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NEXUS BANE
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Posted - 2010.06.22 00:33:00 -
[1]
I thought the Guardian was the armor logistics ship that was best used in pairs and the oneiros was for a solo setup. In the tourney I saw both being used. Is there an advantage to one or the other, or is it just personal preference?
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Shereza
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Posted - 2010.06.22 06:38:00 -
[2]
Oneiros has more utility while the guardian does the main job better. For personal preference it boils down to this. Do you want to buff others while you rep. them and maybe annoy targets with an extra 25m3 of drones or do you want to remote rep. armor and capacitor as part of a spider tank nightmare?
As I understand it most people will choose the latter almost every time. Personally, I found that the oneiros does well enough if the people you're using it against are a bit stupid. Of course that could be said about many ships so it's not the best perk for a ship.
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Grut
The Protei
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Posted - 2010.06.22 06:59:00 -
[3]
The -1 low on an oneiros makes it abit meh compared to a guardian if you want to armourtank, and shieldtanking when your gangs armour doesn't seem to clever.
You can also remote transfer cap to get a guardian running 5-6 reps.
Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know...
Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.06.22 07:53:00 -
[4]
The Guardian does the job better if it has a cap transfer buddy, which pretty much any ship can be (and the cap transfer in and of itself is more universally useful than tracking links).
The Oneiros does the job better if you want the logistics ship to be completely independent.
Pick one according to your preferred tactics and planning. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Darth Felin
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Posted - 2010.06.22 09:05:00 -
[5]
Originally by: NEXUS BANE I thought the Guardian was the armor logistics ship that was best used in pairs and the oneiros was for a solo setup. In the tourney I saw both being used. Is there an advantage to one or the other, or is it just personal preference?
Oneiros - solo, and Guardian for dual+ setups.
There were short fights in the tourney and many logistics relied on the cap boosters for cap so guardian was a viable choice for it. Also it sometimes depend on available pilots. Oneiros is not popular as most of gallente t2 cruisers so it is sometimes hard to find a perfect logistics pilot with gallente cruiser 5
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Land0 CaIrissian
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.06.22 15:31:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Darth Felin Oneiros - solo, and Guardian for dual+ setups.
For the most part, this. Though, in large fleets I find it's good to have a mix of both. Enemy FCs will often try to break the cap chain of Guardians to gain a quick upper hand. A few Oneiros' mixed into your logi setup will help to diffuse that impact.
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Aristrat
Amarr SRBI Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.06.22 17:00:00 -
[7]
Although some ppl will disagree, the fact is guardian is much better in practically all situations.
It's also superior to basilisk in every way, except if you insist on shield tanking, which is ofc inferior to armor tanking
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Zilberfrid
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Posted - 2010.06.22 17:28:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Aristrat Although some ppl will disagree, the fact is guardian is much better in practically all situations.
It's also superior to basilisk in every way, except if you insist on shield tanking, which is ofc inferior to armor tanking
What were you planning to do with a basi if not shield boosting?
And I disagree, the oneiros can support a small gang much better then a single guardian would ------------------------------------- I like to fly around and shoot stuff. |
Aeternus IV
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Posted - 2010.06.22 18:08:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Aeternus IV on 22/06/2010 18:08:23
Originally by: Zilberfrid
Originally by: Aristrat Although some ppl will disagree, the fact is guardian is much better in practically all situations.
It's also superior to basilisk in every way, except if you insist on shield tanking, which is ofc inferior to armor tanking
What were you planning to do with a basi if not shield boosting?
And I disagree, the oneiros can support a small gang much better then a single guardian would
A solo Onerios can support a small gang more easily, not better, than a sinle guardian. Throw a cap booster or have someone with cap transfer on your team, however, and that statement is incorrect.
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Land0 CaIrissian
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.06.22 18:21:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Aeternus IV A solo Onerios can support a small gang more easily, not better, than a sinle guardian. Throw a cap booster or have someone with cap transfer on your team, however, and that statement is incorrect.
I'd argue that your statement supports the Oneiros as the superior solo logi ship. Relying on a cap transfer from some member of your gang hurts the Guardian because it's stuck at someone's hip. Of course, different situations call for different ships, but in general, I think the Oneiros is better for solo work.
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Aristrat
Amarr SRBI Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.06.22 19:00:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Aristrat on 22/06/2010 19:03:36
Originally by: Zilberfrid
Originally by: Aristrat Although some ppl will disagree, the fact is guardian is much better in practically all situations.
It's also superior to basilisk in every way, except if you insist on shield tanking, which is ofc inferior to armor tanking
What were you planning to do with a basi if not shield boosting?
And I disagree, the oneiros can support a small gang much better then a single guardian would
You misunderstood my point. Of course you will use basilisk for shield tanking and guardian for armor tanking. I said that guardian is superior ship in their respective roles. It has approximately 3x better tank, more cap/stability > better rep and it looks better. You cannot fit cap booster to basilisk without totally screw its tank. And armor tank by default is superior to shield tank.
Now, about oneiros solo myth. It has again worse tank than guardian (-40%), less cap and the most important for its role, no cap transfer and less reping power. +3 pretty much useless med slots (good only for ECCM), so how it is better solo log ship than guardian?
You know, guardian can fit cap booster too
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.06.22 19:06:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Aristrat less cap and the most important for its role, no cap transfer and less reping power. +3 pretty much useless med slots (good only for ECCM), so how it is better solo log ship than guardian?
You know, guardian can fit cap booster too
ābecause you don't need a cap booster or cap transfers for the Oneiros other than as neut protection. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Aristrat
Amarr SRBI Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.06.22 19:34:00 -
[13]
Neut protection in PvP - the best protection
Cap booster is kinda mandatory even with multiple guardians on field. Also, turn off few reps on guardian, just to make it as "efficient" in armor reping as oneiros and you don't have to burn your cap boosters anymore. Seriously, in real fight, if no1 is neuting you, even solo guardian not using boosters is pretty much cap stable. Those reps are not on all the time. Not all of them... I went through very intensive and long fights with only half of cap boosters spent in my cargo hold. After fight just loot the field.
And if someone is neuting you, then all those cap rechargers on oneiros without cap booster want make any difference, so because of them oneiros for sure is not better solo logistic ship than guardian.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.06.22 19:39:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Aristrat Neut protection in PvP - the best protection
ābut it's not required just to run normally. So it's better solo, which was the entire point.
Quote: Cap booster is kinda mandatory even with multiple guardians on field. Also, turn off few reps on guardian, just to make it as "efficient" in armor reping as oneiros and you don't have to burn your cap boosters anymore.
If you turn off "a few" (as in more than one) you are either a) now repping less than the oneiros or b) not fitting cap transfers, so you've pretty much wasted half the point of having the ship.
Quote: And if someone is neuting you, then all those cap rechargers on oneiros without cap booster want make any difference, so because of them oneiros for sure is not better solo logistic ship than guardian.
Like I said: as neut protection, not without a cap booster. Of course you fit one, should the enemy be mean and nasty towards you, but you don't need it to run all 4 reps at full tilt. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Arllen Axad
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Posted - 2010.06.22 19:58:00 -
[15]
I come down on the side of the Oneiros. While the guardian may be superior in the middle of a RR blob, the Oneiros is inherently better in most ways. It's drones (people who fit damage drones on an Oneiros are doing it wrong) when fully skilled rep as much as 5x heavy t2 armor maintenance bots. But they are fast, perfect for repping support ships without switching out your main reps.
I do not usually run 4x reps on the Oneiros, and some would argue this makes it less efficient. But in the words of a previous poster "I'm not running all the reps all the time anyway". Also, it allows the fielding of a heavier tank.
I won't get into how exactly I use the Oneiros mainly, but "surprise support" sums it up pretty nicely. It's not a ship that you want to be in a vulnerable position on the field, and if you play it in it's role (much closer to a scimitar than a guardian) you'll find the tank hardly gets any use.
Now all of these points don't mention what to me is the game-breaker. Tracking Links.
I hear you laughing, but you should never underestimate the value of having a harb hitting out to 50k with scorch, or helping your blaster teammates get past some tracking disruption. Tracking links are never really used, but with the bonuses, can actually have impressive results on the Oneiros.
Best thing about using this ship in it's intended role? Never showing up on any killmails. All those logistics ships with warrior II's or a laser for whoring are target painting themselves for potential enemies.
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Valea Silpha
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.06.22 20:52:00 -
[16]
The Oneiros sucks.
Im sorry guy above, but its true.
Yes, it can be used like a scimmi, but its a lot slower, and armor reps really aren't very good for non-buffer ships. Also, being forced to shield tank blows too, since plural oneiri cannot spider to each other while being cap stable.
I would suggest that although you might not be running all your reps all the time, the time that you REALLY matter in a fight is when you need to run all your reps for a protracted period, and certainly longer than cap boosters can let you run.
THe guardian ROCKS for armor balls. The basi, for shield balls. The scimmi for HACs and BC shield gangs. The oneiros is all the downsides of a scimmi (lower rep power), and the worst aspects of armor reps(doesn't hit to the end of a cycle) while not being able to tank the same as the gang its supporting.
You can claim all you like that you should never need to tank, but that is total bull****. You have to assume that an opponent FC has the ability to primary any logistics ships on the field, and that they can hit out to that range.
Sure, there are some blowful pvpers out there, but if you don't assume an equal amount of skill you will get alphaed.
Even what appears to be a short range gang can quickly go after an errant logistics if it is causing them problems. Scorch, barrage and sentry drones all kick out far enough to shaft you, and without a buddy logistics and good resists on the repaired tank (ie NOT shield for an oneiros) you'll pop, and then you aren't achieving anything.
Yes the Oneiros can get credible EHP from shields, but with only 2k of armor and base resists, other armor ships will go like butter.
Be a man, pick the right logistics. Unless you are a) the only logistics pilots, and b) unlikely to actually be in a real fight, then the oneiros is not the right choice. And tbh, if you aren't going to be in a fight, you don't need a logi anyway.
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Pokechan333
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Posted - 2010.06.22 21:24:00 -
[17]
Notice how logistic ships get jammed immediately once they're seen during the fight? Oneiros has a lot of free mids, so with 2 ECCMs you get 71.9. I don't think a falcon, BB, or scorp is gonna put all of their jammers on you if there are other logistics on the field. Plus you can fit a SEBO to lock faster.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.06.22 22:25:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Grut The -1 low on an oneiros makes it abit meh compared to a guardian if you want to armourtank, and shieldtanking when your gangs armour doesn't seem to clever.
You can also remote transfer cap to get a guardian running 5-6 reps.
Don't see why not - if you're the only logistics, what matter how you're tanking? If you're not the only logistics, then the Guardian is far and away the better choice.
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.06.23 00:07:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Pokechan333 Notice how logistic ships get jammed immediately once they're seen during the fight? Oneiros has a lot of free mids, so with 2 ECCMs you get 71.9. I don't think a falcon, BB, or scorp is gonna put all of their jammers on you if there are other logistics on the field. Plus you can fit a SEBO to lock faster.
If its that much of a concern the gaurdian still has room for a Sensor Backup array in the lows while not sacrificing much tank. With an overheated ECCM you can hit 60.5 sensor str. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Mr Peanut420
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.23 01:35:00 -
[20]
Onieros isn't all that bad if you have logi V. I have a fit that is independantly cap stable (ab on), 1600mm plate (31k ehp), 3 large reps, 1 medium rep (50+ km range hasn't been an issue yet), and eccm. Factoring in medium drones it reps more than a 4 large rep, 5 light armor drone guardian. Pretty much the only thing I sacrifice is a little ehp. Its worth it not having to deal with the cap chain and having 2 more free targets.
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