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Persepoli
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Posted - 2010.07.08 12:23:00 -
[1]
Reading through this forum, and seeing the endless rubbish that is coming out over incidences of the past couple of days/weeks/months/years - I think it's time for CCP to just ditch the whole idea of the CSM.
From this players POV it's a waste of time and effort. Less than 10% of the player base votes in the farce that is portrayed as an election. The so called "representatives" garner votes mainly from game alliances and alt-trolling campaigns, and every CSM results in more of the same - NDA breaches, meta spying, allegations of GM corruption, etc, etc, etc.
To date nothing that has been discussed at any of the CSM's over the past couple of years has resulted in any ingame changes. Lots of hot air and forum poasts get generated, but unfortunately this is not a Balloon based MMO so all that effort goes to waste.
So it's time to disband this farcical concept. It's time that CCP used the money that goes into the CSM to hire some more QA or Devs.
Now that would be a worthwhile way for CCP to spend the money we give it each month.
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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.08 12:29:00 -
[2]
One member of the CSM was acting out, and she's the one that's been removed. The rest of them are doing an excellent job.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Tiny Montgomery
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Posted - 2010.07.08 12:35:00 -
[3]
Time to disband the forums |
Bo Tosh
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Posted - 2010.07.08 12:54:00 -
[4]
How effective has the CSM been in getting player driven initiatives acted upon by CCP?
Is the CSM anything more than a sop to the player community in order to keep us quiet and out of CCP's collective hair?
Have the CSM delivered value for the time and resources spent by both the player base and CCP on maintaining them?
When you can deliver concrete negative answers for these questions backed by solid evidence then you have a case until then even though I tend to agree with many of your statements there is no point in putting forward a proposal.
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Turdilious
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Posted - 2010.07.08 13:12:00 -
[5]
Supported. I don't care for the CSM at all.
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Menkala
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Posted - 2010.07.08 13:26:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Bo Tosh
How effective has the CSM been in getting player driven initiatives acted upon by CCP?
We don't know. Possibly yes, possibly no. There's no way of truly telling. Personally I think yes - in the past CCP have reacted to things based on suggestions on forums, and having a group of people sat in a room telling them what the people that voted them is more compelling than that. CCP changing the CSM to a department within the company itself shows they do have some faith in them.
Originally by: Bo Tosh
Is the CSM anything more than a sop to the player community in order to keep us quiet and out of CCP's collective hair?
Hardly keeps us quiet. Up until CSM came around it was the forums as a player-outlet and nothing but. Have the forums quietened down because of the CSM? No. Infact, people are more willing to come forward with suggestions given the new forum outlets. At the very least the CSM forums are an expansion of the features and ideas forums and a concentrated place for other gripes from other forums.
Originally by: Bo Tosh
Have the CSM delivered value for the time and resources spent by both the player base and CCP on maintaining them?
We don't know. And what resources spent by the player base? I take 5minutes yearly to vote. I base my votes on forum reading - that I do regardless of if there was a CSM around. Even if this is nothing but a PR boondoggle, CCP may of got their moneys worth in the advertising generated from the CSM. Even the BBC had a CSM story.
Originally by: Bo Tosh
When you can deliver concrete negative answers for these questions backed by solid evidence then you have a case until then even though I tend to agree with many of your statements there is no point in putting forward a proposal.
What people want is seemingly a statement from CCP - "Feature A was suggested by the CSM and then implemented." Thats kinda redundant tbh. Any idea may well of been floating around inside CCP before the CSM - CSM may give them a list of an order of priorities.
Basically - as a playerbase we really haven't LOST anything with the CSM. Your view changes on how much we've GAINED. Like I said before - at the very least the playerbase has gained advertising for Eve. At its most, a voice of the people. Still am very much in favor of the CSM.
Before: If you had a gripe, you talk about it on the forums.
After: If you have a gripe, you talk about it on the forums. CSM candidates take note about what to talk about in Iceland, and talk to CCP about it.
I don't see whats wrong with that.
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Irumani
Gallente
hirr
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.07.08 14:04:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Tiny Montgomery
Time to disband the forums
Oh no, please.
How would I spend my time at work ?
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Dograzor
The Black Rabbits Academy
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2010.07.08 14:29:00 -
[8]
@ Persepoli
I call your bull**** & say you're an angry troll that decided to spam since the latest csm development with ahnk being booted.
CSM changes have been implemented throughout the years, and the CSM on itself is an unique dev-player approach that makes Eve what it is today, and I do not see the need for it to be disbanded.
Now go pout elsewhere.
Next.
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"We don't gank, we just apply force in a disproportionate manner during an uneven tactical combat situation to maximize revenue and increase shareholder value" |
Krans Hopeson
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.07.08 14:46:00 -
[9]
I think the CSM are doing a good job. Having read the chat logs for their meetings so far, I was struck by how well nearly everybody other than Ankh were pulling together. I've also been encouraged by how strong a chairman Mynxee is, and how determined she is to ensure that the CSM makes a real difference for the playerbase. Check out this blog post.
It's not time to disband the CSM. On the contrary, I support them, and hope that they can carry on with their good work even better now that Ankh's disruptive influence has been removed.
--
"The only stupid question is the one you don't ask." |
Cortante
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Posted - 2010.07.08 18:19:00 -
[10]
CSM is garbage, always will be garbage. It's a pointless schmoozefest that takes up too much of CCP's time.
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General klinkerhoffen
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Posted - 2010.07.08 18:42:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Persepoli
To date nothing that has been discussed at any of the CSM's over the past couple of years has resulted in any ingame changes. Lots of hot air and forum poasts get generated, but unfortunately this is not a Balloon based MMO so all that effort goes to waste.
There was the free 100,000 SP.. whether you like it or not it is a change that the CSM suggested, wasn't it?
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FOEHAMMER006
Domini Umbrus
DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2010.07.08 22:27:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Dograzor
@ Persepoli
I call your bull**** & say you're an angry troll that decided to spam since the latest csm development with ahnk being booted.
CSM changes have been implemented throughout the years, and the CSM on itself is an unique dev-player approach that makes Eve what it is today, and I do not see the need for it to be disbanded.
Now go pout elsewhere.
Next.
Please, don't be dumb. I really wanted to ask you this, because your post reeks of dumb. 
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.07.08 22:33:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Turdilious
Supported. I don't care for the CSM at all.
Demanding CSM to be disbanded kinda makes it directly opposite, don't you think 
Make your mind, or smth.
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Persepoli
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Posted - 2010.07.08 22:38:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dograzor
@ Persepoli
I call your bull**** & say you're an angry troll that decided to spam since the latest csm development with ahnk being booted.
CSM changes have been implemented throughout the years, and the CSM on itself is an unique dev-player approach that makes Eve what it is today, and I do not see the need for it to be disbanded.
Now go pout elsewhere.
Next.
LOL - another inane comment from the rent-a-crowd
Ok Mr Brown-nose, I'll call your BS - name me one - just one - CSM requested change that has been implemented by CCP (that they were not already considering implementing as part of their dev cycle).
Now off you go little pet, go spout somewhere else and leave the big people to talk.
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Azmodeus Valar
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2010.07.08 22:58:00 -
[15]
Skill queue was one feature that CCP was very set against, but the CSM championed.
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Courthouse
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.07.08 23:14:00 -
[16]
Things that have had a greater impact on EVE than the CSM:
17 page hurf about titans
threadnaughts
hacking of non-associated websites
Volcanoes
Spreadsheets
Volcanoes
Little clumps of rocks that some pagan 800 years ago might have housed elves.
Bjork
Doodlepads
Bat-phones
Obligatory rotten shark reference
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Lord XSiV
Amarr
Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2010.07.08 23:15:00 -
[17]
Personally, I would prefer if they dropped the CSM and brought Eve TV back.
Having a TV 'show' about the game you play is kind of cool whereas a free trip given to a bunch of people elected by socially ******ed players isn't cool. From a business perspective, CCP gains much better marketing value from the TV show than they ever would from CSM.
Plus Stevie is looking pretty good these days and appears to have much more confident public presence so give her old job back.
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Cobalt Sixty
Caldari
Intercision
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Posted - 2010.07.08 23:59:00 -
[18]
Why stop there? Time to disband the Internet.
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Gekkoh
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.07.09 05:43:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Malcanis
One member of the CSM was acting out, and she's the one that's been removed. The rest of them are doing an excellent job.
What benefits have we, the players, seen from the CSM so far?
Maybe I haven't been paying close enough attention, but I've yet to see anything that CCP has done differently based on input from the CSM that couldn't have been gathered much more cheaply via the suggestions in these forums.
Surely we don't need an entire council of players being sent to Iceland in order to summarize forum feedback, do we?
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Darth Vapour
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Posted - 2010.07.09 06:45:00 -
[20]
Let's take at look at the previous minutes which contain this:
Quote:
To increase transparency to the players 4 things are deemed needed:
1. The meeting minutes will have to be made public as soon as possible.
2. A retrospective blog by PTtur on the CSM summit.
3. A separate devblog on the status list for issues raised by the CSM in the past.
4. A devblog by Torfi on the CSM and the use that CCP and EVE get out of it.
Out of four, point 2 was actually completed but was merely a fluff piece where the only concrete improvement noted
Quote:
Another change is that we had a dedicated secretary taking the minutes, instead of having the Secretary of the CSM taking them. That resulted in the minutes being published six days after the CSM was in Iceland.
is no longer the case as we are still waiting for the minutes.
Any comment from the CSM why you let CCP igonore you while continuing to play your part in the PR show ?
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Lykouleon
Trust Doesn't Rust
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Posted - 2010.07.09 10:54:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Persepoli
Less than 10% of the player base votes in the farce that is portrayed as an election.
So we get rid of the system instead of encouraging lazy/ignorant people to actually interact and do something positive to improve everyone's experience?
Excuse me while I got bash my head into a desk.
Quote:
CCP Mindstar > Sorry - I've completely messed all that up. lets try again
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Terrigal
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Posted - 2010.07.09 11:01:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Lykouleon
Originally by: Persepoli
Less than 10% of the player base votes in the farce that is portrayed as an election.
So we get rid of the system instead of encouraging lazy/ignorant people to actually interact and do something positive to improve everyone's experience?
Excuse me while I got bash my head into a desk.
Its not that its because even though its all with the best intentions from both CCP & the voted CSM there's abosultely nothing ever done to fix the issue brought up over and over and over do i need to go on.
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ViolenTUK
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.09 11:55:00 -
[23]
Edited by: ViolenTUK on 09/07/2010 11:55:28
Originally by: Courthouse
Things that have had a greater impact on EVE than the CSM:
17 page hurf about titans
threadnaughts
hacking of non-associated websites
Volcanoes
Spreadsheets
Volcanoes
Little clumps of rocks that some pagan 800 years ago might have housed elves.
Bjork
Doodlepads
Bat-phones
Obligatory rotten shark reference
OMG thats so true. CSM is a joke.
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Sujanra Acoma
Minmatar
Shadow Kitty Legion
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Posted - 2010.07.09 13:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Darth Vapour
Let's take at look at the previous minutes which contain this:
Quote:
To increase transparency to the players 4 things are deemed needed:
1. The meeting minutes will have to be made public as soon as possible.
2. A retrospective blog by PTtur on the CSM summit.
3. A separate devblog on the status list for issues raised by the CSM in the past.
4. A devblog by Torfi on the CSM and the use that CCP and EVE get out of it.
Out of four, point 2 was actually completed but was merely a fluff piece where the only concrete improvement noted
Quote:
Another change is that we had a dedicated secretary taking the minutes, instead of having the Secretary of the CSM taking them. That resulted in the minutes being published six days after the CSM was in Iceland.
is no longer the case as we are still waiting for the minutes.
Any comment from the CSM why you let CCP igonore you while continuing to play your part in the PR show ?
We're still waiting for the minutes because the CSM asked to review and edit them before they got passed on to us.
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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.07.09 13:33:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Mynxee on 09/07/2010 13:34:05
Originally by: Darth Vapour
Quote:
Another change is that we had a dedicated secretary taking the minutes, instead of having the Secretary of the CSM taking them. That resulted in the minutes being published six days after the CSM was in Iceland.
is no longer the case as we are still waiting for the minutes.
Any comment from the CSM why you let CCP igonore you while continuing to play your part in the PR show ?
What do you propose we do, fly to Iceland and storm CCP Headquarters demanding action? Communications with CCP is routinely slow--it can take days to get an answer to a simple question. Email is the only mechanism we have for communicating and because of the common delay in replies, nothing that resembles dialog is possible.
The CSM edits to the Minutes have been in CCP's hands since Sunday. My last communication from them about the status of the Minutes was Tuesday. At that time, I expressed the opinion that contextual details of discussions are important to leave in to demonstrate the ways in which the CSM is representing players' views. Now we're waiting for CCP to finish their edits. If they actually do what was promised (give CSM the chance to review their edits before the Minutes are published) and we discover that we don't agree with their revisions, then what? CSM has the choice of just letting them get published that way in the interest of time/player interest or risking further delay by insisting on changes that make sense to us.
As with most choices CSM must make, we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.
Life In Low Sec |
Jebidus Skari
Comply Or Die
Retribution.
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Posted - 2010.07.09 13:34:00 -
[26]
Time to disband CSM - Totally...CCP dont even listen to it, its been proved time and time again...
CCP clearly do not listen or want to listen to the player base....and havent for years, its a PR ploy thats badly implemented.
When are you going to wake up and small the coffee
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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.07.09 13:39:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Jebidus Skari
When are you going to wake up and small the coffee
I had hopes that CSM5 would be different because of "stakeholder"...but so far, not. So...yeah.
Life In Low Sec |
Darth Vapour
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Posted - 2010.07.09 14:06:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Darth Vapour on 09/07/2010 14:08:33
Originally by: Mynxee
What do you propose we do, fly to Iceland and storm CCP Headquarters demanding action? Communications with CCP is routinely slow--it can take days to get an answer to a simple question. Email is the only mechanism we have for communicating and because of the common delay in replies, nothing that resembles dialog is possible.
The CSM edits to the Minutes have been in CCP's hands since Sunday. My last communication from them about the status of the Minutes was Tuesday. At that time, I expressed the opinion that contextual details of discussions are important to leave in to demonstrate the ways in which the CSM is representing players' views. Now we're waiting for CCP to finish their edits. If they actually do what was promised (give CSM the chance to review their edits before the Minutes are published) and we discover that we don't agree with their revisions, then what? CSM has the choice of just letting them get published that way in the interest of time/player interest or risking further delay by insisting on changes that make sense to us.
As with most choices CSM must make, we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.
You can resign. It's the only weapon in your arsenal unfortunately and it can only be used once. CCP can and will ignore you if it suits their interests.
If CCP keeps sending you draft minutes you don't agree with, will you keep sending them back until your CSM period is over ? There is obviously something massively wrong if the minutes are so different from what you remember being discussed and decided. If it's incompetence or malign intent that has caused this will have to be seen but you should at least make some sort of deadline by which either minutes are published or you take a stand.
edit: Your acceptance of CCP taking days to communicate is worrying. It's the 21st century, messages do not travel to Iceland by ship anymore. Was this slow communication not one of the things that was supposed to improve since the CSM was implemented ?
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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.07.09 14:41:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Darth Vapour
You can resign. It's the only weapon in your arsenal unfortunately and it can only be used once. CCP can and will ignore you if it suits their interests.
...
Your acceptance of CCP taking days to communicate is worrying. It's the 21st century, messages do not travel to Iceland by ship anymore. Was this slow communication not one of the things that was supposed to improve since the CSM was implemented ?
Resigning would be the easy way out...but (imho) would have zero impact on CCP or the CSM process. Plus it would remove the the ability to report on matters from an inside perspective--which is vital to keeping players informed about realities of the CSM process. Besides...I am still hopeful that CSM5 can accomplish something useful (even if that something turns out to be very different from our "party line" charter).
My "acceptance"? If you have some ideas for forcing a more timely response to emails (with the exception of more emails, a technique we're already familiar with), I'd love to hear them.
Life In Low Sec |
Darth Vapour
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Posted - 2010.07.09 14:55:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Mynxee
My "acceptance"? If you have some ideas for forcing a more timely response to emails (with the exception of more emails, a technique we're already familiar with), I'd love to hear them.
Talk to your CCP champions via Skype or some other method ? Emails can and will be ignored if the recipient thinks they are not relevant or important.
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