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Stealth T2 BPO Nerf With Tyrannis....Kind Of

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Charles Park	Posted - 2010.05.20 22:51:00 - [1] From the Tyrannis patch notes: Quote: òIt is no longer possible to start a manufacturing job without having the required quantity of RAM Just tested it on the test server; the 'bug' we've all been ignoring where it tells you you don't enough RAM (even though you do) was apparantly not a bug but actually meant to stop you from producing items if you didn't have at least one RAM per item. I tried building 10 warp disruptor II's on the test server now with just 5 RAM's (25% damage per run = 2.5 rams consumed) and it wouldn't let me, I had to have 10. This isn't a huge deal for inventors I guess since we only build 10 at a time anyway but its certainly going to make BPO holders have a harder time building-have fun having building 1,000 small drones and having to always have 1,000 RAM on hand .
Plumpy McPudding Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.05.20 23:49:00 - [2] I used to build RAMs. They have such a long build time for the involved materials. But I guess that's because they're needed for T2. __________________________ Fear me for I have an insatiable appetite! Proprietor and inventor of Chocolate Chip Chocolate Donut flavored Ice Cream.
Ray McCormack Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2010.05.21 05:22:00 - [3] I thought this was a thread about my new Helios print, glad it isn't. I tend to have 1 unit of RAM per run anyway, regardless of damage. Titan BPC For Sale \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Sanguis Sanies Amarr	Posted - 2010.05.21 05:34:00 - [4] RAM are going up ... Excellent No longer will I be restrained to a mere 100% profit!
EvilCheez	Posted - 2010.05.21 07:45:00 - [5] If all that is the case, they are going up for a short time, then maybe very far down. Being that you can repair ram for a small fraction of the build cost, you will now be able to use the same ram for a t2 bpo forever. This is not a big deal either way, but it should technically make t2 bpos fractionally more profitable.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2010.05.21 11:02:00 - [6] lol wtf? Ammo producers... Funny to now need like 10,000 units of RAMs to produce some 10,000 units of missiles when in the end only like 10 RAMs will be used up fully. Secure 3rd party service \| my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

gatwtal 0mega Enterprises	Posted - 2010.05.21 11:37:00 - [7] T2 ammo shouldn't be a big problem because you produce 5000 missiles for each run, so you only need a few RAMs per job. It's a bigger problem with small drones where you can produce up to 1300 a week and a much bigger problem for mining crystals - 2 minutes or so buildtime for veldspar mining crystals :)

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2010.05.21 11:55:00 - [8] Originally by: gatwtal T2 ammo shouldn't be a big problem because you produce 5000 missiles for each run, so you only need a few RAMs per job. It's a bigger problem with small drones where you can produce up to 1300 a week and a much bigger problem for mining crystals - 2 minutes or so buildtime for veldspar mining crystals :) Yeah but if I understood it correctly, to produce them 5000 missiles, you WILL now need to have 5000 RAM's in your hangar to even start the job, even if when "accepted" only 2 of those RAMs are actually used up. But yeah running a 30 day Veldspar session build would probably require like 100k RAMs (and ending up actually using like 100?) Secure 3rd party service \| my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

gatwtal 0mega Enterprises	Posted - 2010.05.21 12:03:00 - [9] Originally by: Chribba Originally by: gatwtal T2 ammo shouldn't be a big problem because you produce 5000 missiles for each run, so you only need a few RAMs per job. It's a bigger problem with small drones where you can produce up to 1300 a week and a much bigger problem for mining crystals - 2 minutes or so buildtime for veldspar mining crystals :) Yeah but if I understood it correctly, to produce them 5000 missiles, you WILL now need to have 5000 RAM's in your hangar to even start the job, even if when "accepted" only 2 of those RAMs are actually used up. But yeah running a 30 day Veldspar session build would probably require like 100k RAMs (and ending up actually using like 100?) As I understand it you need one RAM per Run. Usually one run produces one item/ship. Ammo is the exception to that, where one run produces 5000 missiles, hybrid charges or projectiles (thats only for t2 ammo). But its still going to cause quite a hassle for a lot of the small stuff.
dischordia Gallente wiggle Tech. MPA	Posted - 2010.05.21 14:04:00 - [10] Forgive me if im wrong but each ram that is used takes x dmg per job, and is occupied while said job is being run so its not a nerf its just doing what it says on the tin.

Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.05.21 14:36:00 - [11] Confirming tech 2 bpo haterz are all throwing a party to celebrate atleast something is happening to all of our evil prints.
dischordia Gallente wiggle Tech. MPA	Posted - 2010.05.21 16:06:00 - [12] Originally by: Jovialmadness Confirming tech 2 bpo haterz are all throwing a party to celebrate atleast something is happening to all of our evil prints. i for one dont hate people who have t2 bpo's at all ... they were lucky and all just im happy that the usage is right now
Abrazzar	Posted - 2010.05.21 16:20:00 - [13] This not only affects T2 BPO holders but all T2 manufacturers. It basically means that you need an additional amount of RAMs around that won't get used up but end up damaged. So you can either reprocess them or repair them but you first have to buy that required surplus. This looks more like a annoyance than a real bugfix. --------
dischordia Gallente wiggle Tech. MPA	Posted - 2010.05.21 20:01:00 - [14] Originally by: Abrazzar This not only affects T2 BPO holders but all T2 manufacturers. It basically means that you need an additional amount of RAMs around that won't get used up but end up damaged. So you can either reprocess them or repair them but you first have to buy that required surplus. This looks more like a annoyance than a real bugfix. Its making it WORK HOW IT SHOULD!!!!
Charles Park	Posted - 2010.05.21 20:24:00 - [15] No, I don't know how it 'should' work but its working exactly the same as the old way except now it requires you to have a bunch of RAM that won't be used OR damaged. Let me explain (and this is test server verified) in my example of building 10 warp disruptor II's the game now requires you to have 10 seperate electronics rams on hand-doesn't matter if they are undamaged and stacked/unstacked/whatever, you just need 10. When you build your 10 run BPC though the game behaves exactly as it used to, that is it will use up one ram at a time until it is completely gone. So, even though you started with 10 fresh RAMs after the build you will still have 7 fresh RAMs and one half used instead of 10 RAMs each with 25% damage. Going back to the 1,000 light drones example after putting in your job the game will completely use up (without you being able to repair) 50 of your RAMs and leave you with 950. So basically this is a completely pointless change-people will have to make a one time investment in a set number of RAMs to have in their hangar that will never be damaged and just keep building/buying the ones that will get used up as always.
Johraiken Fenris Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2010.05.21 23:05:00 - [16] Originally by: Abrazzar This looks more like a annoyance than a real bugfix.
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.05.21 23:43:00 - [17] Originally by: Johraiken Fenris Originally by: Abrazzar This looks more like a annoyance than a real bugfix. Agreed. Its just an annoyance. Now all T2 manufacturers will have a pile of RAMs just sitting around that never get used. Maybe that is HOW IT SHOULD WORK, but in the end its just stupid.
dischordia Gallente wiggle Tech. MPA	Posted - 2010.05.22 03:59:00 - [18] Originally by: Nahkep Narmelion Originally by: Johraiken Fenris Originally by: Abrazzar This looks more like a annoyance than a real bugfix. Agreed. Its just an annoyance. Now all T2 manufacturers will have a pile of RAMs just sitting around that never get used. Maybe that is HOW IT SHOULD WORK, but in the end its just stupid. /me facepalms. if you dont like it dont do it is my view. if i was making things and it said i would need 40 of the components t make it i would get 40
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.05.22 06:21:00 - [19] No duh, but currently you often don't need 40 because each one you make only damages the RAM 10%--i.e. i only need 4.
Mal Lokrano Gallente Colorado Pod Testing Services	Posted - 2010.05.22 06:23:00 - [20] This was never really a bug. RAMs would be used in multiple runs in a single string and so you actually needed less. A RAM that recieved 10% damage per run could do a 10 run job on its own. Sounds like CCP just fixing things that arn't broken to me. ____________________________________________ When going to a party with wine, women, and song. Always ascertain the vintage of the first two.

McLovin Mcgee Minmatar	Posted - 2010.05.22 06:35:00 - [21] If a RAM is required for every run then I think all runs should be done at the same time in a single slot. The system makes sens now as all runs are done sequentially and not at the same time allowing several runs to be done by a single RAM. However, if all runs require their own ram then logically they should all complete at the same time in the same slot. Otherwise it would not make much sense as it wouldn't be mass production.
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.05.22 06:42:00 - [22] Originally by: McLovin Mcgee If a RAM is required for every run then I think all runs should be done at the same time in a single slot. The system makes sens now as all runs are done sequentially and not at the same time allowing several runs to be done by a single RAM. However, if all runs require their own ram then logically they should all complete at the same time in the same slot. Otherwise it would not make much sense as it wouldn't be mass production. WTF, you're kidding. Hmm, there is some perverse logic there. Right now since players install a 10 run BPC in a single slot and then get 10 items it implies sequential building and hence sequential use of RAMs which fits with using say 1 RAM that is damaged 10%. But if we need 10 RAMs it implies all of the 10 modules are being built simultaneously and we should use up 10 manufacturing slots for each BPC (more if you are using a BPO). Shorter build times tho'.
gatwtal 0mega Enterprises	Posted - 2010.05.22 07:42:00 - [23] Originally by: Charles Park No, I don't know how it 'should' work but its working exactly the same as the old way except now it requires you to have a bunch of RAM that won't be used OR damaged. Let me explain (and this is test server verified) in my example of building 10 warp disruptor II's the game now requires you to have 10 seperate electronics rams on hand-doesn't matter if they are undamaged and stacked/unstacked/whatever, you just need 10. When you build your 10 run BPC though the game behaves exactly as it used to, that is it will use up one ram at a time until it is completely gone. So, even though you started with 10 fresh RAMs after the build you will still have 7 fresh RAMs and one half used instead of 10 RAMs each with 25% damage. Going back to the 1,000 light drones example after putting in your job the game will completely use up (without you being able to repair) 50 of your RAMs and leave you with 950. So basically this is a completely pointless change-people will have to make a one time investment in a set number of RAMs to have in their hangar that will never be damaged and just keep building/buying the ones that will get used up as always. Well, I can happily live with that. My fear was that you start a 1000 run job and after that you find 1000 damaged RAMs in your Hangar.
Nica Guye	Posted - 2010.05.22 09:29:00 - [24] This is going to just be annoying. Over time it won't mean you use any more RAM's but you are going to have lots of damaged RAM's lying around and then you will find that you think you have enough but really you wont and you will have to go back and buy/build some more and hold up your production. I can see why they are doing it but I current way better.
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.05.22 19:52:00 - [25] Edited by: Nahkep Narmelion on 22/05/2010 19:55:16 Edited by: Nahkep Narmelion on 22/05/2010 19:52:55 Originally by: gatwtal Well, I can happily live with that. My fear was that you start a 1000 run job and after that you find 1000 damaged RAMs in your Hangar. I would love that. Think about it, you run a job where it damages all the RAMs x%. When the job is done you repair them all for a fraction of the cost of producing one. As an inventor I'd have at most 100 RAMs and I'd never build another one for that specific type of good. Quote: This is going to just be annoying. Over time it won't mean you use any more RAM's but you are going to have lots of damaged RAM's lying around and then you will find that you think you have enough but really you wont and you will have to go back and buy/build some more and hold up your production. I can see why they are doing it but I current way better. pro tip: right click on a damaged RAM, select repair item, pay the bill (for 50% damage the cost is like 1,850 isk which implies a price of 3,700/RAM when you do it twice) use the same RAM again. Cost of making a brand new RAM about 15,000 isk. If they do change it so that all of the RAMs are damaged the price of RAMs will drop.
Qoi New Eden Warriors	Posted - 2010.05.22 21:47:00 - [26] I always repair the damaged R.A.M.s, hopefully we get all of them damaged in the future! It would just make sense, and i would never have to produce them again! horray So far it's a pointless waste of development time tho
wr3cks Combat Support Associates	Posted - 2010.05.22 22:41:00 - [27] I believe actually this describes the current behavior on the live server. I had 2 rams and was trying to build a 10 run of some guns that require 20% of a ram per run, and it said, not enough rams, need 10. I think by adding it to the patch notes, they're taking some idiotic UI behavior and calling it "not a bug"
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.05.22 23:09:00 - [28] You should have just clicked okay. I get the red indicating i don't have enough rams, but i know that the 2 or 3 there will only take partial damage such that 2 or 3 is enough, and it still installs the job.
CRNA	Posted - 2010.05.23 00:56:00 - [29] I think if someone can put together the 50B isk to obtain the T2 BPO, I imagine they can sort out some extra RAMs.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2010.05.23 03:42:00 - [30] Speculating here, but I imagine this change will prevent 30 days worth of some items being installed in some POS factories which are too small to now hold 30 days worth.

Qoi New Eden Warriors	Posted - 2010.05.23 08:57:00 - [31] Originally by: Lord Fitz Speculating here, but I imagine this change will prevent 30 days worth of some items being installed in some POS factories which are too small to now hold 30 days worth. Very interesting, for example with Hobgoblin II you can now only produce 3636 runs which comes down to 3 weeks of manufacturing at PE 5, where before you could produce 4819 in just about 4 weeks. Fortunately i invent them so i don't have this kind of problems
Malakai Draevyn Caldari Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.	Posted - 2010.05.24 16:07:00 - [32] Look, boys and girls. You lot who own the T2 BPOs make an absolute fortune, if not by selling copies, or by direct manufacturing. So what if you have to have 10 RAM to do 10 runs on said bpo/bpc ? It's a miniscule expense compared to what you're actually going to make off it. What's the saying in the emoragequit threads ? Less QQ - More PewPew. Carry on. ..:: MD ::..
Barbicane TGUN Industries	Posted - 2010.05.24 16:39:00 - [33] Originally by: Malakai Draevyn So what if you have to have 10 RAM to do 10 runs on said bpo/bpc ? It's a miniscule expense compared to what you're actually going to make off it. Yes, that's sort of what everyone else is saying, if you had only bothered to read the thread before posting. It's just that no one understands the rationale behind the change.
Alerada	Posted - 2010.05.24 19:41:00 - [34] Originally by: Malakai Draevyn Look, boys and girls. You lot who own the T2 BPOs make an absolute fortune, if not by selling copies, or by direct manufacturing. So what if you have to have 10 RAM to do 10 runs on said bpo/bpc ? It's a miniscule expense compared to what you're actually going to make off it. What's the saying in the emoragequit threads ? Less QQ - More PewPew. Carry on. Honestly doubt it could be put better, deal with it T2 BPOers. Most of the complaints just seem like /whine.
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.05.24 20:37:00 - [35] Originally by: Malakai Draevyn Look, boys and girls. You lot who own the T2 BPOs make an absolute fortune, if not by selling copies, or by direct manufacturing. So what if you have to have 10 RAM to do 10 runs on said bpo/bpc ? It's a miniscule expense compared to what you're actually going to make off it. What's the saying in the emoragequit threads ? Less QQ - More PewPew. Carry on. Try reading the thread first, the overall consensus is, dumb and annoying, no emo-rage-quiting QQ.
dankness420	Posted - 2010.05.24 22:48:00 - [36] So considering the RAM needed for invention and just building from a t2 bpo is the same, how does this nerf t2 bpos again???
Charles Park	Posted - 2010.05.24 22:53:00 - [37] Because invented BPC's typically have 10 runs so you only need 10 extra RAMs on hand whereas BPO holders can build however many runs they want at once, for light drones they might build 1,000 at a time meaning they would need 1,000 RAMs on hand (even though only 50 of them would be used).
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.05.24 23:19:00 - [38] Originally by: dankness420 So considering the RAM needed for invention and just building from a t2 bpo is the same, how does this nerf t2 bpos again??? It is a question of scale really. The inventor will at most need 100 RAMs (assuming he can build using 10 slots x 10 modules/BPC), or if you have more than one invention/manufacturing character you could also make it 10nm where n is the number of characters, and m is the number of manufacturing slots you can use. Since a BPO owner can produce more than 10 for him it is whatever the maximum number of units he can produce is. If the BPO owner can make 1,000 units then he'll need 1,000 RAMs. In the end it isn't that big a deal really. You'll just have to have a few more RAMs lying around, and since people who own BPOs are also likely to have quite a bit of isk, relatively speaking it will still be an annoyance for them too. No real nerf here.
Hulemand Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.05.26 09:40:00 - [39] Lol, i hope this is not true. I sometimes build 200.000 tech II missiles in one go.
Charles Park	Posted - 2010.05.26 10:49:00 - [40] You are in for some fun fun times after the patch.

Barbicane TGUN Industries	Posted - 2010.05.26 14:20:00 - [41] Originally by: Hulemand Lol, i hope this is not true. I sometimes build 200.000 tech II missiles in one go. Don't worry. RAMs are calculated per batch, and since T2 missiles are produced in batches of 5000, you will just need a stack of 40 RAMs.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2010.05.27 13:56:00 - [42] Originally by: Malakai Draevyn So what if you have to have 10 RAM to do 10 runs on said bpo/bpc ? It's a miniscule expense compared to what you're actually going to make off it. I'm not sure you get it. a) There's no profit in copying T2 BPOs, you will effectively make a loss if you do so as they take twice as long to make a 1 run copy as to build 1 run. b) There's no additional cost involved here, the amount consumed is still the same. I don't think anyone really cares about having more RAMs on hand, that isn't particularly difficult and I would be surprised if any BPO owners didn't already. After the first batch it makes no difference, since the same number of them vanish as before, the same amount will need to be built as before. The ONLY real effect this has is for small / fast items like mining crystals / drones etc which may not fit 30 days worth into a POS array anymore. And by and large these BPOs make hardly any profit, far less than invention using the same slot. For ship builders (which are the most profitable BPOs) it wouldn't make any difference in terms of space used, comparatively. So no, there's no nerf to the BPOs, but possibly a nerf to and additional weekend per month for some of the owners.
Toldain	Posted - 2010.05.27 15:13:00 - [43] While it's still less than ideal, it seems that the new way fits the model a little better. The RAM modules aren't components, they are advanced robotics that are needed in the line to make your stuff. So you need one per run, because, in concept, the runs are simultaneous. Of course, they aren't, or else 10 runs wouldn't take 10 times as long, but never mind. You could apply damage evenly to all of them, but that would likely result in them never getting used up. Which is kind of a problem, the bottom drops out of the RAM market. And lets face it, stuff gets used up after a while, there's only so much wear and tear that it will take. You might use a stochastic model for this, rolling dice to determine damage to each RAM. However, there is absolutely no randomness in any other part of manufacturing (invention, yes, manufacturing, no), so it would feel pretty weird and I think we players would be more unhappy. So they are content to blow up five percent of your RAMS each job.
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.05.27 17:46:00 - [44] Originally by: Toldain While it's still less than ideal, it seems that the new way fits the model a little better. Not really, the production is implicitly sequential. You use one slot to produce X items. You still only damage/use the same number of RAMs as before vs. damaging all 10. Its a dopey fix in the end in that all serious manufacturers of T2 items will just make sure they have that buffer of RAMs. Why they did, I don't have a clue, somebody was bored at CCP and was trying to impress the boss? v0v
Builder AlphaOne	Posted - 2010.05.27 19:22:00 - [45] as i understand it, you've mostly got it wrong. while you'll NEED one RAM per run to start the job, it will still use up the same number as it always did. Example: 10 runs at 25% damage per run -- you'll NEED 10 to start the job and 2.5 will be used up -- thus, at the end of the job, you'll get 7 undamaged ones back, plus one that has 50% damage. So, you buy [or build] 2 more RAM and repair the damaged one, and you're ready to go again. Net consumed cost has not changed, just the initial number you have to have on hand. [your invested capital may have gone up -- which is no big deal.]
Red lensman Gallente BlackSky inc.	Posted - 2010.05.28 11:49:00 - [46] The pain will be light drone producton as RAM's are 16m3 per so batches of 2-6000 will take up 32-96k of the 100k of the drone assembly array, which with the making of the tech 1 drones as well at the same time vertually impossible.
Melissa Coldstorm	Posted - 2010.05.29 15:15:00 - [47] Originally by: Builder AlphaOne Net consumed cost has not changed, just the initial number you have to have on hand. [your invested capital may have gone up -- which is no big deal.] If you build in a POS, that "invested capital" includes space, of which you only have 100k it's a big fat slap in the face of people with T2 drone and ammo BPO's, so either this gets reversed, or the hangar space in assembly arrays goes up with 50% or 100%.
Charles Park	Posted - 2010.05.29 15:22:00 - [48] Or you start jobs twice a month instead of once a month and work just a little bit harder to keep your money printing maching going? I mean it certainly must be nice to stop by your POS once a month to fuel it/pick up drones/put in a new job but surely having to do it twice a month wouldn't be the end of the world?
Franny Band of Builders Inc. Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.05.29 18:33:00 - [49] Edited by: Franny on 29/05/2010 18:34:47 Originally by: Lord Fitz Speculating here, but I imagine this change will prevent 30 days worth of some items being installed in some POS factories which are too small to now hold 30 days worth. yep, kept me from installing 30d(plus the added invention ones) worth of Ogre 2s... oh well, 15D runs work just as well and with luck it will **** off some of the inventors and my profit will go up waves evil T2 BPO around from the safety of a STATION Originally by: Charles Park Or you start jobs twice a month instead of once a month and work just a little bit harder to keep your money printing maching going? I mean it certainly must be nice to stop by your POS once a month to fuel it/pick up drones/put in a new job but surely having to do it twice a month wouldn't be the end of the world? nope, I was there all the time anyway, well my alt was, with invention sucking up more time than my BPO(and more profit)
A1ien	Posted - 2010.05.30 21:26:00 - [50] Edited by: A1ien on 30/05/2010 21:29:55 I hope this is just an oversight by CCP. I remember when they introduced the UI bug and was kind of hoping they would be fixed but at least it let the job run. Now they expect me to have 1000 R.A.M.s to start a job that will only use 50. I just cannot see the logic in CCP implementing this. I have to assume the programming team who "fixed" this miss read the original bug reports, and thought being able to accept the job with enough R.A.M's to complete production was the problem and not the UI reporting the incorrect amount required in the 1st place.

Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles	Posted - 2010.05.30 21:39:00 - [51] Originally by: Nahkep Narmelion Well, I can happily live with that. My fear was that you start a 1000 run job and after that you find 1000 damaged RAMs in your Hangar. That's never going to happen. There's a hard cap of 1000 items per hangar and it's there for a good reason. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression
Not Found	Posted - 2010.05.31 12:17:00 - [52] Something needs to be done to address the issues this causes for prints like light drones.
Not Found	Posted - 2010.06.15 13:55:00 - [53] Again, something needs to be done to address the unfair issues this causes for drone prints. If every other print in the game is able to queue for 30 days worth of production, why can't drone prints? I can't imagine this is intentional. The most simple fix (if this new requirement for RAM is not going to change) would be to simply increase the storage bay capacity of drone assembly arrays. Although even at that, I find it pretty dumb that I need 5k RAM to start the job when it will only actually use 250 of them...
TLWE Polish Lords' Confederacy	Posted - 2010.06.15 14:20:00 - [54] CCP should erase with vengeance all these tech2 bpos. Everyone for every single failed invention make a comment under my post "AYE! DELETE TECH2 BPOS! AGREE!" now please. :) -- B=g, Honor, Nar=d. Semper Fidelis. Nec Hercules Contra Plures.


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