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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.07.04 12:30:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: SirRalph
Fail! 
What is it with people's inability to actually read a thread. I mean damn son, just how stupid do you have to be. Honestly, is there anything more moronic than someone trying to score that zinger yet not taking the moments to avoid being moronic? Yes, SirRalph, I fail. I hope this admission on my part empowers you, strengthens you, and validates you. While it may seem that I'm hostile to you I truly wish better things for you and hope that my blessings and prayers start the healing process you so desperately need.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
mental maverick
Duty.
Duty. Private Security
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Posted - 2010.07.04 14:17:00 -
[32]
Just so i get this right Shar, you are of the opinion that stocking up before NPC orders were removed was an exploit?
If that is the case, i'm of a different opinion and yes i do consider myself in the posession of some "integrity". Its part of market speculation and have always existed during launches of new content and/or changes to the game. I fail to see anything wrong with it.
POS repsocessing is a whole other matter but still, mostly CCPs own fault for being stupider than normal.
I am however a bit cranky over CCPs decision to leave the NPC orders up after the initial release since that made the profit possibilities so blatantly obvious that every market grunt in EVE jumped on it and, not necesserely making my profits smaller, but definetly prolonging the time to cash in.
And also CCPs ignorance of the investment capabalities of the market community. Look at the Forge market 7th of June especially and a few days before and after. Dont think CCP intended stocks to be in the 1-2 year size as it is with Guidance systems atm.
Did my best in the PIpocalypse now thread to stir up the "PI is broken, remove NPC orders NOW!!!" together with a lot of other folks but alas, my forum foo wasnt strong enough to have any impact whatsoever  (should be noted i was a forum virgin at the time so expectations werent great)
PS. sry about the bad english and spelling, cba to do anything about it
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.07.04 15:13:00 -
[33]
Originally by: mental maverick
Just so i get this right Shar, you are of the opinion that stocking up before NPC orders were removed was an exploit?
Before I even answer this part can we both accept that I only make judgments directed at myself? So even if I think it is an exploit or cheat - that determination is only for me and for my own behavior? It's one thing to express my own opinion and engage in conversation, its another to waste my time explaining to people "If the shoe fits... ..."
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
mental maverick
Duty.
Duty. Private Security
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Posted - 2010.07.04 16:13:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: mental maverick
Just so i get this right Shar, you are of the opinion that stocking up before NPC orders were removed was an exploit?
Before I even answer this part can we both accept that I only make judgments directed at myself? So even if I think it is an exploit or cheat - that determination is only for me and for my own behavior? It's one thing to express my own opinion and engage in conversation, its another to waste my time explaining to people "If the shoe fits... ..."
I know what you mean but opinions can still be discussed and different opinions tend to lead towards more interesting discussions, don't you think?
And I probably would have agreed with you on the speculation part being an exploit had this been a game other than EVE, where I feel the nature of the game leans toward the bigger fish eats the smaller and the rich become richer and all that bullcrap...
Still there has to be some limits and no matter how much we discuss it, in the end its up to CCP to determine what technically is an exploit and not. That doesn't stop players from acting after their own beliefs and what they feel would harm their own integrity.
I for example, within the boundaries of my own moral framework, did not think if this as an exploit. In part due to me spending a lot of time on SISI doing research and also invested in NPC goods before Tyrannis was released, thus using the tools CCP has provided to anticipate where the game is heading before the changes goes live on TQ.
In part because I was afraid that the statement about not removing NPC orders directly might be a ruse to keep ppl from stockpiling and in part to cater to my own sense of moral that that is the way it should be done, screwed up as that may seem to some
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Vilgan Mazran
Aperture Harmonics
K162
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Posted - 2010.07.04 17:51:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Vilgan Mazran on 04/07/2010 17:55:19
~25 Bil in the reproc thing. That includes all the BPOs I purchased to get everything into construction though. So far I've recouped 30 Bil of that, and expect to recoup ~60 Bil total (assuming 20% loss on BPOs). Some items will take a LONG time to sell though, so it was nice but not omg end of the world awesome. Also a few extra BPOs because I wanted the towers to come out at the 21 day mark. It seemed like a crash in prices was possible at the 30 day mark from all the towers that'd be coming out together.
~30 Bil into NPC Goods. In retrospect, I wish I'd bought more quantity of fewer items. I expected the obvious gainers like silicate glass/guidance systems/etc to take forever to gain in price due to everyone buying them. I also expected to have to turn most of it into P4 and produce off of it if I didn't want to wait 9 months to sell things. Both of these expectations were incorrect, but I still made out pretty well. Thus far I've liquidated for ~60 Bil and still have 10 million guidance systems, 1 mil other P3, and about and ~25 mil P2 remaining. Assuming a conservative (imo) outlook of 8k for the guidance systems, 20k for the other P4, and 2.2k for the P2s (most already higher than that), it equates to ~155 Bil in remaining stock value. Oh ya, 1 mil nanite repair paste so I guess that'd be around 165B remaining.
All told, ~90B made thus far off of a 55B investment and between 100B and 250B in remaining stock depending on valuation. I personally don't plan on liquidating guidance systems for a year or so so I guess we'll see how far up by then. I'd personally anticipate 15-20k/unit with other P4s being 30-60k.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.07.04 18:17:00 -
[36]
Quote:
My apologies if you thought I meant that -I- am unique. I meant it that I share, with others, a very unique point of view
No, I meant your very unique point of view is not unique(ly supported by you). You are not alone (take it as you prefer).
What is quite sad, in fact this world of ours would seriously need some millions of people with some principles and not for them to be suffocated by the billions of mediocre opportunity mongers at all costs who think they are smart.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Kieselguhr Kid
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Posted - 2010.07.04 19:13:00 -
[37]
Based off market history in the Forge/Citadel/Lonetrek triangle, Goonswarm (the corp itself and our 10-15 biggest investors combined) believes we have roughly 20% of all guidance systems and silicate glass stockpiled before Tyrannis, along with smatterings of every other NPC item. We also made several hundred billion off lustering and other drone compounds when they were rebalanced, as well as a couple of hundred billion more off 1/3 price outposts and 1/5 price POS.
Depending on price points, our biggest individual investor will make around 1 to 2 trillion isk off Tyrannis. Somewhere around a few dozen of us will make at least 100b.
<3 CCP
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mental maverick
Duty.
Duty. Private Security
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Posted - 2010.07.04 19:20:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Kieselguhr Kid
Based off market history in the Forge/Citadel/Lonetrek triangle, Goonswarm (the corp itself and our 10-15 biggest investors combined) believes we have roughly 20% of all guidance systems and silicate glass stockpiled before Tyrannis, along with smatterings of every other NPC item. We also made several hundred billion off lustering and other drone compounds when they were rebalanced, as well as a couple of hundred billion more off 1/3 price outposts and 1/5 price POS.
Depending on price points, our biggest individual investor will make around 1 to 2 trillion isk off Tyrannis. Somewhere around a few dozen of us will make at least 100b.
<3 CCP
So you were the guys that made the spike on June 7th in the Forge eh? 
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Norah Sin
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Posted - 2010.07.04 19:20:00 -
[39]
I really find odd what happens with market dinamics with each expansion. The driving forces of a major market change should be in game events, as major wars or plain market speculation, not out of game changes. This goes beyond metagaming, and I find it just wrong on the part of CCP, when it could be avoided taking actions before announcing details of new expansion. My 2 cents.
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porth0s
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Posted - 2010.07.04 19:40:00 -
[40]
I hope this thread is misleading and everyone who didn't make much isn't posting!
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Thawed Corpse
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Posted - 2010.07.04 20:49:00 -
[41]
I'm all in, baby!
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Menkaure
Amarr
LEM0N
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Posted - 2010.07.04 21:53:00 -
[42]
Went on holiday for a few weeks, got in late, made about 2b to date.
Wish I was at home, could of made a ****load more.
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Vasaczk
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Posted - 2010.07.04 22:20:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Before I even answer this part can we both accept that I only make judgments directed at myself? So even if I think it is an exploit or cheat - that determination is only for me and for my own behavior?
It's one thing to express my own opinion and engage in conversation, its another to waste my time explaining to people "If the shoe fits... ..."
Heh, methinks you listen to too much Tool.
Having said that though, I admire your integrity. I don't know if I will try and maintain my own within the Eve universe yet, as I am new, but I do appreciate your style...
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Kypud
Zeus Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.07.05 11:14:00 -
[44]
Investment into NPC goods etc: zero
Its not how I want to play the game.
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mental maverick
Duty.
Duty. Private Security
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Posted - 2010.07.05 13:48:00 -
[45]
I hope for the sake of peoples integrity that those that are against the NPC goods investment wasn't aboard the Technetium train because i totally fail to see the difference.
Only difference is that you didnt need to know before hand by going on SISI because the NPC orders were still up on TQ after the changes were made.
I'm starting to get more inclined to believe that the people *****ing about exploit and integrity breaches are just mad because they missed the oppurtunity.
Anybody willing to step up to the confession booth? 
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flakeys
DRAMA Inc
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Posted - 2010.07.05 14:23:00 -
[46]
Originally by: mental maverick
I hope for the sake of peoples integrity that those that are against the NPC goods investment wasn't aboard the Technetium train because i totally fail to see the difference.
Only difference is that you didnt need to know before hand by going on SISI because the NPC orders were still up on TQ after the changes were made.
I'm starting to get more inclined to believe that the people *****ing about exploit and integrity breaches are just mad because they missed the oppurtunity.
Anybody willing to step up to the confession booth?
A lot of those players where allready moaning about it when it was still profitable to take advantage of it so in that sence i feel you are wrong in your assumptions.
Speaking for myself , nope didn't do technetium and nope didn't do npc goods for my own reasons however i never felt the need for CCP to punish those that did.In the end CCP is the one to blame not the playerbase who uses what is handed to them.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.07.05 14:24:00 -
[47]
Originally by: mental maverick
I'm starting to get more inclined to believe that the people *****ing about exploit and integrity breaches are just mad because they missed the oppurtunity.
Like I've said before, I've been playing eve more years than some of you months. I've always said what I mean. So either I'm the most consistent liar any of you will ever meet or I'm actually telling the truth. The difference, to me, is clear but I'll share some personal actions that I think demonstrates what I mean: 1 - RDIR IPO This IPO was a pre-patch T2 component speculation IPO started a few months before the Revelation Upgrade/Add-on. Benvie ran the predictive side of the business while I simply managed his orders and the money. 2 - Astronautic Engineering Pre-patch market speculation I did when that skillbook was being removed from NPC sell orders. In the case of Astronautic Engineering (similar to NPC/PI goods) the product was being removed from the market. With RDIR, no product was being removed from the market. Profiting from planning forward about changing demands or supplies that everyone will have, and continue to have, access to is simply trading. Profiteering from selling something that is no longer available from the same source - to the disadvantage of anyone who comes later - is "unfair". I've no problem taking a gamble, though educated speculation is how I'd say it, and realizing a profit. There's risk, there's effort, there's reward and, most importantly, there's accomplishment. This thing... like someone said, "Free isk printing". I'm not trying to criticize or denounce but I have to be honest. It's not something I would do, period, as I find it unsavory. You can take that for what its worth or keep pretending that finally, after 10 years of Eve involvement, I've taken up denial. Your choice, I care not.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
mental maverick
Duty.
Duty. Private Security
|
Posted - 2010.07.05 14:56:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Profiting from planning forward about changing demands or supplies that everyone will have, and continue to have, access to is simply trading. Profiteering from selling something that is no longer available from the same source - to the disadvantage of anyone who comes later - is "unfair".
I've no problem taking a gamble, though educated speculation is how I'd say it, and realizing a profit. There's risk, there's effort, there's reward and, most importantly, there's accomplishment.
This is pretty much exactly the way I feel about it aswell. Only difference is that I think NPC goods investment falls under the educated speculation category, albeit with some differences that brings it closer to the edge.
This is also why i felt I had to do all my investing before the patch was released when everybody had equal opportunity to go on SISI and do their own research and act on it if they saw fit. Probably makes me a bit of a sap but thats how i felt i had to do it and how i ultimately did it.
On the part about NPC goods being educated speculation or Free isk printing I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
Love the discussion though, allways fun to see other peoples point of view, cheers
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Vilgan Mazran
Aperture Harmonics
K162
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Posted - 2010.07.05 15:25:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Vilgan Mazran on 05/07/2010 15:26:12
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Just so i get this right Shar, you are of the opinion that stocking up before NPC orders were removed was an exploit?
Before I even answer this part can we both accept that I only make judgments directed at myself? So even if I think it is an exploit or cheat - that determination is only for me and for my own behavior?
Its not only for yourself if you feel the need to tell the world about your opinion/thoughts of morality/etc. I freely admit to not having as much integrity as some. For example, I will (and have) returned wallets that I've found laying about. On the flipside, when I've found a $20 laying on the ground I'll keep it without making an attempt to find the owner. Some people I know would put a decent amount of effort into finding the owner.
I have a ton of respect for people who live a life of integrity by example, and they never feel the need to tell people what they feel is right/wrong/whatever. Instead they just live it. I am impressed by their example and try to do better myself. Then there is the group of people that will (perhaps) have more integrity than average but feel the need to crow about it at every opportunity. They tend to be extremely obnoxious and self righteous.
Personally, everything I've ever seen from Shar suggests he is clearly in the 2nd group. He gives the impression of being extremely impressed with himself and tells people about what he considers right/wrong and he is (of course) always on the side of right. The first post of his in this thread is a great example.
Be fun to see more people in the first category, unfortunately the Shars of the world number significantly outnumber them and then we get nonsense about how they feel X was wrong and how they didn't do X GOOD FOR THEM. Oh well, whatevah.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.07.05 15:42:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Vilgan Mazran
Personally, everything I've ever seen
If we contained to the world into that category, a poor world it is and would be. Of course, since it is obvious from your criteria you must be one humorless and unimaginative person. I'm not cuddly but like I've said, Smaug is not always the bad guy. Oh and since you made such effort to lead up to that bit of trolling: /finger. Didn't want you to feel as unappreciated here as you must in life.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Cosmic Rainbow
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Posted - 2010.07.05 16:35:00 -
[51]
Originally by: mental maverick
Originally by: Kieselguhr Kid
Based off market history in the Forge/Citadel/Lonetrek triangle, Goonswarm (the corp itself and our 10-15 biggest investors combined) believes we have roughly 20% of all guidance systems and silicate glass stockpiled before Tyrannis, along with smatterings of every other NPC item. We also made several hundred billion off lustering and other drone compounds when they were rebalanced, as well as a couple of hundred billion more off 1/3 price outposts and 1/5 price POS.
Depending on price points, our biggest individual investor will make around 1 to 2 trillion isk off Tyrannis. Somewhere around a few dozen of us will make at least 100b.
<3 CCP
So you were the guys that made the spike on June 7th in the Forge eh?
Bwahahaha - you're all going to screw eachother, and not in a nice way. Only a couple of you are going to make the profits you are projecting for 2 reasons:
1) The amount of purchasing that was done from NPC's far exceeds what any of you calculated.
2) CCP will intervene if prices become too significant and impacts the general functioning of the economy. Profits in the trillions of dollars will have such a negative impact in the overall functioning of the economy that CCP will have no choice but to alter the mechanics of PI such that the prices will drop.
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10yps
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Posted - 2010.07.05 17:36:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow
Bwahahaha - you're all going to screw eachother, and not in a nice way. Only a couple of you are going to make the profits you are projecting for 2 reasons:
1) The amount of purchasing that was done from NPC's far exceeds what any of you calculated.
2) CCP will intervene if prices become too significant and impacts the general functioning of the economy. Profits in the trillions of dollars will have such a negative impact in the overall functioning of the economy that CCP will have no choice but to alter the mechanics of PI such that the prices will drop.
Not sure if you have been looking at the price of p4. Chances of CCP altering the game so that price of PI drop is very unlikely, pretty soon every little corp will be able to build towers for close to nogthing. Actually based upon current prices, I would say chances of CCP altering PI to force a raise in prices is more likely.
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General Bezelbub
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.05 17:48:00 -
[53]
I do find it confusing that people say PI prices are too high. I mean the manufactoring cost of pos mods is ~50-80% of what they were under npc prices, and if you shop around you can easily get that even lower.
Looking at the process for PI, when it was on test-server, I figuered CCPs goal was to increase Pos-mods cost by 30-40% and not lower them. As well as increasing pos fueling by 10-20%.
I for one, would hate cheap poses, as pos warfare is about as fun as mining.
though throwing up 20-30 towers in someone elses system could be very amusing.
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Guilliman R
Gallente
PRO Space Hunters
HUNTER'S BROTHERHOOD
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Posted - 2010.07.05 19:12:00 -
[54]
20.8 bil invested. If I sell at current prices, I have 36bil return.
I'm not selling tho, estimates will put that number closer to 60-70 bil return over a longer period.
What I invest in will remain a secret for obvious reasons. |
Ruareve
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Posted - 2010.07.05 19:46:00 -
[55]
I made about 8mil today, my first time selling anything from my planets. I'm not doing enough with PI for a big return though, I have 3 planets and only a lvl 3 CC in high sec. I just wanted to be part of something new since I'm pretty new to the game myself.
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lacal
Minmatar
Vir Honns Lackeys
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Posted - 2010.07.05 20:33:00 -
[56]
High sec mission runner, part time PI'r here :)
10 planets across 2 characters in high sec, I'm not exporting anything less than a p2 from my planets so as to avoid having to keep flying to the planets, but I am needing to run 3 * 5 hour cycles per 24 hour period to keep 2 AIF's per planet going 24/7
2 planets making coolant and 1 making rocket fuel at the rate of 20 per hour, assuming 3k isk per unit that's approx 4.3Million per day
2 planets producing viral agent, 2 planets producing Oxides, 2 planets producing Biocells - again each planet manages 20 per hour, so 40 of each product per hour that then gets fed into my final 'processing planet' making Integrity Response Drones at the rate of 1 per hour.
Assuming 1.6Mill per Integrity response drone, that's 38.4 Million per day
So between all planets an income of 42.7 Million per day, 1.3ish billion per month or 15.5 billion per year.
I used income rather than profit and a yearly figure as I pre-purchased 1 years supply of the 3 missing P2's and the missing P3 in my chain (from NPC orders)
I cant remember the exact figures but 1000isk per unit for superconductors, transmitters and polytextiles sounds about right along with 5-6kish per Planetary vehicle, So about 1.3Bill pre invested, and in fact I must have overestimated the per unit cost as I only spent 1.3Bill on npc orders but have 330k each of mechanical parts and consumer electronics as well.
So for profit, we have 15.5 Billion minus about 6% in taxes and import/export fees and minus my initial 1.3 Billion, comes to 13.25 Billion plus whatever I end up making on the mech parts and consumer electronics.
tl;dr 1.3Bill invested plus 512460 mouse clicks (damned extractors!) for a projected profit of 13 Billion over 12 months
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mental maverick
Duty.
Duty. Private Security
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Posted - 2010.07.05 21:49:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Guilliman R
20.8 bil invested. If I sell at current prices, I have 36bil return.
I'm not selling tho, estimates will put that number closer to 60-70 bil return over a longer period.
What I invest in will remain a secret for obvious reasons.
No need to divulge what you invested in, as it clearly was the wrong stuff if those are the pretty meager returns your looking at tbh.
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Guilliman R
Gallente
PRO Space Hunters
HUNTER'S BROTHERHOOD
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Posted - 2010.07.05 21:51:00 -
[58]
Originally by: mental maverick
No need to divulge what you invested in, as it clearly was the wrong stuff if those are the pretty meager returns your looking at tbh.
Actually I started late after the npc orders got dropped. That number would probably be 3-5x as high if I did buy npc orders.
Oh well, maybe next expansion I can score golden.
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.07.05 23:22:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Kypud
Investment into NPC goods etc: zero
Its not how I want to play the game.
when are you joining ebank
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Wolfcheck
Pack o' Wolves
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Posted - 2010.07.06 13:14:00 -
[60]
Well.
I commend shar tegal on 2 things: first of all, for claiming and being proud of his own integrity. And second, for passing judgment on himself only.
I tend to do the same and I'm proudly clinging to my own integrity as well. It's simply futile to wonder why you should stick to integrity in the face of profit.
Yet, I can't see how profiting from a change in the rules is an "exploit". I do not claim I did not buy NPC products cuz "I'm honest". I didn't because I couldn't foresee it, and shoot me down for that.
CCP makes the rules: if they rules are bad, then we play in a flawed world. Yet it's futile to complain about the rules of the world - live with them or suffer them. If you decide not to take all you can from them, that's your choice, but it does not make you any better than others.
My opinion.
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