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DuKackBoon
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.07.21 08:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
The way I understand the cloaking devices, they bend electromagnetic waves around the ship, and prevent any radiation from leaving this 'bubble' created by the device. Now, that means the ship will heat up, eventually it would just evaporate from the heat.
What I propose is to make cloaking devices heat up, burning out if you leave them on too long. One would have to decloak periodically to let the cloaking device cool down again. Also add a skill and/or module that allows to stay cloaked for longer, and perhaps dissipate the heat quicker, allowing one to re-cloak faster.
Why do this? Quite simple. AFK-Cloaking is the most effective Area-Denial tactic currently available in the game. You can make entire regions close to useless this way. I think this is just a tad too effective. Forcing periodic decloaks would keep this tactic viable, but make it riskier, balancing the risk vs reward at least slightly.
Edit: Maybe also allow the cloaking devices to use up coolant, to stay cloaked longer. |
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
429
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Posted - 2012.07.21 09:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
Remove Local Chat Intel! |
Plaude Pollard
Crimson Cartel
56
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Posted - 2012.07.21 09:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
Xorv wrote:Remove Local Chat Intel! As much as I like the concept of free Intel, I actually like your suggestion better than the OP's. At least removing Local won't nerf Stealth Bombers. |
DuKackBoon
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.07.21 09:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
That would take away some of the risk-appeal of Wormholes however, *and* kill the Area Denial ability of covops. My goal was to keep it, but increase the risk, without nerfing anything too badly. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
306
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Posted - 2012.07.21 10:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
Hey look, a nerf cloaking thread. |
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
142
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Posted - 2012.07.21 10:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
DuKackBoon wrote: AFK-Cloaking is the most effective Area-Denial tactic currently available in the game.
If they are afk then what threat they actually pose? If they are not then your solution changes nothing.
DuKackBoon wrote: You can make entire regions close to useless this way.
Useless for risk averse nullbears - sure. Useless for all others - no.
And that's the way it should be.
DuKackBoon wrote:but increase the risk
What risk? Needing to decloak once in a while when sitting at your safespot is riskier? You could even start warping between safespots while waiting to recloak. Where is the risk you speak of?
The only people, who would be influenced by this change are those, who need to cloak at their safespot because of some unexpected rl stuff happening. |
Captain Presario
Israeli Space Corporation Error Unkown
0
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Posted - 2012.07.21 11:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
Xorv wrote:Remove Local Chat Intel!
And in doing so
= The death of eve online
This is not a fantasy MMO were it doesn't matter whose around you.
If you remove local
Null Sec becomes useless, fleets cant form up against other fleets because NO INTEL ON NUMBERS so systems fall and drop everyday
You people are stupid
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Captain Presario
Israeli Space Corporation Error Unkown
0
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Posted - 2012.07.21 11:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:DuKackBoon wrote: AFK-Cloaking is the most effective Area-Denial tactic currently available in the game.
If they are afk then what threat they actually pose? If they are not then your solution changes nothing. DuKackBoon wrote: You can make entire regions close to useless this way.
Useless for risk averse nullbears - sure. Useless for all others - no. And that's the way it should be. DuKackBoon wrote:but increase the risk What risk? Needing to decloak once in a while when sitting at your safespot is riskier? You could even start warping between safespots while waiting to recloak. Where is the risk you speak of? The only people, who would be influenced by this change are those, who need to cloak at their safespot because of some unexpected rl stuff happening.
Spoken like a true stealth pilot
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Yewan
Kung-Fu Fighting Club
2
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Posted - 2012.07.21 11:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
What risk? Needing to decloak once in a while when sitting at your safespot is riskier? You could even start warping between safespots while waiting to recloak. Where is the risk you speak of?
The only people, who would be influenced by this change are those, who need to cloak at their safespot because of some unexpected rl stuff happening.
Fact is that there are a segment who try blackmail "I won't leave this system until I get paid...." types who capitalize on the game mechanic. Problem is that the blackmailer (resisting urge to use derogatory names here....) might get caught infrequently but comes back over and over and over again which in the long run is (IMO) simply an indication of how "easy" it is for one guy to take advantage of the game mechanic which I also think is too easy to use, too quick to skill up for, and more often than not is used over long periods of time by a single player with no check/balance requirements.
Granted, 20 active players in a system aren't going to be intimidated by a lone wolf blackmail player. But the blackmailers know that there are many more hours of time when systems are getting used by smaller pockets of users (not the whole group) who are playing in very easy and vulnerable numbers while running plexes and mining. So, the 20 get together to run a trap and the blackmailer goes away until later. This is actually a fairly timezone friendly activity (I'm in N.A so I pick an EU system to ... um... take advantage of)
Changing the game system to require a higher price and/or introduce a balance is a good idea. In my opinion, another alternate solution is for there to be a "logistics" type cruiser with the ONLY purpose of cloaking fleets. This should be the ONLY cloak ship. Period. Also should be locked from moving. Period. Was never sure why cyno ship had such HUGE checks and balances, but the much more dangerous cloak capability is free to be put on a frigate without much penalty (to say nothing of a tengu etc.)
Finally, cloak should cost some fuel type similar to other "specials" like nano for heat and fuel for cyno. Then a solo griefing player will need logistic support to be 30 jumps from home meanwhile a larger alliance could make it happen for longer periods of time. Black ops bombers run in packs, so adding a logistic type ship to the equation isn't much of a problem for corps and alliances. Neither would a fuel cost. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
8219
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Posted - 2012.07.21 12:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
No.
Your 100%, risk free instant intel from local is a guarantee, while the server is up and running. The psychological effects from AFKing are not a guarantee. There is the difference.
The fact you can AFK without a cloak and gain the same psychological effects, should tell you your looking in the wrong direction for a nerf. Cloaks are NOT at fault here.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
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Uris Vitgar
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2012.07.21 13:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
AFK-cloaking wouldn't be one tenth as effective if you couldn't drop a ton of blackops ships instantly out of nowhere with a single bomber. Just sayin |
Bubanni
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
364
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Posted - 2012.07.21 14:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
Xorv wrote:Remove Local Chat Intel! That will only buff cloaking m8... Christmas wish list https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134275 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
Lord Zim
1081
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Posted - 2012.07.21 14:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
Xorv wrote:Remove Local Chat Intel! Remove L3 and L4s from hisec. |
Astroniomix
Thorn Project Black Thorne Alliance
94
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Posted - 2012.07.21 15:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Xorv wrote:Remove Local Chat Intel! Remove L3 and L4s from hisec. No keep lvl 3s in highsec. And honestly, you could remove missions from highsec entierly and at best it would cause you to lose some subs. (can't force people to play the game) And maby a handful would move out to lowsec. |
Busta Rock
The DawnSoarers
12
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Posted - 2012.07.21 19:20:00 -
[15] - Quote
I am kinda in favor of a nerf like this for NON-COVOPS cloaking devices. ie non-covops cloaks would have some kind of charge/fuel requirement for their use. here is my concept:
non-covops cloaks would require the use of cap booster charges, with base cloak time in seconds per charge equal to the charge rating , with meta level of the cloak determining:
- maximum capacity of the cloak for storing booster charges ready to use. for instance, a T1 meta 0 cloak would be limited to perhaps 5x cap booster 100's. a T1 meta 2 might be able to store 5x 200's, meta 4 would get 400's, and meta 8 (obviously faction) wold get 5x 800's. of course, you could load a cloak with a larger number of smaller charges if you're in the field without access to your max charge size (this way, a non-covops ship could conceivably refuel by looting wrecks, be they NPC rats or PVP kills), as an aside, this would also encourage the market for faction cloaks.
- efficiency of charge use - ie how long the cloak can stay on per charge. obviously higher meta=longer cloak time per charge. as a starting point, lets say each meta gets a 10% boost in charge life over the previous level when using a given cap charge.
the big thing is this: decloaking would use up the current charge. say youre in a cloaky vaga with a T2 improved cloak fitted, loaded with 5x cap booster 400's (a meta 5 cloak would get 645 seconds out of each 400 charge). you're cloaked up at a belt and decide to engage some miners. decloaking would terminate the charge your cloak is currently consuming to keep you cloaked (say you're currently on charge #x in the cloak... you would have to use the next loaded charge to cloak again).
to balance this charge limitation out, I would suggest giving all cloaks the ability to warp while cloaked, with the limitation being that the max warp speed would be directly affected by the cloak in the same way that sub-warp speed is currently. so a 3au/sec warp would now become a 0.3au/sec warp for a ship cloaked with a T1 meta 0 device, which would not improve if the ship decloaks mid-warp (if you want a high seed warp, dont initiate warp while cloaked).
this would actually make Blackops potentially effective, in that they could be givine the role bonus that they do not suffer the warp speed penalty, but would still need charges to cloak (albeit they would get far more time out of their charges so as to achieve cloak capabilities somewhere between T2 improved and T2 covops units) |
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
429
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Posted - 2012.07.21 20:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Xorv wrote:Remove Local Chat Intel! Remove L3 and L4s from hisec.
Sounds good.
|
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1088
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Posted - 2012.07.21 20:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
I think its time to make Corina's Law:
Anything done to hinder AFK cloakers will hinder active cloakers just as much, if not more. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
416
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Posted - 2012.07.21 21:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
Captain Presario wrote:Xorv wrote:Remove Local Chat Intel! And in doing so = The death of eve online This is not a fantasy MMO were it doesn't matter whose around you. If you remove local Null Sec becomes useless, fleets cant form up against other fleets because NO INTEL ON NUMBERS so systems fall and drop everyday You people are stupid Because obviously people cannot gather intel without local spoon-feeding it to them.
Clearly wormholes are a drug induced delusion intended to mislead people. They obviously have no fleets, and are unable to function. Someone should tell them already.
Have you even played the game? Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
277
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Posted - 2012.07.22 04:42:00 -
[19] - Quote
DuKackBoon wrote:The way I understand the cloaking devices, they bend electromagnetic waves around the ship, and prevent any radiation from leaving this 'bubble' created by the device. Now, that means the ship will heat up, eventually it would just evaporate from the heat.
What I propose is to make cloaking devices heat up, burning out if you leave them on too long. One would have to decloak periodically to let the cloaking device cool down again. Also add a skill and/or module that allows to stay cloaked for longer, and perhaps dissipate the heat quicker, allowing one to re-cloak faster.
Why do this? Quite simple. AFK-Cloaking is the most effective Area-Denial tactic currently available in the game. You can make entire regions close to useless this way. I think this is just a tad too effective. Forcing periodic decloaks would keep this tactic viable, but make it riskier, balancing the risk vs reward at least slightly.
Edit: Maybe also allow the cloaking devices to use up coolant, to stay cloaked longer.
thanks for the fake physics... AFKis not an issue.. at all. becaue they are not able to attack or even doing anything.. they are afk... theoretically. No force decloaks that arent already in the game.. this is a transparent attempt to win a nerf on all cloaking. That would break it completely for any real use.
Remove the cloaked from local and never worry aobut the "AFK" again. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Saul Elsyn
State Protectorate Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2012.07.22 05:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
I mean we ignore conservation of energy with spider tanking and energy transfers... we've got space that's thick as an ocean and all... I mean since when has real physics had a bearing in EVE Online? |
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Sekket
Dissident Aggressors Mordus Angels
30
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Posted - 2012.07.22 06:14:00 -
[21] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:thanks for the fake physics... "AFK" are not an issue.. at all. because they are not able to attack or even doing anything, they can't hurt you.... they are afk... theoretically anyway .. you have no way to know that they aren't really just sitting there at their keyboeard. No force decloaks that arent already in the game.. this is a transparent attempt to win a nerf on all cloaking. This would break it completely for any real use.
Remove the cloaked from local and never worry aobut the "AFK" again.
Really, the same tired arguments are repeated every time this subject comes up.
Here's the deal:
The effort required to spread paranoia of hotdrops with an AFK cloaker in a system: negligible.
The effort required to provide protection from a potential hotdrop: substantial.
It is far too asymmetric and It make s a mockery out of the idea of sovereignty.
I also have to wonder how many people who come in defense of people leaving an alt cloaked in a system 23/7 will also ridicule a miner who alt-tabs out to watch youtube or goes to do household chores while his strip miners are cycling for his lack of vigilance.
If the expected level of player interaction is to be at the keyboard and vigilant at all times while not docked then cloakers have been getting a free ride for far too long.
- CQ isn't a refuge, it's a cage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iu4iekX3WE |
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
289
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Posted - 2012.07.22 06:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
Concerning the OP. While I agree that there should be a 'real physics' explaination for what is going on with the cloaking devices. You have to take into consideration all the ways different factions and how their sensors identify ships and objects in space. Magnometric, Gravimetric, Radar and Ladar.
Beneath is purely subjective and has nothing to do with actual physics...
Magnometric - Literal measurement of the objects mangetic fields interacting with the environment and processing that against visual data inputed from camera's on the ship.
Gravimetric - Analysis of the gravatron particles imprint the area of space the ship takes up.
Radar - Do I really need to explain this...
Ladar - See above
A cloaking device would have to defeat all these sensor readings at the same time. Current understanding of physics cannot even explain how gravimetric detection systems would even work unless that object was in close proximity. Even then proximity to larger objects would confuse sensors as far as I could tell.
Anyway! this is Science Fiction and I'm operating under the assumption that the people of new eden understand subatomic physic much better than the foremost expert on the subject on Earth.
With that in mind I will say this only once.
You cannot understand how or why cloaking devices work, how then can you make the assumption that they do not follow the natural laws of physic/thermaldynamics? |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
8221
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 08:39:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sekket wrote:Barbara Nichole wrote:thanks for the fake physics... "AFK" are not an issue.. at all. because they are not able to attack or even doing anything, they can't hurt you.... they are afk... theoretically anyway .. you have no way to know that they aren't really just sitting there at their keyboeard. No force decloaks that arent already in the game.. this is a transparent attempt to win a nerf on all cloaking. This would break it completely for any real use.
Remove the cloaked from local and never worry aobut the "AFK" again. Really, the same tired arguments are repeated every time this subject comes up. Here's the deal: The effort required to spread paranoia of hotdrops with an AFK cloaker in a system: negligible. The effort required to provide protection from a potential hotdrop: substantial. It is far too asymmetric and It make s a mockery out of the idea of sovereignty. I also have to wonder how many people who come in defense of people leaving an alt cloaked in a system 23/7 will also ridicule a miner who alt-tabs out to watch youtube or goes to do household chores while his strip miners are cycling for his lack of vigilance. If the expected level of player interaction is to be at the keyboard and vigilant at all times while not docked then cloakers have been getting a free ride for far too long. Guess what, you've brought in the same old tired argument of 'hotdrops'. If you want to talk about hotdrops, then make a thread regarding them.
One could argue they put more effort into going AFK, then you do into looking at local and seeing him there.
The effort required to protect your sov, is down to you. But if you want to thrive and survive in null, most of that protection should already be in place. So the adjustment for one lone AFK pilot, should also be negligible. If you don't have any protection already in place, then there's only one here making a mockery of sovereignty and that's you.
But I'll answer me this. Whilst they are AFK, what game mechanic are they using to interact with you and attempt to create fear, through psychological warfare?
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2012.07.22 08:45:00 -
[24] - Quote
Captain Presario wrote:Xorv wrote:Remove Local Chat Intel! And in doing so = The death of eve online This is not a fantasy MMO were it doesn't matter whose around you. If you remove local Null Sec becomes useless, fleets cant form up against other fleets because NO INTEL ON NUMBERS so systems fall and drop everyday You people are stupid
Maybe it's just me, but I'm having a hard time deciding if Cappy here is trolling or just plain stupid.
On the one hand there is negligible risk in parking a stealthed alt off of a jump gate for potentially significant information gains. Likewise if you're already in the system the directional scanner is a very useful, and valid, tool for telling you if and what, though not necessarily who, just showed up. Neither is removed from the game by removing local chat's list of people in a star system.
On the other hand it makes the work of aggressors more difficult. Unless they get lucky and slip in a stealthed observer either before one of the aforementioned scout alts arrives or when the "pilot" isn't paying attention they're going to be noticed. Likewise unless the pilots in local are morons and leave their ships named "so and so's whatever" the aggressors aren't going to be able to load up a directional scan page, add names to their contact list, and say, "Okay, this guy's online and probably in this system so we've potentially got a minimum of X people here." Furthermore unless they're quick on the draw with narrowing down sections of the scan, or potential targets are simply out of the scan range from a jump gate, people in local will have a chance of either docking up (which will effectively provide free intel to aggressors) at a station or hiding at a POS before someone can notice the change in position and get a more accurate count of the local population.
On the gripping hand Cappy is trying to suggest that "fantasy MMOs" are somehow some sort of mystical wonderland for carebears as if PvP servers, where PvP could happen anytime and any place after the first or second leveling zone, didn't exist and games like Ultima Online and Dark Age of Camelot, where AFAIK "carebear"/PvE servers were never considered or at least created, never existed. This in turn has him suggesting that by removing local chat EVE Online would somehow be turned into one of World of Warcraft's PvE servers, or at least the spaceships in space equivalent thereof.
Frankly after the "fantasy MMO" comment I have to lean to trolling. The rest is stupid, but when someone says "fantasy MMO" my experience is that most people in EVE will think of WoW which will in turn set a burr under the skins of many of those people. |
VaL Iscariot
The Concilium Enterprises Spectrum Alliance
47
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Posted - 2012.07.22 09:26:00 -
[25] - Quote
oh look, its this thread again.. |
Horus V
4
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Posted - 2012.07.23 04:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
+1
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
410
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Posted - 2012.07.23 04:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
Shereza wrote:On the one hand there is negligible risk in parking a stealthed alt off of a jump gate for potentially significant information gains. Likewise if you're already in the system the directional scanner is a very useful, and valid, tool for telling you if and what, though not necessarily who, just showed up. Neither is removed from the game by removing local chat's list of people in a star system.
On the other hand it makes the work of aggressors more difficult. Unless they get lucky and slip in a stealthed observer either before one of the aforementioned scout alts arrives or when the "pilot" isn't paying attention they're going to be noticed. Likewise unless the pilots in local are morons and leave their ships named "so and so's whatever" the aggressors aren't going to be able to load up a directional scan page, add names to their contact list, and say, "Okay, this guy's online and probably in this system so we've potentially got a minimum of X people here." Furthermore unless they're quick on the draw with narrowing down sections of the scan, or potential targets are simply out of the scan range from a jump gate, people in local will have a chance of either docking up (which will effectively provide free intel to aggressors) at a station or hiding at a POS before someone can notice the change in position and get a more accurate count of the local population. I think you're missing the part where requiring alts for the sole purpose of sitting cloaked off gates just to replace local chat intel is an utterly ******** mechanic.
The ONLY intel local chat gives you is WHO is in the system, along with any intel that is voluntarily shared by other characters in the system (which can for obvious reasons be faulty). Lore-wise this can be explained by the fact that ships communicate via access to a grid of beacons in space using quantum entanglement communicators, which broadcast to other connected ships the list of players who are accessing these beacons at that time. There are no such beacons in wormhole space so communication is probably done via some other FTL technique not involving quantum entanglement, but the downside to this is that no connections are made between ships until explicitly authorized by the pilot.
With regards to the thread in any case, cloaking is fine as-is, and I say this as someone who is reluctant to rat in systems because of AFK cloakers. In that situation I just move elsewhere. EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
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