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FW Complex frig fights still likely?

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Mystic Pizza	Posted - 2010.06.16 20:18:00 - [1] I've gotten the impression that FW warriors aren't doing frig fights anymore in minor complexes. All I see around are major plexes, and I imagine frigs inside speed tanking the site. Frankly, couldn't care less about occupancy. But I really like what I think was the original idea behind plexes - fights under set conditions. Frig vs Frig, leave the damn rapier docked. Is this still possible? Likely? Any advice on time of day to find others who want fights? Thanks a bunch Minmatar vs Amarr, FYI
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.06.16 20:41:00 - [2] Frig fights are definitely down in minor plexes, IMO due to the dramiel being extremely OP within minor plexes. They aren't completely over, but they're definitely down.
Bengal Bob Minmatar Royal Order of Security Specialists	Posted - 2010.06.16 20:44:00 - [3] Most minors are cleared by the post DT fleets, at least those in the busy systems where you are most likely to find the WT. Where you do find minors, the most likely result is that you are ignored as the bulk of militia is just busy running missions. If you are reported in the enemy militia then you are usually facing people experienced in fighting in minors. They know that you have an advantage as you are controlling range at the start of the fight and usually get lock first. If you are in a frig, expect a dramiel or slicer. Braver WTs will bring a dessie. Sneaky WTs have a dessie/multiple frigs out of scan range and aligned whilst a tanked punisher warps in to get scram. If you are in a dessie, expect a boring night avoiding the dramiels that are the only opportunity likely to be offered. If you are happy with fleets then post DT is when you will get frig/dessie action Minnie v Amarr
Tony Sharp	Posted - 2010.06.16 21:40:00 - [4] Originally by: chatgris Frig fights are definitely down in minor plexes, IMO due to the dramiel being extremely OP within minor plexes. They aren't completely over, but they're definitely down. ^^ This Since Dominion FW plexing is Dramiel online even beyond minor plexes. Expect some daredevils as well and few faction frigs like comets/slicers etc. Minor plexes were the last domain of T1 frigs in lowsec, now we can safely reprocess them.
Mystic Pizza	Posted - 2010.06.16 21:46:00 - [5] Originally by: Tony Sharp Minor plexes were the last domain of T1 frigs in lowsec, now we can safely reprocess them. Reprocess frigs or the complexes LOL... Maybe Red Vs Blue is the way to go.
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.06.16 23:42:00 - [6] If you want allot of vanilla t1 hull frig solo fights I think rvb is better. If you have more money and want to fly faction frigs there will be more of it in fw. But I would add that you can sit a plex for a long time before anyone will come in it. Plexing - with the possible exception of post-downtime - is not a pvp activity. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Ralnik Mutineers	Posted - 2010.06.16 23:42:00 - [7] Originally by: chatgris Frig fights are definitely down in minor plexes, IMO due to the dramiel being extremely OP within minor plexes. They aren't completely over, but they're definitely down. This is pretty much it.. The Dramiel and even the Navy Slicer have kinda killed the minors, as both have ability to out range, just about any other T1 frig in the game and use MWD's. The Firetail and the Comet are pretty good as well which pretty much makes other T1 frigs obsolete and typically have to run off soon as a Faction frig enter the plexes.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.06.17 06:13:00 - [8] It is all faction frigates and destroyers these days, nothing vanilla left. Kestrels have gone back to their day-jobs (cyno duty!) and everything else is used as expendable tackle .. rather sad really, kind of miss the early days of the war when it was all Punishers, Rifters, Incursus' and Kestrels.
Damar Rocarion	Posted - 2010.06.17 12:05:00 - [9] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida It is all faction frigates and destroyers these days, nothing vanilla left. Kestrels have gone back to their day-jobs (cyno duty!) and everything else is used as expendable tackle .. rather sad really, kind of miss the early days of the war when it was all Punishers, Rifters, Incursus' and Kestrels. I went back thinking when was the last time I had 1 vs 1 in minor plex with vanilla t1 frig/destroyer and it was against a pirate Tristan in my Cormorant. This occurred almost 3 weeks ago. Then I started thinking and looked at killboard and indeed, this has been the only minor plex engament I had since expansion faction frigate boost which did not involve faction frigate (or someone being killed). Dramiel is the tool for all plexes. It can take any sized plex of any faction (tested) and pretty much requires you to bring more numbers, even if you have npcs on your side, if you want to do something about it. Same goes for pirate faction cruisers as Cynabal/Gila are essentially Vagabond/Ishtar that can fit into area where enemy can only bring t1 cruisers against them. This is not a whine, I fly some faction frigs myself so I am not blameless. Just observation that new guys in FW can hardly try to get out of the blob mentality when even supposedly "balanced" enviroment results them being ganked by a frigate which can easily enough solo several cruisers in the game. Damar Rocarion
Herateis	Posted - 2010.06.17 13:29:00 - [10] How to join FW while stay part of my corporation?

Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.06.17 15:25:00 - [11] Originally by: Herateis How to join FW while stay part of my corporation? Not possible. You either join the NPC militia corporation, a corporation that is in militia or manipulate/coerce/seduce your CEO to join up your current corporation.
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.06.17 15:32:00 - [12] Originally by: Ralnik Originally by: chatgris Frig fights are definitely down in minor plexes, IMO due to the dramiel being extremely OP within minor plexes. They aren't completely over, but they're definitely down. This is pretty much it.. The Dramiel and even the Navy Slicer have kinda killed the minors, as both have ability to out range, just about any other T1 frig in the game and use MWD's. ... Although I agree there are allot of faction frigates its not like they single handedly killed off the plain vanilla t1 frigs. You could always bring destroyers into any plex. No vanilla hull t1 frig is going to do well against a destroyer either. You can still get some vanilla t1 frig fights. Not as many in rvb. Its just that you will see allot of destroyers and faction frigs. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Ralnik Mutineers	Posted - 2010.06.17 16:35:00 - [13] Originally by: Cearain Although I agree there are allot of faction frigates its not like they single handedly killed off the plain vanilla t1 frigs. You could always bring destroyers into any plex. No vanilla hull t1 frig is going to do well against a destroyer either. You can still get some vanilla t1 frig fights. Not as many in rvb. Its just that you will see allot of destroyers and faction frigs. Yea, I guess Dessie's are kind of in line with the Faction hulls, but they were always a factor. It's just when Dramiels got buffed and the Faction frigs became so easily accessible, it kind of just made it a waste of time to undock a Rifter anymore. TBH, I can't even remember the last time I undocked a T1 frig and got a fight with just another T1 frig. I kinda ended up giving up on them..
Merdaneth Amarr Angel Wing.	Posted - 2010.06.17 17:00:00 - [14] The dominance of the Dramiel is an important part why I'm not in FW anymore. I either was destroyed by a Dramiel, or if it couldn't kill me, I was held down by so that a larger gang could come in and destroy me. When eight out of every ten fights involved a Dramiel at some point, I'd seen enough. Dramiels have been particularly bad for T1 frig fights, but other small ships like interceptors lost a large part of their niche too with the coming of the faction frigs, in particular the Dramiel. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.06.17 17:15:00 - [15] Edited by: Cearain on 17/06/2010 17:15:32 Originally by: Merdaneth The dominance of the Dramiel is an important part why I'm not in FW anymore. I either was destroyed by a Dramiel, or if it couldn't kill me, I was held down by so that a larger gang could come in and destroy me. When eight out of every ten fights involved a Dramiel at some point, I'd seen enough. Dramiels have been particularly bad for T1 frig fights, but other small ships like interceptors lost a large part of their niche too with the coming of the faction frigs, in particular the Dramiel. The dramiel is a good ship no doubt. Nevertheless I think the pirate ships and improved faction frigs added to the game more than it took away. You still see interceptors and AFs. They still have their roles. Not everyone wants to spend 100million on a frigate. I do think they should either let afs into minor plexes/missions or make it so only plain vanilla t1 hulls are allowed in. To my mind dessies are about as strong as regular faction frigs and ceptors. AFs are stronger than both. And pirate frigs are strongest. It doesnÆt make sense that pirate frigs are allowed in but AFs arenÆt. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.06.17 20:27:00 - [16] Originally by: Cearain It doesnÆt make sense that pirate frigs are allowed in but AFs arenÆt. Definitely. Dramiels are largely better then even the good AFs anyway. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.06.17 21:01:00 - [17] Originally by: Ralnik Originally by: Cearain Although I agree there are allot of faction frigates its not like they single handedly killed off the plain vanilla t1 frigs. You could always bring destroyers into any plex. No vanilla hull t1 frig is going to do well against a destroyer either. You can still get some vanilla t1 frig fights. Not as many in rvb. Its just that you will see allot of destroyers and faction frigs. Yea, I guess Dessie's are kind of in line with the Faction hulls, but they were always a factor. It's just when Dramiels got buffed and the Faction frigs became so easily accessible, it kind of just made it a waste of time to undock a Rifter anymore. TBH, I can't even remember the last time I undocked a T1 frig and got a fight with just another T1 frig. I kinda ended up giving up on them.. Funny I was just checking my killboard. Well I think you got one in april - you bastard. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Ralnik Mutineers	Posted - 2010.06.18 00:22:00 - [18] Edited by: Ralnik on 18/06/2010 00:27:05 Originally by: Cearain Funny I was just checking my killboard. Well I think you got one in april - you bastard. lol well granted I haven't been flying this toon much as of late, but I guess you were in-deed the last 1v1 t1 frig fight I had. Lately, the whole Amarr/Minmatar thing seems to have turned into a bunch of station camping lameness, so I've just been loggin in to update skills and PVPing on my other alt. BTW I do remember that fight, as I think we both ended in structure. I was surprised the Merlin held up that well.
Cyzlaki Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2010.06.18 19:34:00 - [19] Yes, Dramiel is terribly OP. Just look at AT8, most everyone brings at least 2, sometimes 3 drams to a match. It's not just in FW either, they're all over the place.
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.06.18 20:10:00 - [20] Originally by: Cyzlaki Yes, Dramiel is terribly OP. Just look at AT8, most everyone brings at least 2, sometimes 3 drams to a match. It's not just in FW either, they're all over the place. Except in FW, they have lots of places to fight where they only face other t1 frigates and destroyers :(

Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.06.18 20:53:00 - [21] Actually I was expecting to see more drams. I think I saw more sleipnirs drakes rooks and sabres in the tournament but I could be wrong. (Are these statistics posted anywhere?) Pirate frigates in the tournament cost the same as regular faction frigates and AFs. At 4 points they are only 1 point more than a regular frigate. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.06.18 21:06:00 - [22] Originally by: Cearain Actually I was expecting to see more drams... This is the ISD maintained statistics page. Some random numbers: Dramiel has been fielded 61 times. Hurricane has been fielded 61 times. Daredevil has been fielded 46 times. Guardian has been fielded 32 times. Hurricane makes sense, but hadn't expected the infernal to also top Rooks
Ralnik Mutineers	Posted - 2010.06.18 21:53:00 - [23] Edited by: Ralnik on 18/06/2010 21:56:42 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Cearain Actually I was expecting to see more drams... This is the ISD maintained statistics page. Some random numbers: Dramiel has been fielded 61 times. Hurricane has been fielded 61 times. Daredevil has been fielded 46 times. Guardian has been fielded 32 times. Hurricane makes sense, but hadn't expected the infernal to also top Rooks Makes sense though with Projectile Ammo buff. The last tourney also favored heavily on shield tanked set ups, due to the ability to fit lots of damage mods and the RR advantage of instant repairs. With the latest updates it makes sense that the Cane, a already popular ship, would become top dog over what I believe was the Drake in the last tourney. The difference is there is a very limited amount of BC's to choose from and even less that can be propperly shield tanked and put out high DPS. For the most part you get to pick between the Drake and the Cane or a LOL Ferox if your gang is shield tanked. Meanwhile in the frig side there are countless amounts of frigs that "could" serve the role the Drams are now serving. It's just that the Dram is much better than them all. It doesn't matter if it's T1, Faction, T2.. the Dram can kill all of the other with out much of a challenge. Frig PVP has essentially become: if you aren't in a Dram go home and get one, because the other guy is..
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.06.18 22:38:00 - [24] Excellent link Hirana thank you. They snuck more drams in then I thought. On the frigate side (so as not to totally derail the thread) it shouldn't be surprising that they have some daredevils in there too 46. Assault frigs are the same point cost as pirate frigs and not surprisingly they didn't show up much. 26 Ishkurs most popular and 6 jags 2nd most popular. This is just more evidence that letting pirate frigs in minors but not AFs is ****eyed. I am surprised by the numbers of hurricanes. I'm also surprised at Brutix survival rate 58.8%. Interesting that Destroyers only cost 2 points, all faction frigs and afs cost 4 and vanilla t1 frig costs 3. Thrashers not surprisingly the biggest at 32 followed by corms at 8. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Athena Silk State Protectorate	Posted - 2010.06.19 23:54:00 - [25] It always feels like a bit of a cop-out, but "Because of Dramiel" has become the new "Because of Falcon" when it comes to minor plexes. You usually need to bring 3 or more friends, all with webs, to catch a Dram inside a plex, and even then you usually have to get lucky when they first warp in (alts with RSB's). I don't have much problem with the 4 regular faction frigates (Slicer, Comet, Firetail and Hookbill), as they're not as good as their T2 counterparts, but letting the pirate frigates into minor plexes is just wrong. The Daredevil and especially Dramiel are better than AFs in almost every single way, and yet they can get into a minor plex, while a Hawk can't? I can remember a number of situations when it looks like we're going to get a nice small fight (less than 5v5, fairly even numbers) inside a minor plex, and it ends up not being worth it when the other side decides to bring in a couple of Dramiels.
Kruz Sanar	Posted - 2010.06.20 16:41:00 - [26] I've found that Coercers make good ships to run Dramiels off but due to only having one mid there is no way to hold it down to kill it unless he's a ridiculously stupid pilot. It's just a shame that one single frig that cause the downfall to pretty much all frig PVP. As much as I hate to do the Because of Falcon, it really has become much the same thing, when it comes to frig fights these days.
CeneUJiti	Posted - 2010.06.20 17:47:00 - [27] First. Yes you also need good skill to fly a Dramiel, not just the ISK. But. That damn thing might cost like HAC but can sure kill a HAC flied by a noob; and all T1 frigs, and most of T2 frigs if pilot has any skill (and T1 cruisers and BCs). Drami and Daredevil are monsters and would still be unreasonably powerful if they cost 300 mill or whatever. Once we get Tech III frigs its going to get even more ridiculous. Perhaps rework of lot of T1 classes (and removal of tier system) might help a bit, but that is far more work than simply nerfing the things. And yes, only nerfs CCP can do are sledgehammers, so after a certain whining threshold is reached Drami will be nerfed to ground, no balanced solution possible in EVE.
Obyrith	Posted - 2010.06.20 20:53:00 - [28] Originally by: chatgris Frig fights are definitely down in minor plexes, IMO due to the dramiel being extremely OP within minor plexes. They aren't completely over, but they're definitely down. The fact that CCP have themselves said pirate faction frigs are intended to be more powerful than T2, and yet they are allowed into minor plexes while T2 frigs or not, pretty much tells you what the problem with minor plexes in FW is. Personally I think FW would benefit from only allowing pure T1 and navy faction ships into plexes of any level.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.06.20 21:17:00 - [29] Originally by: Obyrith Unfortunately, that's the role of interceptors and AFs now: a budget alternative to the Dramiel. As accurate a description as I have seen on the topic, hat off to you Interceptors and Assaults are still around, but they are limited in numbers and are usually only brought out for specific engagements/gangs .. pirate frigs can fill nearly any role the T2 can using generic fittings so no need to reship unless it dies, that alone is a huge difference.
Donny Maurasi	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:09:00 - [30] Edited by: Donny Maurasi on 20/06/2010 22:10:26 Originally by: Obyrith Pardon my EFT, but currently a mwd'ing pilot with maxed skills in the fastest interceptor available (the Claw) goes 4017m/s, while the same pilot in a Dramiel goes 5059m/s. In other words, it goes 25% faster. That's while fitting a 6K EHP buffer tank, very decent DPS, a small neut and three light drones. Rebalancing that wouldn't even qualify as a nerf, it's completely ridiculous. Currently the Dramiel has an array of stats that would look a bit OP if they were limited to Tech III frigates. Not to mention on top of it's ability to fit tank DPS, Drones and be the fastest ship in the game, it can also fit both an AB and MWD at the same time! Anyone whom thinks that ship is even remotely balanced, is in extreme denial or just doesn't want their solo pawn mobile nerfed, because they like easy killmails.

Pamela Kamela	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:44:00 - [31] there is no point to join amarr vs minmatar anymor. minmatar tend to run away and dock as fast as they can when dont outblob you 4 to 1. they even run if u engage 2 or 3 of them solo. they sit in auga spinning their ships and wait for cptn. vagina to rally a huge blob lol.
Shigeru Potatomoto	Posted - 2010.06.21 15:02:00 - [32] It's not faction frigs or blobs, it's people who won't fight unless they're in faction frigs or blobs. I'm a pirate who flies Rifters and I see plenty of T1 vanilla frigs in plexes. Typically they do one of two things when you approach them with hostile intent: 1) Warp out (most common) there's plenty of other plexes to farm--er I mean, capture. 2) Burn away safely out of point/tackle range, kiting their aggressor through NPCs. Please understand I'm not complaining about the NPCs or even using them to your advantage, but these guys don't even point/tackle so you can't get away from the rats. Either they aren't smart enough to do that, are afraid you'll point/tackle them back, or don't have a point or tackle because they're flying PVE ft.
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.06.21 15:36:00 - [33] Originally by: Shigeru Potatomoto It's not faction frigs or blobs, it's people who won't fight unless they're in faction frigs or blobs. I'm a pirate who flies Rifters and I see plenty of T1 vanilla frigs in plexes. Typically they do one of two things when you approach them with hostile intent: 1) Warp out (most common) there's plenty of other plexes to farm--er I mean, capture. 2) Burn away safely out of point/tackle range, kiting their aggressor through NPCs. Please understand I'm not complaining about the NPCs or even using them to your advantage, but these guys don't even point/tackle so you can't get away from the rats. Either they aren't smart enough to do that, are afraid you'll point/tackle them back, or don't have a point or tackle because they're flying PVE ft. You are of course correct. Plexing in FW, due to the current mechanics, is largely a pve activity. Until CCP makes some changes to the mechanics û let militias know when, where and in what people are plexing û it will remain a pve activity. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Flashh Gorden COLD-Wing	Posted - 2010.06.21 15:51:00 - [34] Originally by: Shigeru Potatomoto It's not faction frigs or blobs, it's people who won't fight unless they're in faction frigs or blobs. I'm a pirate who flies Rifters and I see plenty of T1 vanilla frigs in plexes. Typically they do one of two things when you approach them with hostile intent: 1) Warp out (most common) there's plenty of other plexes to farm--er I mean, capture. 2) Burn away safely out of point/tackle range, kiting their aggressor through NPCs. Please understand I'm not complaining about the NPCs or even using them to your advantage, but these guys don't even point/tackle so you can't get away from the rats. Either they aren't smart enough to do that, are afraid you'll point/tackle them back, or don't have a point or tackle because they're flying PVE ft. I dont understand your logic here. Your un happy about them kiting you through the rats but when thier in a holstile plex you dont expect them to warp out but fight you and the rats at the same time?
Shigeru Potatomoto	Posted - 2010.06.21 17:26:00 - [35] Edited by: Shigeru Potatomoto on 21/06/2010 17:27:38 Not unhappy, just responding to the original topic about why there aren't more fights involving solo T1 frigate players in plexes. Now get back to your tag farming and watch that local.
Obyrith	Posted - 2010.06.21 19:49:00 - [36] Believe me, the amount of 'tag farming' that goes on in FW plexes is almost definitely zero. If people are in plexes it's either because they care about capping them or about standings rewards. Anyone who wants isk from FW is running FW missions for LP. That operates by the same principle as high-sec mission farming: blitz everything and go home.
Flashh Gorden COLD-Wing	Posted - 2010.06.22 10:12:00 - [37] Untill they block faction frigs from entering minor plexes witch is highly unlikely your not going to get much T1 frig action.
Ackwell Caldari Tiera Javelin Ltd.	Posted - 2010.06.22 12:57:00 - [38] Dramiels don't like arty fitted thrashers with tracking enhancers and tracking computers... if your enemy is going 5000m/s transversal 50km away you can place perfect hits from that range if your tracking speed is 0.1 or greater.
Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2010.06.22 20:16:00 - [39] Originally by: chatgris Frig fights are definitely down in minor plexes, IMO due to the dramiel being extremely OP within minor plexes. Not just within plexes, but in general. I will not engage a Dramiel in any other frigate at all, because I know that there's two outcomes: I die, or the Dramiel runs off. I'm not the best pilot in the world though.
1Ekrid1	Posted - 2010.06.23 02:15:00 - [40] Originally by: Shigeru Potatomoto It's not faction frigs or blobs, it's people who won't fight unless they're in faction frigs or blobs. I'm a pirate who flies Rifters and I see plenty of T1 vanilla frigs in plexes. Typically they do one of two things when you approach them with hostile intent: 1) Warp out (most common) there's plenty of other plexes to farm--er I mean, capture. 2) Burn away safely out of point/tackle range, kiting their aggressor through NPCs. Please understand I'm not complaining about the NPCs or even using them to your advantage, but these guys don't even point/tackle so you can't get away from the rats. Either they aren't smart enough to do that, are afraid you'll point/tackle them back, or don't have a point or tackle because they're flying PVE ft. just because someone doesnt have a point or web doesnt mean theyre PVE fit. where isw this fitting chauvinism coming from? There's 1, repeat 1, frigate in the T1 lineup designed to be a suicide tackler. the rest are for COMBAT. so don't tell me to tackle when I'm in a combat T1 frig. OR tell CCP to fix their mess.

ItsmeHcK1 The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.06.23 21:21:00 - [41] I see a lot of whining, but not a lot of skills... Everyone in this thread basically complains about a 100M ship being more powerful than the 200k counterpart, while killing them is really insanely easy. The only real power of the Dramiel is its speed, which usually means the ability to get out... Now throw in an Arbitrator/Vexor/Rupture or 2 webbing frigates and you've got yourself a dead Dramiel. :) And yes, I do fly 'em, lost a few of 'em and mostly still fly T1 frigates and cruisers.
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.06.23 21:24:00 - [42] Originally by: ItsmeHcK1 Now throw in an Arbitrator/Vexor/Rupture or 2 webbing frigates and you've got yourself a dead Dramiel. :) Those ships can't get into the minor complexes in fw, which what this thread was initially about.
1Ekrid1	Posted - 2010.06.27 21:35:00 - [43] Originally by: Ralnik Originally by: chatgris Frig fights are definitely down in minor plexes, IMO due to the dramiel being extremely OP within minor plexes. They aren't completely over, but they're definitely down. This is pretty much it.. The Dramiel and even the Navy Slicer have kinda killed the minors, as both have ability to out range, just about any other T1 frig in the game and use MWD's. The Firetail and the Comet are pretty good as well which pretty much makes other T1 frigs obsolete and typically have to run off soon as a Faction frig enter the plexes. we can all agree in this thread the dramiel just outdoes anything, which is why I had put in the idea to an idea thread in the idea forum that dramiels should have -10-15% straight to Afterburner and MWD speed, not only to make the dumb dual propping less OP, but to give the role of the 'ship that can fly to or get out of there fast every single time if it looks bad' back to whom it belongs; interceptors. There's 1, repeat 1, frigate in the T1 lineup designed to be a suicide tackler. the rest are for COMBAT. so don't tell me to tackle when I'm in a combat T1 frig. OR tell CCP to fix their mess.
Bourreau The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.06.28 00:11:00 - [44] Originally by: 1Ekrid1 we can all agree in this thread the dramiel just outdoes anything, which is why I had put in the idea to an idea thread in the idea forum that dramiels should have -10-15% straight to Afterburner and MWD speed, not only to make the dumb dual propping less OP, but to give the role of the 'ship that can fly to or get out of there fast every single time if it looks bad' back to whom it belongs; interceptors. Dramiel is an interceptor, and a very expensive one at that. Whoever posted about arty thrashers is 100% correct. Everything can be countered, especially when its used in a predictable way.
Athena Silk State Protectorate	Posted - 2010.06.29 02:11:00 - [45] Originally by: Bourreau Originally by: 1Ekrid1 we can all agree in this thread the dramiel just outdoes anything, which is why I had put in the idea to an idea thread in the idea forum that dramiels should have -10-15% straight to Afterburner and MWD speed, not only to make the dumb dual propping less OP, but to give the role of the 'ship that can fly to or get out of there fast every single time if it looks bad' back to whom it belongs; interceptors. Dramiel is an interceptor, and a very expensive one at that. Whoever posted about arty thrashers is 100% correct. Everything can be countered, especially when its used in a predictable way. The problem with arty thrashers is that you get ONE volley before a dual-prop Dramiel is under your guns and all up in your face. And then you die in a fire. 2 volleys, if you're REALLY lucky and the dram is a bit ******ed. And you're not punching through a 5k eHP Dramiel in one volley, I'm afraid to say.
Allbrecht Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.06.29 06:50:00 - [46] Not trying to hijack the thread, but just 2c on if you want frig fights etc: If you want to do frig fights, RvB is the way to go. I've played for a few years and gotten my feet wet in almost all aspects of the game. However, I've had the most amount of fun in RvB. As a matter of fact, I just got done doing 5 pre-arranged frig fights that started as a 10v10 and eventually scaled down to 5v5 by the last fight (I think they are still going on, but I had to log.) Having somewhat even numbered fights is so much better than flying in the dark wondering whats on the other side of the stargate. I've seen more action in RvB than my whole 0.0 career on all my characters put together. To the people who will say "lol u mst nt have pvpd much" No, staring at your character screen waiting to log back in because of a node crash does not count as pvp action. Neither does sitting on a gate for 4 hours and then moving because of an incoming blob. If you want frig fights, give RvB a fair shot. There are brand-new characters and old players too. Keep in mind too dessy/cruiser/whatever fights are also arranged if people are up for it. Apply today!
Flashh Gorden COLD-Wing	Posted - 2010.06.29 08:19:00 - [47] Getting the thread back on track. If we can agree the dremial is an expensive interceptor the problem lies with the fact it's classed as frigate and a simple T1 frig at that. If the dremial was classed as an inty it would no longer fit inside the small plexes. What determines wether a ship is classed as a frig or a ceptor? You would of thought speed but obiously it's not.
Bomberlocks Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2010.06.29 11:31:00 - [48] Originally by: Pamela Kamela there is no point to join amarr vs minmatar anymor. minmatar tend to run away and dock as fast as they can when dont outblob you 4 to 1. they even run if u engage 2 or 3 of them solo. they sit in auga spinning their ships and wait for cptn. vagina to rally a huge blob lol. The irony is that that is exactly what the Minnies say. I have yet to see any side in FW admit to using blobbing, station camping, etc, but all do. They reality of the situation is that, on all sides there are brave/confident pilots who solo against enemy FW, just that they are a minority. People fly in gangs because a) it's safer (if you're one of many, your chances of losing your internet spaceship are smaller than they would be solo) b) many FW players are fairly new to the game and it is vastly unfair to expect a new player who has the guts to pvp in a frig/dessie/cruiser to solo against pilots with far more experience and skill points, although there are some that do, and c) it's fun, because you have the company of the other people in your gang/fleet.
Bomberlocks Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2010.06.29 11:38:00 - [49] Originally by: Allbrecht Not trying to hijack the thread, but just 2c on if you want frig fights etc: If you want to do frig fights, RvB is the way to go. I've played for a few years and gotten my feet wet in almost all aspects of the game. However, I've had the most amount of fun in RvB. As a matter of fact, I just got done doing 5 pre-arranged frig fights that started as a 10v10 and eventually scaled down to 5v5 by the last fight (I think they are still going on, but I had to log.) Having somewhat even numbered fights is so much better than flying in the dark wondering whats on the other side of the stargate. I've seen more action in RvB than my whole 0.0 career on all my characters put together. To the people who will say "lol u mst nt have pvpd much" No, staring at your character screen waiting to log back in because of a node crash does not count as pvp action. Neither does sitting on a gate for 4 hours and then moving because of an incoming blob. If you want frig fights, give RvB a fair shot. There are brand-new characters and old players too. Keep in mind too dessy/cruiser/whatever fights are also arranged if people are up for it. Apply today! Although I've gotten tired of the RvB cliche, I think that I'll give it a shot with my alt, just for the hell of it.
Bourreau The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.06.30 01:22:00 - [50] RvB does sound pretty fun. In regard to not allowing faction frigates into minor plexes: what about the hookbill/comet/firetail/slicer? WHERE WILL IT ALL END?!!

Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.06.30 03:59:00 - [51] Originally by: Bourreau RvB does sound pretty fun. In regard to not allowing faction frigates into minor plexes: what about the hookbill/comet/firetail/slicer? WHERE WILL IT ALL END?!! RVB is fun and it is the best way that I know of to get the most possible frig fights in a short time. RvB has many arranged fights (although not all) whereas other pvp is completely unpredictable. FW I see as something that has the potential to be in between. The perfect medium. The fights arenÆt literally arranged but the plexes shelter you somewhat from a mob of larger ships and can keep fights pretty balanced. If the plexes were actually fought over FW would be amazing. Unfortunately, they are not so its hard to see how fw pvp really offers anything unique. As far as dramiel ruining everything for t1 frigs in complexes û I think the opposite. Yes dramiels are generally stronger than thrashers. But you canÆt fight a thrasher or other dessie in a t1 frig either û and dessies have always been allowed. If you run into a dessie or a dramiel you will usually need to have more than one t1 frig to take it down. So itÆs not like t1 frigs were ever king of minor plex pvp. The pirate ships and boost to fw frigs have livened things up a bit. Dessies are pretty boring ships that really donÆt lend themselves to much in the way interesting set ups. Option A: Put a bunch of big guns with no tank or Option B: put a bunch of little guns with some tank û that is about it when fitting a dessie. I think combat with frigates is much more fun. The minor plexes should either 1) only allow vanilla t1 frigs. This would be great for new players because I think the balance, versatility and fun of t1 figates are one of ccps many great achievements in this game. Having them alone in minor plexes would offer new players a great intro to the complexity of pvp without completely overwhelming them. Or 2)they should also allow t2 AF and interceptors in as well û because its just silly to have 100 million isk pirate frigs in there but not 20 mill t2 frigs. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Bourreau The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.06.30 06:37:00 - [52] Originally by: Cearain The minor plexes should either 1) only allow vanilla t1 frigs. This would be great for new players because I think the balance, versatility and fun of t1 figates are one of ccps many great achievements in this game. Having them alone in minor plexes would offer new players a great intro to the complexity of pvp without completely overwhelming them. Or 2)they should also allow t2 AF and interceptors in as well û because its just silly to have 100 million isk pirate frigs in there but not 20 mill t2 frigs. I agree with these points.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.06.30 06:41:00 - [53] Originally by: Cearain As far as dramiel ruining everything for t1 frigs in complexes û I think the opposite. Yes dramiels are generally stronger than thrashers. But you canÆt fight a thrasher or other dessie in a t1 frig either ..<snip>.. So itÆs not like t1 frigs were ever king of minor plex pvp. And this is why your overall understanding of FW and related mechanics fall short of just about everything. Let me tell you a story ..... Once upon a time there were very few destroyers used in minor plexes and hardly any faction frigates. You were as likely to encounter a Tristan, Inquisitor or a Condor as you are a Dramiel today .. all the hulls were in use (except for the useless probing/mining ones for obvious reasons ). Then changes started coming; First came QR. The speed-rebalance was a huge boon for frigates everywhere, combat became fast and furious with speed mods replaced by damage/tank .. life was good (RIP Webbing Punisher ). But it was not to last, second was the introduction of small rigs (APO) .. this devastated minor plexes, suddenly destroyers were able to cheaply compensate for their lower speeds, fatter sigs and general uselessness and they almost entirely supplanted the multitude of frigates. The good frigate pilot could still fight and win but the margin for error dropped to near zero. The last nail in the minor plex coffin was Dominion. With navy frigates dropping to peanut range ISK wise (FW LP Store) and pirate frigates exceeding T2 in some/most/all aspects, even destroyers lost their place. The good frigate pilot that could 50:50 a destroyer suddenly got the ability to win each and every time and the poor pilot adopted the 50:50 which is the cause of the faction frigate swarm. That is the story of the minor plex. The absolutely best time was in between Quantum Rise and Apocrypha 1.5, since then it has gone downhill and variety has taken a fatal blow. Take from that what you will. For those of us (ie. Me) who lived through the Rise and Fall of the T1 frigate the loss has been profound .. one of the rare cases where "It was better in the old days" has some truth to it
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.06.30 13:40:00 - [54] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida And this is why your overall understanding of FW and related mechanics fall short of just about everything. Well I think your post demonstrates your disconnect from the rest of eve. Posting about general changes like rigs is really beside the point. I donÆt think ccp is really going to get rid of size specific rigs because the dozen or so guys who plex think they were a big boost to destroyers. Leave the bitterness behind, and think about how fw can be improved without asking ccp to undue major changes that benefit eve in many other ways. Moreover, your claim is questionable. Rigs or no rigs when you have a destroyer versus a plain t1 frig, your better off in the destroyer. If people in fw didnÆt realize that, or didnÆt care, thatÆs good luck, but donÆt blame rigs. Bottom line: Even if ccp took away rigs and pirate and faction frigs, destroyers would still be able to chase away frigs from plexes. Your punisher would just be chased away by a thrasher instead of a dramiel. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.06.30 14:27:00 - [55] Originally by: Cearain Well I think your post demonstrates your disconnect from the rest of eve. Coming from you that is one hell of a statement. Your reply sounds like you didn't even bother to read the post I did not advocate anything, merely stated facts as to what has happened to/in minor plexes. Rigs DID change everything, dropping from several million to a hundred k overnight means you can rig everything with practically no additional cost. Destroyers with their "bigger" base stats gain comparatively more than T1 frigates .. QED. I was happily murdering Thrashers (both arty and ac) in my Punishers prior to rig changes (read: 50:50 as already stated), thank you very much. Now I have to resort to Slicers or bigger to get the job done due to EHP/Range of Dessies almost being almost doubled by rigs .. Rigs, together with the more recent faction revamp, are the reasons why minor plexes have turned into faction frigate/destroyer spam cans. The point of my opening line was an attempt to make you aware of the futility of your campaign to dumb down FW even further just so you and your ilk can gank random 'newbs' once in a while. The "fix" you are pushing in every thread does not take geographical data, population data, ship types, weapon types, SP numbers, ISK numbers or anything for that matter into consideration and does not address the issues actually plaguing FW. Some quotes to hammer in what I just said, since you will most likely skip to end "as usual": 'If you want to understand today, you have to search yesterday'. Pearl Buck. 'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins, and 'The Present is the living sum-total of the whole Past'. Thomas Carlyle. Big picture.
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.06.30 14:59:00 - [56] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida I did not advocate anything, merely stated facts as to what has happened to/in minor plexes. Rigs DID change everything, dropping from several million to a hundred k overnight means you can rig everything with practically no additional cost. Destroyers with their "bigger" base stats gain comparatively more than T1 frigates .. QED. I was happily murdering Thrashers (both arty and ac) in my Punishers prior to rig changes (read: 50:50 as already stated), thank you very much. Now I have to resort to Slicers or bigger to get the job done due to EHP/Range of Dessies almost being almost doubled by rigs .. Ok if you are not advocating anything in your post what is the point of your post? Just to give general information about the past? Yes you can learn from history - sometimes. But you have not yet explained what lesson we should learn and so it seems like you are just giving pointless information. You bemoan the rig changes and say they made destroyers overpowered in plexes. IÆll agree with that en arguendo. So what? Do you want to undue the rig changes so fw minor plexes arenÆt over powered by dessies? Do you want to undue the changes that made pirate frigs and faction frigs viable so they arenÆt ruining fw plexes? Please state the point of your posting this information. In my post I basically say the ship balances are what they are. I donÆt expect ccp to change everything for fw plexes because I recognize fw plexing is a small part of eve. I suggested that ccp should simply change the plexes to recognize the reality of how ships are now balanced. If you think the changes I suggested to plexes would ruin them explain yourself. In the meantime your mo has been that you try to shoot down every idea about fw that is not your own. When responses come back showing your concerns are unfounded you just assert only you have the experience to understand the issues and refuse to engage the points raised. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Ralnik Mutineers	Posted - 2010.06.30 16:27:00 - [57] Edited by: Ralnik on 30/06/2010 16:34:41 Edited by: Ralnik on 30/06/2010 16:28:26 Originally by: Cearain Originally by: Hirana Yoshida And this is why your overall understanding of FW and related mechanics fall short of just about everything. Well I think your post demonstrates your disconnect from the rest of eve. Posting about general changes like rigs is really beside the point. I donÆt think ccp is really going to get rid of size specific rigs because the dozen or so guys who plex think they were a big boost to destroyers. Leave the bitterness behind, and think about how fw can be improved without asking ccp to undue major changes that benefit eve in many other ways. Moreover, your claim is questionable. Rigs or no rigs when you have a destroyer versus a plain t1 frig, your better off in the destroyer. If people in fw didnÆt realize that, or didnÆt care, thatÆs good luck, but donÆt blame rigs. Bottom line: Even if ccp took away rigs and pirate and faction frigs, destroyers would still be able to chase away frigs from plexes. Your punisher would just be chased away by a thrasher instead of a dramiel. He isn't saying they need to get rid of the rigs, but rather when they were added they changed the game-play and affected frig fights in FW. Overall I'd say he's about right, my original toon started mid Q Rise and I almost instantly started PVPing and shorty later joined FW. I do remember getting a "lot" more frig fights in plexes back then and there were a lot less destroyers. Hell I think I only saw one Faction frig in that time period and it was an Evil Succubus. I attacked it in my Kessie and died horribly! (yea a kessie! when was the last time you saw a Kessie that was popping a cyno on a station) Now, I wouldn't do away with the cheap rigs, but they did change the landscape in FW. Prior to them being added I did see a lot more various frigs out roaming around. Sometime after that I started running into lots of Thrashers and Coercers in plexes and because I was more into figs I stopped fighting in them. After the faction frigs because so cheap and uber I pretty much stopped unlocking any frigs for PVP. Over all it was a few changes that ended up killing T1 frig fights in plexes and the Faction frigs were just the last nail in the coffin. Back then I was able to be competitive in FW plexes flying Rifters at around 2 months. Now with all faction frigs, noobs have little choice but to join the blos or just become easy prey for some l33t PVPer flying the latest FoTM faction frig. edit.. The rigs are really a double edge sword. Now that they are cheap, there are Tristan & Merlin fits that can easily go toe to toe with the Rifter something in the past that wasn't as likely. On the Amarr front, I'd say the Punisher got hurt more by the projectile ammo changes than Rigs when looking at T1 vs T1 non faction frigs. The punisher used to be a deadly opposition in the right hands for the Rifter despite being it was much slower. One the projectile guns got buffed the Punisher kinda lost it's place as it no longer could force the Rifter to get in close, with-in small neut range.
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.06.30 17:53:00 - [58] ralnik Although I think unrigged destroyers are more powerful than unrigged vanilla t1 frigs that discussion really doesnÆt matter. LetÆs just say, for the sake of argument, you guys are correct respecting every detail of the history. We all seem to agree itÆs unfortunate that now we don't see more vanilla t1 frigs in minor plexes. How we got here is irrelevant. Unless you want to undue the changes that got us to this unfortunate state, why bother pointing them out? Hirana posts that my view on history: "is why [CearainÆs] overall understanding of FW and related mechanics fall short of just about everything." Sorry I disagree. We can quibble about how we got here all we want but that doesnÆt really matter. LetÆs say I go see a doctor and say I slipped on water and fell down stairs and broke my leg. But then the person who drove me there says no there was no water it was oil that you slipped on before you fell down the stairs and broke your leg! Now should the detail about whether there was water or oil change the treatment the doctor recommends? This is how Hirana strays from the path of logical thought. Hirana also claims: ôThe point of my opening line was an attempt to make you aware of the futility of your campaign to dumb down FW even further just so you and your ilk can gank random 'newbs' once in a while. The "fix" you are pushing in every thread does not take geographical data, population data, ship types, weapon types, SP numbers, ISK numbers or anything for that matter into consideration and does not address the issues actually plaguing FW.ö His history may be right but he is totally illogical in the conclusions he draws from it. My proposal was simply to say we should 1) only allow regular t1 hulls in minors or 2)also allow t2 frigs in because the of the current balance of ships. Why this proposal draws that response is beyond me. If you know please tell. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Ralnik Mutineers	Posted - 2010.06.30 18:46:00 - [59] Edited by: Ralnik on 30/06/2010 18:48:33 Originally by: Cearain ralnik Although I think unrigged destroyers are more powerful than unrigged vanilla t1 frigs that discussion really doesnÆt matter. LetÆs just say, for the sake of argument, you guys are correct respecting every detail of the history. We all seem to agree itÆs unfortunate that now we don't see more vanilla t1 frigs in minor plexes. How we got here is irrelevant. Unless you want to undue the changes that got us to this unfortunate state, why bother pointing them out? Hirana posts that my view on history: "is why [CearainÆs] overall understanding of FW and related mechanics fall short of just about everything." Sorry I disagree. We can quibble about how we got here all we want but that doesnÆt really matter. LetÆs say I go see a doctor and say I slipped on water and fell down stairs and broke my leg. But then the person who drove me there says no there was no water it was oil that you slipped on before you fell down the stairs and broke your leg! Now should the detail about whether there was water or oil change the treatment the doctor recommends? This is how Hirana strays from the path of logical thought. Hirana also claims: ôThe point of my opening line was an attempt to make you aware of the futility of your campaign to dumb down FW even further just so you and your ilk can gank random 'newbs' once in a while. The "fix" you are pushing in every thread does not take geographical data, population data, ship types, weapon types, SP numbers, ISK numbers or anything for that matter into consideration and does not address the issues actually plaguing FW.ö His history may be right but he is totally illogical in the conclusions he draws from it. My proposal was simply to say we should 1) only allow regular t1 hulls in minors or 2)also allow t2 frigs in because the of the current balance of ships. Why this proposal draws that response is beyond me. If you know please tell. I think the only real question at this point, is why are the faction frigs allowed in the plexes when T2 frigs are not. T1 frigs don't have a chance against any of the Faction frigs unless the pilot is unskilled. Personally, I don't want to see T2 frigs in the plexes as I'd rather just remove the faction frigs from the minors. The reason for this is because new players today don't really stand a chance unless they blob up due to the in-ballence of some of the faction frigs. Lets not forget FW was meant to be a training grounds for new players, not just a place to farm easy noob kills. When I started, I was able to compete in the plexes with-in reason and I learned how to do solo and small gang PVP in them. Now days there is very little venue for new players to do the same, because the same fights aren't out there. They are essentially forced into blobs because they have no where they can legitimately compete now that Faction frigs have over run the plexes and T1 frig fights have become so sparse. This is the problem with the current situation and why I think at the very least faction frigs should be removed from minors. Do we want to do nothing but feed the blobs more skill-less PVPers, or do we want places that new players can seek out and actually learn how to do solo and small gang pvp?
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.06.30 19:58:00 - [60] Originally by: Ralnik Edited by: Ralnik on 30/06/2010 18:48:33 I think the only real question at this point, is why are the faction frigs allowed in the plexes when T2 frigs are not. T1 frigs don't have a chance against any of the Faction frigs unless the pilot is unskilled. The answer is to that is the same as the answer to why they allow destroyers in. Its just that they always allowed them in. Changes happened in the game at large, but fw never adapted. Take away the faction frigs and you have minor plex fighting turn into ôthrashers online.ö Personally I prefer it the way it is. ThatÆs why I say the only real question is either 1) just allow plain vanilla t1 frigs (my personal preference) or 2) allow all the frigs including t2. The second option would at least give some more variety instead of just tons thrashers. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906

Bourreau The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.06.30 23:09:00 - [61] Originally by: Cearain 2) allow all the frigs including t2. The second option would at least give some more variety instead of just tons thrashers. As an added benefit there would finally be a reason to use EAS over recon.
Flashh Gorden COLD-Wing	Posted - 2010.07.01 06:14:00 - [62] Nothing wrong with letting destroyers in a minor plex. Up untill FW Destroyers were useless. The only reason to train them was because you needed destroyer 5 for interdictors. FW gave destroyers a new lease of life finaly these ships were doing the job they were supposed too. Sadly they are outclassed by the faction frigs and the golden day of the destroyer is gone again.
Bomberlocks Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2010.07.01 09:57:00 - [63] Drams and Daredevils are a real problem (so is the Cynabel to a certain extent) in their extreme OP over just about any other frig size hull. The OPness is mainly in the speed, however, and a small nerf to that should bring them back into being still OP, but less so. 15% speed nerf should fix it. That is probably flogging a dead horse, though. CCP doesn't seem to have much contact with the game these days with their obsession with the whole PI/Dust514 thing and I don't think things will improve much anymore. Better just to train up for a DD, Dram yourself and leave the rifters for thowaway tackle.
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.07.28 12:48:00 - [64] Originally by: Flashh Gorden Nothing wrong with letting destroyers in a minor plex. Up untill FW Destroyers were useless. The only reason to train them was because you needed destroyer 5 for interdictors. FW gave destroyers a new lease of life finaly these ships were doing the job they were supposed too. Sadly they are outclassed by the faction frigs and the golden day of the destroyer is gone again. Destroyers especially the thrasher is overpowered in a minor plex. I'm not saying they are overpowered as a whole but in a minor plex they are pretty ridiculous. At least with faction and pirate faction frigates they cost some money and therefore involve some additional risk. Moreover they add some variety instead of just more thrashers! The thrashers big disadvantage is its larger sig radius. They take more damage from larger guns than frigates. However in a minor plex this is no disadvantage at all because all the guns will be smaller guns anyway. 2 t1 friates can have a decent chance bring down a dramiel. Its very unlikely they can bring down a thrasher. Thrasher has about 8-9k ehp and @250 dps. Dramiel about 5-6ehp and 150 dps. Yeah the dram is faser so it has a better chance to escape two frigates. But the thrasher has absolutely no reason to escape them. It will just blow them up. I agrees destroyers aren't great. But just allowing them in minor plexes to give them a boost is not a good idea.. I guess we could say the same thing about moas not being great, so why not let them in minors. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
X Gallentius Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.28 16:40:00 - [65] Drams and daredevils are the king of the hill. You're either dead or you're flying one of them. No conceivable way any T1 frig (or really, any other faction frig) can survive an encounter. There are counters to destroyers. 1) tracking disruptors, 2) You can kite a short range destroyer, you can get under the guns of a long range destroyer. But most importantly, 3) you can outrun a destroyer and have some ability to control range or disengage if things go bad. Destroyers win most of the time, but not all of the time. You even sometimes have a shot against a Thrasher, and almost always you can harrass them for a while for a little fun. Tracking disruptor Rifters are deadly (for example). Also under the right circumstances, a T1 frig can take an interceptor - especially if he gets in web range. Once you engage a dram or daredevil you're dead. period. They have superior firepower and enough speed to disengage even if webbed. Not fun.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.07.28 17:38:00 - [66] Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 28/07/2010 17:39:32 Originally by: X Gallentius Once you engage a dram or daredevil you're dead. period. They have superior firepower and enough speed to disengage even if webbed. Not fun. I have found (trial and error with faction is expensive ) a Slicer fit that has an even chance against Dramiel's ("even" in this case meaning 'not automatic defeat'). Currently testing a back-up fit that is not as tailor made to open up a larger target pool. Requires an absurd amount of micro-management of range/cap/heat and for the opponent to miscalculate his approach .. but nailed two yesterday, both flown by experienced pilots. They both missed their approach so overshot me giving me several volleys "for free" as they slowed down. Destroyers are very powerful but limited as you so expertly describe. The gap between them should be looked at though, Thrashers are just too damn good compared to the other three .. but still limited. -Edit- Addendum: And no I will not share the fits
Ralnik Mutineers	Posted - 2010.07.28 17:47:00 - [67] Edited by: Ralnik on 28/07/2010 17:47:51 Originally by: X Gallentius Drams and daredevils are the king of the hill. You're either dead or you're flying one of them. No conceivable way any T1 frig (or really, any other faction frig) can survive an encounter. There are counters to destroyers. 1) tracking disruptors, 2) You can kite a short range destroyer, you can get under the guns of a long range destroyer. But most importantly, 3) you can outrun a destroyer and have some ability to control range or disengage if things go bad. Destroyers win most of the time, but not all of the time. You even sometimes have a shot against a Thrasher, and almost always you can harrass them for a while for a little fun. Tracking disruptor Rifters are deadly (for example). Also under the right circumstances, a T1 frig can take an interceptor - especially if he gets in web range. Once you engage a dram or daredevil you're dead. period. They have superior firepower and enough speed to disengage even if webbed. Not fun. This is pretty much how I see it as well. Dessies are in no way OP like the Dram is as it really has no counter in minor plexes other than over powering force and then it's still not going to die but rather run away. I wouldn't however put the daredevil on the same page as the Dram, simply because while yes the DD is a powerful frig it's weakness in the fact that it "has" to commit to a fight and doesn't have the same luxury or ability to get away as a Dram does. Dessies however can almost always be countered or harassed and are not always able to flee so easily. If you bump it up into cruisers in med plexes, the Cynabal is a nasty beast and obviously Op to anything else that can show up solo. However at least in med's you can counter a Cynabal with a Arbitrators and bonused tracking disruptors. On the frig front however the only real counter in that way to a Dram is a sentinel because it's t1 variant the cruficer is just not up to par, with out a gang to support. At that point the Dram would run off because of the gang making the cruficer irrelevant. If Sentinels could get into the Minors it would at least put a check in place for the Drams and give a way to counter them. However that would just further demote T1 frigs into uselessness in plexes.
baembi	Posted - 2010.07.29 02:20:00 - [68] greetings, the best solution would be to introduce a new plex class that only allows vanilla t1 frigs. this would give the newbs a chance for some cheap and competetive pvp experience. they will get owned by deadspace fitted rifters and slaved tristans but they have a chance. i think everyone would like it. Considering all the whine about factionfrigs ...adapt or ****ing die, there are alot ways to counter them, especially thrashers are designated to get rid of the lil pimpmobiles.
Cattegirn	Posted - 2010.07.29 03:33:00 - [69] I'm curious if anyone wants to take a guess, what portion of players willing to fly frigates in fw can fly Dramiels and afford them at typical loss rates?
Sergei Le'Poof	Posted - 2010.07.29 08:13:00 - [70] I can fly them but I refuse too not because of isk but because I hate how they look like a ram's head and because I thing they are broken(OP). I bet you though that even if the looked like a flying piece of horse**** people woul still fly them because they like to fly solopwnmobiles. I guess they are compensating for something, like people with flashy expensive cars. Isk wise in FW you can make 70-100m an hour in level 4 missions (via unique lp items like navy cap booster charges, navy micro aux cores etc) so money is not really an issue. People hesitate to fly them though because they are afraid of thei kb isk ratio(lol) if they lose one. Lots of pirates fly them too and annoyingly the last two I fought escaped because they were stabbed (now how lame is that?). So: fly solo and small gangs? If you see dramiels(and angel ships in general) just refuse to engage them, run or blob the hell out of them if possible.

Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.07.29 10:12:00 - [71] Nah, most ppl refuse to fly them because most of your targets will just dont fight you /or fit especially to counter you/. Also these ships have unbelievable gtfo ability, so if you die, everyone knows YOU ****ed up as pilot. Tbh i think they shouldnt be able to get into minor plexes but whatever. Daredevil? Its do or die so no one really thinks its THAT good /but yes, properly fitted it can probably kill every frig in game/.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.07.29 11:16:00 - [72] Originally by: Cattegirn I'm curious if anyone wants to take a guess, what portion of players willing to fly frigates in fw can fly Dramiels and afford them at typical loss rates? When it comes to "typical loss rates" then the Dramiel is in a league of its own, they are only ever lost due to pilot error or faulty intel so anyone who can afford the down-payment can afford to fly them. As for willingness to fly frigates .. as far as I am concerned it is the primary reason for being in FW, there is no other place in Eve where specialising in lights in the same way is viable. Frigates and cruisers are quite simply more fun (and challenging) to PvP in as damage/EHP/slot ratio is the best in Eve thus making pilot actions deciding factors rather than FoTM modules/fittings/ships. Daredevils are still a rarity so I can not in good conscience make any judgements regarding their power. I do fear them though, mostly because of the 100% range/speed control they possess with the god-webs but also because they actually work pretty damn well with more than one fit so one can never know what is coming
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.08.02 21:06:00 - [73] You don't see more people flying drams because they aren't op for the price. Frigates wonÆt engage unless they are caught. If you run into 2 of anything you will likely not be able to fight. People understand their strengths now so your not going to get a bunch of free kills. For minor plexes the Thrasher has about 25% more dps and ehp than a dram. I agree a tracking disruptor could be helpful. But keep in mind they do get a bonus for tracking and itÆs probably less than 10% of frigate fits have a tracking disruptor. If I am with 2 t1 frigs I will go ahead and try to kill a dram. If they both have webs there is a good chance we can kill it. Would I engage a thrasher? Probably not why bother? Most likely result is we will both end up dead and even if we kill it û its just a about 17 mill ship. If I am in a dram would I engage a thrasher? Probably not. Would I engage a dram if I'm in a thrasher? sure. I know of at least 1 t1 hull that can fight off a dram. It can't kill one but it can fight one off. No t1 hull that I know of would have a chance of fighting off a thrasher on 1v1 unless the thrasher screws up û like has arties and lets an ab scram frig get in close orbit. I admit I wouldnÆt really care if eve did away with destroyers altogether. They are basically built as an relatively unimaginative way to gank frigates. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.02 21:52:00 - [74] Originally by: Cearain No t1 hull that I know of would have a chance of fighting off a thrasher on 1v1 unless the thrasher screws up û like has arties and lets an ab scram frig get in close orbit. You are completely wrong on that part - destroyers have a disadvantage: they are slow. If I catch it, I have a chance in a t1 frigate. Unlike a dramiel which can disengage at will. Some non-arty kills to back up my claim... http://gallente.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=6721682 http://gallente.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=6551139 http://gallente.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=5121026 etc... Whenever I see a destroyer in my rifter - I go for it. Whenever I see a dram, there's no point. It's faster than me, tanks better than me, ganks better than me. At least destroyers have a tradeoff (albeit minor) against t1 frigates.
Khai'ne State Protectorate	Posted - 2010.08.02 22:11:00 - [75] I joined FW recently to get my Caldari standings up, so I was just intending to plex in my Merlin and not look for any fights. However in just a few hours of active play I've had a couple of good ones,running from Dramiels and Thrashers but apart from that, just engaging anything despite knowing I'll probably lose. It's been good fun for me, so I'd say give it a go.
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.08.02 23:47:00 - [76] Chat Nice kills especially the first one. The second one should train for t2 guns or at least use some sort of named guns. You killed him by doing 223 in damage. That must be a killmail error or he was very unskilled. I never even check to see how much damage regular t1 guns do. The third kill was actually a corm not a thrasher - a rail corm at that. Let me ask on the thrashers do you just try to get in a tight orbit? Did you have a tracking disruptor or a web? Any faction implants or boosters? -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.03 00:16:00 - [77] Originally by: Cearain Chat Nice kills especially the first one. The second one should train for t2 guns or at least use some sort of named guns. You killed him by doing 223 in damage. That must be a killmail error or he was very unskilled. I never even check to see how much damage regular t1 guns do. The third kill was actually a corm not a thrasher - a rail corm at that. Sorry about the corm (though I actually fear the 75mm rail corm just as much if not more than the ac thrasher when I'm in a rifter). Here's another non-arty-thrasher km to make up for it :) http://gallente.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=4136759 I've got a LOT more that have the useless gallente npc's from a plex on there with 0 damage - they were practically solo kills. It's been a long time, but I'm quite certain those km's with low damage are bugged. Quote: Let me ask on the thrashers do you just try to get in a tight orbit? Did you have a tracking disruptor or a web? Any faction implants or boosters? My rifter losses and fits can be seen in great detail here: http://gallente.eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=324379&view=losses&scl_id=4 I'm a big fan of the TD, and my orbit depends on the targets configuration when I'm fighting a thrasher. Are they MWD fit? Turn off the with a scram, get in close overheat the ab, tracking speed disruption and lots of overheating. Are they AB fit? Kite at range (since I would have trouble keeping the transversal high enough otherwise) use an optimal range script, wear them down. I'm not saying a rifter vs a dessie is a guaranteed win - but I've won a lot more rifter vs dessie fights than I've lost. I usually try to come to a fight at a slight disadvantage (smaller ship class, fewer numbers). You get more fights that way :) (This is also a reason I've flat out refused to fly the dramiel or daredevil. They are so overpowered, most people will just run from you). Anyways - feel free to sift through my kills and losses against dessies on my kb. I think you'll find that destroyers aren't the i-win button you thought they were. At least not solo (a minor plex full of arty thrashers at range is a completely different scenario).
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.08.03 01:08:00 - [78] Thanks for the tips. I will freely admit I can see you are a better pilot than I am. I can not really figure out all the tracking information from looking at eft. How close of an orbit can I keep? What does that mean if I have a tracking disruptor? etc. That can only be learned by practice. I am really just learning some of the basics right now at least when it comes to piloting on the fly. I see a ton of destroyers and I may steal your fit. I see you switched to the ambits instead of tracking rigs. Were the tracking rigs really helpful? I never thought to put one a rifter because I figured if I was having problems hitting, then my enemy was having 2x as many problems. The corm I would think is normally going to have a mwd if it is rail fit which means you are going to have trouble closing in. Against destroyers you don't get allot of time to figure out what you need to do. If I were to pick something that I would try against a dessie it would be something like your fit. But I really doubted it would work in practice. Against the mwd destroyers how can you close the distance? They are faster than you arenÆt they? Do you keep the range or the tracking script in when you are trying to close? Do you use barrage as you are trying to close or do you just keep the faction ammo in until you can close in for the faster kill? Thanks for the info. I realize that your not guaranteeing kills against destroyers with t1 but I see so many and I usually just run. I may try your fit and see if I can kill a few. Yeah I know it will be ugly. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.03 01:35:00 - [79] Originally by: Cearain Thanks for the tips. I will freely admit I can see you are a better pilot than I am. I can not really figure out all the tracking information from looking at eft. How close of an orbit can I keep? What does that mean if I have a tracking disruptor? etc. That can only be learned by practice. I am really just learning some of the basics right now at least when it comes to piloting on the fly. As close as you can! Skills help a LOT. Max out your nav and agility skills (Don't forget spaceship command to 5!). That will help you keep a tighter orbit. The 3% agility implant is a good deal, only runs a few mill. Agility agility agility. Your signature radius also affect guns tracking you - IIRC (don't have time to check evehq) 200mm ac's have a signature resolution of 40, and a rifter has a sig of 35. You can plug away with formulas here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Falloff Originally by: Cearain I see a ton of destroyers and I may steal your fit. I see you switched to the ambits instead of tracking rigs. Were the tracking rigs really helpful? I never thought to put one a rifter because I figured if I was having problems hitting, then my enemy was having 2x as many problems. I think you're reading that backwards - I recently switch to tracking rigs over ambits. Ambits give you more options to kite your target, but in my experience when I was overheated in at 500m, my guns would miss sometimes. Tracking rigs helped to mitigate that. They also help when tackling ships with drones - the tracking rigs have noticeably improved my ability to shoot down light drones without a web. Originally by: Cearain The corm I would think is normally going to have a mwd if it is rail fit which means you are going to have trouble closing in. Against destroyers you don't get allot of time to figure out what you need to do. If I were to pick something that I would try against a dessie it would be something like your fit. But I really doubted it would work in practice. Against the mwd destroyers how can you close the distance? They are faster than you arenÆt they? Do you keep the range or the tracking script in when you are trying to close? Do you use barrage as you are trying to close or do you just keep the faction ammo in until you can close in for the faster kill? Agility is key. First off, put an optimal range script on your td and make the dessie come closer. Burn away from the dessie, and then do an about turn to intersect it's orbit and at the same time overheat your AB (need to time this so you turn around as your AB starts a new cycle). Overheat your scram as well, and there is a good chance you can land a scram since a MWD dessie has a much worse agility than a frigate. (Back to dessies having some disadvantages vs a frigate). You will take some hard knocks on the close approach, but if it's long range fit you can usually rep that up easily once you're under the guns. Originally by: Cearain Thanks for the info. I realize that your not guaranteeing kills against destroyers with t1 but I see so many and I usually just run. I may try your fit and see if I can kill a few. Yeah I know it will be ugly. Knowing what your opponent flies is key - I often look up the killboard of my opponent before engaging so I have an idea of what kind of dessie they like to fly. Some general tactics - vs close range fit dessies - burn in, orbit 500, overheat AB/SAR and NOS. You need the rep and cap - I only recommend overheating the guns around peak shield recharge vs the MSE thrasher, otherwise you want the to get that NOS going and giving you precious cap in my experience. vs range fit dessies with a prop mod - this is tough. Optimal range td + range to start with, burn away and try to time an overheat cycle of the AB with a loop around and hope that your agility with a good intersect path will allow you to land a scram on the dessie. (cont)
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.03 01:41:00 - [80] Edited by: chatgris on 03/08/2010 01:44:42 vs range fit dessie without a prop mod (these are actually quite popular) - start with a tracking speed script in your td, and burn in at an angle overheating the AB ofc. One final note when fighting dessies - Always keep your AB and td running. Even if that means not repairing your armor. If your td or AB goes down - you're dead in a few seconds. Remember, the only thing you have over destroyers is superior agility, speed and the td. If they turn off - you will NOT win any tank vs gank games even if you can keep your repper going. All this takes lots of practice to get down.. I lost many a rifter to dessies before I got the tactics worked out. Unfortunately - there's a lot less frigate combat to be had nowadays due to the dramiel/daredevil. People used to feel like they were the king of the hill in a dessie in a minor, and you could often get a good fight going in with a rifter. Now, those same people tend to fly dramiels/daredevils and they chase all the other t1 frigs away. But I wish you the best of luck finding those fights! EDIT: One more thing - you can only look up your opponent maybe 25% of the time - often you need to decide then and there what to do. Always, ALWAYS have your combat log open. After he's taken one shot at you, your combat log will tell you what kind of gun he shot you with. There's also some voodoo with looking at ships and identifying what type of turret they have on. I haven't had the patience to work that one out yet.

Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.08.04 17:46:00 - [81] Thanks for the tips I may give that fit a try and do some dessie hunting. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906


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