back Tyrannis for a month (or two) the very least, or maybe even NOT implementing PI with Tyrannis (although how could you do that since that's the only actual new feature). I went and looked at the SiSi feedback forum...and no one there is expressing the concerns that you are. No one. What I do see, glancing over the threads on the first and second page, are people getting to grips with the mechanics of PI. Not people screaming at CCP how broken PI is. Could it be that PI isnt meeting YOUR expectations and is there for broken, botched and screwed up beyond all recognition? From the threads in the test server feedback forum, the PI aspect is coming along nicely with some good complexities. The threads are asking questions about how the whole mechanic works...and I havent seen a single thread yet decrying PI. Link one...or you fail.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.05.12 14:53:00 - [51] Originally by: Aera Aiana I always wondered why they are using a fixed release cycle for EVE. It's not like they had to meet some publishers deadline (with the exception of the Apocrypha content patch). Imo the fixed schedule is a huge contributor to the unfinishedness that is EVE today. The flat rate two expansions a year with 4~6 months development time for each was a rather nessasary thing for ccp to do to quickly get content into the game given its rather sparse supply in the beggining up until just a few years ago. But as many players are starting to realise that frantic pace has cost in the quality department rather heavily but really ccp had no real choice in the matter as we are just now getting to the point that eve has sufficient content to keep a new player occupied for years instead of the months it used to be. I'm hoping that after incarna and dust hit they rethink that schedual and go to a moar reasoned development cycle that isn't all about getting it out NAO! just to keep the long term players happy with a bit moar stuff to train for and do. They could even keep the two expansions a year if they simply make each one a different focus so the devs in question can have an entire year to make sure its done right. Basically one new content expansion with whatever bug fixes make it in along with one old content refresher expansion with whatever other bug fixes are ready to be deployed. Then everyone is happy with solid well designed new content and old content finally fleshed out so even the older players will want to run it again. Pipe dreams I know.. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone!
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2010.05.12 14:58:00 - [52] Posting in an Akita T megathread SKUNK (o)
AkJon Ferguson	Posted - 2010.05.12 15:09:00 - [53] It's not CCP's incompetence that bugs me so much as their failure to recognize their own limitations. They're gonna have to rename New Eden Eden Zero pretty soon. Stop breaking the best MMO ever CCP! Fix the lag. Ban macroers. Keep server up and running with no database/other interruptions. That is all. Task all the other employees you have with something non-destructive like washing windows at corporate HQ. Hell, you can even let them use their tongues.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.05.12 15:20:00 - [54] Originally by: Lady Kascoff I went and looked at the SiSi feedback forum...and no one there is expressing the concerns that you are. No one. Right, no one... let's see... have you missed the sticky (4th thread in the series of threads about it) at least half-full of not so very rosy-cuddly-happy comments ? Well, I guess that's not enough, is it... Quote: I havent seen a single thread yet decrying PI. Link one...or you fail. ...then how about the shorter threads on the front page : timers nasty, several observations, clickfest anger, boredom/botting concerns. And that's all just on the front page... let's see what's on the second page, shall we ? Too simplistic, links concerns ,route annoyances, why so POS-ey with no upgrade, economic concerns. Oh, yes, I see, NOBODY ELSE HAS BEEN COMPLAINING, it must be just me and my imagination. Quote: What I do see, glancing over the threads on the first and second page, are people getting to grips with the mechanics of PI. Right, because everybody that posted there was a complete moron. True, some are rather... ahem... "simple", if you catch my drift, but there are plenty of concerns you can't just dismiss as "meh, idiots". _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Lady Kascoff	Posted - 2010.05.12 15:32:00 - [55] Edited by: Lady Kascoff on 12/05/2010 15:34:01 Edited by: Lady Kascoff on 12/05/2010 15:32:57 Edited by: Lady Kascoff on 12/05/2010 15:32:17 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Lady Kascoff I went and looked at the SiSi feedback forum...and no one there is expressing the concerns that you are. No one. Right, no one... let's see... have you missed the sticky (4th thread in the series of threads about it) at least half-full of not so very rosy-cuddly-happy comments ? Well, I guess that's not enough, is it... Quote: I havent seen a single thread yet decrying PI. Link one...or you fail. ...then how about the shorter threads on the front page : timers nasty, several observations, clickfest anger, boredom/botting concerns. And that's all just on the front page... let's see what's on the second page, shall we ? Too simplistic, links concerns ,route annoyances, why so POS-ey with no upgrade, economic concerns. Oh, yes, I see, NOBODY ELSE HAS BEEN COMPLAINING, it must be just me and my imagination. Quote: What I do see, glancing over the threads on the first and second page, are people getting to grips with the mechanics of PI. Right, because everybody that posted there was a complete moron. True, some are rather... ahem... "simple", if you catch my drift, but there are plenty of concerns you can't just dismiss as "meh, idiots". The first thread that you have posted is a FEEDBACK thread. Do you understand the concept of Feedback? Of course its going to have many negative posts and comments as that is how the development of a expansion works. And from reading them...no one is really saying that PI is totally broken. The first page links you gave me are the same. They are bringing up issues with what is essentially a working expansion. Not telling them to fix a broken expansion. Same with the second page of supposedly ranting threads saying how broken the expansion is. Simple fact of the matter is that, OVERALL, Tyrannis is a working expansion that is in need of tweaking. You...you are making it out to be totally broken and not working, which is clearly not the case. And...calling all the testers morons is...well...you know what it is. You tried to make all those posts look like outright negative posts of Tyrannis, which they are not. They are, for the most part, constructive criticisms of the expansion...and it is posts like that that help get a expansion developed.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.05.12 15:40:00 - [56] Edited by: Akita T on 12/05/2010 15:47:19 Originally by: Lady Kascoff The first thread that you have posted is a FEEDBACK thread. Do you understand the concept of Feedback? Of course its going to have many negative posts and comments as that is how the development of a expansion works. And from reading them...no one is really saying that PI is totally broken. Neither am I. I'm just saying IT'S NOT READY. When feedback becomes mostly positive instead of mostly negative, THEN you can start considering it ready. Quote: And...calling all the testers morons is...well...you know what it is. You indirectly called them all morons first, since you seemed to imply none of their concerns were legitimate, just "asking questions" (because they're not understanding) or "just coming to grips" (or in other words, no right to comment). Quote: The first page links you gave me are the same. They are bringing up issues with what is essentially a working expansion. Not telling them to fix a broken expansion. Same with the second page of supposedly ranting threads saying how broken the expansion is. How exactly do you define "working" ? Because a plank on two stick with two wooden discs on each is technically a carriage, but I wouldn't exactly CALL it a "working carriage", but more of a "work in progress". As in, "needs work". Or as in, "not ready YET". Quote: Simple fact of the matter is that, OVERALL, Tyrannis is a working expansion that is in need of tweaking. You...you are making it out to be totally broken and not working, which is clearly not the case. Not totally broken. Just not working decently enough to bother putting it in yet. Clumsy. Cumbersome. Unbalanced. NOT READY. Quote: You tried to make all those posts look like outright negative posts of Tyrannis, which they are not. They are, for the most part, constructive criticisms of the expansion...and it is posts like that that help get a expansion developed. AND HENCE MY URGING THEM TO DELAY IT -UNTIL- READY. -NOT- A DEMAND TO SCRAP IT. Savvy ? I'm not saying it's a bad expansion, nor that it would be a bad idea. I'm just saying it still needs quite a lot of extra work before it's worthy of going live. And that one week couldn't possibly be enough to get it reasonably ready. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Lady Kascoff	Posted - 2010.05.12 16:05:00 - [57] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 12/05/2010 15:49:29 Originally by: Lady Kascoff The first thread that you have posted is a FEEDBACK thread. Do you understand the concept of Feedback? Of course its going to have many negative posts and comments as that is how the development of a expansion works. And from reading them...no one is really saying that PI is totally broken. Neither am I. I'm just saying IT'S NOT READY. When feedback becomes mostly positive instead of mostly negative, THEN you can start considering it ready. Quote: And...calling all the testers morons is...well...you know what it is. You indirectly called them all morons first, since you seemed to imply none of their concerns were legitimate, just "asking questions" (because they're not understanding) or "just coming to grips" (or in other words, no right to comment). Quote: The first page links you gave me are the same. They are bringing up issues with what is essentially a working expansion. Not telling them to fix a broken expansion. Same with the second page of supposedly ranting threads saying how broken the expansion is. How exactly do you define "working" ? Because a plank on two stick with two wooden discs on each is technically a carriage, but I wouldn't exactly CALL it a "working carriage", but more of a "work in progress". As in, "needs work". Or as in, "not ready YET". Quote: Simple fact of the matter is that, OVERALL, Tyrannis is a working expansion that is in need of tweaking. You...you are making it out to be totally broken and not working, which is clearly not the case. Not totally broken. Just not working decently enough to bother putting it in yet. Clumsy. Cumbersome. Unbalanced. NOT READY. Quote: You tried to make all those posts look like outright negative posts of Tyrannis, which they are not. They are, for the most part, constructive criticisms of the expansion...and it is posts like that that help get a expansion developed. AND HENCE MY URGING THEM TO DELAY IT -UNTIL- READY. -NOT- A DEMAND TO SCRAP IT. Savvy ? I'm not saying it's a bad expansion, nor that it would be a bad idea. I'm just saying it still needs quite a lot of extra work before it's worthy of going live. And that one week couldn't possibly be enough to get it reasonably ready. I EVEN CONCEDED THE POINT THAT IF THEY DO NOT REMOVE NPC SELL ORDERS AT THIS TIME IT WOULD NOT BE A BAD IDEA TO PUT IT LIVE, BUT IT WOULD BE POINTLESS. The problem is, all signs do point towards they wanting to also remove NPC sell orders. If they won't, well, no harm done, go right ahead. While I may concede that getting rid of NPC Sell orders would be a bad idea for the first month or so of the expansion...I think that perhaps you were fear mongering a bit with you language. Thats all I really had issue with. As too the readiness of the expansion...CCP will do what they do best. Release something that isnt QUITE finished and fill in all the missing parts once its live. That is how we originally recieved EVE in 2003 after all isnt it?
Vossejongk Caldari Bendebeukers Green Rhino	Posted - 2010.05.12 16:06:00 - [58] Hi Akita Normally I have mad respect for you, but this time you look like a troll You do realize that not much on the test server is final right ^^ ----------------------------------------------- But then again I cant really approve of any of this because this is my signature
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.05.12 16:16:00 - [59] The difference at the end of the day is that problems in the game keep escalating and we have no reasonable expectation that it will stop anytime soon. COAD is quiet as a mouse these days with what seems like 75% of posts made simply to troll or chest beat... vastly different from what it was even six months ago before Dominion. Sure there is always a lot of chest beating, but I get the sense anymore that a majority of the posturing is because people are scared, not that they just want to show their bravado. EVE is supposed to be a sandbox, yes, but a sandbox where the shovels and buckets are in OUR hands, and it seems like this is the case less and less every day that goes by. CCP has opened a can of worms with all the new content in the past twelve months, and it seems like they have unintentionally placed themselves in a position where their momentum exceeds their stamina, and there are no brakes to be found, only an accelerator. {...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness}
Hakaru Ishiwara Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.05.12 16:24:00 - [60] Originally by: Drenan Edited by: Drenan on 12/05/2010 12:42:15 The fact that I am still getting no char pics on the selection screen, and that the old missile-effect 'loop' problem has resurfaced 7 days before launch...does not bode well for Tyrannis? Edit: Above happening on sisi A good question is posed by Drenan. That is, what old and previously fixed bugs will CCP's crack coding and QA teams / contractors allow back into the game? c / d?

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