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FW Complex frig fights still likely?

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Mystic Pizza	Posted - 2010.06.16 20:18:00 - [1] I've gotten the impression that FW warriors aren't doing frig fights anymore in minor complexes. All I see around are major plexes, and I imagine frigs inside speed tanking the site. Frankly, couldn't care less about occupancy. But I really like what I think was the original idea behind plexes - fights under set conditions. Frig vs Frig, leave the damn rapier docked. Is this still possible? Likely? Any advice on time of day to find others who want fights? Thanks a bunch Minmatar vs Amarr, FYI
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.06.16 20:41:00 - [2] Frig fights are definitely down in minor plexes, IMO due to the dramiel being extremely OP within minor plexes. They aren't completely over, but they're definitely down.
Bengal Bob Minmatar Royal Order of Security Specialists	Posted - 2010.06.16 20:44:00 - [3] Most minors are cleared by the post DT fleets, at least those in the busy systems where you are most likely to find the WT. Where you do find minors, the most likely result is that you are ignored as the bulk of militia is just busy running missions. If you are reported in the enemy militia then you are usually facing people experienced in fighting in minors. They know that you have an advantage as you are controlling range at the start of the fight and usually get lock first. If you are in a frig, expect a dramiel or slicer. Braver WTs will bring a dessie. Sneaky WTs have a dessie/multiple frigs out of scan range and aligned whilst a tanked punisher warps in to get scram. If you are in a dessie, expect a boring night avoiding the dramiels that are the only opportunity likely to be offered. If you are happy with fleets then post DT is when you will get frig/dessie action Minnie v Amarr
Tony Sharp	Posted - 2010.06.16 21:40:00 - [4] Originally by: chatgris Frig fights are definitely down in minor plexes, IMO due to the dramiel being extremely OP within minor plexes. They aren't completely over, but they're definitely down. ^^ This Since Dominion FW plexing is Dramiel online even beyond minor plexes. Expect some daredevils as well and few faction frigs like comets/slicers etc. Minor plexes were the last domain of T1 frigs in lowsec, now we can safely reprocess them.
Mystic Pizza	Posted - 2010.06.16 21:46:00 - [5] Originally by: Tony Sharp Minor plexes were the last domain of T1 frigs in lowsec, now we can safely reprocess them. Reprocess frigs or the complexes LOL... Maybe Red Vs Blue is the way to go.
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.06.16 23:42:00 - [6] If you want allot of vanilla t1 hull frig solo fights I think rvb is better. If you have more money and want to fly faction frigs there will be more of it in fw. But I would add that you can sit a plex for a long time before anyone will come in it. Plexing - with the possible exception of post-downtime - is not a pvp activity. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Ralnik Mutineers	Posted - 2010.06.16 23:42:00 - [7] Originally by: chatgris Frig fights are definitely down in minor plexes, IMO due to the dramiel being extremely OP within minor plexes. They aren't completely over, but they're definitely down. This is pretty much it.. The Dramiel and even the Navy Slicer have kinda killed the minors, as both have ability to out range, just about any other T1 frig in the game and use MWD's. The Firetail and the Comet are pretty good as well which pretty much makes other T1 frigs obsolete and typically have to run off soon as a Faction frig enter the plexes.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.06.17 06:13:00 - [8] It is all faction frigates and destroyers these days, nothing vanilla left. Kestrels have gone back to their day-jobs (cyno duty!) and everything else is used as expendable tackle .. rather sad really, kind of miss the early days of the war when it was all Punishers, Rifters, Incursus' and Kestrels.
Damar Rocarion	Posted - 2010.06.17 12:05:00 - [9] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida It is all faction frigates and destroyers these days, nothing vanilla left. Kestrels have gone back to their day-jobs (cyno duty!) and everything else is used as expendable tackle .. rather sad really, kind of miss the early days of the war when it was all Punishers, Rifters, Incursus' and Kestrels. I went back thinking when was the last time I had 1 vs 1 in minor plex with vanilla t1 frig/destroyer and it was against a pirate Tristan in my Cormorant. This occurred almost 3 weeks ago. Then I started thinking and looked at killboard and indeed, this has been the only minor plex engament I had since expansion faction frigate boost which did not involve faction frigate (or someone being killed). Dramiel is the tool for all plexes. It can take any sized plex of any faction (tested) and pretty much requires you to bring more numbers, even if you have npcs on your side, if you want to do something about it. Same goes for pirate faction cruisers as Cynabal/Gila are essentially Vagabond/Ishtar that can fit into area where enemy can only bring t1 cruisers against them. This is not a whine, I fly some faction frigs myself so I am not blameless. Just observation that new guys in FW can hardly try to get out of the blob mentality when even supposedly "balanced" enviroment results them being ganked by a frigate which can easily enough solo several cruisers in the game. Damar Rocarion
Herateis	Posted - 2010.06.17 13:29:00 - [10] How to join FW while stay part of my corporation?

Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.06.17 15:25:00 - [11] Originally by: Herateis How to join FW while stay part of my corporation? Not possible. You either join the NPC militia corporation, a corporation that is in militia or manipulate/coerce/seduce your CEO to join up your current corporation.
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.06.17 15:32:00 - [12] Originally by: Ralnik Originally by: chatgris Frig fights are definitely down in minor plexes, IMO due to the dramiel being extremely OP within minor plexes. They aren't completely over, but they're definitely down. This is pretty much it.. The Dramiel and even the Navy Slicer have kinda killed the minors, as both have ability to out range, just about any other T1 frig in the game and use MWD's. ... Although I agree there are allot of faction frigates its not like they single handedly killed off the plain vanilla t1 frigs. You could always bring destroyers into any plex. No vanilla hull t1 frig is going to do well against a destroyer either. You can still get some vanilla t1 frig fights. Not as many in rvb. Its just that you will see allot of destroyers and faction frigs. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Ralnik Mutineers	Posted - 2010.06.17 16:35:00 - [13] Originally by: Cearain Although I agree there are allot of faction frigates its not like they single handedly killed off the plain vanilla t1 frigs. You could always bring destroyers into any plex. No vanilla hull t1 frig is going to do well against a destroyer either. You can still get some vanilla t1 frig fights. Not as many in rvb. Its just that you will see allot of destroyers and faction frigs. Yea, I guess Dessie's are kind of in line with the Faction hulls, but they were always a factor. It's just when Dramiels got buffed and the Faction frigs became so easily accessible, it kind of just made it a waste of time to undock a Rifter anymore. TBH, I can't even remember the last time I undocked a T1 frig and got a fight with just another T1 frig. I kinda ended up giving up on them..
Merdaneth Amarr Angel Wing.	Posted - 2010.06.17 17:00:00 - [14] The dominance of the Dramiel is an important part why I'm not in FW anymore. I either was destroyed by a Dramiel, or if it couldn't kill me, I was held down by so that a larger gang could come in and destroy me. When eight out of every ten fights involved a Dramiel at some point, I'd seen enough. Dramiels have been particularly bad for T1 frig fights, but other small ships like interceptors lost a large part of their niche too with the coming of the faction frigs, in particular the Dramiel. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.06.17 17:15:00 - [15] Edited by: Cearain on 17/06/2010 17:15:32 Originally by: Merdaneth The dominance of the Dramiel is an important part why I'm not in FW anymore. I either was destroyed by a Dramiel, or if it couldn't kill me, I was held down by so that a larger gang could come in and destroy me. When eight out of every ten fights involved a Dramiel at some point, I'd seen enough. Dramiels have been particularly bad for T1 frig fights, but other small ships like interceptors lost a large part of their niche too with the coming of the faction frigs, in particular the Dramiel. The dramiel is a good ship no doubt. Nevertheless I think the pirate ships and improved faction frigs added to the game more than it took away. You still see interceptors and AFs. They still have their roles. Not everyone wants to spend 100million on a frigate. I do think they should either let afs into minor plexes/missions or make it so only plain vanilla t1 hulls are allowed in. To my mind dessies are about as strong as regular faction frigs and ceptors. AFs are stronger than both. And pirate frigs are strongest. It doesnÆt make sense that pirate frigs are allowed in but AFs arenÆt. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.06.17 20:27:00 - [16] Originally by: Cearain It doesnÆt make sense that pirate frigs are allowed in but AFs arenÆt. Definitely. Dramiels are largely better then even the good AFs anyway. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.06.17 21:01:00 - [17] Originally by: Ralnik Originally by: Cearain Although I agree there are allot of faction frigates its not like they single handedly killed off the plain vanilla t1 frigs. You could always bring destroyers into any plex. No vanilla hull t1 frig is going to do well against a destroyer either. You can still get some vanilla t1 frig fights. Not as many in rvb. Its just that you will see allot of destroyers and faction frigs. Yea, I guess Dessie's are kind of in line with the Faction hulls, but they were always a factor. It's just when Dramiels got buffed and the Faction frigs became so easily accessible, it kind of just made it a waste of time to undock a Rifter anymore. TBH, I can't even remember the last time I undocked a T1 frig and got a fight with just another T1 frig. I kinda ended up giving up on them.. Funny I was just checking my killboard. Well I think you got one in april - you bastard. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Ralnik Mutineers	Posted - 2010.06.18 00:22:00 - [18] Edited by: Ralnik on 18/06/2010 00:27:05 Originally by: Cearain Funny I was just checking my killboard. Well I think you got one in april - you bastard. lol well granted I haven't been flying this toon much as of late, but I guess you were in-deed the last 1v1 t1 frig fight I had. Lately, the whole Amarr/Minmatar thing seems to have turned into a bunch of station camping lameness, so I've just been loggin in to update skills and PVPing on my other alt. BTW I do remember that fight, as I think we both ended in structure. I was surprised the Merlin held up that well.
Cyzlaki Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2010.06.18 19:34:00 - [19] Yes, Dramiel is terribly OP. Just look at AT8, most everyone brings at least 2, sometimes 3 drams to a match. It's not just in FW either, they're all over the place.
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.06.18 20:10:00 - [20] Originally by: Cyzlaki Yes, Dramiel is terribly OP. Just look at AT8, most everyone brings at least 2, sometimes 3 drams to a match. It's not just in FW either, they're all over the place. Except in FW, they have lots of places to fight where they only face other t1 frigates and destroyers :(

Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.06.18 20:53:00 - [21] Actually I was expecting to see more drams. I think I saw more sleipnirs drakes rooks and sabres in the tournament but I could be wrong. (Are these statistics posted anywhere?) Pirate frigates in the tournament cost the same as regular faction frigates and AFs. At 4 points they are only 1 point more than a regular frigate. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.06.18 21:06:00 - [22] Originally by: Cearain Actually I was expecting to see more drams... This is the ISD maintained statistics page. Some random numbers: Dramiel has been fielded 61 times. Hurricane has been fielded 61 times. Daredevil has been fielded 46 times. Guardian has been fielded 32 times. Hurricane makes sense, but hadn't expected the infernal to also top Rooks
Ralnik Mutineers	Posted - 2010.06.18 21:53:00 - [23] Edited by: Ralnik on 18/06/2010 21:56:42 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Cearain Actually I was expecting to see more drams... This is the ISD maintained statistics page. Some random numbers: Dramiel has been fielded 61 times. Hurricane has been fielded 61 times. Daredevil has been fielded 46 times. Guardian has been fielded 32 times. Hurricane makes sense, but hadn't expected the infernal to also top Rooks Makes sense though with Projectile Ammo buff. The last tourney also favored heavily on shield tanked set ups, due to the ability to fit lots of damage mods and the RR advantage of instant repairs. With the latest updates it makes sense that the Cane, a already popular ship, would become top dog over what I believe was the Drake in the last tourney. The difference is there is a very limited amount of BC's to choose from and even less that can be propperly shield tanked and put out high DPS. For the most part you get to pick between the Drake and the Cane or a LOL Ferox if your gang is shield tanked. Meanwhile in the frig side there are countless amounts of frigs that "could" serve the role the Drams are now serving. It's just that the Dram is much better than them all. It doesn't matter if it's T1, Faction, T2.. the Dram can kill all of the other with out much of a challenge. Frig PVP has essentially become: if you aren't in a Dram go home and get one, because the other guy is..
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.06.18 22:38:00 - [24] Excellent link Hirana thank you. They snuck more drams in then I thought. On the frigate side (so as not to totally derail the thread) it shouldn't be surprising that they have some daredevils in there too 46. Assault frigs are the same point cost as pirate frigs and not surprisingly they didn't show up much. 26 Ishkurs most popular and 6 jags 2nd most popular. This is just more evidence that letting pirate frigs in minors but not AFs is ****eyed. I am surprised by the numbers of hurricanes. I'm also surprised at Brutix survival rate 58.8%. Interesting that Destroyers only cost 2 points, all faction frigs and afs cost 4 and vanilla t1 frig costs 3. Thrashers not surprisingly the biggest at 32 followed by corms at 8. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Athena Silk State Protectorate	Posted - 2010.06.19 23:54:00 - [25] It always feels like a bit of a cop-out, but "Because of Dramiel" has become the new "Because of Falcon" when it comes to minor plexes. You usually need to bring 3 or more friends, all with webs, to catch a Dram inside a plex, and even then you usually have to get lucky when they first warp in (alts with RSB's). I don't have much problem with the 4 regular faction frigates (Slicer, Comet, Firetail and Hookbill), as they're not as good as their T2 counterparts, but letting the pirate frigates into minor plexes is just wrong. The Daredevil and especially Dramiel are better than AFs in almost every single way, and yet they can get into a minor plex, while a Hawk can't? I can remember a number of situations when it looks like we're going to get a nice small fight (less than 5v5, fairly even numbers) inside a minor plex, and it ends up not being worth it when the other side decides to bring in a couple of Dramiels.
Kruz Sanar	Posted - 2010.06.20 16:41:00 - [26] I've found that Coercers make good ships to run Dramiels off but due to only having one mid there is no way to hold it down to kill it unless he's a ridiculously stupid pilot. It's just a shame that one single frig that cause the downfall to pretty much all frig PVP. As much as I hate to do the Because of Falcon, it really has become much the same thing, when it comes to frig fights these days.
CeneUJiti	Posted - 2010.06.20 17:47:00 - [27] First. Yes you also need good skill to fly a Dramiel, not just the ISK. But. That damn thing might cost like HAC but can sure kill a HAC flied by a noob; and all T1 frigs, and most of T2 frigs if pilot has any skill (and T1 cruisers and BCs). Drami and Daredevil are monsters and would still be unreasonably powerful if they cost 300 mill or whatever. Once we get Tech III frigs its going to get even more ridiculous. Perhaps rework of lot of T1 classes (and removal of tier system) might help a bit, but that is far more work than simply nerfing the things. And yes, only nerfs CCP can do are sledgehammers, so after a certain whining threshold is reached Drami will be nerfed to ground, no balanced solution possible in EVE.
Obyrith	Posted - 2010.06.20 20:53:00 - [28] Originally by: chatgris Frig fights are definitely down in minor plexes, IMO due to the dramiel being extremely OP within minor plexes. They aren't completely over, but they're definitely down. The fact that CCP have themselves said pirate faction frigs are intended to be more powerful than T2, and yet they are allowed into minor plexes while T2 frigs or not, pretty much tells you what the problem with minor plexes in FW is. Personally I think FW would benefit from only allowing pure T1 and navy faction ships into plexes of any level.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.06.20 21:17:00 - [29] Originally by: Obyrith Unfortunately, that's the role of interceptors and AFs now: a budget alternative to the Dramiel. As accurate a description as I have seen on the topic, hat off to you Interceptors and Assaults are still around, but they are limited in numbers and are usually only brought out for specific engagements/gangs .. pirate frigs can fill nearly any role the T2 can using generic fittings so no need to reship unless it dies, that alone is a huge difference.
Donny Maurasi	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:09:00 - [30] Edited by: Donny Maurasi on 20/06/2010 22:10:26 Originally by: Obyrith Pardon my EFT, but currently a mwd'ing pilot with maxed skills in the fastest interceptor available (the Claw) goes 4017m/s, while the same pilot in a Dramiel goes 5059m/s. In other words, it goes 25% faster. That's while fitting a 6K EHP buffer tank, very decent DPS, a small neut and three light drones. Rebalancing that wouldn't even qualify as a nerf, it's completely ridiculous. Currently the Dramiel has an array of stats that would look a bit OP if they were limited to Tech III frigates. Not to mention on top of it's ability to fit tank DPS, Drones and be the fastest ship in the game, it can also fit both an AB and MWD at the same time! Anyone whom thinks that ship is even remotely balanced, is in extreme denial or just doesn't want their solo pawn mobile nerfed, because they like easy killmails.



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