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[Issue] CCP's vagueness with removing Ankh

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Galdornae Caldari Locus Industries	Posted - 2010.07.09 23:26:00 - [61] Big thumbs down to this "proposal." Ankh is such an idiot that I'm not even remotely surprised that she went and blabbed about something she'd signed an NDA about. Why exactly should we expect CCP to tell us info about something they'd had a NDA about in the first place? To satisfy all you people's personal curiousity? I agree that the CSM must be transparent, but by all indications this was not something directly related to CSM workings. Most notably, CCP doesn't owe you. They have every right to keep secret inner workings secret. The CSM is better off without Ankh, nuff said.
Larkonis Trassler EMIX INC	Posted - 2010.07.09 23:54:00 - [62] Hi, Lark here, you may remember me from such internet political scandals as Larkonisgate and... well, that's it. I shall offer some insight having been the only other person thus far to have been removed from the CSM (although in my case I 'resigned'). Now chaps, you're all rushing ahead here. I think a lot of you were slightly spoiled by the way CCP dealt with my misdemeanor. For all the hurf blurf it was a 'relatively' minor in game infraction where I was the only beneficiary of said actions and CCP had the advantage of being able to deal with me in person, me being cooperative and having the rest of the CSM on site to help clean up my mess. As none of these conditions appear to have been met (going by Ankh's quote on Massively) that's probably the reason you're not getting as much information. I've no idea what Ankh did and I'd like to know as much as everyone else. Transparency is great most of the time but the NDA is a srs bsns document and covers a lot of bases. If the breach was particularly serious then there are potential RL legal ramifications as such it is going to be in neither party's best interests to go mouthing off about what happened. CCP gave a reason. That reason was breach of the NDA. You don't have to like it. I, for one don't either, but like it or not it is more than they are required to tell you. This isn't Big Brother, you can't put someone up for a public vote if they foul up. PS Page 3 snipah. PPS Not supported.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.07.10 00:20:00 - [63] Originally by: Skogen Gump You can't talk about privacy, when using someone's handle and real-life name in the same paragraph. in my very humble opinion. Your opinion is dead wrong then. There's literally no other way to handle it if it is in fact a breach of NDA. I hate repeating myself but CCP has made an announcement that Eva Jobse has breached her NDA and removed her from the CSM. This means that Eva Jobse has a very real possibility of being terminated from her current position (apparently at another game development company) where she is undoubtedly also bound by an NDA. This will almost certainly terminate her career in her current industry, as well as any other industry which routinely requires a NDA. Just in case the obvious implication doesn't hit you with a 10 ton hammer across the side of the head: CCP either has some pretty solid proof of a real and serious NDA breach or they're about to be in a civil suit worth hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees and much more in damages. Seeing as how their lawyers (who were almost certain to be involved) would **** themselves over the second option, it's almost got to be the first. So what got her in trouble? Logically, we can assume that she knows at least as much as the other CSM delegates - and potentially more (via a side conversation, etc). We can exclude information and attitudes that were posted in blogs other than hers.. and thus can exclude her blog. We can exclude "spoongate" because there are much more direct, and legally safe, ways of handling that. Really, we can exclude pretty much all the tinfoil hat bull** people are coming up with because of the seriousness of the manner in which this was done. CCP and Eva Jobse are both handling this like it is a real and serious legal issue (and it is!), and they both are doing what I'd think any competent legal counsel would advise - sit tight and STFU. Quote: To those who say that it's ok for CCP to be private, let me remind you that they've (afaik) unanimously removed an elected official. What kind of confidence does this give you for anything the CSM can or can't do after this ? A bit better, actually. It's a sign that they're taking this position seriously and giving them enough power and information to warrant an NDA and significant legal risks. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire
Jin Nib Resplendent Knives	Posted - 2010.07.10 00:38:00 - [64] This whole thing is only a touchy issue because its Ankh. If it was anyone else it would be "oh wow what a tard" and blow over. This despite the fact that based on her general behavior, she was also the CSM member most likely to ignore an NDA. Drama and Ankh, hmm, what a surprise... -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
Dr BattleSmith PAX Interstellar Services	Posted - 2010.07.10 03:07:00 - [65] Originally by: Trygonus As much as you like to hate Ank, she did go to Iceland and be vocal and push CCP to fix things. Everyone else just seemed to be there for the cake and did nothing they said they would do during their run for CSM. I guess the initiative and having someone on their hands from the CSM that meant business was too much for CCP to handle. So sacking her was the best course of action. pr0 tip: Do not actually do what you said you would do to get elected if you want to stay in the CSM. ^ this Without some information from CCP this appears to be what happened.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.07.10 03:42:00 - [66] Originally by: Dr BattleSmith Originally by: Trygonus As much as you like to hate Ank, she did go to Iceland and be vocal and push CCP to fix things. Everyone else just seemed to be there for the cake and did nothing they said they would do during their run for CSM. I guess the initiative and having someone on their hands from the CSM that meant business was too much for CCP to handle. So sacking her was the best course of action. pr0 tip: Do not actually do what you said you would do to get elected if you want to stay in the CSM. ^ this Without some information from CCP this appears to be what happened. I'm pretty sure that the minutes won't agree with you. And without information from CCP, I'd argue that it appears there's a serious legal problem - such as perhaps a breach of NDA. Stop with the tinfoil hattery... at this point it looks stupid. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Dr BattleSmith PAX Interstellar Services	Posted - 2010.07.10 04:07:00 - [67] Originally by: Liang Nuren Stop with the tinfoil hattery... at this point it looks stupid. A simple observation. Until CCP clarifies to players satisfaction it appears political. Just the reality of the situation.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.07.10 04:28:00 - [68] Originally by: Dr BattleSmith Originally by: Liang Nuren Stop with the tinfoil hattery... at this point it looks stupid. A simple observation. Until CCP clarifies to players satisfaction it appears political. Just the reality of the situation. I've outlined an enormous number of reasons that make the "political" tinfoil hattery answer about as reasonable as walking stark naked to work tomorrow morning through downtown Chicago. When you have $0, no means of communication, and are currently in Antarctica a thousand miles from the nearest human. Please stop with the tinfoil hattery. CCP has just committed themselves to an ENORMOUS legal liability and both they and Eva are handling this EXACTLY as though it's a real honest to God NDA breach. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Persepoli	Posted - 2010.07.10 04:59:00 - [69] Edited by: Persepoli on 10/07/2010 05:00:13 nvm - link is screwed
Dr BattleSmith PAX Interstellar Services	Posted - 2010.07.10 05:39:00 - [70] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Dr BattleSmith Originally by: Liang Nuren Stop with the tinfoil hattery... at this point it looks stupid. A simple observation. Until CCP clarifies to players satisfaction it appears political. Just the reality of the situation. I've outlined an enormous number of reasons that make the "political" tinfoil hattery answer about as reasonable as walking stark naked to work tomorrow morning through downtown Chicago. When you have $0, no means of communication, and are currently in Antarctica a thousand miles from the nearest human. Please stop with the tinfoil hattery. CCP has just committed themselves to an ENORMOUS legal liability and both they and Eva are handling this EXACTLY as though it's a real honest to God NDA breach. -Liang Yes..... You are correct.... I agree... However none of that changes the fact that Eve players are expecting more information.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.07.10 06:06:00 - [71] Originally by: Dr BattleSmith However none of that changes the fact that Eve players are expecting more information. That is true, and that is what we are pushing for at this very moment. Although, as Liang has elaborated on at length, CCP is not obligated to inform us in any way, and if it was a different council member, the sentiment echoed on these forums by a fanatic few would be wholly absent, or even worse, inversed. á I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.07.10 06:10:00 - [72] Originally by: Trygonus As much as you like to hate Ank, she did go to Iceland and be vocal and push CCP to fix things. Everyone else just seemed to be there for the cake and did nothing they said they would do during their run for CSM. I guess the initiative and having someone on their hands from the CSM that meant business was too much for CCP to handle. So sacking her was the best course of action. pr0 tip: Do not actually do what you said you would do to get elected if you want to stay in the CSM. I hate to be disappointing you here but Ankh took up the least speaking time by far, in fact she didn't say anything at all during about half the meetings. á I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything.
Rip Minner Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries	Posted - 2010.07.10 08:40:00 - [73] I know was she meta gaming in the real world? Like a Company spy trying to steal some valuble trade secert from CCP? lmao I just had to put it out there becouse I thought it was funny :) Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here.
anthonieak Gallente SuX ltd.	Posted - 2010.07.10 10:44:00 - [74] As we will never hear the outcome of it what has happened, du too sentisive of the information. As a voter who had 3 times voted on her you feel a certain point of disappointed. And now my feeling is in what sense can we trust that members we choose for CSM have the right intension? As read further I read that the meeting only takes place in HQ. In other words they trust no one anymore. Although a see ten times we had nothing too do with it, what must we believe as voters over it. Does CSM still act as pact for eve-voters and for what they stand for? Also I see Non Disclore Agreement, I think most of members even do not even know what it is. Only people who work in the security branches. So where does stand for what involves it? AK
Terranid Meester Tactical Assault and Recon Unit	Posted - 2010.07.10 11:07:00 - [75] I quite liked her blog. This is a quote from Ankh from the massively website - Eva had the following to say: "All I can say at the moment is that out of respect for the CSM, the players of EVE, as well as the good people at CCP, I cannot give any details besides my personal conviction that CCP's statement is not in relation to any of my recent publications, and that I do not share CCP's conclusion that there has in fact been an NDA breach. I am currently engaged in following up this situation with CCP." Source is here
Madner Kami Gallente Durendal Ascending Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub	Posted - 2010.07.10 11:38:00 - [76] Edited by: Madner Kami on 10/07/2010 11:39:21 Originally by: Terranid Meester [...] and that I do not share CCP's conclusion that there has in fact been an NDA breach. I am currently engaged in following up this situation with CCP." If there wasn't, then why is she still dead-silent? Haven't seen her in forums or anywhere since 3 days and counting... She got way too much to loose and her behaviour hints at something really really serious. CCP wouldn't risk getting sued into oblivion with false accusations, given her life is basically depending on if that was true or not.
KaraStarbuckThrace	Posted - 2010.07.10 13:53:00 - [77] Originally by: Madner Kami Edited by: Madner Kami on 10/07/2010 12:00:11 Originally by: Terranid Meester [...] and that I do not share CCP's conclusion that there has in fact been an NDA breach. I am currently engaged in following up this situation with CCP." If there wasn't, then why is she still dead-silent? Haven't seen her in forums or anywhere since 3 days and counting... She got way too much to loose and her behaviour hints at something really really serious. CCP wouldn't risk getting sued into oblivion with false accusations, given her life is basically depending on if that was true or not. The best guess in her favour is, that she told someone something, that was under the NDA, but she didn't think it was. Beyond that, it can only become worse. Completely agree with this. You have to remember that this has a massive impact on Eva's Real Life. If she has in fact deliberately broke the terms and conditions of a NDA then this could have a massive impact on her professional life. CCP knows this as well. I don't believe they would for one minute accuse somebody who real life work revolves around game design of something as serious of breaching a NDA because she said a few things that they didn't like. This would leave CCP open to being sued for liable. I suspect like Madner, that Eva has unwittingly and accidentally revealed some information that was covered by a NDA hence forcing CCP to remove her from the CSM. Also I suspect that due to Eva's silence that she has become aware of this breach. Lets be honest here, if you were in Eva's position, where your professional livelihood was under threat because somebody made a serious accusation about you and you knew 100% you were innocent, you would be screaming for all to hear protesting your innocent. As for CCP releasing more information, well you can forget it. It was a breach of NDA. You expect CCP to state how Eva broke the NDA, in the process of doing this, CCP themselves breaching the NDA. I only hope for Eva that it was just a simple mistake and will not be taken any further.
Soy Salomon Caldari Envoy Corps Quebec Power	Posted - 2010.07.10 14:47:00 - [78] Originally by: Sokratesz I'm just posting information, if people interpret said information incorrectly that's not my problem. SOme people just want to see things that aren't there, but it will be a lot easier to convince them or if not that, ridicule them, with CCP backup. Well, actually yes, that's completely your problem and it always is when you are a public speaker / delegate. That's called "politics".
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.07.10 15:11:00 - [79] Originally by: Soy Salomon Originally by: Sokratesz I'm just posting information, if people interpret said information incorrectly that's not my problem. SOme people just want to see things that aren't there, but it will be a lot easier to convince them or if not that, ridicule them, with CCP backup. Well, actually yes, that's completely your problem and it always is when you are a public speaker / delegate. That's part of what is called "politics". Maybe that's also the reason that internet politics != rl politics. á I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything.
DeckardIRL The Randoms	Posted - 2010.07.10 15:29:00 - [80] Supposedly its nothing to do with the CSM, you don't need the CSM to tell you that little is being done about much except Incarna and DUST514... PM is a huge disappointment... like FW was previously... Ank is disputing that she has in fact breached the NDA. Eva is a game developer by profession, maybe the issues lies there. All in all no one knows squat so Sokratesz should put a sock in it... Deck Whiskey For CAOD at its best
Yendor Widdershins Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2010.07.10 15:34:00 - [81] Originally by: KaraStarbuckThrace Also I suspect that due to Eva's silence that she has become aware of this breach. I have come to believe this as well. Simply put, given her personality, if CCP had removed her without justification, she'd be shouting from the rooftops about now. Or blustering about filing a lawsuit. However, the topic under discussion isn't directly whether or not she did something wrong, or even exactly what she did. The topic under discussion is whether CCP should provide more details (particularly to the CSM) such as, for example, officially saying "No, it wasn't her blog." Right now, the impression that CCP is conveying is: NDA breach = serious CSM = joke. As in, they are ignoring the CSM children to deal with a serious matter. Just remember that the next time you see some of the rhertoric of "I will hold CCP accountable for <insert issue here>".
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.07.10 15:56:00 - [82] Originally by: DeckardIRL All in all no one knows squat so Sokratesz should put a sock in it... Deck A What? Oo á I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything.
Soy Salomon Caldari Envoy Corps Quebec Power	Posted - 2010.07.10 16:03:00 - [83] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Soy Salomon Originally by: Sokratesz I'm just posting information, if people interpret said information incorrectly that's not my problem. SOme people just want to see things that aren't there, but it will be a lot easier to convince them or if not that, ridicule them, with CCP backup. Well, actually yes, that's completely your problem and it always is when you are a public speaker / delegate. That's part of what is called "politics". Maybe that's also the reason that internet politics != rl politics. I wish the line was so easy to cut. Sadly for you, it isn't.
Discrodia Gallente Blue Sun Heavy Industries	Posted - 2010.07.10 16:26:00 - [84] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Soy Salomon Originally by: Sokratesz I'm just posting information, if people interpret said information incorrectly that's not my problem. SOme people just want to see things that aren't there, but it will be a lot easier to convince them or if not that, ridicule them, with CCP backup. Well, actually yes, that's completely your problem and it always is when you are a public speaker / delegate. That's part of what is called "politics". Maybe that's also the reason that internet politics != rl politics. As far as I've seen internet politics is a good deal more complicated, stupid, and filled with assumptions than RL politics. Point aside, if she broke her NDA then there's no frakkin reason for CCP to tell us all exactly what she saw that broke her NDA, as that's the whole point of a goddamn non-disclosure agreement. To make sure the general population (aka EVE's players) don't know whats happening in iceland. Originally by: CCP Adida Wait where am I... Don't remember a thing from last night.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.07.10 16:40:00 - [85] Originally by: Soy Salomon Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Soy Salomon Originally by: Sokratesz I'm just posting information, if people interpret said information incorrectly that's not my problem. SOme people just want to see things that aren't there, but it will be a lot easier to convince them or if not that, ridicule them, with CCP backup. Well, actually yes, that's completely your problem and it always is when you are a public speaker / delegate. That's part of what is called "politics". Maybe that's also the reason that internet politics != rl politics. I wish the line was so easy to cut. Sadly for you, it isn't. Yes, yes it is. á I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything.
Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp.	Posted - 2010.07.11 09:27:00 - [86] Out of personal curiosity of course I would support this, but then this is one of those things which I doubt CCP would ever be willing to negotiate on. So it doesn't really matter what any of us think, tbh. /Ben
Daool	Posted - 2010.07.11 11:32:00 - [87] "CCP gave a reason. That reason was breach of the NDA." Well, no. Breach of NDA was the instrument under which CCP removed the individual they accuse of DOING SOMETHING which was the reason for acting. And no, I know thats not the legal attitude but CCP have an ethical responsibility to their employees (who are also covered by NDA's and have a right to know the way in which CCP wield them) and the paying player community also. The REASON for the dismissal could be any of a million reasons and disclosing actual details is not necessary to give some openness to the process, and could include for example: - having deliberately/accidently disclosed future product information, - same for technical technicques (programming etc), - CCP financial information (undisclosed losses etc), - Undisclosed information about CCP employees/directors, CCP could easily just say 'dissemination of information about as yet unanounced product development' and everyone would back off (or anyone reasonable would) untill a later time when the information is no longer secret. To say 'it can't be discussed' and leave it at that is absurd. NDA's are usually such broadly worded documents that they CAN be used to cover just about ANYTHING if you want to twist them far enough, so saying whatever it is was covered by the NDA means zero.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.07.11 23:38:00 - [88] Originally by: Daool NDA's are usually such broadly worded documents that they CAN be used to cover just about ANYTHING if you want to twist them far enough, so saying whatever it is was covered by the NDA means zero. The exact contents of an NDA are usually covered by it. Liang Nuren took the time and effort to explain all this quite nicely in one of the related threads, you should really look it up if you are interested. á I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything.
Daool	Posted - 2010.07.12 00:01:00 - [89] "The exact contents of an NDA are usually covered by it." Well yes and no. As someone who both has to sign maybe an NDA every other month and have others sign our NDAs about every week there is usually a few semi-specific clauses in an NDA (or at least articles which appear to be specific but usually often are not if you read them correctly - ie from the point of view of the Coy making you sign it) and a number of clauses which can (if they realy want) be interpreted very loosley indeed. There are of course very specific 'single item' type NDA's, but since it has already been stated that the other CSMs who had to sign the same document don't know why she was dismissed we can very safely take it (?) that the document did not explicitly state 1 single item or even a short bit specific list.
David Carel Caldari Random Selection. Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2010.07.12 02:55:00 - [90] It's quite common to sign a NDA on the actual NDA before signing it. About the only 'simple' NDA I signed is the Steamworks NDA.

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