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Helgur Steel Soldier's	Posted - 2010.07.12 11:57:00 - [1] Edited by: Helgur on 12/07/2010 11:59:10 I'm not here to whine, well I am actually, but also to give some constructive criticism. I am very tempted to go ballistic because PI had really good potential but have strained my patience to the max. When I log into a game which I pay a subscription for every month I want to have an enjoyable time. Since starting with P.I eve has gone downhill for me. I have subscribed to 3 accounts which I have trained 8 alts for P.I. Thats 40 planets w/ extractors and processors. Doing the 5 hour cycle time I am spending several hours each day just clicking on pixels. It feels like I am wasting my time/life on something ridiculous. What I feel are enjoyable is actually producing goods, planning the logistics etc not this mundane clicking. I am going to produce my last 30.000 units of nanite repair paste for the corp then I am going to leave my planets dead. I was also leading a project within the corp building large amarr towers, I am going to send out a corp mail where I will state my intentions and probably everyone else in my corp is also going to leave this horrible mini game dead, if offcourse CCP doesn't fix it, like implementing a simple mechanic where you can drag/select several extractors and survey/start them at once saving me and other players thousands of man hours clicking pixels. PI is not worth it. I am not wasting several hours a day of my life clicking pixels. Sorry CCP. Edit: FYI all my alts have trained Planetology to lvl 4 and Advanced planetology to lvl 3
Vilgan Mazran Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.07.12 12:25:00 - [2] are you doing the complete chain for repair paste? You do realize you are throwing isk/time/whatever away doing that right? Ingredients for repair paste cost 3x as much as the paste itself. Or is it the "minerals I mine are free!" concept again because its "for corp!"?
Helgur Steel Soldier's	Posted - 2010.07.12 12:39:00 - [3] Edited by: Helgur on 12/07/2010 12:46:46 You are missing the point I am making entirely. My point is no matter what you do there is way too much needless clicking with P.I. My point is the UI is forcing the player to waste hours which would otherwise be saved if CCP put some more effort into polishing Tyrannis a bit. But as it stands I am quite sure the devs already are working on the next expansion and put this one behind them. This offcourse follows the usual CCP trend with expansions.
Lutz Major Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo	Posted - 2010.07.12 13:00:00 - [4] Originally by: Helgur Edited by: Helgur on 12/07/2010 12:46:46 You are missing the point I am making entirely. My point is no matter what you do there is way too much needless clicking with P.I. My point is the UI is forcing the player to waste hours which would otherwise be saved if CCP put some more effort into polishing Tyrannis a bit. But as it stands I am quite sure the devs already are working on the next expansion and put this one behind them. This offcourse follows the usual CCP trend with expansions. Love it, leave it or change it (also 'break it' is valid ) I read your original post and yes: I don't care, if another one makes the click-fest. If you think you are wasting time, why don't you just leave it be? And let someone else make the paste? Do something, that generates more income (if you are after money) or something that is more fun!
Helgur Steel Soldier's	Posted - 2010.07.12 13:04:00 - [5] My post was about how CCP could make the process 10x more time efficient by implementing some simple fixes, not asking for advice on what to do/not to do with PI. But thank you for stating the obvious.
Lutz Major Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo	Posted - 2010.07.12 13:13:00 - [6] Originally by: Helgur My post was about how CCP could make the process 10x more time efficient by implementing some simple fixes, not asking for advice on what to do/not to do with PI. But thank you for stating the obvious. You are welcome. And I don't find any suggestions in your posts, how CCP could make PI '10x more time efficient'. I just see whining, that you need hours and hours after hours of clicky, clicky, clicky. If you have real proposals go to Features and Ideas or to the Assembly Hall. ...not that it would change anything.
Helgur Steel Soldier's	Posted - 2010.07.12 13:39:00 - [7] Then you need to take your reading glasses on, let me quote my suggestion since you obviously have trouble reading a post with more than 8 sentances: Quote: if offcourse CCP doesn't fix it, like implementing a simple mechanic where you can drag/select several extractors and survey/start them at once saving me and other players thousands of man hours clicking pixels.
Lutz Major Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo	Posted - 2010.07.12 13:52:00 - [8] No, I read that. But: Originally by: Lutz Major If you have real proposals go to Features and Ideas or to the Assembly Hall.
Grozen Caldari Titan Core New Eden Research.	Posted - 2010.07.12 14:19:00 - [9] i'm worn out too but i keep doing it just because its the only way to make sure i have enough of everything i need.If more people like you quit prices just might reach good lvls for ppl to do this. knowledge is power
Helgur Steel Soldier's	Posted - 2010.07.12 14:26:00 - [10] Follow up
Nobzy	Posted - 2010.07.12 14:31:00 - [11] Edited by: Nobzy on 12/07/2010 14:33:38 Edited by: Nobzy on 12/07/2010 14:32:00 You are looking at the problem the wrong way. PI was intended to be a long chain of production with loadsa steps to the end product (assuming you're after the bigger fishes and not just coolant or something). This means that CCP tried to force people to accept a part of their choosing along the production line. The problem is actually you trying to be the entire production line. The problem is not the time consuming nature of PI, but the greedy nature of the player. PI was intended to be low profit, low entry-bar income maker for newer players (hence the low skill requirements). When an experienced player ventures off from his complete start to finish T2 production line, he assumes he can just do the same with PI, do everything himself. If you, and all your buddies accept that IT'S-NOT-VIABLE, and use PI as it was designed, you will notice there is no problem. You are just going against the design, thinking the design is flawed, when it's your approach to it. My god I've written this almost exact responce to 3 threads last week alone, I should really copy paste this somewhere. Stop running 40 planets, and instead run 4 planets. Maybe set up so that your corp buddies (other than your alts) also run 4 planets, it's casual and maybe even fun.
Alaylia Elow	Posted - 2010.07.12 14:58:00 - [12] I'm seeing a common theme among those who complain about the click fest, and that's multi-accounts with dozens of planets. Sounds like a user generated problem.
Helgur Steel Soldier's	Posted - 2010.07.12 15:15:00 - [13] Originally by: Nobzy Edited by: Nobzy on 12/07/2010 14:33:38 Edited by: Nobzy on 12/07/2010 14:32:00 You are looking at the problem the wrong way. PI was intended to be a long chain of production with loadsa steps to the end product (assuming you're after the bigger fishes and not just coolant or something). This means that CCP tried to force people to accept a part of their choosing along the production line. The problem is actually you trying to be the entire production line. The problem is not the time consuming nature of PI, but the greedy nature of the player. PI was intended to be low profit, low entry-bar income maker for newer players (hence the low skill requirements). Please cite CCP where they say that planetary interaction is mainly "low profit, low entry-bar income maker for newer players". There are a lot of game dependent items that previously where seeded by NPC that now are left over to the devices of PI manufacturing. I highly doubt CCP intended the production and market for those items to be mainly driven by newer players. Originally by: Nobzy You are just going against the design, thinking the design is flawed, when it's your approach to it. When you cite me where the clicking process individually of every processor is a deliberate mechanic implemented by CCP to prevent "over production" from individuals, I will believe you. Until then it appears you are just making stuff up as you go.
ZeeOhSix Blackwater Manufacturing and Logistics	Posted - 2010.07.12 15:46:00 - [14] Originally by: Nobzy PI was intended to be low profit, low entry-bar income maker for newer players. I agreed with everything in your post; I'm doing some PI and having a ball with it just for the novelty. I'm not as confident your comment above will stay the case when Dust 514 enters the picture. I'd expect at that point that it would become like most scenarios in EVE where it takes ISK to make ISK. The business of EVE is business!
Veneth	Posted - 2010.07.12 16:27:00 - [15] Originally by: Alaylia Elow I'm seeing a common theme among those who complain about the click fest, and that's multi-accounts with dozens of planets. Sounds like a user generated problem. /thread
LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2010.07.12 16:46:00 - [16] Originally by: Helgur Please cite CCP where they say that planetary interaction is mainly "low profit, low entry-bar income maker for newer players". There are a lot of game dependent items that previously where seeded by NPC that now are left over to the devices of PI manufacturing. I highly doubt CCP intended the production and market for those items to be mainly driven by newer players. It is possible to infer the intention from the low barriers to entry. Low barriers to entry = low ISK per hour. Since the primary driver of time in this case is the clickfest that is restarting extractors, it is possible to infer that is the intended mechanic for limiting player involvement. Prices fall to the point that people stop doing the clickfest... ie. the profit per time spent clicking the extractors is so small that people stop doing it and prices stop falling.
Wyke Mossari Gallente Staner Industries	Posted - 2010.07.12 18:07:00 - [17] Originally by: LHA Tarawa Originally by: Helgur Please cite CCP where they say that planetary interaction is mainly "low profit, low entry-bar income maker for newer players". There are a lot of game dependent items that previously where seeded by NPC that now are left over to the devices of PI manufacturing. I highly doubt CCP intended the production and market for those items to be mainly driven by newer players. It is possible to infer the intention from the low barriers to entry. Low barriers to entry = low ISK per hour. Since the primary driver of time in this case is the clickfest that is restarting extractors, it is possible to infer that is the intended mechanic for limiting player involvement. Prices fall to the point that people stop doing the clickfest... ie. the profit per time spent clicking the extractors is so small that people stop doing it and prices stop falling. A low barrier to entry does not precluded plenty of head room for growth. It should be clear from the value/cost of Advanced Commodities. Input components at 100k a pop are not the realm of newbies, but high end industrialists. Every item in PI is an essential component of Eve's Industrial base. There is no redundancy in the system. PI is an essential activity. Essential for sovereignty structures, Essential for maintaining POS, Essential for building new POS. The dependence of POS on PI make it a keystone for Invention, for moon mining, for T2 Production. PI component are required at high volumes and with increasing regularity as stocks are consumed. Demand can only increase. It should be clear that PI cannot abandoned to newbies. However the clickfest is so tedious that the majority players who gave it a go are abandoning it. So production is declining. The other problem, the elephant in the room that nobody seems prepared to talk about is a direct consequence of this. PI is obviously designed to be horizontally integrated industry. However unless somebody takes on the burden the tedious extraction, industrialists are defacto forced to vertically integrate to obtain their raw materials.
LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2010.07.12 18:21:00 - [18] Originally by: Wyke Mossari low barrier to entry does not precluded plenty of head room for growth. It should be clear from the value/cost of Advanced Commodities. Input components at 100k a pop are not the realm of newbies, but high end industrialists. A noob can drop down on a few high sec planets with a couple weeks training and be creating a few P4 a day. Couple million isk a day for 15 min click fest and some moving around of goods.... Not bad. Move that noob into a low-sec or 0.0 corp and he's making a P4 component every hour. 20-30 million ISK a day from a 15 min clickfest and some moving around of goods = win for noob. Originally by: Wyke Mossari It should be clear that PI cannot abandoned to newbies. However the clickfest is so tedious that the majority players who gave it a go are abandoning it. So production is declining. If this is true, then why do prices continue to fall? Prices of most P3 and P4 are in freefall, as are many completed structures. 2 weeks ago I went to buy a couple arrays only to find they were 80 million ISK each. In the 2 weeks it took me build a PI infrastructure and everything for the arrays from extract up the price has fallen to sub 60 million. If a tedious clickfest was enough to drive everyone out of industrial careers, then there were be no one in any industrial field. Originally by: Wyke Mossari The other problem, the elephant in the room that nobody seems prepared to talk about is a direct consequence of this. PI is obviously designed to be horizontally integrated industry. However unless somebody takes on the burden the tedious extraction, industrialists are defacto forced to vertically integrate to obtain their raw materials. And someone has to do the mining in T1 manufacturing... oh, that's right. Everyone has 'bots out doing that tedious chore. So, your complaint is what? There aren't 'bots out macro-extracting P1 prices into the ground yet?
illy velo Gallente	Posted - 2010.07.12 18:55:00 - [19] Originally by: Vilgan Mazran are you doing the complete chain for repair paste? You do realize you are throwing isk/time/whatever away doing that right? Ingredients for repair paste cost 3x as much as the paste itself. Or is it the "minerals I mine are free!" concept again because its "for corp!"? THIS... For me at least, extracting the material and refining to P1 is the most profitable way to go about PI. I found when making "Construction Blocks" the sale price per unit was well under 40% of the ISK you could make selling the parts that went into making them. I agree the OP is trying to do the whole supply chain and feeling the pain. On the "User generated problem" front, switch to 24 hour cycles and it all becomes far less tedious. 30 minute cycles reward those that can stand the mind numbing click fest as much as 24 hour cycles reward those who can't. PI is what you make it, evolve or quit doing it, I don't care either way...
Chomondeley	Posted - 2010.07.12 19:28:00 - [20] Edited by: Chomondeley on 12/07/2010 19:29:14 Originally by: Alaylia Elow I'm seeing a common theme among those who complain about the click fest, and that's multi-accounts with dozens of planets. Sounds like a user generated problem. QFT!..My sentiments exactly and here's why... I have 1 char doing PI ..and loving it, Yes its a bit of a clickfest, but tbh its been a massive learning curve and I've had fun, will it return a profit ?...probably, who cares, but I've had fun and now after 3 re-hashes have a decent, efficient and (potentialy) a profitable setup by focusing on just a couple of lines instead of trying to get everything. It has taken time to get to this stage and now I can log on, Click a (few)-(Seperate Issue) Buttons and continue building my wares. Allowing me to get on with the more serious side of internet spaceships. Focus on just a couple of lines, Get that right and your golden. Also, Protip - Dont put a Pizza in the oven, Thinking you can just "Update Your PI" ...It can seriously ruin your Dinner.
Wyke Mossari Gallente Staner Industries	Posted - 2010.07.12 19:50:00 - [21] Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 12/07/2010 19:52:57 Originally by: LHA Tarawa Originally by: Wyke Mossari low barrier to entry does not precluded plenty of head room for growth. It should be clear from the value/cost of Advanced Commodities. Input components at 100k a pop are not the realm of newbies, but high end industrialists. A noob can drop down on a few high sec planets with a couple weeks training and be creating a few P4 a day. Couple million isk a day for 15 min click fest and some moving around of goods.... Not bad. Move that noob into a low-sec or 0.0 corp and he's making a P4 component every hour. 20-30 million ISK a day from a 15 min clickfest and some moving around of goods = win for noob. I think you're missing my point. I'm not questioning the low barrier to entry. I questioning the assumption that a low entry point it automatically causes a low ceiling. I have planets with no extractors, a dozen or more advanced processors clustered around a starport. I am horizontally integrated, I churning out as many P4 in an hour as the vertically integrated newbie will in a day. Originally by: LHA Tarawa Originally by: Wyke Mossari It should be clear that PI cannot abandoned to newbies. However the clickfest is so tedious that the majority players who gave it a go are abandoning it. So production is declining. If this is true, then why do prices continue to fall? Prices of most P3 and P4 are in freefall, as are many completed structures. I'm also looking at the trade volume of P1, it peaked last week. The price of high-end PI components is largely being driven down by over supply from NPC stocks. Originally by: LHA Tarawa And someone has to do the mining in T1 manufacturing... oh, that's right. Everyone has 'bots out doing that tedious chore. So, your complaint is what? There aren't 'bots out macro-extracting P1 prices into the ground yet? I have no complaint, I was trying to have a sensible discussion about the PI industrial environment.
I SoStoned Caldari	Posted - 2010.07.12 20:56:00 - [22] Originally by: Lutz Major ...not that it would change anything. Sadly, QFT. I, for one, utterly despise PI. It's the most tedious broken feature in Eve, bar none (and there are many). Unfortunately if you want to remain even remotely competitive in the market you're forced into it regardless of your desires. Looks like another T2 production corp is going to be removed from competition because of CCP's poor implementation of new features. --- Dreamer: My dream, Freddy! MY RULES. Freddy Kruger: groans Awwwww, f**k. --- Never give up!
LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2010.07.12 21:02:00 - [23] Originally by: Wyke Mossari I think you're missing my point. I'm not questioning the low barrier to entry. I questioning the assumption that a low entry point it automatically causes a low ceiling. I have planets with no extractors, a dozen or more advanced processors clustered around a starport. I am horizontally integrated, I churning out as many P4 in an hour as the vertically integrated newbie will in a day. What makes you think, that with a week or two of PI experience, that noob wouldn't be abel to figure out the "extractor planet/processor planet" methodology? Took me a couple days. Once he streamlines his operation as you have, he matches you. Enough noobs do that (and risk low sec to do it), instead of (or more likely, in additon to) mining in a destroyer or running L1s, or manufacturing ammo, and it should supply plenty of planet resources to the market.
LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2010.07.12 21:08:00 - [24] I just don't get it. Take the tedium of an hour or two of mining, ice mining, orders manipulations, kicking off research jobs, etc. Shrink it down into 10-15 minutes of restarting extractors.... Is it REALLY more tedious to spend 15 minutes resarting extractros than 2 hours of mining? Or is the tedium just more compressed into less real world time? If the latter, then would it be better if you had to wait 2 minutes between extractor starts (like it takes multiple minutes between picking new rocks to mine) so that it took 2 hours instead of 10-15 minutes? Or, is the real problem that you don't have illegal bots to do the grind work like we have for mining?
Ivorr Bigun	Posted - 2010.07.12 22:14:00 - [25] Originally by: LHA Tarawa Or, is the real problem that you don't have illegal bots to do the grind work like we have for mining? The real problem is that the drop-out rate is going to go through the roof. Profit for new players or not CCP have finally found something more tedious than the learning skills. Hows that for new player experience? Brilliant you say - drop-out rate goes through roof - more profit for me! Except this is the most short-sighted view you could bring to the table. As a famous literary character once said "dont they teach logic in schools any more?" Logic: 1.Players try PI. 2.Players largely quit PI. 3.Small numbers of players make large profits from high PI prices. 4.High PI prices drive up production of pretty much everything. 5.Players cant afford to buy anything. 6.players quit. Now somewhere along that logic chain you could add "profit becomes large enough to make players re-enter PI." This I concede as truth. However you are now talking about people who walked away. Their entry barrier is substantially higher so you are still at 4. Now assuming that my logic is in some way flawed lets get back to your bots shall we? At this point in time is the incentive higher for bots to do PI or players? I mean once the colony is up and running you are talking about players "repeating a task that involves pointing and clicking several hundred times." That to me sounds pretty much like the definition of a bot. Im pretty sure thats why we got round to building computers/robots/machinery in the first place. I would argue that the current implementation is encouraging bots. As such my little chain of logic means nothing because all I see is a PI system full of macros. Its going to be so much easier for CCP to identify macros in PI isnt it? "The player appeared to be pointing and clicking many hundreds of times a day, and always the same pattern!" A 'fixed' PI will still be full of bots but at least lets level the playing field so players can still pull some income from the sea of bots. Originally by: CCP Shadow bodily fluid
Xereyn	Posted - 2010.07.12 22:47:00 - [26] Originally by: Wyke Mossari The other problem, the elephant in the room that nobody seems prepared to talk about is a direct consequence of this. PI is obviously designed to be horizontally integrated industry. However unless somebody takes on the burden the tedious extraction, industrialists are defacto forced to vertically integrate to obtain their raw materials. Perhaps people don't talk about it because it's not "obviously" true. To me PI seems pretty clearly designed for vertical integration, especially given that almost every P2 and a number of P3 and even P4 products can be produced using materials from only a single planet. This is completely fine. You only generate a problem when you try to be able to produce EVERYTHING yourself. This results in either inefficient processes, which means you will produce slowly and erratically, or a massive, multi-account tedious clickfest. Honestly, I thought I was overdoing it because I have ten planets across two characters - but I'm not bored of PI, actually. I will tell you my Don't Be Bored By PI secret free and gratis for nothing: If you don't feel like doing it on a given day, don't. This is a GAME, if you're not having fun you're DOING IT WRONG. And prioritise! I run my PI network to keep myself in POS fuel and have a sideline on certain goods for profit; Robotics are the hardest to generate, so some days I'll kick-start my Plasma planets and ignore the rest. I have fun! I have fuel! Life is good.
Olleybear I R' Carebear	Posted - 2010.07.13 02:49:00 - [27] I'm going to side with the OP on this. The clickfest is ridiculous and has driven me out of PI completely. I do enjoy making stuff. For some reason it makes me smile when I make something in game. The thought of PI itself is fun. However, clicking on every single extractor on a single gas planet dedicated to making oxygen is annoying as hell. Making the stuff is enjoyable, clickety clikcety clickety x all extractors is not. I currently have a total of 10 CC's on both characters and left the advanced/elite CC's to rot on the planets. All because of the extractor clickfest. Doing the leg work of finding the right planet with the resources I need closer together, looking at the wonderfull PI pdf that is in the stickies and working out what planet combinations I can use to make something, setting up the PI infrustructure itself, and even scanning the system to make sure nothing is sitting on the customs office waiting to gank me, are all enjoyable activities. Its the clickfest of restarting all of the extractors that is not enjoyable. That single feature is what many many people are complaining about. Half of my old 0.0 corp has already quit PI because of that 'feature'. For a comparison, imagine flying your ship in pvp and having to click each gun everytime you wanted to fire. Boy, wouldn't that suck. The clickfest of restarting PI extractors needs changed.
Gwen Ingolffson	Posted - 2010.07.13 03:19:00 - [28] I don't mine so much for PI materials - I just hunt PI material convoys and pop them (the NPC ones) Verrrry profitable, once you learn how. Much less clicking. :)
siC0 b0b	Posted - 2010.07.13 04:14:00 - [29] IDK about threads like these. You often go on a roam in lowsec and find nothing for 10 hours, it takes forever to research a BPO (let alone find a space for it) and train skills to be able to manufacture anything even longer to be effective at it, it'll take you alot of skill to be able to get income from invention or r&d and invention is chance based, no certrain income. Skipping the fact that other industry philars require constant isk invest to make your profit. I mean, when you break it down it's all just clicking buttons, and i don't think CCP really designed PI to be used by 10 alts. If you go mental like this then you're commiting to effort of making serious money out of PI so just take it, you asked for it. PI requires one time invest into structures and it'll **** money 'till you die. It's a stable, constant and pretty safe income, so you have to pay for it 'least somehow. If you like playing 1 hour a day and making a bil then either do Trade and try your luck or go explore in null, one day you'll get a decent drop.
Patri Andari Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer	Posted - 2010.07.13 04:30:00 - [30] Originally by: Gwen Ingolffson I don't mine so much for PI materials - I just hunt PI material convoys and pop them (the NPC ones) Verrrry profitable, once you learn how. Much less clicking. :) Shush you! Patri I'll Roshambo you for that Titan

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