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[Issue] Invisble Agression Counter

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Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Xenogenesis Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.10 23:00:00 - [1] NOTE: This is in no way a gripe or a whine against Ninja Salvages/Can Tippers or anyone who enjoys using such mechanics to there advantage. I'm not here to buff or nerf... this is strictly about the Aggression Counter. So if your here to flame me then please do STFU and move along. Have a nice day and enjoy your complimentary cookie for reading this. Some time ago I was enjoying a Level 4 with my corp mates when we got visited by a Tech 1 Frigate who was intent on pilfering our hard earned work. Yes yes I'm aware of all that bullcrap about it not being our property and what not... I'm not here to debate. Point is we where intent on claiming that as our own so I locked him up and made it clear I was intending to make my point clear... he went blinky and then I opened up on his shiny little rear end and sent him screaming away. Now at this point most noobs fall prey to the "gank" that takes place when he goes to get a bigger ship... not intending to repeat history I ordered my fleet to warp off to some deep space and sat there for about 10 minutes. The Aggression counter was ticking down predictably at 15 Minutes so I knew I was going to be free-for-all to him and his corp if applicable. Eventually I docked up and sat there... you undock with said counter it warns you that your in a nasty situation that may involve you getting shot at. I moved my mouse cursor over the timer and could see there was 2 timers. One was the standard and there was an "unkown" (classic eve glitch eh?). I waited until the timer finished... no more pop up window. I waited an another 5 to 10 minutes and then went back to finish my mission. Only to see a Tengu warp in and light my ass up. (Ouch) Now... let me clear something up. 1: Aggression Counter is gone... nada... zip... Plus 10 minutes since that point. 2: I Didn't shoot the tengu as I was busy killing something else. 3: Drones where stowed... didn't need them at the time. Everyone I spoke too tells me that he should have been CONCORD'd (would have been a classic epic fail moment to be sure). But instead he was able to shoot me without restraint. I Petitioned this... not for my ship mind you... but for clarifcation if not indicating a problem. I was told (Paraphrased) that they are aware of the "problem" and its a legitimate mechanic. That pilots can shoot wrecks to EXTEND the aggression timer at-will to keep said victim free to open fire on. Now I'd be first to call that an exploit... because there is no indication of such a thing taking place. However... I admit this is a legitimate (albeit nasty and disgusting) profession and I cannot on good conscience as a participant of these boards scream/cry/whine about it. My problem is that there was no timer. What-so-ever. What is the point of having an aggression timer that doesn't show up when being extended? Everything I've read... researched... discussed... even pilots who do this for fun (gank baiting via ninja salvaging) have told me that the 15 min timer is the golden rule/standard. If I didn't encourage more aggression... and there's no timer. He should have been CONCORD'd. *Continued on next post... ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Drake Draconis Shadow Cadre Xenogenesis Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.10 23:08:00 - [2] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 10/06/2010 23:11:14 That said... I propose the following be done: 1: Aggression Timer gets updated/fixed/patched to indicate ANY changes or extensions of that timer in any form or fashion to indicate to you that your able to get shot at. 2: Aggression Timer is yanked out and removed entirely as at this point there is no relevant reason to keep something that is completely useless and broken. 3: Remove the Exploitive nature of extending a timer by shooting wrecks/cans when no notice is given to owner. Thereby going back to the standard 15 minute rules so to speak. And in all honesty that timer should be extended by the one that SHOOTS back... not the one that does the ninja salvaging/can tipping. But that's a messy business. Pros/Cons: 1: No changes to mechanic other than the pilot who shot at ninja salvager is aware that ninja salvager can shoot back. No Cons. 2: Pros: Ninja Salvagers and Can Tippers get an unspecified amount of time and its a guessing game. Cons: Its a guessing Game for everyone. 3: Pros: Ninja Salvagers can't exploit the system by extending the time to shoot back... 15 minutes is all you get. Cons: Depends on your perspective. But 15 minutes is an awful lot of time to respond for crying out loud. Personally I prefer 1. Keeps balance and no one loses anything other than knowledge that the situation is getting extended. AGAIN... I knew what I was getting into and I have no qualms about what took place. But I was TOLD... UNDERSTOOD... aggression timer means "you can get shot at". No Aggression counter means I'm safe for the most part. Invisible Aggression counter is BAD... stupid. So yeah... flame away and make with the whining. X) And I feel its unbalanced. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Domukuan II	Posted - 2010.06.10 23:20:00 - [3] I agree that either the timer should be fixed (optimal) or removed (viable) since having a broken mechanic designed to level the playing that can be exploited so easily in a way that makes it unbalanced is absurd. The fact that CCP knows about this issue but chooses not to fix it in some way is infuriating. The timer is there to tell you that you are in combat and at risk. If the timer is there you should be at risk. If the timer is not there you should be safe. I acknowledge the fun of ninja salvaging (I've done it myself) but even I think this is insanely unfair to the people who think they're fine only to be blasted to bits due to a broken mechanic. I support any of the mentioned remedies preferably fixing the timer or removing the ability to extend the timer.
Madner Kami Gallente Durendal Ascending Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub	Posted - 2010.06.10 23:24:00 - [4] Edited by: Madner Kami on 10/06/2010 23:26:08 Insist on escalating your petition. If it really was like you said, then it's a first class exploit. So just to clear it up: He shoots your wrecks and your agression-timer gets an extension? That's just rediculous.
I SoStoned	Posted - 2010.06.10 23:31:00 - [5] Edited by: I SoStoned on 10/06/2010 23:32:20 Here's how this exploit (and it is a blatant exploit CCP has made no pains to eliminate) works: Get aggro from target in mission/mining area. Aggro party leaves to safe or dock up. Return and find a wreck or jetcan and plink it every 30 seconds, just make sure it doesn't pop. A scram works well for this. This will maintain aggression for up to 30 minutes (This was the longest duration I could be arsed to confirm) after the victim's timer has lapsed, if not longer. Victim thinks they're clear and returns to the mission/mining area to be happily BBQd. Corp mate lost an Orca to this exploit (docked for 30 minutes after initial aggro, undocked and got PWNT), but CCP said it was not a reimbursable loss. This hole needs to be patched. --- Dreamer: My dream, Freddy! MY RULES. Freddy Kruger: groans Awwwww, f**k. --- Never give up!
Madner Kami Durendal Ascending Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub	Posted - 2010.06.10 23:34:00 - [6] Edited by: Madner Kami on 10/06/2010 23:34:03 Legitimate my ass. That's just broken. How blind do you have to be, to see that as 'working as intended'?
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Xenogenesis Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.10 23:56:00 - [7] Originally by: Madner Kami Edited by: Madner Kami on 10/06/2010 23:28:33 Insist on escalating your petition. If it really was like you said, then it's a first-class exploit. So just to clear it up: He shoots your wrecks and your agression-timer gets an extension? That's just rediculous. Bingo. Honestly the bit about extending the aggression timer isn't my beef... its the lack of an aggression timer period. However... I admit its rather exploitative as far as how you highlighted it. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.06.11 00:04:00 - [8] Meh, I've known about this for a really long time - maybe 3 years or so? I can go with you getting a notification of your aggression being extended, but this is a legitimate thing to use, situationally. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Madner Kami Gallente Durendal Ascending Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub	Posted - 2010.06.11 00:05:00 - [9] Edited by: Madner Kami on 11/06/2010 00:07:46 Originally by: Drake Draconis Honestly the bit about extending the aggression timer isn't my beef... its the lack of an aggression timer period. Well, basically it just looks like an extension. The fact, that it's invisible makes it even worse on my book. Originally by: Liang Nuren Meh, I've known about this for a really long time - maybe 3 years or so? I can go with you getting a notification of your aggression being extended, but this is a legitimate thing to use, situationally. -Liang Someone does an act of agression towards you and you are the one, who takes the penalty instead of the agressor. How can that be legitimate? Am I missing something?
De'Veldrin Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.06.11 01:24:00 - [10] If you have an aggression counter towards you, that counter should be visible, regardless. --Vel
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.06.11 01:32:00 - [11] Fully agreed, the status quo is silly.
Darkwolf TOG Empire DRACONIAN COVENANT	Posted - 2010.06.11 03:51:00 - [12] Supported. If you're going to have a timer on display, it should be accurate no matter what.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.06.11 05:28:00 - [13] Originally by: Madner Kami Someone does an act of agression towards you and you are the one, who takes the penalty instead of the agressor. How can that be legitimate? Am I missing something? Wait, you attacked them and got aggression. Aggression is and should be renewed with any hostile action by either party. No, I don't really support changing it, but I do support the timer always being accurate. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Xenogenesis Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.11 09:11:00 - [14] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Madner Kami Someone does an act of agression towards you and you are the one, who takes the penalty instead of the agressor. How can that be legitimate? Am I missing something? Wait, you attacked them and got aggression. Aggression is and should be renewed with any hostile action by either party. No, I don't really support changing it, but I do support the timer always being accurate. -Liang Said "Timer" better be effing present or its an effing exploit. No if's and's or but's about it. Don't give a crap about who extends what and where and how... no "visible" timer means its crap. End of story. PS: Although extending it is a bit of a cheap shot to be quite honest. 15 minutes is more than enough time to go find someone... and you get what.. 5 to bar them from docking up/gating out? Please... cry me a river. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Gavjack Bunk	Posted - 2010.06.11 10:32:00 - [15] Maybe next time you won't engage somebody with lethal force just because they took an item from you. You started the fight. Pay the price. I too want this bug fixing. It's an entirely unreliable means of extending aggro. If they leave system, it barely works at all, and then if you dock yourself you sometimes end up being vulnerable but no longer with shooting rights. CCP fix this immediately so that I can extend aggro indefinitely and reliably against these vigilante thugs and their associates.
Aphrodite Skripalle	Posted - 2010.06.11 12:12:00 - [16] This should be fixed, but cpp likes to ignore it. For me this is a very unfair exploit. ccp really sucks, if they dont fix this fast.
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.06.11 14:15:00 - [17] Originally by: De'Veldrin If you have an aggression counter towards you, that counter should be visible, regardless. this.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Xenogenesis Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.11 19:02:00 - [18] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 11/06/2010 19:05:34 Originally by: Gavjack Bunk Maybe next time you won't engage somebody with lethal force just because they took an item from you. You started the fight. Pay the price. I too want this bug fixing. It's an entirely unreliable means of extending aggro. If they leave system, it barely works at all, and then if you dock yourself you sometimes end up being vulnerable but no longer with shooting rights. CCP fix this immediately so that I can extend aggro indefinitely and reliably against these vigilante thugs and their associates. 1: Quote: NOTE: This is in no way a gripe or a whine against Ninja Salvages/Can Tippers or anyone who enjoys using such mechanics to there advantage. I'm not here to buff or nerf... this is strictly about the Aggression Counter. So if your here to flame me then please do STFU and move along. Have a nice day and enjoy your complimentary cookie for reading this. 2: If your going to support it... support it. PS: Word of advise... READ... it helps. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Ophelia Ursus	Posted - 2010.06.11 19:18:00 - [19] Originally by: Darkwolf If you're going to have a timer on display, it should be accurate no matter what.
Gavjack Bunk	Posted - 2010.06.12 23:09:00 - [20] Edited by: Gavjack Bunk on 12/06/2010 23:11:47 Originally by: Drake Draconis Edited by: Drake Draconis on 11/06/2010 19:05:34 Originally by: Gavjack Bunk Maybe next time you won't engage somebody with lethal force just because they took an item from you. You started the fight. Pay the price. I too want this bug fixing. It's an entirely unreliable means of extending aggro. If they leave system, it barely works at all, and then if you dock yourself you sometimes end up being vulnerable but no longer with shooting rights. CCP fix this immediately so that I can extend aggro indefinitely and reliably against these vigilante thugs and their associates. 1: Quote: NOTE: This is in no way a gripe or a whine against Ninja Salvages/Can Tippers or anyone who enjoys using such mechanics to there advantage. I'm not here to buff or nerf... this is strictly about the Aggression Counter. So if your here to flame me then please do STFU and move along. Have a nice day and enjoy your complimentary cookie for reading this. 2: If your going to support it... support it. PS: Word of advise... READ... it helps. I read it. He's not griping whining or moaning about people using this to their advantage. Thank you for taking the time to point that out. Now maybe if you would do me the courtesy and read what I put that would be lovely. And I mean, the words I typed, not the words you read, or merely wished that I had typed. You're not pleased that I didn't tick the box that serves no useful purpose? Awww. Well, I feel bad for you. This timer issue has been known to CCP for many years, it's not big surprise to them, and it's been attemped to be fixed at least twice that I know of, being a routine abuser of it, and, in the end, there is an undock warning, because they literally seem unable to fix the problem. Let me put a thumbs up to remind CCP that they have failed? You really really want me? Hang on, I mean "You weally weally want me dooo... doowoo? doowoo want da bad man do pud a fumbs up doo woo?" If somebody wants to tell me to Shut The **** Up then I rather more politely invite them to go copulate with their mother, because abbreviating it to STFU doesn't make them any less of a intellectual lightweight. So, go ahead, read what I put instead of foaming into your keyboard and see if you can tell me where you made your mistake.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Xenogenesis Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.13 00:54:00 - [21] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 13/06/2010 00:53:53 Originally by: Gavjack Bunk I read it. He's not griping whining or moaning about people using this to their advantage. Thank you for taking the time to point that out. Now maybe if you would do me the courtesy and read what I put that would be lovely. And I mean, the words I typed, not the words you read, or merely wished that I had typed. That's YOUR... not he... I'm the one making this proposal. You sure your reading correctly? If you had read the proposal you would have known that this is specifcally about the agression counter. Instead your trolling to be trolling and if anything its a clear sign of your inability to pay attention to details. I don't give a #### about the ship I lost anymore... moved on to something else and having a ball doing it. So spare me the lecture. Quote: You're not pleased that I didn't tick the box that serves no useful purpose? Awww. Well, I feel bad for you. This timer issue has been known to CCP for many years, it's not big surprise to them, and it's been attemped to be fixed at least twice that I know of, being a routine abuser of it, and, in the end, there is an undock warning, because they literally seem unable to fix the problem. Let me put a thumbs up to remind CCP that they have failed? You really really want me? Hang on, I mean "You weally weally want me dooo... doowoo? doowoo want da bad man do pud a fumbs up doo woo?" This is assembly hall.. a place where people make ideas and propose fixes... old or new for that matter. It's what we got for a system and until such time CCP gets up off there ass and comes up with a better system... lets make sure it gets used to its maximum potential. Now if you just don't give a crap... than please don't bother participating as your no different than most of the trolls around these parts. Quote: If somebody wants to tell me to Shut The **** Up then I rather more politely invite them to go copulate with their mother, because abbreviating it to STFU doesn't make them any less of a intellectual lightweight. So, go ahead, read what I put instead of foaming into your keyboard and see if you can tell me where you made your mistake. Oh I read it alright... all I got was the same exact message... you know its a problem... but you don't give a ####. Thanks for clearing that up. If I was posting to whine about losing my ship... this would be a different thread all together. Besides... I never liked that ship anyway... it was a piece of trash. So I'm glad its gone. My point is the aggression counter.... now if your going to insist on accusing me of throwing a fit over attacking someone and losing my ship... you can go to crime and punishment where you will find plenty of people doing that. As I said (for the Nth time now) this is about the agression counter. I was told on countless occasions now... if you engage... its 15 minutes... if you engage again... it renews. I waited the full 15 minutes time and it still glitched. Now cut the BS and get back on subject. Thank you for your cooperation. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Seamus Donohue	Posted - 2010.06.13 02:39:00 - [22] Supported. __________________________________________________ Survivor of Teskanen, fan of John Rourke.
Netacq	Posted - 2010.06.13 06:55:00 - [23] Edited by: Netacq on 13/06/2010 06:55:55 - a lag-delay between displays at screen and server-state can't be prevented; but this is not the case here - buggy game mechanics must be repaired - buggy designed timer be should never be displayed Btw., if I remember correctly the shooting at wrecks to increase the hidden counter was handled in the past as exploit? Do we have now different rules for Empire and 0.0 ?!?!
Gavjack Bunk	Posted - 2010.06.13 23:00:00 - [24] Originally by: Drake Draconis Edited by: Drake Draconis on 13/06/2010 00:53:53 Originally by: Gavjack Bunk I read it. He's not griping whining or moaning about people using this to their advantage. Thank you for taking the time to point that out. Now maybe if you would do me the courtesy and read what I put that would be lovely. And I mean, the words I typed, not the words you read, or merely wished that I had typed. That's YOUR... not he... I'm the one making this proposal. You sure your reading correctly? If you had read the proposal you would have known that this is specifcally about the agression counter. Instead your trolling to be trolling and if anything its a clear sign of your inability to pay attention to details. I don't give a #### about the ship I lost anymore... moved on to something else and having a ball doing it. So spare me the lecture. Quote: You're not pleased that I didn't tick the box that serves no useful purpose? Awww. Well, I feel bad for you. This timer issue has been known to CCP for many years, it's not big surprise to them, and it's been attemped to be fixed at least twice that I know of, being a routine abuser of it, and, in the end, there is an undock warning, because they literally seem unable to fix the problem. Let me put a thumbs up to remind CCP that they have failed? You really really want me? Hang on, I mean "You weally weally want me dooo... doowoo? doowoo want da bad man do pud a fumbs up doo woo?" This is assembly hall.. a place where people make ideas and propose fixes... old or new for that matter. It's what we got for a system and until such time CCP gets up off there ass and comes up with a better system... lets make sure it gets used to its maximum potential. Now if you just don't give a crap... than please don't bother participating as your no different than most of the trolls around these parts. Quote: If somebody wants to tell me to Shut The **** Up then I rather more politely invite them to go copulate with their mother, because abbreviating it to STFU doesn't make them any less of a intellectual lightweight. So, go ahead, read what I put instead of foaming into your keyboard and see if you can tell me where you made your mistake. Oh I read it alright... all I got was the same exact message... you know its a problem... but you don't give a ####. Thanks for clearing that up. If I was posting to whine about losing my ship... this would be a different thread all together. Besides... I never liked that ship anyway... it was a piece of trash. So I'm glad its gone. My point is the aggression counter.... now if your going to insist on accusing me of throwing a fit over attacking someone and losing my ship... you can go to crime and punishment where you will find plenty of people doing that. As I said (for the Nth time now) this is about the agression counter. I was told on countless occasions now... if you engage... its 15 minutes... if you engage again... it renews. I waited the full 15 minutes time and it still glitched. Now cut the BS and get back on subject. Thank you for your cooperation. Since you chose to make no sense... Apples, with the carrot flayed nicely on the moon beam. And I will not support this ridiculous proposal, may it die swiftly as it surely shall, for even if the CSM were to even read it, propose it, push it, CCP would ignore it, as they have so often. I participated in the CSM process. And I won. Because it won't get fixed. Several notions claim brilliance into the segment twelve night. Pah! Nay I said, several ones.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Xenogenesis Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.14 19:32:00 - [25] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 14/06/2010 19:34:26 Edited by: Drake Draconis on 14/06/2010 19:32:48 Gavjack Bunk: Then shoo troll shoo before the Mods have to clean up your mess again. Because obviously your just flat off your rocker. ---- Quote: Btw., if I remember correctly the shooting at wrecks to increase the hidden counter was handled in the past as exploit? Do we have now different rules for Empire and 0.0 ?!?! LowSec/0.0 doesn't really matter too much as CONCORD isn't involved... except for stargate lockout/station lockout/sentry aggro. As far as I know the rules apply to everyone and everything... just not "Swift enforcement" when you break them like you would have in High Sec Space. I have read some frustrations/complaints and other issues involving this nasty little glitch but its not a frequent occurrence due to lack of CONCORD. PS: Why isn't there a full disclosure on Aggression Mechanics posted somewhere? Just the rules/guidelines CCP enforces in-game? You'd think you could find information easily. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Maxsim Goratiev Imperial Tau Syndicate	Posted - 2010.06.14 20:28:00 - [26] Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 14/06/2010 20:30:11 IF there is a piece of Ui in eve, it needs to work. Unfortunately frequently that is not the case. This bull** needs to be fixed. I personally would prefer #3, because it makes no sence how does someone get an extended right to fire at me by destroying my property. Another case of something being missed out by CCP. Fix this. Jesus crist. And if this really existed for 3 years, that makes me sad. You know, how about we make an invulnerability timer for nullsec that does not do anything, huh? Quote:** Maybe next time you won't engage somebody with lethal force just because they took an item from you. You started the fight. Pay the price. Because not a single thread can go about without a personal judgment on the op. The only advice i can give is next time more lethal force needs to be applied so that ninja looses both ships. Eve forums is a place where brave man battled against trolls like Gavjack Bunk and /b/ tards. Good job finding another mishap that costed people lives.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.06.14 20:51:00 - [27] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 14/06/2010 20:52:05 Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 14/06/2010 20:30:11 IF there is a piece of Ui in eve, it needs to work. Unfortunately frequently that is not the case. This bull**** needs to be fixed. I personally would prefer #3, because it makes no sence how does someone get an extended right to fire at me by destroying my property. Another case of something being missed out by CCP. Fix this. Jesus crist. And if this really existed for 3 years, that makes me sad. See, the overall impact of this is actually pretty small. In 0.0, it mostly impacts people that are ratting in a system and then attack someone - and then run away and AFK cloak. If someone sits there extending the aggression counter there's a small chance that the original party will log out for some reason leaving him open to be scanned out. In low sec, the same risk exists but there's stations everywhere and someone will just dock in one of them. No, the problem is most evident for people that rely on Concord to protect their mission. Move to low sec and just blow him up when he enters your mission. This is really an extremely small 'issue' - and in reality the only real issue here is that the aggression counter isn't visibly renewed for both parties. That's it. Aggression should be renewed by any hostile action by either party. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2010.06.14 21:49:00 - [28] Supported
Imigo Montoya	Posted - 2010.06.15 02:35:00 - [29] Just to clarify, the OP is not wanting to change how aggression works, only how the timer is shown (or not). Also, as I understand it, this is what Liang is suggesting - the timer needs to be accurate. I would have to agree. The aggression timer needs to show whether aggression can legally happen between two players. It's that simple. Regardless of how or why or whether it's fair that the aggression timer changes, it is critical that the player is given the correct information about aggression so that they are able to make choices. Sid Meier defines a game as "a series of interesting choices". The choices aren't so interesting if you are given false information to base them on.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Xenogenesis Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.15 03:21:00 - [30] Originally by: Imigo Montoya Just to clarify, the OP is not wanting to change how aggression works, only how the timer is shown (or not). Also, as I understand it, this is what Liang is suggesting - the timer needs to be accurate. Semi-correct. The main point is the visibility of the timer. However... to me it is exploitative to be able to extend that timer without restraint by shooting wrecks. I would hardly consider that an act of aggression as its just a pile of trash. But yes... the timer visibility is the main issue. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================

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