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Ontaku Oroa
Minmatar
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.12 23:29:00 -
[61]
Apparently, all Eve ships are fitted with escape pods, and crew can survive depending on where they are in the ship. Coreward crew has lesser chances of surviving than crew which are stationed closer to the hull (and escape pods). Also, it is assumed the ship hull and shield protection is sufficient to ward off radiation from nuclear and antimatter projectiles - after all if you can fly pretty close to the star and not die of radiation, I suppose the shielding is pretty awesome.
As for planetary population, even if only a third of the planets in Eve were populated to the level of Earth, that's roughly 100 trillion people to recruit from. Lets' say 20% of that is recruitable, that's 20 trillion potential crewmembers. Not only can you fill about 3 billion battleships with that pool of recruits, a hundred trillion people actually would breed like rabbits. Factor in that not all crew are killed when a ship goes boom, and you get an overcrowding problem, not the other way around. I suspect planetary governments are eager to get some of the population offplanet.
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Octoven
Amarr
Lupus Draconis
Dragehund
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Posted - 2010.07.12 23:56:00 -
[62]
Hmm.....capsule is pretty big so even if its just one escape pod then I guess in this instance the Captain does NOT go down with the ship and says the hell with the crew they are a dime a dozen and can be replaced. I imagine mutiny is rampant....tis why I keep my minmatar slaves at the end of a lash. 
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slasher99
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Posted - 2010.07.13 00:18:00 -
[63]
Edited by: slasher99 on 13/07/2010 00:23:31
Go read EVE: The Burning Life. It explains the crews on capsuleers ships.
Also, you know when you turn on a module and then you nearly die cause you thought it was on.... yeh thats your crew f*cking up not you forgetting to turn it on so they deserve to die. 
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Y Berion
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.13 00:35:00 -
[64]
 Originally by: Nova Fox
1000 isk per head a month? are you kidding?
12,000 isk will retire an entire family from working another day in thier lives in a upper middle class lower high class status.
Thier salary is probably around 12 isk a month, which converts to a nice subsantial amount to planetary economies.
You really expect that anyone would like to put his life in hands of some crazy pod pilot for 12 ISK, so he could afford around 12 liters of water at the end of the month? Doesn't sound like good deal to me.
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Masamune Kuroda
Caldari
Cerberus Incorporated
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Posted - 2010.07.13 01:28:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Y Berion
You really expect that anyone would like to put his life in hands of some crazy pod pilot for 12 ISK, so he could afford around 12 liters of water at the end of the month? Doesn't sound like good deal to me.
I would imagine space-bound economy is somewhat removed from local economy. After all, all of the goods we trade in are used in space. Individual worlds may well have their own industry supplying them with cheaper, more crude versions of the products used by the space-bound elites.
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Graelyn
Amarr
Deus Imperiosus Acies
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Posted - 2010.07.13 01:39:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Amy Terra
I choose to belive that there are no crew members in a ship
You choose to be wrong.
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Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.07.13 03:03:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Nova Fox on 13/07/2010 03:04:22
Originally by: Y Berion
Originally by: Nova Fox
1000 isk per head a month? are you kidding?
12,000 isk will retire an entire family from working another day in thier lives in a upper middle class lower high class status.
Thier salary is probably around 12 isk a month, which converts to a nice subsantial amount to planetary economies.
You really expect that anyone would like to put his life in hands of some crazy pod pilot for 12 ISK, so he could afford around 12 liters of water at the end of the month? Doesn't sound like good deal to me.
ISK is the currency we use, Caldari could be using dollars, amarr pounds, minmatar shingles, and gallente clams who knows how much isk translates to in planetary currency.
Before PI alot of the planetary markets products where very cheap volumes where definetly different back then as well. 1,000 isk easily would have given me an industrial full of water from the right station. Not in todays case.
Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 24FEB10
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Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Fyretracker Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.13 03:36:00 -
[68]
This cranky Space Traffic Controller told me his stargate was safe and caused 50% less Nausea...
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Mr Elemental
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Posted - 2010.07.13 03:42:00 -
[69]
I just realised i got a lot of people killed under my command 
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Kyra Felann
Gallente
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.13 04:38:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Graelyn
Originally by: Amy Terra
I choose to belive that there are no crew members in a ship
You choose to be wrong.
Exactly. It boggles my mind how many people say "I choose to believe..." or "on my ship...". The setting is defined by CCP, not players. If you want to play in EVE, you should accept the setting as it is, and not cherry-pick the parts you like.
There is plenty of evidence that ships have crews, including direct dev quotes (see my sig). The "argument" is over (and has been for quite some time). Ships have crews. You can't deny it or pretend it's not the case anymore that you can pretend you're an elven wizard that rides a space pony into battle.
-----SIGNATURE-----
Originally by: CCP Ginger
Ships have crews, most pod controlled frigates do not, above that they have crews of varying sizes. Hope that helps.
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Lost Greybeard
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Posted - 2010.07.13 06:59:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Jagga Spikes
Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 12/07/2010 09:13:31
Originally by: Ontaku Oroa
A captain has to know every bolt and every weld on his ship. ;) Skill training is there to help you command your ships more effectively, not to enable you to do every single thing yourself. As someone already said, you need people to clean out space rats from conduits.
...
but if i'm filthy rich, what capsuleers are supposed to be, why i can't hire a command crew, like there is on non-capsuleer ships to drive it for me? i could just safely sit in my pod, and twiddle my thumbs. or something.
it's either that. OR my capsuleer skills actually allow me to cover all aspects of decision making that goes on ship, and all execution is left to AIs, while simple tasks are relegated to simpler programs and robots.
there can't be both. either there is need for crew, or there isn't.
edit: typo
I don't know if you've ever worked with technology (my guess: no) but even a fully automated production plant needs someone to check local readings to make sure they match the computer system's readings, unclog conduits, etc. You're postulating perfect ship design, which does not exist, _especially_ in the future. We had no word for a small but vital flaw (now called a "bug") in a technological system until the later stages of the industrial revolution, and now it's a word pretty much everyone knows. More complexity requires more people to run around making sure everything's running smoothly, all a capsuleer does is remove the middlemen from the process of piloting, he doesn't make the ship magical.
(Exception: a frigate may be simple enough to single-pilot)
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.13 07:11:00 -
[72]
The ones I really feel sorry for are all those millions of crew members who died when players would buy ships and blow them up for insurance fraud. That's the real reason CCP had to implement the insurance change - they were feeling remorseful about the thousands of space janitors getting killed five seconds after their job started.
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Ontaku Oroa
Minmatar
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.13 07:42:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Kyra Felann
Exactly. It boggles my mind how many people say "I choose to believe..." or "on my ship...". The setting is defined by CCP, not players. If you want to play in EVE, you should accept the setting as it is, and not cherry-pick the parts you like.
I think it comes down to the way its done. If a player is hell-bent on having his ship run by robots entirely, the Eve universe is flexible enough to allow him to do that. After all, there really is no inconsistency in that kind of thinking. BUT it has to be accepted that ships do have crew in general and that what he's doing the less efficient, more expensive thing. In other words, he's got a ship full of robots doing stuff, but other people don't (unless they too like the idea) and there really is no point in trying to convince them they do.
Same as some people prefer to pretend they're sitting in a bridge instead of in a goo filled pod. As long as they do it in a logical manner and maintain the suspense of disbelief, its good in my book.
Personally, I buy a lot of "passengers" on the market and place them in the cargo hold of my ship, then multiply by ten or fifty depending whether its "specialists" or just working crew. So one marine is one marine squad of ten, one janitor is fifty rat catchers and so on. That way when one of my ships gets blown up I can get an exact quote of how many crew survived, mount a rescue op and so on. Fun!  The above player can maybe stuff his ship full of robotics, they actually are more expensive than the regular crew. 
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Y Berion
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.13 08:45:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
Food might be an issue, but very few ships stay far away from any station for extended periods of time and even then they often stop by a POS, so enough opportunities to replenish.
You do realize that this might be used as anti-human crew argument as well? Because if we don't hang out in space for too long and can dock anywhere, anytime, then I don't see a reason for taking the crew onboard. I mean, what's there to maintain and clean if you usually spend only few days (hours?) in space before visiting some station/POS again? Which brings another question to daylight - compatibility between our rl and game time: is one rl hour = one hour in game, or we actually have time compression in EVE purely for the sake of gameplay?
Originally by: Kyra Felann
There is plenty of evidence that ships have crews, including direct dev quotes (see my sig). The "argument" is over (and has been for quite some time). Ships have crews.
As said, I know that CCP somewhere, sometime... briefly mentioned that ships have crews and that would be all about it. Human crews are not an ingame factor like in already mentioned Silent Hunter series, where your U-boat performance is directly affected by crew condition and ever changing things like morale, fatique and experience. Human crews in EVE are not even making their appearance in form of mere number on ship's description page, so at the end it all comes down to RP'ing - and somehow I find it more enjoyable and realistic to think that there's no human crew on my ship.
Anyway. It's the inconsistencies and unwritten pages in EVE lore regarding this subject that leave a lot space for us to speculate: for example, it hasn't been explained how the crews are able to survive the flight out of pod; what happens to them when the ship is destroyed; what exactly is their job; why we need so many people considering all fantastic and relatively cheap technologies we have at our disposal; what's the cost of keeping those small armies onboard; what's with (quite believable) scenario of rebellion when crew decides that it might be better to take over the ship, eject that selfish, arogant bastard in pod and then sell his ship to local NPC pirate faction for MUCH more money they could otherwise ever earn serving him; ... and so on.
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Ontaku Oroa
Minmatar
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.13 09:26:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Ontaku Oroa on 13/07/2010 09:28:34
I think the crew would have the same incentive to rebel (or not) as they had in the Age of Sail. In other words, few crews really rebelled because they knew that doing so would sentence them at best to a life of complete exile - they would have to abandon any hope of ever returning to their homes - and at worst a certain death sentence or, if the judge is feeling particularly lenient, a life sentence on a penal colony.
When on the other hand doing a tour of duty would earn them enough money to retire with their families. Not much reason to rebel and abandon all you had and know behind.
As for crew protection, I already said Eve is not based on Newtonian science fiction. Its science fantasy, same as Star Wars. In other words, We Got Gadgets to protect the crew.
Also, check out the Chronicle All These Lives are Fit to Ruin it mentions quite nicely what happens to the crew when a ship goes.
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Y Berion
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.13 10:38:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Y Berion on 13/07/2010 10:40:47
Originally by: Ontaku Oroa
I think the crew would have the same incentive to rebel (or not) as they had in the Age of Sail. In other words, few crews really rebelled because they knew that doing so would sentence them at best to a life of complete exile - they would have to abandon any hope of ever returning to their homes - and at worst a certain death sentence or, if the judge is feeling particularly lenient, a life sentence on a penal colony.
When on the other hand doing a tour of duty would earn them enough money to retire with their families. Not much reason to rebel and abandon all you had and know behind.
I agree but rememeber the average lifespan of one EVE ship (which is pretty short), how incredibly expensive they are (some even for pod pilots), and probability that you, as a crew member, will very likely find yourself in escape pod -or worse- quite soon. Unless, ofc, you were lucky enough to jump aboard some carebear's mission running Marauder or something. So I guess that many of the crews would think about all this, add 1+1 together and eventually try, some with success, to take over the ship, skip all that demi-God crap and sell it to first customer interested. As a pod pilot I'd rather avoid that possibility even if I'd have to pay little more for robots and automated systems who have no fear for their existence and don't appreciate the value of money.
Originally by: Ontaku Oroa
As for crew protection, I already said Eve is not based on Newtonian science fiction. Its science fantasy, same as Star Wars. In other words, We Got Gadgets to protect the crew.
Sure, makes sense, but I'd like to hear more about those gadgets. That's why I said EVE's lore still have quite a lot of blank pages to be written.
Originally by: Ontaku Oroa
Also, check out the Chronicle All These Lives are Fit to Ruin it mentions quite nicely what happens to the crew when a ship goes.
Great link, thanks! Unfortunately I've missed that chronicle. Well, at least it's now pretty clear that ship crews have their escape pods and that it's not true that millions of people are dying every day throughout whole New Eden in their destroyed ships. But in the same time, that fellow capsuleer's story convinced me even more not to ever think about allowing lesser human beings to step into and start messing around with my boat, having certain ideas how to get rid of me
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gobbybobby
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Posted - 2010.07.13 11:35:00 -
[77]
Really gonna think next time my ship goes down. Well I suppose I can just blame the Crew when im not paying attention while mining forget to put out drones and get hulk killed by rats...
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Masurigi
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Posted - 2010.07.13 12:15:00 -
[78]
Hmm... If CCP says so then it must be true. There is a crew.
That doesn't mean it has any sense whatsoever though. I can't imagine what a crew would actually do on board a capsuleer controlled space ship... Everything from repairs to cleaning can be handled by machines by the time Technology reaches Eve Levels.
Nowadays humans in space are considered a risk. They are also expensive to maintain.. Delicate fragile things... Take up ALLOT of space and add pointless mass. What job can they do that a capsuleer and a few machines can't?
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2010.07.13 12:19:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Masurigi
I can't imagine
Found your problem.
Of course you can always keep some 20-50 robotics in your cargo to RP you're not using life crew.
--------
All I want is a better mankind.
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Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
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Posted - 2010.07.13 14:35:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Masurigi
Nowadays humans in space are considered a risk. They are also expensive to maintain.. Delicate fragile things... Take up ALLOT of space and add pointless mass. What job can they do that a capsuleer and a few machines can't?
It's funny. Every single point you make against human crew I can flip around.
Highly autonomous machine systems are considered a risk in the EVE universe, after the whole rogue drone debacle. Not only is there a ban against AI development and a significant widespread taboo surrounding advanced robotics in many parts of space, but an entirely automated ship would be vulnerable to things that human-crewed ships aren't - debilitating computer viruses for example.
A mechanised system designed to replace an entire crew would be ludicrously expensive to maintain. While it's true that it's technically possible to construct automated vessels (there's an example of a science vessel fitted like that in The Empyrean Age), the sheer complexity of the systems, and the astronomical costs of building and servicing a construction like that makes human crews a far better choice from a purely economical standpoint.
Delicate fragile things? Are you saying that a machine crew replacement would be less fragile? As pointed out above, machines have special weaknesses of their own, not to mention the cost that would be involved in creating maintenance devices that are as flexible, resourceful, intelligent, loyal, and durable as humans. The cost of making the inside of the hull habitable is negligible to the cost of developing, constructing and equipping a legion of self-repairing, reactive, creative, intelligent machines.
Humans take up pointless mass? Do you think the machines will be smaller? First of all you will instantly lose the space saved on quarters and food storage by having to house additional power nodes, repair and construction bases, AI relays, etc. And if all that stuff didn't take up all the space you saved, the machines built to replace humans will indubitably be much larger than their fleshy counterparts. And even if you manage to phase out three whole gunnery teams with a single machine that's technically smaller than the combined mass of the humans, you will still need repair machines and maintenance bots to attend to the hunk of metal to figure out what PC Load Letter means.
What job can machines do that a capsuleer and a couple of humans can't (cheaper)?
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.07.13 14:56:00 -
[81]
I have a british phone sex worker perched on my front window, well away from the self destruct button.
My deepest sympathies.
Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Octoven
Amarr
Lupus Draconis
Dragehund
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Posted - 2010.07.13 18:07:00 -
[82]
I'd like to know what all the damn extra space is for if no crew, why even have a bunch of windows? You can't seriously tell me that Nyx mothership or even a titan ship is run by one person. Granted robotics could do a lot and faster but there is just some **** that takes a human touch rather then the cold hand of technology.
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Spades Slick
Caldari
Rookies Academy Elite
Rookie Empire
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Posted - 2010.07.13 18:19:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Octoven
I'd like to know what all the damn extra space is for if no crew, why even have a bunch of windows? You can't seriously tell me that Nyx mothership or even a titan ship is run by one person. Granted robotics could do a lot and faster but there is just some **** that takes a human touch rather then the cold hand of technology.
Fighters and Fighter-Bombers are supposed to have pilots, actually (if you noticed, they don't get bonuses to Drone Skills, which implies that they are drones only as compared to their host ship). So assuming a full flight of F-Bs on MoMs (and ignoring the fact that it can have more in reserve), call it, at the VERY LEAST, 40 people (you can see 2 people in F-Bs)
Of course, even with such visual evidence, people like the above will just be like "yeah well I don't want to think I see little people in the ****pits, and so there aren't in my version of the universe".
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Exploding Tukey
Gallente
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.13 18:21:00 -
[84]
In case of emergency, the crew may be used as ammunition.
<Signature Type="Clever" Width=100% Height=5 Edible="No" /> |
Novantco
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.07.13 18:26:00 -
[85]
Yes they have crews.
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Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Fyretracker Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.13 18:32:00 -
[86]
Automation only goes so far as well, even an automated ship would still need someone to beat the robotic arm with a wrench when it got stuck. and as you advance tech you still would need costly IT people to make sure your guns dont have a BSOD in combat.
think of an automotive assembly line, even with all the robots there are still teams of people working in them and working to keep the robots working. and even if you had robots to fix broken robots, somebody would still have to fix the fixing robots when they got a software glich.
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Y Berion
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.13 19:34:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Y Berion on 13/07/2010 19:34:37
Originally by: Alexeph Stoekai
A mechanised system designed to replace an entire crew would be ludicrously expensive to maintain.
I wonder what "ludicrously expensive" means to you? For example, we have one truly amazing high-tech device known as armor repairer (description: "This module uses nano-assemblers to repair damage done to the armor of the ship", capable to fully recreate 100% destroyed armor out of thin air. Price in Jita today: 800k ISK. So what do you think, what would be the price of much simpler automated systems like gun autoloaders or robotic dust cleaners?
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Phyridean
m3 Corp
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.07.13 22:31:00 -
[88]
Having Crew goes a long way towards explaining module lag...
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Masurigi
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Posted - 2010.07.13 22:54:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Alexeph Stoekai
Originally by: Masurigi
Nowadays humans in space are considered a risk. They are also expensive to maintain.. Delicate fragile things... Take up ALLOT of space and add pointless mass. What job can they do that a capsuleer and a few machines can't?
It's funny. Every single point you make against human crew I can flip around.
Highly autonomous machine systems are considered a risk in the EVE universe, after the whole rogue drone debacle. Not only is there a ban against AI development and a significant widespread taboo surrounding advanced robotics in many parts of space, but an entirely automated ship would be vulnerable to things that human-crewed ships aren't - debilitating computer viruses for example.
A mechanised system designed to replace an entire crew would be ludicrously expensive to maintain. While it's true that it's technically possible to construct automated vessels (there's an example of a science vessel fitted like that in The Empyrean Age), the sheer complexity of the systems, and the astronomical costs of building and servicing a construction like that makes human crews a far better choice from a purely economical standpoint.
Delicate fragile things? Are you saying that a machine crew replacement would be less fragile? As pointed out above, machines have special weaknesses of their own, not to mention the cost that would be involved in creating maintenance devices that are as flexible, resourceful, intelligent, loyal, and durable as humans. The cost of making the inside of the hull habitable is negligible to the cost of developing, constructing and equipping a legion of self-repairing, reactive, creative, intelligent machines.
Humans take up pointless mass? Do you think the machines will be smaller? First of all you will instantly lose the space saved on quarters and food storage by having to house additional power nodes, repair and construction bases, AI relays, etc. And if all that stuff didn't take up all the space you saved, the machines built to replace humans will indubitably be much larger than their fleshy counterparts. And even if you manage to phase out three whole gunnery teams with a single machine that's technically smaller than the combined mass of the humans, you will still need repair machines and maintenance bots to attend to the hunk of metal to figure out what PC Load Letter means.
What job can machines do that a capsuleer and a couple of humans can't (cheaper)?
Clearly if you look at module prices its not that expensive to use technology. Same with drone price an if you consider it would be manufactured into a ship (would be cheaper still) and under the full control of the capsuleer as other drones i don't see a problem in maintaining a few drones to repair. They wouldn't be "autonomous" I am 100% sure that they could do the job more efficient then humans.
I would like to point out that for example most if not all stations use MEDICAL robots instead of real life doctors. And its not only (probably) more affordable to use it it can do the job as efficient as the real ones... Mind you i am assuming that but still.
If machines can do the gentle work of a surgeon (keeping in mind that every human is indeed slightly different so it has to be a complicated machine to work on a biological machine such as us) then why wouldn't they be able to do mechanics and maintenance with the help of the capsuleers mind at command?
Having a crew seems inefficient and a waste of human resources. And what i mean by a waste of space is that to keep a crew you need a living quarters, entertainment, dining area, sleeping area, storage for food and water, systems for cleaning up air and waste... Those would take a allot of space an create allot of useless mass.
Humans are also extremely unreliable. Morale is a factor, endurance is a factor,sickness is a factor,skill is a factor. Machines are less inventive but then as i said you have a capsuleer controling them.
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Masurigi
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Posted - 2010.07.13 23:04:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Abrazzar
Originally by: Masurigi
I can't imagine
Found your problem.
Of course you can always keep some 20-50 robotics in your cargo to RP you're not using life crew.
I found your problem... Instead of giving an example you do a personal attack on me. Don't you have a argument?
Anyway... Imagine how big the Hubble space telescope would have to be to to fit a crew to work it. How expensive it would be to maintain that crew. But then people are smarter then that and made it work automatically with the supervision of a human mind. We have a human mind controlling the ship its called a capsuleer. Why wouldn't the whole ship be run automatically then?
Again its cheaper and easier to send machines to mars then humans... The reason is also the same as above. Humans are fragile creatures that need a specific environment and conditions to survive which are hard to meet. And even then they are far more prone to break down for many reasons that are more often then not unpredictable.
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