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How To Improve The Alliance Tourney

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ThrashPower Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.06.09 14:13:00 - [61] Originally by: Kil2 Edited by: Kil2 on 08/06/2010 23:38:02 E-war displays are right on the line. That information is all available to all player participants IF the gang is communicating well and the FCs are good. For us as viewers it would be amazing to see little jam/damp/TD icons next to the ships they are being used against, but, what if a team is communicating badly and they accidentally have put ALL of their matar jammers on the same target, or they have somehow forgotten to damp a critical ship, now our commentary and the stream comes into play for the teams strategically. this is everything thats wrong with this game, you should be playing versus other players, not be playing versus an ancient user interface which dosn't even fit into the fluff of the game. as long as players are limited by a terrible ui, the level of play will remain very low in eve compared to other pvp mmos. regardless kil2 brings up good points, the commentators have to be "bad", otherwise they can be used as intel for the teams fighting. the solution to this would be to delay the stream even further though, its already delayed by a minute or two afaik.
DasPocketTB	Posted - 2010.06.09 14:32:00 - [62] Originally by: ThrashPower regardless kil2 brings up good points, the commentators have to be "bad", otherwise they can be used as intel for the teams fighting. the solution to this would be to delay the stream even further though, its already delayed by a minute or two afaik. This is by far the worst justification for having poor commentary I've ever heard. If it becomes an issue, put more tape-delay on the stream or prerecord everything, don't put bad commentators on just because somebody might be listening and feeding info to the competing teams, that's utterly absurd.
Senator Zedicus	Posted - 2010.06.09 15:04:00 - [63] You can't pay Commentators. Period. Eve content has been player driven from the start, and the tournaments are no exception. CCP provides the venue and the schwag, a step above what most companies will provide. Players want the opportunity to announce, so give them the opportunity. Don't complain about it when they fumble a ship type or a name. No one is perfect. I think these commentators are brave as hell for going out there and putting there ass on the line. Without them we wouldn't have anything to complain about.
Shasz Detox. Black Legion.	Posted - 2010.06.09 15:54:00 - [64] Originally by: DasPocketTB Originally by: ThrashPower regardless kil2 brings up good points, the commentators have to be "bad", otherwise they can be used as intel for the teams fighting. the solution to this would be to delay the stream even further though, its already delayed by a minute or two afaik. This is by far the worst justification for having poor commentary I've ever heard. If it becomes an issue, put more tape-delay on the stream or prerecord everything, don't put bad commentators on just because somebody might be listening and feeding info to the competing teams, that's utterly absurd. Agreed - and good post up above. Delay it more if need be, but please please please give the commentators and/or viewers MOAR intel on what is happening on the field. Auto racing coverage is a good comparison for the Alliance Tourneys. Maybe take some cues from them... - There's potential action all over the place at once with potential snooze time while every plays follow the leader for several laps, or a tries to burn down a damnation's armor buffer. This is overcome with LOTS of eyes on the field watching for interesting action rather than just two people having to do their own camera work and commentary at once. - The announcers and viewers have better situational information than the actual drivers do, and crew chiefs are able to take advantage of that somewhat with video feeds in their pit areas. It doesn't hurt the race any, and with a slight delay, won't affect the Eve tournaments either. - Similarly, teams do not know what kind of setup, gearing, engine, guns, fuel consumption, or tanking ability each car/ship has, and some of this mystery is good for the analyst to speculate on and unravel for the viewers as the event progresses. ___________________________________
Orange Faeces The Squirt Locker	Posted - 2010.06.09 16:08:00 - [65] Wow! I have to admit that after someone mentioned TotalBiscuit I looked up his commentaries on YouTube and checked them out. I am used to HD/Husky, but you bring another fun aspect to the commentary that they don't have. I appreciate your insights in e-sports commentary field in this thread. For a play-by-play commentator to be able to tell us what is going on, they have to be able to see it. Without some kind of markers for what E-War and remote-repair is active, it will be somewhat impossible for them to do that. I can recall several times in this tournament where the commentator would say "is that dampening coming from the whatever?" So, a new interface is clearly needed. The issue of introducing delay into the broadcast should not be an issue. Certainly, consider the effect of not delaying match broadcasts for StarCraft: "I don't know if WhiteRA sees the gold expansion, Husky! Oh no!" Every E-sport out there has to take measures so that broadcasting the match does not interfere with the game itself. Personally, I would like to have the match delayed by the amount of time it takes to play, so 15min. That way, when you are done the game, you can watch and see why it turned out the way it did. Hopefully CCP will make some changes in this direction. oF ---
Kil2 Club Bear HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.06.09 19:16:00 - [66] I cant believe totalbiscuit is in the thread! i watch you all the time man, great stuff. Somehow what i said earlier wound up translating to commentators needing to be bad in EVE. That isnt at all what i was trying to say. We should be good, i just think the route to improvement has to be monitored and certain outcomes have to be avoided. That should never prevent us from improving. A lot of the time the things you guys want improved from an interface level can be improved from a knowledge level. Most of the time if i say something like "I think thats TD's or damps or something coming from X ship", I should be able to figure it out because im an "expert" based on the rest of the ship's behavior. I felt a bit off in this regard last weekend and usually the reason to do this kind of analysis is why i feel like i belong on the commentary team. TB had so much good stuff to say there. Thanks for contributing =D
Massive Dragon HAIL DRAGONS	Posted - 2010.06.09 19:56:00 - [67] Edited by: Massive Dragon on 09/06/2010 19:56:52 back in the day i could tell you all the turrets in the game by looking at them, i knew all the effects of ewar and sounds of the different guns. thanks to ccps continued updates where every year they change them... i am now at a stage where i ignore sound completely and pretty much stick to the models of the guns. add the fact that ccp has seemingly started to care more about the "look" of the game than giving the players the ability to really see ewar on screen, its much harder to spot those these days than back in the old days when you had giant blue circles flying around the ships you where ewaring. and very obvious different effects for things like webs disrptors damps and tps, wheras now everything is so blurred in space in an attempt to look like the latest realistic james bond movie! another problem is that certain effects completely overlap other effects making it hard to tell if a ship that is neuting is also scramming. (at least if you are trying to watch a field anyway rather than yourself being that guy) overall a lot has changed since the days of stavros and stoffer which might be making things a bit harder on the commentators(and this is my white knighting done) but this should not be stopping commentators from giving opinions on what the players should be doing and why. which i think thus far this tournament has lacked. even eddz in tournaments past has managed to urge ships to pull in close to lone targets and orbit at 500! begging the pilot to do as he commanded! i think people want to hear commentators take a stab at teams who are doing poorly and stop beating around the bush when they see bad setups. the uk vs oi should have really raised eyebrows... muv local lit up when we all saw how many ships where being fielded. instead all we heard was that the loadout did not have the full 10 ships fielded... obviously commentators will have opinions on if this is going to really hinder chances or not and if it was a bad decision or not, but they arnt really giving them! ive already said about a billion times that opinionated people make the most interesting commentators... whether they are completely wrong about what they are saying or not! and i dont think the job of a commentator is to be right all the time... but to make the viewing more interesting. overall i wont say the commentary has been completely uninteresting... but i prefer muv local atm ;p (white knight reactivated) arguing about commentators being good/bad (which i admit i have been guilty of at times) at this game is largely pointless because the vast majority of people playing this game (and indeed the vast majority of people complaining) dont know better themselves thus dont need the commentary to be at the highest possible threshold, in fact i would say they complain after someone else tells them there was a mistake because they want to look good or at least better than they actually are not because they understand anything more than the commentators do. people do however deserve to be entertained! "OH MY GOD NOOOOOOO DONT SHOOT THE SLIEPNIR WHAT ARE YOU DOING!!! THERES A SCIMI RIGHT ON TOP OF YOU!" - and whether they get massacred if they do what you are saying they should do or stomp the other team, people will appreciate the enthusiasm. also a few jokes here and there would be pro ;p edit: holy wall of text... i clearly dont want to do my assignment today =(
Stovo kor Firebird Squadron	Posted - 2010.06.10 08:22:00 - [68] Commentators need to latch on to critical points in the match & milk that moment. Enthusiasm and hyping up the moment would possibly elevate the commentary if done right. This AT many a times that opportunity has been missed. I am also not sure why CCP can't provide an additional feed to commentators ( 1 feed similar to spectators ) Maybe 1 commentator in arena with locks and 1 commentator off-arena with the spectator screen As it stand both commentators are missing key points in the matches. By providing the information too late they can't leverage on something that happened a few seconds ago for spectators ________________________________________________ Check us out : Sleeper Pimps ________________________________________________
TeaDaze	Posted - 2010.06.10 14:57:00 - [69] Originally by: Stovo kor I am also not sure why CCP can't provide an additional feed to commentators ( 1 feed similar to spectators ) Maybe 1 commentator in arena with locks and 1 commentator off-arena with the spectator screen For the finals weekend of AT7 the lead commentator had control of a camera ship on grid with the fight and the second commentator had a screen showing the output being fed to the live stream (before the compression stage etc). Setting up this kind of view during the home commentary weekend is tricky due to the time delays with voice coms, stream compression and the like which would put commentary from the live stream several seconds behind the action. The tools we had for AT7 were pretty good, though we had issues with not being able to see drones for instance. I assume a new version is in use this time, though apparently it is missing ship names. At the end of the day the commentators are not professionals and I'm sure they are all doing their best. For the new commentators it is a bit harsh to write them off after just one weekend, I'm sure they will improve with practice and (constructive) feedback. TeaDaze.net Blog \| CSM Database
Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2010.06.10 16:27:00 - [70] Originally by: TeaDaze For the new commentators it is a bit harsh to write them off after just one weekend, I'm sure they will improve with practice and (constructive) feedback. The commentary always gets better as the tournament goes on. The first day is always the worst - I'd imagine that they're nervous and still getting used to the setup. Then they get flamed on the forums and, being the good Eve players that they are, they probably figure, "Well, screw those guys, I'm going to say whatever the hell I want!" They HTFU and it's smooth sailing from then on out.
Master Technique Club Bear HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.06.10 19:16:00 - [71] The commentator UI is obviously something that can be and should be improved. The ship names thing is kind of a bummer, because even though the viewers can see the stream now, when the commentator says cyclone instead of sleipnir, you second guess your own memory of what ship just blew up. For some reason I don't see people mentioning this year being the first time viewers get to actually view something for the first two weekends. As a result of this development, I think the focus of the commentary could be shifted quite a lot. We don't need to hear "this armageddon is now at um, uh, err, oh, about 40% armor." Mention it is steadily losing armor or whatever, then move on. We also no longer need death callouts in real time. Don't hang on a sentence to say "and he's down" or "and poof". We saw it too. Work the fact into a more informative sentence, like "and as you see that geddon go down, you have to wonder if this team is still going to have the DPS to break the other teams marauder" or whatever. Basically, I think the commentary needs to be more analytical and thought provoking and less real time play by play. If you listen to basketball or soccer on the radio, it is super fast play by play and nothing but, because they pass and shoot a lot. If you watch it on TV, its a lot of strategic commentary and relevant stats. Overall, I still have the sound on. If the commentary is good, its good. If its bad, thats its own kind of entertainment. ________________ Master Technique Latest Video:H:TC
Strider Hiryu Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.06.11 08:20:00 - [72] I has a friend with a damnation that tanked a pos for 10 mins... That is the dumbest comment ever. That aside. Positive input to make the AT more fun. More informative commentary from the commentators, less diagnosis. Save the diagnosis for inbetween where commentators can deconstructed some highlights from the match (like a football halftime show where they disect plays, circle key players, point out holes in the defence) With good camera angles on what is being talked about. It was sorta empty that the match finished and it went to a blank screen for 10 mins. This being said, im probs keen for the finals where this is done. I like beer and cheese...
DasPocketTB	Posted - 2010.06.11 11:34:00 - [73] Originally by: Senator Zedicus You can't pay Commentators. Period. Eve content has been player driven from the start, and the tournaments are no exception. CCP provides the venue and the schwag, a step above what most companies will provide. Players want the opportunity to announce, so give them the opportunity. Don't complain about it when they fumble a ship type or a name. No one is perfect. I think these commentators are brave as hell for going out there and putting there ass on the line. Without them we wouldn't have anything to complain about. No offence to the commentators in question, but merely wanting to do it does not mean you should. I get people asking to co-commentate with me everyday, should I let them just because they're enthusiastic about wanting to do it? No, because you see, the feelings of a couple of wannabe commentators do not over-ride the entertainment of 10k+ spectators. If they want to do commentary, let them do it in their own time, don't put them on air in front of a 5 figure live audience and say 'oh it's ok, they're trying'. It's not ok, EvE could use some genuine regular commentators with the knowledge and experience necessary to broadcast an enjoyable and accurate presentation. Amateur Hour in Space this isn't.
Car Wars Pigs In Space United Proletariat	Posted - 2010.06.11 11:42:00 - [74] nice idea for a one time alliance tournament: "Blobwarfare edition" 200 vs 200 of each alliance. More realistic in terms of eve. Nice lag test
Numon	Posted - 2010.06.11 13:54:00 - [75] Originally by: Master Technique The commentator UI is obviously something that can be and should be improved. The ship names thing is kind of a bummer, because even though the viewers can see the stream now, when the commentator says cyclone instead of sleipnir, you second guess your own memory of what ship just blew up. For some reason I don't see people mentioning this year being the first time viewers get to actually view something for the first two weekends. As a result of this development, I think the focus of the commentary could be shifted quite a lot. We don't need to hear "this armageddon is now at um, uh, err, oh, about 40% armor." Mention it is steadily losing armor or whatever, then move on. We also no longer need death callouts in real time. Don't hang on a sentence to say "and he's down" or "and poof". We saw it too. Work the fact into a more informative sentence, like "and as you see that geddon go down, you have to wonder if this team is still going to have the DPS to break the other teams marauder" or whatever. Basically, I think the commentary needs to be more analytical and thought provoking and less real time play by play. If you listen to basketball or soccer on the radio, it is super fast play by play and nothing but, because they pass and shoot a lot. If you watch it on TV, its a lot of strategic commentary and relevant stats. Overall, I still have the sound on. If the commentary is good, its good. If its bad, thats its own kind of entertainment. It would be really cool if the AT commentators cited player stats and history the same way that television sports commentators do. Some well known and 'famous' Eve personalities are participating in this tournament, there should always be lots to talk about during each match.
Yura Ghost	Posted - 2010.06.14 09:18:00 - [76] They should record the match in 3D. Then get professional Camera People to create the shots. Then get an Editor to put them together. Then Have the commentators do their homework and then fill in with voice commentary. The commentators should have access to the 3D version before they comment on the match that way they are prepared.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.06.14 09:35:00 - [77] Originally by: Yura Ghost They should record the match in 3D. Then get professional Camera People to create the shots. Then get an Editor to put them together. Then Have the commentators do their homework and then fill in with voice commentary. The commentators should have access to the 3D version before they comment on the match that way they are prepared. I would rather have live stream and live comments than that.
anduz	Posted - 2010.06.14 10:59:00 - [78] I don't think the commentators need to have fitting information or the likes to do a good job. At least I think darius, verone and kil2 have done very well so far and they've done it without inside knowledge. Only things that've annoyed me so far is when the commentators haven't noticed things blowing up or when they mistake the ships. But over all I think it's been alright, if they really wanted to improve though, they'd just need to make sure there was always one of the good commentators on every match.
TeaDaze	Posted - 2010.06.14 13:18:00 - [79] Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Yura Ghost They should record the match in 3D. Then get professional Camera People to create the shots. Then get an Editor to put them together. Then Have the commentators do their homework and then fill in with voice commentary. The commentators should have access to the 3D version before they comment on the match that way they are prepared. I would rather have live stream and live comments than that. I agree. Commentating after the fact would somewhat diminish the whole thing. Also it is more difficult once the match is over unless CCP implement the battle recorder (raised by CSM4 ) because you'd only have the camera views and be unable to look at other things happening on the field. So far the camera work has been pretty good though. TeaDaze.net Blog \| CSM Database
Orange Faeces The Squirt Locker	Posted - 2010.06.14 14:56:00 - [80] Originally by: TeaDaze I agree. Commentating after the fact would somewhat diminish the whole thing. Also it is more difficult once the match is over unless CCP implement the battle recorder (raised by CSM4 ) because you'd only have the camera views and be unable to look at other things happening on the field. So far the camera work has been pretty good though. Okay, so lets review: You don't like the idea of delaying the match, but you yourself contributed to the idea of demo recording in EVE? Sounds like CSM needs to filter for troll-blood. oF ---
TeaDaze	Posted - 2010.06.14 17:43:00 - [81] Originally by: Orange Faeces Okay, so lets review: You don't like the idea of delaying the match, but you yourself contributed to the idea of demo recording in EVE? Sounds like CSM needs to filter for troll-blood. Except that my two statements are not mutually binding. Demo recorder would be awesome for people wanting to make movies of fleet fights etc where they would be able to have effects etc turned down (as one does in a fleet fight) but afterwards render a very high quality version where it doesn't matter how long each frame takes. It would also allow using different camera angles etc. Now my opinion about delayed or after the event commentary still stands. The only link is that without some kind of battle recorder replay the commentators would be working from the fixed camera angles in the video stream and they wouldn't be able to give extra details such as the type of drones on the field. Is that so hard to understand? TL:DR Delayed commentary for alliance tourney: bad Battle recorder for movie making: good TeaDaze.net Blog \| CSM Database
Anonymous Player	Posted - 2010.06.15 00:35:00 - [82] Originally by: Ban Doga Edited by: Ban Doga on 07/06/2010 06:39:37 Originally by: EvilCheez The video should be edited and should include audio from the TS of the respective teams. Postmortem interviews could be worked in. The play by play guys have a hard time calling it becuase they have very little info about what is going on. Even when they do have all the names correct they are reduce to reporting on the relative shield stregth of ship x - something we can see ourselves. They should also watch the tourney stream themselves. Then they could avoid talking about something that the viewers can identify as wrong immediately. "That's it, game over" - "No, there's still that Ferox" "And the Cyclone going into low shields" - "No, its says Sleipnir on my screen" "And they just lost the Sabre and Logistics ship at the same time" - "Actually they lost that Sabre 30 seconds ago" EDIT Also extra lulz for "Oh, I accidentally moved out of range and cannot see anything right now" They don't have the same view we do. They have a view as if they were in the fight. They have to lock targets and everything, so if they miss a ship, it's not because they don't see it where everyone else does. Give them a break. And since they are paying attention to a lot of stuff, and not just seeing the screen we do, it may take a minute to notice something blowing up, or they may say the T1 name instead of the T2. Big freaking deal. As far as pronunciation goes, just give it a rest. Some people have trouble saying things a certain way. Hell, most of the people ragging on her pronunciation can't even type a coherent sentence. Learn to spell, learn correct grammar, or STFU about how some pronounces a word.
BAteh We're Just Screwing Around	Posted - 2010.06.15 01:58:00 - [83] Originally by: Rhoulaki Make sure the female announcer doesn't speak again. Ever. She has no idea what she's talking about and her voice is terrible. This. Along with Darius. Shoo. And bring back Stavros and Ifni, aka "The Legends That Knew What They Were Saying".
Orange Faeces The Squirt Locker	Posted - 2010.06.15 07:56:00 - [84] Edited by: Orange Faeces on 15/06/2010 07:55:58 Originally by: TeaDaze TL:DR Delayed commentary for alliance tourney: bad Battle recorder for movie making: good If you'd read the posts from experienced commentators earlier in this thread you'd understand why delay is probably the only way to really improve the commentating. The TL;DR for you is simple: EVE combat involves hidden states that no commentator can really see. An interface that shows those states, either to the general audience or just to the commentators, is needed. Unfortunately, that would mean that players could listen to the stream for information about how the match was going, so a delay is needed. So, being entitled to an opinion doesn't mean you make any sense. oF ---
Omu Negru Caldari	Posted - 2010.06.15 12:11:00 - [85] Edited by: Omu Negru on 15/06/2010 12:12:47 Hey you frustrated impotents, the girl is fine! Go and troll somewhere else! .
TeaDaze	Posted - 2010.06.15 13:03:00 - [86] Originally by: Orange Faeces If you'd read the posts from experienced commentators earlier in this thread you'd understand why delay is probably the only way to really improve the commentating. If you'd read the comments I was replying to you would have seen the suggestion from somebody about the match being recorded in "3D" with professional cameramen and directors to setup the shots afterwards. They then suggested giving the commentators the "3D" version of the fight before they did the commentary. Thus in this context the delay would be till well after the match was actually finished. As by that point the commentators would know the result, yes they would likely be able to do a better job of explaining what was going on. But it would also remove the "live" aspect which as I stated would diminish the whole thing. Of course I am a bit biased having been a commentator for AT7 and seeing the reaction around the studio when a match is exciting. Trying to replicate that afterwards wouldn't work. For some reason you felt the need to attack me for supporting a CSM proposal on the battle recorder technology which would actually make recording the 3D fight information possible but ignored the context of the delay being discussed You are suggesting a delay for totally different reasons. Originally by: Orange Faeces EVE combat involves hidden states that no commentator can really see. An interface that shows those states, either to the general audience or just to the commentators, is needed. If such a tool existed then yes, it would require a few minutes stream delay to avoid giving too much Intel to the teams fighting. However this was not what was being talked about originally by me or the post I was replying to. I agree that this type of information would be exceptionally useful and would improve things a great deal TeaDaze.net Blog \| CSM Database
Orange Faeces The Squirt Locker	Posted - 2010.06.21 19:01:00 - [87] Originally by: TeaDaze Originally by: Orange Faeces EVE combat involves hidden states that no commentator can really see. An interface that shows those states, either to the general audience or just to the commentators, is needed. If such a tool existed then yes, it would require a few minutes stream delay to avoid giving too much Intel to the teams fighting. However this was not what was being talked about originally by me or the post I was replying to. I agree that this type of information would be exceptionally useful and would improve things a great deal I'm glad to hear you onboard for suggesting these changes at the next CSM. Thank you for listening, Tea. oF ---

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