EVE Search - Whats the point flying a high end cruiser...

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Vachir	Posted - 2003.06.27 22:51:00 - [31] "A good cruiser might destroy any frigate, but it will run into big problems when there are 5 totally different types of frigs attacking. With an ECM frig to jam you, 3 combat frigs to penetrate your shields you¦d have a lot of trouble, even if your cruiser is a very good one. At the point where the missile frig comes in you¦ll be down... I¦m pretty sure about that." One frigate won't jam one cruiser. In theory all 3 could load up on ECM and then use weak guns to take it down, but that's true of any one vs many scenario. The truth is, in any given equal numbers scenario, there is no tactical reason to use anything but the biggest ships you can possibly afford. This is a huge problem with the game IMHO, but that's the way it is.
Vachir	Posted - 2003.06.27 22:51:00 - [32] "A good cruiser might destroy any frigate, but it will run into big problems when there are 5 totally different types of frigs attacking. With an ECM frig to jam you, 3 combat frigs to penetrate your shields you¦d have a lot of trouble, even if your cruiser is a very good one. At the point where the missile frig comes in you¦ll be down... I¦m pretty sure about that." One frigate won't jam one cruiser. In theory all 3 could load up on ECM and then use weak guns to take it down, but that's true of any one vs many scenario. The truth is, in any given equal numbers scenario, there is no tactical reason to use anything but the biggest ships you can possibly afford. This is a huge problem with the game IMHO, but that's the way it is.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.06.27 22:59:00 - [33] << One frigate won't jam one cruiser. In theory all 3 could load up on ECM and then use weak guns to take it down, but that's true of any one vs many scenario. >> From what I hear, the ECMs from different ships don't stack. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Jash Illian Minmatar Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.	Posted - 2003.06.27 22:59:00 - [34] << One frigate won't jam one cruiser. In theory all 3 could load up on ECM and then use weak guns to take it down, but that's true of any one vs many scenario. >> From what I hear, the ECMs from different ships don't stack. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Molly	Posted - 2003.06.27 23:06:00 - [35] Call it simply unbalanced and broken. It does not make any difference if you meet a battleship with a shuttle or a high end cruiser with good defense systems. Soon we will see clubs of battleships pilots. And you will not be able to do anything against it. What's the point attacking a battleship with 6-7 cruisers? If you can't jam it's weapons quickly all cruisers will be destroyed. As I told you: 4000 dmg in 2 seconds. No time to alter your tactic. --- "Molly > funny thing is, if they warn me for attacking in 1.0, why does a GM wish me luck doing so? Jash Illian > perverse sense of humor? Molly > lol Jash Illian > honestly tho, because he prolly doesn't know bships"
Molly Gallente Doomheim	Posted - 2003.06.27 23:06:00 - [36] Call it simply unbalanced and broken. It does not make any difference if you meet a battleship with a shuttle or a high end cruiser with good defense systems. Soon we will see clubs of battleships pilots. And you will not be able to do anything against it. What's the point attacking a battleship with 6-7 cruisers? If you can't jam it's weapons quickly all cruisers will be destroyed. As I told you: 4000 dmg in 2 seconds. No time to alter your tactic. --- "Molly > funny thing is, if they warn me for attacking in 1.0, why does a GM wish me luck doing so? Jash Illian > perverse sense of humor? Molly > lol Jash Illian > honestly tho, because he prolly doesn't know bships"
Endureth	Posted - 2003.06.27 23:24:00 - [37] Here is some food for thought. I fly a Thorax. Mounted on it are two 250 mm Compressed Coil Guns and one Anode Ion Particle Cannon I. When I fight NPC pirate frigates my 250's which should have a minimum range still track the little bastards when they are 1k away and hit them for the same amount of damage I would do to them if they were 25k away. I don't think that's the way it's suppose to be. The tracking on my guns shouldn't be able to keep a bead on Incursus's at that close a range. Now, drag this over to a PvP scenario and you can see why the frigates don't stand a chance against anyone (good) in a cruiser. I'm pretty sure CCP doesn't want it to work this way. The way they invision it (and they way it should be) is that three pilots in Incursus' should be able to use wolf pack tactics against a sole cruiser and whittle it down pretty easily. With each frigate having one component that cripples/weakens some component of the cruiser, the cruiser could really be in bad shape. But it's not working like this. Instead, the game has become a mindless mess of mining for isk, buying the biggest guns you can get your hands on and pressing a fire button. If you can take out your enemy this fast there is no need to worry about any defensive components at all. In the mean time, those who are not aggressive are getting their asses handed to them because all the defensive modules simply don't compare. I'm not going to get into a rant about this. Everything I'm saying is pretty obvious and something that should have definately been working at game release. It's been two months since then and it's still out of wack. CCP, you want role-playing, strategy, and exciting, blood-pumping battles in your world, you need to get this squared away now. -E
Endureth Aliastra	Posted - 2003.06.27 23:24:00 - [38] Here is some food for thought. I fly a Thorax. Mounted on it are two 250 mm Compressed Coil Guns and one Anode Ion Particle Cannon I. When I fight NPC pirate frigates my 250's which should have a minimum range still track the little bastards when they are 1k away and hit them for the same amount of damage I would do to them if they were 25k away. I don't think that's the way it's suppose to be. The tracking on my guns shouldn't be able to keep a bead on Incursus's at that close a range. Now, drag this over to a PvP scenario and you can see why the frigates don't stand a chance against anyone (good) in a cruiser. I'm pretty sure CCP doesn't want it to work this way. The way they invision it (and they way it should be) is that three pilots in Incursus' should be able to use wolf pack tactics against a sole cruiser and whittle it down pretty easily. With each frigate having one component that cripples/weakens some component of the cruiser, the cruiser could really be in bad shape. But it's not working like this. Instead, the game has become a mindless mess of mining for isk, buying the biggest guns you can get your hands on and pressing a fire button. If you can take out your enemy this fast there is no need to worry about any defensive components at all. In the mean time, those who are not aggressive are getting their asses handed to them because all the defensive modules simply don't compare. I'm not going to get into a rant about this. Everything I'm saying is pretty obvious and something that should have definately been working at game release. It's been two months since then and it's still out of wack. CCP, you want role-playing, strategy, and exciting, blood-pumping battles in your world, you need to get this squared away now. -E
Kayosoni	Posted - 2003.06.27 23:33:00 - [39] It only makes sense that a battleship could destroy a top of the line cruiser in a few shots. First, battleships have about 3 times the defenses a cruiser has. second, battleships can do about 3 times the damage per gun. Third, some battleship can have twice as many guns. Though... a battleship could rip a cruiser apart in a few seconds if the battle is only between shields and weapons. Add in electronic warfare and it's a whole 'nother story. Of course, the scorp can have a huge advantage 1v1 because of this. What's the use of all those guns on your Apoc if you're being weapon inhibited by 5 balmers and can't hit anything beyond 500m... Edited by: Kayosoni on 27/06/2003 23:36:24 ----------------------------------- Currently Playing Lineage 2 - Erica Server
Kayosoni Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2003.06.27 23:33:00 - [40] It only makes sense that a battleship could destroy a top of the line cruiser in a few shots. First, battleships have about 3 times the defenses a cruiser has. second, battleships can do about 3 times the damage per gun. Third, some battleship can have twice as many guns. Though... a battleship could rip a cruiser apart in a few seconds if the battle is only between shields and weapons. Add in electronic warfare and it's a whole 'nother story. Of course, the scorp can have a huge advantage 1v1 because of this. What's the use of all those guns on your Apoc if you're being weapon inhibited by 5 balmers and can't hit anything beyond 500m... Edited by: Kayosoni on 27/06/2003 23:36:24 ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
Molly	Posted - 2003.06.27 23:35:00 - [41] No cruiser was able to shot my Thorax in 6 seconds. Thats 3 times 2. Thank you. --- "Molly > funny thing is, if they warn me for attacking in 1.0, why does a GM wish me luck doing so? Jash Illian > perverse sense of humor? Molly > lol Jash Illian > honestly tho, because he prolly doesn't know bships"
Molly Gallente Doomheim	Posted - 2003.06.27 23:35:00 - [42] No cruiser was able to shot my Thorax in 6 seconds. Thats 3 times 2. Thank you. --- "Molly > funny thing is, if they warn me for attacking in 1.0, why does a GM wish me luck doing so? Jash Illian > perverse sense of humor? Molly > lol Jash Illian > honestly tho, because he prolly doesn't know bships"
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.06.27 23:49:00 - [43] During beta there was a point where I felt the Frigate to Cruiser balance was just right. A cruiser would destroy a frigate at range but if the frigate survived the run in close range on the cruiser, the cruiser began to get into serious trouble. Long range guns could barely track a frigate and landed hits infrequently. The hits they did land weren't consistant with high end damage. But that was changed over player complaints, at my guess. The thing that people didn't take in account is such a frigate pilot had spend invested heavily to be able to do that. And took out a loan at the Bank of Luck as well. Surviving the run in on a cruiser was very painful. The frigate had to be tricked out, not for power, but for speed and agility. And the pilot had to invest in Motion Prediction or else his own speed began working against him, interfering with his tracking. And all that work could be countered if the cruiser was equipped with even the basic close combat anti-frigate weapons availible on the market (you know the guns nobody uses any more). But I guess it hurt people too much to lose a Moa to a Rifter. Even if 3 times out of 4 the Rifter would get smashed simply by using a little variety in your weapons. So I guess to answer the earlier question of what a bship is for is something like this: Bships would be the heavy artillery. Slow, cumbersome and extremely effective at causing large amounts of damage at range. Their purpose would be to vaporize things from as far away as possible. They would have the firepower to do so. But also have the liability of being required to vaporize things from as far away as possible. Because anything that got up close could begin to cause serious damage to it. Cruisers would be the support ships for battleships and people's General Purpose Ship when solo. In large scale battles they would support the battleship with shield/energy/sensor buffs while protecting against other ships that made it past the battleship's effective range. When travelling solo, they'd be open to a wide configuration based on the pilot's desire and task at hand. The frigate's role in large scale battle would be to get in close and knife people in the vulnerable spots. Utilizing their speed and agility, they could swarm any of the large ships that lacked anti-frigate defenses (smartbombs, anti-frigate weaponry, other ships) and nibble them to death. While at range they'd disappear in eyeblinks (especially if CCP implement guns capable of producing wide area effect damage, like real artillery does). Edited by: Jash Illian on 28/06/2003 00:08:02 I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Jash Illian Minmatar Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.	Posted - 2003.06.27 23:49:00 - [44] During beta there was a point where I felt the Frigate to Cruiser balance was just right. A cruiser would destroy a frigate at range but if the frigate survived the run in close range on the cruiser, the cruiser began to get into serious trouble. Long range guns could barely track a frigate and landed hits infrequently. The hits they did land weren't consistant with high end damage. But that was changed over player complaints, at my guess. The thing that people didn't take in account is such a frigate pilot had spend invested heavily to be able to do that. And took out a loan at the Bank of Luck as well. Surviving the run in on a cruiser was very painful. The frigate had to be tricked out, not for power, but for speed and agility. And the pilot had to invest in Motion Prediction or else his own speed began working against him, interfering with his tracking. And all that work could be countered if the cruiser was equipped with even the basic close combat anti-frigate weapons availible on the market (you know the guns nobody uses any more). But I guess it hurt people too much to lose a Moa to a Rifter. Even if 3 times out of 4 the Rifter would get smashed simply by using a little variety in your weapons. So I guess to answer the earlier question of what a bship is for is something like this: Bships would be the heavy artillery. Slow, cumbersome and extremely effective at causing large amounts of damage at range. Their purpose would be to vaporize things from as far away as possible. They would have the firepower to do so. But also have the liability of being required to vaporize things from as far away as possible. Because anything that got up close could begin to cause serious damage to it. Cruisers would be the support ships for battleships and people's General Purpose Ship when solo. In large scale battles they would support the battleship with shield/energy/sensor buffs while protecting against other ships that made it past the battleship's effective range. When travelling solo, they'd be open to a wide configuration based on the pilot's desire and task at hand. The frigate's role in large scale battle would be to get in close and knife people in the vulnerable spots. Utilizing their speed and agility, they could swarm any of the large ships that lacked anti-frigate defenses (smartbombs, anti-frigate weaponry, other ships) and nibble them to death. While at range they'd disappear in eyeblinks (especially if CCP implement guns capable of producing wide area effect damage, like real artillery does). Edited by: Jash Illian on 28/06/2003 00:08:02 I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Kayosoni	Posted - 2003.06.28 00:05:00 - [45] You can still easilly lose a cruiser like that. Using 4 dual 425mms I can kill about anything unless they get to 1km from me. And those Serpentis defenders and protectors have all blasters so it can really hurt, even with hardeners, if they get that close (though it's still not a match...) Jash, your strategy is indeed a good one, and very conservative (which I like.) Just one problem... all those frigates are going to get popped in about 2 seconds, and all the cruisers in about 10, which makes it very difficult to employ a large battle strategy with many pilots like that one. I'm not saying there's a problem with the strategy, it's just that there's a problem with the game. Multiple ships of one class can be killed way too fast by the higher class, and in mass battles it can be way too laggy and confusing to have a strategy really work efficiently. You also can't rely on everyone to be using a frigate or cruiser when there are battleships available, which do the job much better than a frigate or cruiser. Scorps will be come the norm for Electronic warfare ships, instead of blackbirds, and just about any other battleships will become the norm for theheavy hitters. you're not gonna be seeing two battleships fielded and 5 cruisers and 15 frigates. You'll see lots of battleships and maybe a few cruisers. Edited by: Kayosoni on 28/06/2003 00:11:25 ----------------------------------- Currently Playing Lineage 2 - Erica Server
Kayosoni Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2003.06.28 00:05:00 - [46] You can still easilly lose a cruiser like that. Using 4 dual 425mms I can kill about anything unless they get to 1km from me. And those Serpentis defenders and protectors have all blasters so it can really hurt, even with hardeners, if they get that close (though it's still not a match...) Jash, your strategy is indeed a good one, and very conservative (which I like.) Just one problem... all those frigates are going to get popped in about 2 seconds, and all the cruisers in about 10, which makes it very difficult to employ a large battle strategy with many pilots like that one. I'm not saying there's a problem with the strategy, it's just that there's a problem with the game. Multiple ships of one class can be killed way too fast by the higher class, and in mass battles it can be way too laggy and confusing to have a strategy really work efficiently. You also can't rely on everyone to be using a frigate or cruiser when there are battleships available, which do the job much better than a frigate or cruiser. Scorps will be come the norm for Electronic warfare ships, instead of blackbirds, and just about any other battleships will become the norm for theheavy hitters. you're not gonna be seeing two battleships fielded and 5 cruisers and 15 frigates. You'll see lots of battleships and maybe a few cruisers. Edited by: Kayosoni on 28/06/2003 00:11:25 ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
Lansing	Posted - 2003.06.28 00:20:00 - [47] LOL (sorry in advance but go read the thread on High end game play. and look at the post on 2nd page.) They should have put a stop to this when frigates could take out newb ships the same way. ROFLMFAO. <-- sarcasm. Do you see any difference? It's topics like this one that lead to the forever nerfing of everything in the game. Next it should be that only equal types of ships with equal loadouts should be able to engage each other on a one on one basis, unless all parties agree before battle. It's never going to end. Well maybe it will but noone will be playing anyway by then. Edited by: Lansing on 28/06/2003 00:20:57 Edited by: Lansing on 28/06/2003 00:24:59
Lansing	Posted - 2003.06.28 00:20:00 - [48] LOL (sorry in advance but go read the thread on High end game play. and look at the post on 2nd page.) They should have put a stop to this when frigates could take out newb ships the same way. ROFLMFAO. <-- sarcasm. Do you see any difference? It's topics like this one that lead to the forever nerfing of everything in the game. Next it should be that only equal types of ships with equal loadouts should be able to engage each other on a one on one basis, unless all parties agree before battle. It's never going to end. Well maybe it will but noone will be playing anyway by then. Edited by: Lansing on 28/06/2003 00:20:57 Edited by: Lansing on 28/06/2003 00:24:59
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.06.28 00:24:00 - [49] I think what I envisioned was pretty much what CCP envisioned. Just somewhere along the line, they lost sight of that with the natural tendancy of content creators to make the next thing bigger and better than the last thing. So yeah, everyone is stuck on another level ladder. It's just a more subtle one than the ones in EQ and such. If you don't get the absolute best gear and biggest ship your role is defined: cannon fodder. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Jash Illian Minmatar Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.	Posted - 2003.06.28 00:24:00 - [50] I think what I envisioned was pretty much what CCP envisioned. Just somewhere along the line, they lost sight of that with the natural tendancy of content creators to make the next thing bigger and better than the last thing. So yeah, everyone is stuck on another level ladder. It's just a more subtle one than the ones in EQ and such. If you don't get the absolute best gear and biggest ship your role is defined: cannon fodder. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Kayosoni	Posted - 2003.06.28 00:28:00 - [51] Jash, this is nothing new, it happens in every game. The ONLY game I've ever played that allowed one class to defeat any other is Homeworld: Cataclysm. ----------------------------------- Currently Playing Lineage 2 - Erica Server
Kayosoni Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2003.06.28 00:28:00 - [52] Jash, this is nothing new, it happens in every game. The ONLY game I've ever played that allowed one class to defeat any other is Homeworld: Cataclysm. ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
Shivash	Posted - 2003.06.28 00:37:00 - [53] I agree in essense with Jash. As the distance closes the smaller ships should excel. Not to mention the fact that at range the smaller ships should be harder to hit. Just look at what did the damage to bismark in WWII ( swordfish and destroyers IIRC ) because they could outmanoveur the big guns. Put your speed up and start manoveuring and the bigger ship's guns should drop off in accuracy and damage as they struggle to track the smaller nibbler and fast moving target.
Shivash Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2003.06.28 00:37:00 - [54] I agree in essense with Jash. As the distance closes the smaller ships should excel. Not to mention the fact that at range the smaller ships should be harder to hit. Just look at what did the damage to bismark in WWII ( swordfish and destroyers IIRC ) because they could outmanoveur the big guns. Put your speed up and start manoveuring and the bigger ship's guns should drop off in accuracy and damage as they struggle to track the smaller nibbler and fast moving target.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.06.28 00:39:00 - [55] << Jash, this is nothing new, it happens in every game. The ONLY game I've ever played that allowed one class to defeat any other is Homeworld: Cataclysm. >> Yes, Caty was fun :) And I think that's what CCP was angling for in fleet battles and such. Dunno where or why they got sidetracked, but right now we're just stuck climbing another level ladder. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Jash Illian Minmatar Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.	Posted - 2003.06.28 00:39:00 - [56] << Jash, this is nothing new, it happens in every game. The ONLY game I've ever played that allowed one class to defeat any other is Homeworld: Cataclysm. >> Yes, Caty was fun :) And I think that's what CCP was angling for in fleet battles and such. Dunno where or why they got sidetracked, but right now we're just stuck climbing another level ladder. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Kayosoni	Posted - 2003.06.28 00:45:00 - [57] Actually shivish, the smaller class does excel at fighting the next class up close, unless they have blasters. Right now the problem is that a frigate will last all of 2 seconds against a well-equipped cruiser at a range beyond 7000m. And battleship/battlecruiser is basically the same thing. Dreadnoughts too (if you use all the same gun...) Though you can't really compare classes in a game to classes that exist right now. The difference between a cruiser and battleship in eve is enourmous. You could say there is no destroyer class in the game. The osprey would be a light cruiser and Moa a heavy cruiser. I wonder how it would work if we had classes inbetween frigate/cruiser and cruiser/battleship... Edited by: Kayosoni on 28/06/2003 00:49:10 ----------------------------------- Currently Playing Lineage 2 - Erica Server
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.06.28 00:45:00 - [58] Once upon a time my little Rifter took out a Maller. But back then the cruiser guns just couldn't track close in - now they can without fail. Somewhere along the lines somebody turned some code off and broke it. Needs turning back on. - - - As for Cruisers and Battleships... well thats slightly different. NO cruiser is ever going to be able to trade free punches with a Battleship... a "battle-Cruiser" maybe, but that class isnt in the game yet (if ever). A Cruiser is there to take out bigger ships when supported (by whatever) but is primarily there to smash smaller ships. Obviously atm though things are skewed horendously by the low-slot stacking problems, the SS bug and teh two main equip-cheats. Once those are gone things will be clearer as to any imbalances.
Morkt Drakt Caldari Black Omega Security	Posted - 2003.06.28 00:45:00 - [59] Once upon a time my little Rifter took out a Maller. But back then the cruiser guns just couldn't track close in - now they can without fail. Somewhere along the lines somebody turned some code off and broke it. Needs turning back on. - - - As for Cruisers and Battleships... well thats slightly different. NO cruiser is ever going to be able to trade free punches with a Battleship... a "battle-Cruiser" maybe, but that class isnt in the game yet (if ever). A Cruiser is there to take out bigger ships when supported (by whatever) but is primarily there to smash smaller ships. Obviously atm though things are skewed horendously by the low-slot stacking problems, the SS bug and teh two main equip-cheats. Once those are gone things will be clearer as to any imbalances.
Kayosoni Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2003.06.28 00:45:00 - [60] Actually shivish, the smaller class does excel at fighting the next class up close, unless they have blasters. Right now the problem is that a frigate will last all of 2 seconds against a well-equipped cruiser at a range beyond 7000m. And battleship/battlecruiser is basically the same thing. Dreadnoughts too (if you use all the same gun...) Though you can't really compare classes in a game to classes that exist right now. The difference between a cruiser and battleship in eve is enourmous. You could say there is no destroyer class in the game. The osprey would be a light cruiser and Moa a heavy cruiser. I wonder how it would work if we had classes inbetween frigate/cruiser and cruiser/battleship... Edited by: Kayosoni on 28/06/2003 00:49:10 ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai

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