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Pamela Kamela
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Posted - 2010.06.20 22:44:00 -
[31]
there is no point to join amarr vs minmatar anymor.
minmatar tend to run away and dock as fast as they can when dont outblob you 4 to 1.
they even run if u engage 2 or 3 of them solo.
they sit in auga spinning their ships and wait for cptn. vagina to rally a huge blob lol.
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Shigeru Potatomoto
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Posted - 2010.06.21 15:02:00 -
[32]
It's not faction frigs or blobs, it's people who won't fight unless they're in faction frigs or blobs. I'm a pirate who flies Rifters and I see plenty of T1 vanilla frigs in plexes. Typically they do one of two things when you approach them with hostile intent:
1) Warp out (most common) there's plenty of other plexes to farm--er I mean, capture.
2) Burn away safely out of point/tackle range, kiting their aggressor through NPCs. Please understand I'm not complaining about the NPCs or even using them to your advantage, but these guys don't even point/tackle so you can't get away from the rats.
Either they aren't smart enough to do that, are afraid you'll point/tackle them back, or don't have a point or tackle because they're flying PVE ft.
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Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.21 15:36:00 -
[33]
 Originally by: Shigeru Potatomoto
It's not faction frigs or blobs, it's people who won't fight unless they're in faction frigs or blobs. I'm a pirate who flies Rifters and I see plenty of T1 vanilla frigs in plexes. Typically they do one of two things when you approach them with hostile intent:
1) Warp out (most common) there's plenty of other plexes to farm--er I mean, capture.
2) Burn away safely out of point/tackle range, kiting their aggressor through NPCs. Please understand I'm not complaining about the NPCs or even using them to your advantage, but these guys don't even point/tackle so you can't get away from the rats.
Either they aren't smart enough to do that, are afraid you'll point/tackle them back, or don't have a point or tackle because they're flying PVE ft.
You are of course correct. Plexing in FW, due to the current mechanics, is largely a pve activity. Until CCP makes some changes to the mechanics û let militias know when, where and in what people are plexing û it will remain a pve activity.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Flashh Gorden
COLD-Wing
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Posted - 2010.06.21 15:51:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Shigeru Potatomoto
It's not faction frigs or blobs, it's people who won't fight unless they're in faction frigs or blobs. I'm a pirate who flies Rifters and I see plenty of T1 vanilla frigs in plexes. Typically they do one of two things when you approach them with hostile intent:
1) Warp out (most common) there's plenty of other plexes to farm--er I mean, capture.
2) Burn away safely out of point/tackle range, kiting their aggressor through NPCs. Please understand I'm not complaining about the NPCs or even using them to your advantage, but these guys don't even point/tackle so you can't get away from the rats.
Either they aren't smart enough to do that, are afraid you'll point/tackle them back, or don't have a point or tackle because they're flying PVE ft.
I dont understand your logic here. Your un happy about them kiting you through the rats but when thier in a holstile plex you dont expect them to warp out but fight you and the rats at the same time?
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Shigeru Potatomoto
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Posted - 2010.06.21 17:26:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Shigeru Potatomoto on 21/06/2010 17:27:38
Not unhappy, just responding to the original topic about why there aren't more fights involving solo T1 frigate players in plexes . Now get back to your tag farming and watch that local.
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Obyrith
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Posted - 2010.06.21 19:49:00 -
[36]
Believe me, the amount of 'tag farming' that goes on in FW plexes is almost definitely zero. If people are in plexes it's either because they care about capping them or about standings rewards. Anyone who wants isk from FW is running FW missions for LP. That operates by the same principle as high-sec mission farming: blitz everything and go home.
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Flashh Gorden
COLD-Wing
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Posted - 2010.06.22 10:12:00 -
[37]
Untill they block faction frigs from entering minor plexes witch is highly unlikely your not going to get much T1 frig action.
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Ackwell
Caldari
Tiera Javelin Ltd.
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Posted - 2010.06.22 12:57:00 -
[38]
Dramiels don't like arty fitted thrashers with tracking enhancers and tracking computers... if your enemy is going 5000m/s transversal 50km away you can place perfect hits from that range if your tracking speed is 0.1 or greater.
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Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2010.06.22 20:16:00 -
[39]
Originally by: chatgris
Frig fights are definitely down in minor plexes, IMO due to the dramiel being extremely OP within minor plexes.
Not just within plexes, but in general. I will not engage a Dramiel in any other frigate at all, because I know that there's two outcomes: I die, or the Dramiel runs off.
I'm not the best pilot in the world though.
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1Ekrid1
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Posted - 2010.06.23 02:15:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Shigeru Potatomoto
It's not faction frigs or blobs, it's people who won't fight unless they're in faction frigs or blobs. I'm a pirate who flies Rifters and I see plenty of T1 vanilla frigs in plexes. Typically they do one of two things when you approach them with hostile intent:
1) Warp out (most common) there's plenty of other plexes to farm--er I mean, capture.
2) Burn away safely out of point/tackle range, kiting their aggressor through NPCs. Please understand I'm not complaining about the NPCs or even using them to your advantage, but these guys don't even point/tackle so you can't get away from the rats.
Either they aren't smart enough to do that, are afraid you'll point/tackle them back, or don't have a point or tackle because they're flying PVE ft.
just because someone doesnt have a point or web doesnt mean theyre PVE fit. where isw this fitting chauvinism coming from?
There's 1, repeat 1, frigate in the T1 lineup designed to be a suicide tackler. the rest are for COMBAT. so don't tell me to tackle when I'm in a combat T1 frig. OR tell CCP to fix their mess. |
ItsmeHcK1
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.06.23 21:21:00 -
[41]
I see a lot of whining, but not a lot of skills...
Everyone in this thread basically complains about a 100M ship being more powerful than the 200k counterpart, while killing them is really insanely easy.
The only real power of the Dramiel is its speed, which usually means the ability to get out...
Now throw in an Arbitrator/Vexor/Rupture or 2 webbing frigates and you've got yourself a dead Dramiel. :)
And yes, I do fly 'em, lost a few of 'em and mostly still fly T1 frigates and cruisers.
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.23 21:24:00 -
[42]
Originally by: ItsmeHcK1
Now throw in an Arbitrator/Vexor/Rupture or 2 webbing frigates and you've got yourself a dead Dramiel. :)
Those ships can't get into the minor complexes in fw, which what this thread was initially about.
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1Ekrid1
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Posted - 2010.06.27 21:35:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Ralnik
Originally by: chatgris
Frig fights are definitely down in minor plexes, IMO due to the dramiel being extremely OP within minor plexes.
They aren't completely over, but they're definitely down.
This is pretty much it.. The Dramiel and even the Navy Slicer have kinda killed the minors, as both have ability to out range, just about any other T1 frig in the game and use MWD's.
The Firetail and the Comet are pretty good as well which pretty much makes other T1 frigs obsolete and typically have to run off soon as a Faction frig enter the plexes.
we can all agree in this thread the dramiel just outdoes anything, which is why I had put in the idea to an idea thread in the idea forum that dramiels should have -10-15% straight to Afterburner and MWD speed, not only to make the dumb dual propping less OP, but to give the role of the 'ship that can fly to or get out of there fast every single time if it looks bad' back to whom it belongs; interceptors.
There's 1, repeat 1, frigate in the T1 lineup designed to be a suicide tackler. the rest are for COMBAT. so don't tell me to tackle when I'm in a combat T1 frig. OR tell CCP to fix their mess. |
Bourreau
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.06.28 00:11:00 -
[44]
Originally by: 1Ekrid1
we can all agree in this thread the dramiel just outdoes anything, which is why I had put in the idea to an idea thread in the idea forum that dramiels should have -10-15% straight to Afterburner and MWD speed, not only to make the dumb dual propping less OP, but to give the role of the 'ship that can fly to or get out of there fast every single time if it looks bad' back to whom it belongs; interceptors.
Dramiel is an interceptor, and a very expensive one at that. Whoever posted about arty thrashers is 100% correct. Everything can be countered, especially when its used in a predictable way.
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Athena Silk
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2010.06.29 02:11:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Bourreau
Originally by: 1Ekrid1
we can all agree in this thread the dramiel just outdoes anything, which is why I had put in the idea to an idea thread in the idea forum that dramiels should have -10-15% straight to Afterburner and MWD speed, not only to make the dumb dual propping less OP, but to give the role of the 'ship that can fly to or get out of there fast every single time if it looks bad' back to whom it belongs; interceptors.
Dramiel is an interceptor, and a very expensive one at that. Whoever posted about arty thrashers is 100% correct. Everything can be countered, especially when its used in a predictable way.
The problem with arty thrashers is that you get ONE volley before a dual-prop Dramiel is under your guns and all up in your face. And then you die in a fire. 2 volleys, if you're REALLY lucky and the dram is a bit ******ed. And you're not punching through a 5k eHP Dramiel in one volley, I'm afraid to say.
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Allbrecht
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.06.29 06:50:00 -
[46]
Not trying to hijack the thread, but just 2c on if you want frig fights etc:
If you want to do frig fights, RvB is the way to go. I've played for a few years and gotten my feet wet in almost all aspects of the game. However, I've had the most amount of fun in RvB. As a matter of fact, I just got done doing 5 pre-arranged frig fights that started as a 10v10 and eventually scaled down to 5v5 by the last fight (I think they are still going on, but I had to log.) Having somewhat even numbered fights is so much better than flying in the dark wondering whats on the other side of the stargate.
I've seen more action in RvB than my whole 0.0 career on all my characters put together. To the people who will say "lol u mst nt have pvpd much" No, staring at your character screen waiting to log back in because of a node crash does not count as pvp action. Neither does sitting on a gate for 4 hours and then moving because of an incoming blob.
If you want frig fights, give RvB a fair shot. There are brand-new characters and old players too.
Keep in mind too dessy/cruiser/whatever fights are also arranged if people are up for it.
Apply today! |
Flashh Gorden
COLD-Wing
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Posted - 2010.06.29 08:19:00 -
[47]
Getting the thread back on track.
If we can agree the dremial is an expensive interceptor the problem lies with the fact it's classed as frigate and a simple T1 frig at that.
If the dremial was classed as an inty it would no longer fit inside the small plexes.
What determines wether a ship is classed as a frig or a ceptor? You would of thought speed but obiously it's not.
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.06.29 11:31:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Pamela Kamela
there is no point to join amarr vs minmatar anymor.
minmatar tend to run away and dock as fast as they can when dont outblob you 4 to 1.
they even run if u engage 2 or 3 of them solo.
they sit in auga spinning their ships and wait for cptn. vagina to rally a huge blob lol.
The irony is that that is exactly what the Minnies say. I have yet to see any side in FW admit to using blobbing, station camping, etc, but all do. They reality of the situation is that, on all sides there are brave/confident pilots who solo against enemy FW, just that they are a minority. People fly in gangs because a) it's safer (if you're one of many, your chances of losing your internet spaceship are smaller than they would be solo) b) many FW players are fairly new to the game and it is vastly unfair to expect a new player who has the guts to pvp in a frig/dessie/cruiser to solo against pilots with far more experience and skill points, although there are some that do, and c) it's fun, because you have the company of the other people in your gang/fleet.
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.06.29 11:38:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Allbrecht
Not trying to hijack the thread, but just 2c on if you want frig fights etc:
If you want to do frig fights, RvB is the way to go. I've played for a few years and gotten my feet wet in almost all aspects of the game. However, I've had the most amount of fun in RvB. As a matter of fact, I just got done doing 5 pre-arranged frig fights that started as a 10v10 and eventually scaled down to 5v5 by the last fight (I think they are still going on, but I had to log.) Having somewhat even numbered fights is so much better than flying in the dark wondering whats on the other side of the stargate.
I've seen more action in RvB than my whole 0.0 career on all my characters put together. To the people who will say "lol u mst nt have pvpd much" No, staring at your character screen waiting to log back in because of a node crash does not count as pvp action. Neither does sitting on a gate for 4 hours and then moving because of an incoming blob.
If you want frig fights, give RvB a fair shot. There are brand-new characters and old players too.
Keep in mind too dessy/cruiser/whatever fights are also arranged if people are up for it.
Apply today!
Although I've gotten tired of the RvB cliche, I think that I'll give it a shot with my alt, just for the hell of it.
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Bourreau
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.06.30 01:22:00 -
[50]
RvB does sound pretty fun. In regard to not allowing faction frigates into minor plexes: what about the hookbill/comet/firetail/slicer? WHERE WILL IT ALL END?!!
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Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.30 03:59:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Bourreau
RvB does sound pretty fun. In regard to not allowing faction frigates into minor plexes: what about the hookbill/comet/firetail/slicer? WHERE WILL IT ALL END?!!
RVB is fun and it is the best way that I know of to get the most possible frig fights in a short time. RvB has many arranged fights (although not all) whereas other pvp is completely unpredictable.
FW I see as something that has the potential to be in between. The perfect medium. The fights arenÆt literally arranged but the plexes shelter you somewhat from a mob of larger ships and can keep fights pretty balanced.
If the plexes were actually fought over FW would be amazing. Unfortunately, they are not so its hard to see how fw pvp really offers anything unique.
As far as dramiel ruining everything for t1 frigs in complexes û I think the opposite. Yes dramiels are generally stronger than thrashers. But you canÆt fight a thrasher or other dessie in a t1 frig either û and dessies have always been allowed. If you run into a dessie or a dramiel you will usually need to have more than one t1 frig to take it down. So itÆs not like t1 frigs were ever king of minor plex pvp.
The pirate ships and boost to fw frigs have livened things up a bit. Dessies are pretty boring ships that really donÆt lend themselves to much in the way interesting set ups. Option A: Put a bunch of big guns with no tank or Option B: put a bunch of little guns with some tank û that is about it when fitting a dessie. I think combat with frigates is much more fun.
The minor plexes should either 1) only allow vanilla t1 frigs. This would be great for new players because I think the balance, versatility and fun of t1 figates are one of ccps many great achievements in this game. Having them alone in minor plexes would offer new players a great intro to the complexity of pvp without completely overwhelming them.
Or
2)they should also allow t2 AF and interceptors in as well û because its just silly to have 100 million isk pirate frigs in there but not 20 mill t2 frigs.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Bourreau
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.06.30 06:37:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Cearain
The minor plexes should either 1) only allow vanilla t1 frigs. This would be great for new players because I think the balance, versatility and fun of t1 figates are one of ccps many great achievements in this game. Having them alone in minor plexes would offer new players a great intro to the complexity of pvp without completely overwhelming them.
Or
2)they should also allow t2 AF and interceptors in as well û because its just silly to have 100 million isk pirate frigs in there but not 20 mill t2 frigs.
I agree with these points.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.06.30 06:41:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Cearain
As far as dramiel ruining everything for t1 frigs in complexes û I think the opposite. Yes dramiels are generally stronger than thrashers. But you canÆt fight a thrasher or other dessie in a t1 frig either ..<snip>.. So itÆs not like t1 frigs were ever king of minor plex pvp.
And this is why your overall understanding of FW and related mechanics fall short of just about everything.
Let me tell you a story .....
Once upon a time there were very few destroyers used in minor plexes and hardly any faction frigates. You were as likely to encounter a Tristan, Inquisitor or a Condor as you are a Dramiel today .. all the hulls were in use (except for the useless probing/mining ones for obvious reasons  ).
Then changes started coming;
First came QR. The speed-rebalance was a huge boon for frigates everywhere, combat became fast and furious with speed mods replaced by damage/tank .. life was good (RIP Webbing Punisher  ).
But it was not to last, second was the introduction of small rigs (APO) .. this devastated minor plexes, suddenly destroyers were able to cheaply compensate for their lower speeds, fatter sigs and general uselessness and they almost entirely supplanted the multitude of frigates. The good frigate pilot could still fight and win but the margin for error dropped to near zero.
The last nail in the minor plex coffin was Dominion. With navy frigates dropping to peanut range ISK wise (FW LP Store) and pirate frigates exceeding T2 in some/most/all aspects, even destroyers lost their place. The good frigate pilot that could 50:50 a destroyer suddenly got the ability to win each and every time and the poor pilot adopted the 50:50 which is the cause of the faction frigate swarm.
That is the story of the minor plex. The absolutely best time was in between Quantum Rise and Apocrypha 1.5, since then it has gone downhill and variety has taken a fatal blow.
Take from that what you will. For those of us (ie. Me) who lived through the Rise and Fall of the T1 frigate the loss has been profound .. one of the rare cases where "It was better in the old days" has some truth to it 
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Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.30 13:40:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
And this is why your overall understanding of FW and related mechanics fall short of just about everything.
Well I think your post demonstrates your disconnect from the rest of eve.
Posting about general changes like rigs is really beside the point. I donÆt think ccp is really going to get rid of size specific rigs because the dozen or so guys who plex think they were a big boost to destroyers.
Leave the bitterness behind, and think about how fw can be improved without asking ccp to undue major changes that benefit eve in many other ways.
Moreover, your claim is questionable. Rigs or no rigs when you have a destroyer versus a plain t1 frig, your better off in the destroyer. If people in fw didnÆt realize that, or didnÆt care, thatÆs good luck, but donÆt blame rigs.
Bottom line: Even if ccp took away rigs and pirate and faction frigs, destroyers would still be able to chase away frigs from plexes. Your punisher would just be chased away by a thrasher instead of a dramiel.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.06.30 14:27:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Cearain
Well I think your post demonstrates your disconnect from the rest of eve.
Coming from you that is one hell of a statement. Your reply sounds like you didn't even bother to read the post 
I did not advocate anything, merely stated facts as to what has happened to/in minor plexes.
Rigs DID change everything, dropping from several million to a hundred k overnight means you can rig everything with practically no additional cost. Destroyers with their "bigger" base stats gain comparatively more than T1 frigates .. QED.
I was happily murdering Thrashers (both arty and ac) in my Punishers prior to rig changes (read: 50:50 as already stated), thank you very much. Now I have to resort to Slicers or bigger to get the job done due to EHP/Range of Dessies almost being almost doubled by rigs ..
Rigs, together with the more recent faction revamp, are the reasons why minor plexes have turned into faction frigate/destroyer spam cans.
The point of my opening line was an attempt to make you aware of the futility of your campaign to dumb down FW even further just so you and your ilk can gank random 'newbs' once in a while.
The "fix" you are pushing in every thread does not take geographical data, population data, ship types, weapon types, SP numbers, ISK numbers or anything for that matter into consideration and does not address the issues actually plaguing FW.
Some quotes to hammer in what I just said, since you will most likely skip to end "as usual":
'If you want to understand today, you have to search yesterday'. Pearl Buck.
'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins, and
'The Present is the living sum-total of the whole Past'. Thomas Carlyle.
Big picture.
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Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.30 14:59:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
I did not advocate anything, merely stated facts as to what has happened to/in minor plexes.
Rigs DID change everything, dropping from several million to a hundred k overnight means you can rig everything with practically no additional cost. Destroyers with their "bigger" base stats gain comparatively more than T1 frigates .. QED.
I was happily murdering Thrashers (both arty and ac) in my Punishers prior to rig changes (read: 50:50 as already stated), thank you very much. Now I have to resort to Slicers or bigger to get the job done due to EHP/Range of Dessies almost being almost doubled by rigs ..
Ok if you are not advocating anything in your post what is the point of your post? Just to give general information about the past? Yes you can learn from history - sometimes. But you have not yet explained what lesson we should learn and so it seems like you are just giving pointless information.
You bemoan the rig changes and say they made destroyers overpowered in plexes. IÆll agree with that en arguendo. So what? Do you want to undue the rig changes so fw minor plexes arenÆt over powered by dessies? Do you want to undue the changes that made pirate frigs and faction frigs viable so they arenÆt ruining fw plexes? Please state the point of your posting this information.
In my post I basically say the ship balances are what they are. I donÆt expect ccp to change everything for fw plexes because I recognize fw plexing is a small part of eve. I suggested that ccp should simply change the plexes to recognize the reality of how ships are now balanced.
If you think the changes I suggested to plexes would ruin them explain yourself. In the meantime your mo has been that you try to shoot down every idea about fw that is not your own. When responses come back showing your concerns are unfounded you just assert only you have the experience to understand the issues and refuse to engage the points raised.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2010.06.30 16:27:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Ralnik on 30/06/2010 16:34:41
Edited by: Ralnik on 30/06/2010 16:28:26
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
And this is why your overall understanding of FW and related mechanics fall short of just about everything.
Well I think your post demonstrates your disconnect from the rest of eve.
Posting about general changes like rigs is really beside the point. I donÆt think ccp is really going to get rid of size specific rigs because the dozen or so guys who plex think they were a big boost to destroyers.
Leave the bitterness behind, and think about how fw can be improved without asking ccp to undue major changes that benefit eve in many other ways.
Moreover, your claim is questionable. Rigs or no rigs when you have a destroyer versus a plain t1 frig, your better off in the destroyer. If people in fw didnÆt realize that, or didnÆt care, thatÆs good luck, but donÆt blame rigs.
Bottom line: Even if ccp took away rigs and pirate and faction frigs, destroyers would still be able to chase away frigs from plexes. Your punisher would just be chased away by a thrasher instead of a dramiel.
He isn't saying they need to get rid of the rigs, but rather when they were added they changed the game-play and affected frig fights in FW.
Overall I'd say he's about right, my original toon started mid Q Rise and I almost instantly started PVPing and shorty later joined FW.
I do remember getting a "lot" more frig fights in plexes back then and there were a lot less destroyers. Hell I think I only saw one Faction frig in that time period and it was an Evil Succubus. I attacked it in my Kessie and died horribly! (yea a kessie! when was the last time you saw a Kessie that was popping a cyno on a station)
Now, I wouldn't do away with the cheap rigs, but they did change the landscape in FW. Prior to them being added I did see a lot more various frigs out roaming around.
Sometime after that I started running into lots of Thrashers and Coercers in plexes and because I was more into figs I stopped fighting in them. After the faction frigs because so cheap and uber I pretty much stopped unlocking any frigs for PVP.
Over all it was a few changes that ended up killing T1 frig fights in plexes and the Faction frigs were just the last nail in the coffin.
Back then I was able to be competitive in FW plexes flying Rifters at around 2 months. Now with all faction frigs, noobs have little choice but to join the blos or just become easy prey for some l33t PVPer flying the latest FoTM faction frig.
edit..
The rigs are really a double edge sword. Now that they are cheap, there are Tristan & Merlin fits that can easily go toe to toe with the Rifter something in the past that wasn't as likely.
On the Amarr front, I'd say the Punisher got hurt more by the projectile ammo changes than Rigs when looking at T1 vs T1 non faction frigs. The punisher used to be a deadly opposition in the right hands for the Rifter despite being it was much slower.
One the projectile guns got buffed the Punisher kinda lost it's place as it no longer could force the Rifter to get in close, with-in small neut range.
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Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.30 17:53:00 -
[58]
ralnik
Although I think unrigged destroyers are more powerful than unrigged vanilla t1 frigs that discussion really doesnÆt matter. LetÆs just say, for the sake of argument, you guys are correct respecting *every* detail of the history.
We all seem to agree itÆs unfortunate that now we don't see more vanilla t1 frigs in minor plexes. How we got here is irrelevant. Unless you want to undue the changes that got us to this unfortunate state, why bother pointing them out?
Hirana posts that my view on history:
"is why [CearainÆs] overall understanding of FW and related mechanics fall short of just about everything."
Sorry I disagree. We can quibble about how we got here all we want but that doesnÆt really matter. LetÆs say I go see a doctor and say I slipped on water and fell down stairs and broke my leg. But then the person who drove me there says no there was no water it was oil that you slipped on before you fell down the stairs and broke your leg! Now should the detail about whether there was water or oil change the treatment the doctor recommends? This is how Hirana strays from the path of logical thought.
Hirana also claims:
ôThe point of my opening line was an attempt to make you aware of the futility of your campaign to dumb down FW even further just so you and your ilk can gank random 'newbs' once in a while.
The "fix" you are pushing in every thread does not take geographical data, population data, ship types, weapon types, SP numbers, ISK numbers or anything for that matter into consideration and does not address the issues actually plaguing FW.ö
His history may be right but he is totally illogical in the conclusions he draws from it. My proposal was simply to say we should 1) only allow regular t1 hulls in minors or 2)also allow t2 frigs in because the of the current balance of ships. Why this proposal draws that response is beyond me. If you know please tell.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2010.06.30 18:46:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Ralnik on 30/06/2010 18:48:33
Originally by: Cearain
ralnik
Although I think unrigged destroyers are more powerful than unrigged vanilla t1 frigs that discussion really doesnÆt matter. LetÆs just say, for the sake of argument, you guys are correct respecting *every* detail of the history.
We all seem to agree itÆs unfortunate that now we don't see more vanilla t1 frigs in minor plexes. How we got here is irrelevant. Unless you want to undue the changes that got us to this unfortunate state, why bother pointing them out?
Hirana posts that my view on history:
"is why [CearainÆs] overall understanding of FW and related mechanics fall short of just about everything."
Sorry I disagree. We can quibble about how we got here all we want but that doesnÆt really matter. LetÆs say I go see a doctor and say I slipped on water and fell down stairs and broke my leg. But then the person who drove me there says no there was no water it was oil that you slipped on before you fell down the stairs and broke your leg! Now should the detail about whether there was water or oil change the treatment the doctor recommends? This is how Hirana strays from the path of logical thought.
Hirana also claims:
ôThe point of my opening line was an attempt to make you aware of the futility of your campaign to dumb down FW even further just so you and your ilk can gank random 'newbs' once in a while.
The "fix" you are pushing in every thread does not take geographical data, population data, ship types, weapon types, SP numbers, ISK numbers or anything for that matter into consideration and does not address the issues actually plaguing FW.ö
His history may be right but he is totally illogical in the conclusions he draws from it. My proposal was simply to say we should 1) only allow regular t1 hulls in minors or 2)also allow t2 frigs in because the of the current balance of ships. Why this proposal draws that response is beyond me. If you know please tell.
I think the only real question at this point, is why are the faction frigs allowed in the plexes when T2 frigs are not. T1 frigs don't have a chance against any of the Faction frigs unless the pilot is unskilled.
Personally, I don't want to see T2 frigs in the plexes as I'd rather just remove the faction frigs from the minors. The reason for this is because new players today don't really stand a chance unless they blob up due to the in-ballence of some of the faction frigs.
Lets not forget FW was meant to be a training grounds for new players, not just a place to farm easy noob kills. When I started, I was able to compete in the plexes with-in reason and I learned how to do solo and small gang PVP in them.
Now days there is very little venue for new players to do the same, because the same fights aren't out there. They are essentially forced into blobs because they have no where they can legitimately compete now that Faction frigs have over run the plexes and T1 frig fights have become so sparse.
This is the problem with the current situation and why I think at the very least faction frigs should be removed from minors. Do we want to do nothing but feed the blobs more skill-less PVPers, or do we want places that new players can seek out and actually learn how to do solo and small gang pvp?
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Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:58:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Ralnik
Edited by: Ralnik on 30/06/2010 18:48:33
I think the only real question at this point, is why are the faction frigs allowed in the plexes when T2 frigs are not. T1 frigs don't have a chance against any of the Faction frigs unless the pilot is unskilled.
The answer is to that is the same as the answer to why they allow destroyers in. Its just that they always allowed them in. Changes happened in the game at large, but fw never adapted.
Take away the faction frigs and you have minor plex fighting turn into ôthrashers online.ö Personally I prefer it the way it is.
ThatÆs why I say the only real question is either 1) just allow plain vanilla t1 frigs (my personal preference) or 2) allow all the frigs including t2. The second option would at least give some more variety instead of just tons thrashers.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
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